Man U v Southampton

Man U player gets their foot to the ball before Southampton player kicks his foot, just like Jimenez v Pieters last week.

VAR check - this week it’s not a penalty.

Gotta love how VAR is taking wrong decisions out of the game and introducing consistency.

They were discussing the pen against us on Soccer Saturday and they thought it should have been overturned.

Darthlaw wrote:Man U v Southampton

Man U player gets their foot to the ball before Southampton player kicks his foot, just like Jimenez v Pieters last week.

VAR check - this week it’s not a penalty.

Gotta love how VAR is taking wrong decisions out of the game and introducing consistency.

VAR does not aim to take the wrong decisions out of the game. It is there to prevent any clear and obvious mistakes the ref makes (like when we got a penalty against Swansea after hitting Vokes hand). The exceptions to this are offside decision and when a handball leads directly to a goal.

Now feel free to dislike it (im not a fan) and slag it off but please try and understand it first as it helps you make a more coherent argument

Here's the point - no such thing as binary "right" and "wrong" decisions in football with a few exceptions like offside.

Last week's penalty is an excellent example - if the ref decides the striker has made a meal of it, that's a legitimate decision. If he decides it's a penalty, it's a legitimate decision. Unfortunately, it went against us, but it wasn't an error by the ref.

If that decision was analysed last year I am convinced that it would be used as another justification for the introduction of VAR to overturn these soft and subjective decisions. Application of VAR is not right yet and we are still left feeling aggrieved by penalty decisions.

Issue for me is I don't think the ref gives the jiminez penalty without knowing he can refer to VAR.

AND I think if it wasn't given live VAR wouldn't have overturned it.

But its one of them, can see why it was given and if it was Barnes I'd be screaming for it.

Devils_Advocate wrote:VAR does not aim to take the wrong decisions out of the game. It is there to prevent any clear and obvious mistakes the ref makes (like when we got a penalty against Swansea after hitting Vokes hand). The exceptions to this are offside decision and when a handball leads directly to a goal.

Now feel free to dislike it (im not a fan) and slag it off but please try and understand it first as it helps you make a more coherent argument

So what you’re saying is that a penalty according to one referee is not to another but VAR is there to clear the obvious mistake of each when interpreted as a mistake. The argument being the issue of consistency between two decisions a week apart.

Clear as mud, though, thanks.

To be clear on my part, I thought it was a penalty last week, to make a different call this week when using VAR is baffling/frustrating.

Darthlaw wrote:Man U v Southampton

Man U player gets their foot to the ball before Southampton player kicks his foot, just like Jimenez v Pieters last week.

VAR check - this week it’s not a penalty.

Gotta love how VAR is taking wrong decisions out of the game and introducing consistency.

This is the problem. Identical incidents both should have been a penalty. Only one was. Var is a joke

Darthlaw wrote:So what you’re saying is that a penalty according to one referee is not to another but VAR is there to clear the obvious mistake of each when interpreted as a mistake. The argument being the issue of consistency between two decisions a week apart.

Clear as mud, though, thanks.

To be clear on my part, I thought it was a penalty last week, to make a different call this week when using VAR is baffling/frustrating.

These decisions are subjective to the extent opposing managers, supporters and the media can never agree on most decisions so refs are always the scape goats for one set of people.

In a subjective arena you cannot get consistency across different games with different officials and that is just something people need to realise. Sometimes when the ref makes an absolute howler everyone agrees the decision is wrong and this is where Var comes in

Last season when it was used to make decisions regardless of the refs initial call most fans were moaning when close decisions were overturned making a point about the clear and obvious error rule. This year when the Prem League have stayed close to that original guiding the same people are now moaning that Var isnt being used to change these close calls

This is one of the reasons I have been consistently against it except my view is to trust that we get the best refs we can who are honest and have integrity but accept that with the speed of the game and the amount of cameras and focus refs will always get things wrong.

Instead of blaming our teams poor performance and bad results on the refs we should look more inward. My mantra has always been the day you can stand the two opposing managers together at the end of a game, show them the key and contentious decision and get them to agree on it then and only then have a go at the ref.

As for being clear as mud the Premier League have been massively clear and transparent on exactly how VAR will be used and they spent massive amounts of time going around managers, players, the media etc to discuss and make sure everyone knows how it will be used

Seems to me your issue is a combination of being butt hurt that we got on the wrong side of a 50/50 call and not being able to comprehend that it will always be impossible for different people and different situations to be judged in a fully consistent manner

Devils_Advocate wrote:Seems to me your issue is a combination of being butt hurt that we got on the wrong side of a 50/50 call and not being able to comprehend that it will always be impossible for different people and different situations to be judged in a fully consistent manner

Darthlaw wrote:To be clear on my part, I thought it was a penalty last week,

Seems to me you can’t read. As such there’s little point continuing dialogue with you.

Darthlaw wrote:Seems to me you can’t read. As such there’s little point continuing dialogue with you.

Apologies I hold my hands up and accept I was wrong on that last part

The only problem with VAR is that the refs, who are crap in the middle, are equally as crap when in the booth.
Man U should have had a pen at Saints when Greenwood toed the ball and the Saint then kicked his foot. Would have been soft but was a pen
Thielemanns should have had a red for going over the top on Wilson but none was given on review.
Although not reviewable Wilson was booked for diving. He clearly tripped himself up accidentally. Easily done at the pace he moves.
They are an embarrassment.

The problem with penalties isn't VAR. The problem is that so many people, including referees, have forgotten what a foul is supposed to look like. Count the incidents today when there was not a lot of contact and a player sprawled on the floor - was a foul given? Usually, yes. And count the times that there was contact but not a lot and the player didn't sprawl on the floor - how many fouls were given? Very few.

The game forty or fifty years ago had a different set of problems, Leeds United being the epitome of them. But one problem it did not have was the idea that if two players touch and one of them screams in fake agony and rolls on the floor crying his eyes out, that he has been fouled. VAR forty-fifty years ago, had it existed, would certainly have ruled out Jiminez's dive.

They were talking today about whether Grealish dived. One man thought he had dived; the other thought he hadn't because there was a slight contact. THIS IS WHAT IS WRONG!!! How can an ordinary rational person think that the slightest touch followed by a dive (and it was a dive) is any different from the slightest touch followed by nothing? If they want to give a free kick every time a player touches another, then say so. But don't make it dependent on cheating, diving, lying baby footballers. The game is refereed at the moment in such a way as to ensure that cheats get the best of it. And the FA and FIFA bigwigs don't care as long as they get their money, they get their free tickets, they get their prestige, and no-one rocks their cosy little boat.

I’m more upset now.
I had CP v Villa for 1-1 on me super6. I’m 5 points light.

For the sake of football Scrap VAR.

Tricky Trevor wrote:I’m more upset now.
I had CP v Villa for 1-1 on me super6. I’m 5 points light.

Shocking decision at Palace.....

Palace decision was Grealish's own fault. He jerks and falls unnaturally.

Devils_Advocate wrote:VAR does not aim to take the wrong decisions out of the game. It is there to prevent any clear and obvious mistakes the ref makes (like when we got a penalty against Swansea after hitting Vokes hand). The exceptions to this are offside decision and when a handball leads directly to a goal.

Now feel free to dislike it (im not a fan) and slag it off but please try and understand it first as it helps you make a more coherent argument

Whilst I agree with your broader point, why would VAR have prevented Vokes getting a penalty under the previous handball laws?

Tricky Trevor wrote:I’m more upset now.
I had CP v Villa for 1-1 on me super6. I’m 5 points light.

Snap so did i,it's bonkers that because the ref blew VAR couldn't get involved,i don't often agree with Gary Lineker but he's right what is the point of VAR when they are clearly not going to overrule the on-field decisions,now you can argue those incidents are subjective fair enough.

What's not subjective is the 'handball'in the build-up to Newcastle's equaliser,it's been clearly spelt out that handball whether accidental or not which leads to a goal being scored will see the goal disallowed,please somebody explain the difference between the Newcastle incident,and the Wolves and Man City goals by Dendoncker and Jesus,i knew this ruling would create controversy,and sooner or later a goal would be allowed,if they can't even get this right what chance for the borderline stuff.

quoonbeatz wrote:Palace decision was Grealish's own fault. He jerks and falls unnaturally.

Course he did... Bit like the fella at wolves last week.but in doing so jack still managed to pass the ball.

Rileybobs wrote:Whilst I agree with your broader point, why would VAR have prevented Vokes getting a penalty under the previous handball laws?

Because Vokes handled the ball but we got the penalty. A clear error that would have been overturned under VAR review.

It’d be nice if similar incidents resulted in similar results. Every week we will see inconsistency because of the refs decision. If you are going to waste time in the game looking at a video at least get same results for similar incidents when you do. Clear and obvious ref error is nonsense as the incident needs to be reffed by the VAR on the decision being reviewed and not left as what was decided by the guy who saw it once on the field (or didn’t see it and guessed). Clear and obvious decision from the VAR is the only way to get consistency

1fatclaret wrote:Because Vokes handled the ball but we got the penalty. A clear error that would have been overturned under VAR review.

But Vokes didn’t handle the ball deliberately so under the old handball law it wasn’t handball.

Rileybobs wrote:But Vokes didn’t handle the ball deliberately so under the old handball law it wasn’t handball.

No but the ref gave handball against Swansea not against Vokes. He got the players arms mixed up which was a clear error

Devils_Advocate wrote:No but the ref gave handball against Swansea not against Vokes. He got the players arms mixed up which was a clear error

Ah, got you.

Phil Thompson has it spot on for me. My own view is that it's going to ruin the game, the sooner they scrap it the better.

Rileybobs wrote:But Vokes didn’t handle the ball deliberately so under the old handball law it wasn’t handball.

The referee thought he saw a handball by a Swansea player.

As I understand it, this is the key thing about VAR overturning referee's decisions. If the referee's description of what he saw is consistent with the video footage they go with the referee's decision whether the VAR team think it's correct or not.

dsr wrote:The problem with penalties isn't VAR. The problem is that so many people, including referees, have forgotten what a foul is supposed to look like. Count the incidents today when there was not a lot of contact and a player sprawled on the floor - was a foul given? Usually, yes. And count the times that there was contact but not a lot and the player didn't sprawl on the floor - how many fouls were given? Very few.

The game forty or fifty years ago had a different set of problems, Leeds United being the epitome of them. But one problem it did not have was the idea that if two players touch and one of them screams in fake agony and rolls on the floor crying his eyes out, that he has been fouled. VAR forty-fifty years ago, had it existed, would certainly have ruled out Jiminez's dive.

They were talking today about whether Grealish dived. One man thought he had dived; the other thought he hadn't because there was a slight contact. THIS IS WHAT IS WRONG!!! How can an ordinary rational person think that the slightest touch followed by a dive (and it was a dive) is any different from the slightest touch followed by nothing? If they want to give a free kick every time a player touches another, then say so. But don't make it dependent on cheating, diving, lying baby footballers. The game is refereed at the moment in such a way as to ensure that cheats get the best of it. And the FA and FIFA bigwigs don't care as long as they get their money, they get their free tickets, they get their prestige, and no-one rocks their cosy little boat.

I said this yesterday. There was an incident where Matip who must be six foot six Wes brushed and he went down in agony. Mane and Henderson were also guilty.

I said imagine someone brushing you like that in a busy pub and you went down and stayed down like that.
Mits embarrassing.

Neil Swarbrick did a very good interview on VAR before the season began. Now I'd like him to do another one explaining all the appalling mistakes that have been made by the VAR refs.

There's nothing wrong with VAR, it's the fact that we've still got awful refs watching the video replays and not overturning awful decisions made by the awful refs on the pitch.

Just seen the Haller one. VAR becomes more of a joke every week. Definite pen not given. Crackers

quoonbeatz wrote:Palace decision was Grealish's own fault. He jerks and falls unnaturally.

Sorry but that’s nonsense.

Like Jenas said it is one of the worst decisions you are likely to see, that VAR is supposed to solve.

Let’s see what Dermot has to say on Monday...VAR is like having seat belts in a car and not wearing them and expecting it to save you in a car crash

Hibsclaret wrote:Sorry but that’s nonsense.

Like Jenas said it is one of the worst decisions you are likely to see, that VAR is supposed to solve.

Let’s see what Dermot has to say on Monday...VAR is like having seat belts in a car and not wearing them and expecting it to save you in a car crash

Haha. Dermot Gallagher. Will shamelessly lie to an entire TV audience to defend the referee’s alliance. The ref has either got it right or he didn’t have a clear view so couldn’t award a decision so still got it right. Awful person.

Was there any football played this weekend or was it just VAR reviews?

VAR is now harmful. It is used to reveal shoulder blades and support referees, in matter what. Worse than pointless in the hands of referees.

Believe it or not it’s even worse in the rest of Europe.

In the Lille game just now there was a pen given after at least 4 minutes of messing about... never a pen for me or any of the commentators. It doesn’t look like they have the clear and obvious rule and still mess it up

If refs understood the game better we’d have half a chance tbh. Dermot thought the Kane one last week wasn’t a pen on his insightful Monday morning review on Sky. Although he said he thought it was at first...therefore, the irony is if he had reffed the game he would have given the pen, it couldn’t have been overturned by VAR cos it wouldn’t have been a clear and obvious error. The game would have potentially had a different result and he would have been convinced afterwards that it was a mistake and shouldn’t have been a penalty......

They understand the laws but not the game..it is a real shambles

dsr wrote:How can an ordinary rational person think that the slightest touch followed by a dive (and it was a dive) is any different from the slightest touch

Agree wholeheartedly with the entirety of your post, except on Grealish. I thought at the very least they should have had a free kick.

There was one foul where one player touched (and I mean touched) another players shoulder and his legs collapsed.

I can’t think of a single time where I’ve been touched on my shoulder, either playing football or generally going about my business, and have ended up sprawled on the floor.

VAR should be used as a record of many times footballers defy the laws of gravity and then present them with a yellow card at the start of the next game. Maybe they could play a batch of 5 instances on the big screen before the match to show what cheats they are to everyone.

I think VAR on penalties will support the refs decision unless he has clearly on VAR got it wrong eg contact when on VAR no contact. Last week the ref saw contact and gave a pen. This week similar story but ref thought no pen and VAR allowed both decisions so consistency is not better except it will remain inconsistent.
Poor Villa yesterday denied an equaliser as the ref thought the Villa lad Greally had dived passing the ball to the player who scored. Villa lose a point Palace get two extra points and those could cost Villa and save Palace come May 2020 to the tune of at least £100million.

Hibsclaret wrote:Sorry but that’s nonsense.

Like Jenas said it is one of the worst decisions you are likely to see, that VAR is supposed to solve.

It isn't though.

Very similar situation for the spurs penalty today. Son passes successfully but then gets taken out so the ref gives a foul pen. Grealish passes successfully but falls theatrically, so it goes the other way.

Moral is: don't fall down like you're looking for a penalty.

VAR couldn't reverse the Grealish one anyway as the whistle went before the shot.

Bumping this thread.

Happy the VAR went our way today, but it was a shambles how it happened. Would have been annoyed if I was a Villa fan, the goal was scored, celebrated and we were ready for kick off, when suddenly ref walks over, picks ball up, marches off and signals for VAR. Screens come on and it states VAR, goal disallowed. Good for us, but absolutely kills it for Villa fans. They need to make it happen far quicker and make it clear what is going on. It was a mess.

burnleymik wrote:Bumping this thread.

Happy the VAR went our way today, but it was a shambles how it happened. Would have been annoyed if I was a Villa fan, the goal was scored, celebrated and we were ready for kick off, when suddenly ref walks over, picks ball up, marches off and signals for VAR. Screens come on and it states VAR, goal disallowed. Good for us, but absolutely kills it for Villa fans. They need to make it happen far quicker and make it clear what is going on. It was a mess.

That was the best bit about the VAR decision toda (apart from the goal being disallowed of course )

The Villa fans absolute disbelief at it being overturned comedy bloody gold

The biased ref couldn’t wait to give the goal. He was as reluctant as I have seen thus far to change a VAR decision.

Bosscat wrote:That was the best bit about the VAR decision toda (apart from the goal being disallowed of course )

The Villa fans absolute disbelief at it being overturned comedy bloody gold

I agree, but imagine if the shoe was on the other foot, I wouldn't be best pleased.

VAR IS a mess and today we definitely benefited, but against Wolves (and actually last week V Norwich) we didn't. But to me the biggest problem VAR has is that Joe Bloggs footy fan in the street thought and was led to believe it would clear up any borderline decisions and make sure "justice" was always done and it's now clear that is NEVER going to happen and decisions will always be down to an individual's interpretation. So actually, no change!!

When they showed the replay as they were celebrating I commented that Hoolihan looked offside but only saw it the once and as no announcement assumed it was valid

Was good when it was confirmed