Benson
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Re: Benson
He’s a 19 year old lad who is not close to the first team yet. Would have been good to get him out on loan to a League One or Two club but we are having problems finding clubs for our young players. Hopefully something will happen for some of them tomorrow.Safron wrote:Thought with the game time he was enjoying in pre season he would have progressed to the first team , albeit on the bench?
Re: Benson
The problems beingClaretTony wrote:He’s a 19 year old lad who is not close to the first team yet. Would have been good to get him out on loan to a League One or Two club but we are having problems finding clubs for our young players. Hopefully something will happen for some of them tomorrow.
1 Loan fees and wages?
2 No appropriate club from our angle want them?
Stanley would like Dunne back again
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Re: Benson
I think it’s just a matter of finding appropriate clubs who will give them enough game time as Swindon did last season with Koiki.mdd2 wrote:The problems being
1 Loan fees and wages?
2 No appropriate club from our angle want them?
Stanley would like Dunne back again
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Re: Benson
Bit rich from us. We hardly have a track record of blooding youngsters on loan - Chalobah, N’Koudou etcClaretTony wrote:I think it’s just a matter of finding appropriate clubs who will give them enough game time as Swindon did last season with Koiki.
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Re: Benson
Clayton
Re: Benson
That's probably what they mean about "appropriate" club.pauliopaulio wrote:Bit rich from us. We hardly have a track record of blooding youngsters on loan - Chalobah, N’Koudou etc
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Re: Benson
Not signed for same reason - signed by us as cover with no assurances or expectation of game time and signed from teams in the same division. Here we are looking to get young players out to lower league clubs for experience.pauliopaulio wrote:Bit rich from us. We hardly have a track record of blooding youngsters on loan - Chalobah, N’Koudou etc
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Re: Benson
Anything below Championship is a bit useless if these lads really want to make it as PL players , in my opinion.ClaretTony wrote:Not signed for same reason - signed by us as cover with no assurances or expectation of game time and signed from teams in the same division. Here we are looking to get young players out to lower league clubs for experience.
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Re: Benson
They can't go to Championship clubs but why a 19 year old going to League One or Two is useless I don't know.boatshed bill wrote:Anything below Championship is a bit useless if these lads really want to make it as PL players , in my opinion.
Re: Benson
James Maddison did alright. League One and Two is an excellent level for a youngster to learn from. Not many championship side would take a youngster from a club like ours.boatshed bill wrote:Anything below Championship is a bit useless if these lads really want to make it as PL players , in my opinion.
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Re: Benson
Why can't they go to Championship clubs? Isn't that what Mason Mount did?ClaretTony wrote:They can't go to Championship clubs but why a 19 year old going to League One or Two is useless I don't know.
Re: Benson
The window is closed...boatshed bill wrote:Why can't they go to Championship clubs? Isn't that what Mason Mount did?
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Re: Benson
He would be a good signing from what I've seen.
Sunderland again?
Sunderland again?
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Re: Benson
But we could have sorted something, had we wanted to, a bit earlier. Perhaps we tried, I don't know.MACCA wrote:The window is closed...
Re: Benson
I'd have thought skint clubs would jump at the chance, Bolton Oldham Macvlesfield etc.
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Re: Benson
We’ve been trying to get some of them out on loan. The likes of Dunne, Koiki & Benson in particular need some first team football no matter the level.boatshed bill wrote:But we could have sorted something, had we wanted to, a bit earlier. Perhaps we tried, I don't know.
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Re: Benson
Let's not forget that Dunne had a torrid time at League 1 level, previously having done very well in the SPL.ClaretTony wrote:We’ve been trying to get some of them out on loan. The likes of Dunne, Koiki & Benson in particular need some first team football no matter the level.
League 1 is pretty shyte, I don't know what our lads are going to learn from it, unless that is going to be their true playing level.
Re: Benson
Dunne was at Stanley in 2017-18 season winning promotion
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Re: Benson
Indeed he was, and at Hearts where he did very well last season up until December. His experience at Sunderland for the second half of the season wasn't too great.mdd2 wrote:Dunne was at Stanley in 2017-18 season winning promotion
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Re: Benson
They're going to learn about managing professional football matches, I'd imagine.boatshed bill wrote:Let's not forget that Dunne had a torrid time at League 1 level, previously having done very well in the SPL.
League 1 is pretty shyte, I don't know what our lads are going to learn from it, unless that is going to be their true playing level.
Idea they can't learn anything from league one is pretty mental really.
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Re: Benson
"mental" who are you to judge?claretspice wrote:They're going to learn about managing professional football matches, I'd imagine.
Idea they can't learn anything from league one is pretty mental really.
do you ever watch League 2 football (L1 is not much better)? These loans have as much chance of doing harm as they have of doing good, in my personal (mental) opinion.
Re: Benson
But U23 games would be better?boatshed bill wrote:"mental" who are you to judge?
do you ever watch League 2 football (L1 is not much better)? These loans have as much chance of doing harm as they have of doing good, in my personal (mental) opinion.
Or will they learn more sat on the bench for Prem games? And if so who do you drop from the first team for that learning experience?
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Re: Benson
We have very good coaches.Mattster wrote:But U23 games would be better?
Or will they learn more sat on the bench for Prem games? And if so who do you drop from the first team for that learning experience?
Like I said earlier, Championship loans should be the target.
Re: Benson
As said earlier they're not possible now. And if they were what if they're not forthcoming?boatshed bill wrote:We have very good coaches.
Like I said earlier, Championship loans should be the target.
Also, those very good coaches you back clearly think the players' development would be best served by going on loan to League 1/2 clubs than in the U23s. Maybe you should consider they know better than you?
Re: Benson
Championship clubs won’t want a loan player from Burnley.boatshed bill wrote:But we could have sorted something, had we wanted to, a bit earlier. Perhaps we tried, I don't know.
It’s that simple. If they want to play loan players they’d get them from Utd/City etc. They’d all be pretty confident of having at least the same amount of quality in their younger sides than what they can get from us.
Re: Benson
Wouldn't have thought so. It's possible that trying to make progress through the stages of Paulton Rovers, Plymouth, Oxford, Salisbury, Eastbourne, Torquay and Brighton, isn't going to do a player any good. On the other hand, it might turn him into a Premier League centre forward.boatshed bill wrote:Anything below Championship is a bit useless if these lads really want to make it as PL players , in my opinion.
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Re: Benson
Yeah, so we can make him good enough for another club in 10 years time, maybe.
When exactly has it benefited one of our players to be loaned out to non-league for them to make it in our first time in the premier league?
In fact, when has it been beneficial for one of our youth players to be loaned out to make it in the championship even?
Its a bit of a faux point comparing that to Barnes when, 1. To break into the team a player needs to demonstrate more ability than the players he replaces and 2. Barnes isn't playing for the team that loaned him out to those clubs any more.
We've even loaned out players to league 1 sides and they haven't been good enough to break into our team.
Everyone wants a good youngster to come through, but the reality is if these lads aren't getting loan offers from decent teams it means they aren't good enough. If Benson was good enough he would be in the team like McNeil.
When exactly has it benefited one of our players to be loaned out to non-league for them to make it in our first time in the premier league?
In fact, when has it been beneficial for one of our youth players to be loaned out to make it in the championship even?
Its a bit of a faux point comparing that to Barnes when, 1. To break into the team a player needs to demonstrate more ability than the players he replaces and 2. Barnes isn't playing for the team that loaned him out to those clubs any more.
We've even loaned out players to league 1 sides and they haven't been good enough to break into our team.
Everyone wants a good youngster to come through, but the reality is if these lads aren't getting loan offers from decent teams it means they aren't good enough. If Benson was good enough he would be in the team like McNeil.
Re: Benson
I mean, you could look at it that way but I don't recall any other teams banging down our door for McNeil before he became a regular. Hell, he made three starts early in the season and there wasn't any significant interest even then with only League 2 Cheltenham apparently interested.superdimitri wrote: Everyone wants a good youngster to come through, but the reality is if these lads aren't getting loan offers from decent teams it means they aren't good enough. If Benson was good enough he would be in the team like McNeil.
So the way I'll look at it is that maybe these players haven't proved themselves at a level where Championship clubs will feel confident to take them on and make the assurances we want about getting first team football.
I'm led to believe that Hull were interested in Dunne as cover but we didn't want him challenging for their bench so that didn't happen, for example. I think we'll be looking at these players to prove themselves in League 1 (maybe even 2 in Benson's case) until January so as to be able to secure a loan at the level above for the second half of the season.
McNeil is also a bit of a poor comparison for Benson, Koiki and Dunne as he plays a position where we have limited (and injury prone) options. Benson has to compete with Cork, Westwood, Hendrick and Drinkwater. Koiki with Taylor and Pieters. Dunne with Tarkowski, Mee, Gibson and Long.
But you continue to make the worst possible assumption by all means if that floats your boat.
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Re: Benson
superdimitri wrote:
When exactly has it benefited one of our players to be loaned out to non-league for them to make it in our first time in the premier league?
In fact, when has it been beneficial for one of our youth players to be loaned out to make it at Championship level
Jay Rod Stirling Albion
Kyle Lafferty Darlington
Kevin Long Accy Stanley, Barnsley etc
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Re: Benson
The difference, of course, being that we were a Championship club at the time.dandeclaret wrote:Jay Rod Stirling Albion
Kyle Lafferty Darlington
Kevin Long Accy Stanley, Barnsley etc
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Re: Benson
Really - Jay Rod played at lower league level in Scotland and considered it a big opportunity for him. Of our current first team squad, Nick Pope (Cambridge, Aldershot, York & Bury), Charlie Taylor (Bradford City, York and Fleetwood), Jack Cork (Bournemouth & Scunthorpe), Danny Drinkwater (Huddersfield), Ashley Barnes (Oxford & Torquay), Ben Gibson (Plymouth, York & Tranmere) and Kevin Long (Accrington, Rochdale, Portsmouth, Barnsley & MK) - they've all had loans in Leagues One & Two. I wonder if they all came back having learned nothing from it.boatshed bill wrote:Let's not forget that Dunne had a torrid time at League 1 level, previously having done very well in the SPL.
League 1 is pretty shyte, I don't know what our lads are going to learn from it, unless that is going to be their true playing level.
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Re: Benson
Like I said before, we don't know how many loanees fall out of the system. Yes, of course there are successes. Most of your list were not loans from PL clubs.ClaretTony wrote:Really - Jay Rod played at lower league level in Scotland and considered it a big chance for him. Of our current first team squad, Nick Pope (Cambridge, Aldershot, York & Bury), Charlie Taylor (Bradford City, York and Fleetwood), Jack Cork (Bournemouth & Scunthorpe), Danny Drinkwater (Huddersfield), Ashley Barnes (Oxford & Torquay), Ben Gibson (Plymouth, York & Tranmere) and Kevin Long (Accrington, Rochdale, Portsmouth, Barnsley & MK) - they've all had loans in Leagues One & Two. I wonder if they all came back having learned nothing from it.
Re: Benson
How is that different? I fail to see how JayRod going on loan to Stirling Albion helped him because we were in the Championship but wouldn't have helped him if we'd been in the Premier.boatshed bill wrote:The difference, of course, being that we were a Championship club at the time.
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Re: Benson
It's not relevant where they were loans from - what is relevant is that these players played on loan at League One or below and are now in a Premier League squad. That's a hefty number from our squad already and there are others who played some non-league football.boatshed bill wrote:Like I said before, we don't know how many loanees fall out of the system. Yes, of course there are successes. Most of your list were not loans from PL clubs.
I just do not understand for one single minute how you don't think going to a League One or Two club might not be beneficial. Sorry, but your argument is totally beyond me.
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Re: Benson
Sorry but that's nonsense.boatshed bill wrote:Anything below Championship is a bit useless if these lads really want to make it as PL players , in my opinion.
Look at where we sent Jay. And look at where the likes of Defoe, Ferdinand and Beckham made a name.
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Re: Benson
Perhaps we don't want to send them to that environment?bfcjg wrote:I'd have thought skint clubs would jump at the chance, Bolton Oldham Macvlesfield etc.
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Re: Benson
I really do have a bit of a thing against the loan system, but the argument that you seem to think is "my" argument is not relevant to my belief that we should be aiming to send our young players to championship clubs. We are Premier League. Can anyone seriously disagree that we should be aiming as high as possible?ClaretTony wrote:It's not relevant where they were loans from - what is relevant is that these players played on loan at League One or below and are now in a Premier League squad. That's a hefty number from our squad already and there are others who played some non-league football.
I just do not understand for one single minute how you don't think going to a League One or Two club might not be beneficial. Sorry, but your argument is totally beyond me.
(and I do understand that that particular window is shut)
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Re: Benson
boatshed bill wrote:I really do have a bit of a thing against the loan system, but the argument that you seem to think is "my" argument is not relevant to my belief that we should be aiming to send our young players to championship clubs. We are Premier League. Can anyone seriously disagree that we should be aiming as high as possible?
(and I do understand that that particular window is shut)
We should be aiming as high as possible, yes, but the best thing is for the young players to be getting games.
It'd benefit Benson more to play 30 games for, say, Exeter than it would 10 games for Luton, and our club will be looking for these lads to play at least 20 full games over the season I'd guess.
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Re: Benson
That's a totally different point though - of course, you want your loan players to be loaned out and be playing games at as high a level as possible.boatshed bill wrote:I really do have a bit of a thing against the loan system, but the argument that you seem to think is "my" argument is not relevant to my belief that we should be aiming to send our young players to championship clubs. We are Premier League. Can anyone seriously disagree that we should be aiming as high as possible?
(and I do understand that that particular window is shut)
But it's one hell of a leap from that, to writing off every player who goes on loan to League One. That's the point that isn't remotely substantiated by any evidence.
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Re: Benson
Can I point out that you said loans below the Championship were useless,not that we should be aiming to send them to Championship clubs. And, the club will pitch these players at what they consider the appropriate level and where they think they will get as much regular first team football as possible. Sending them to League One, League Two or National League is very definitely not useless as you said.boatshed bill wrote:I really do have a bit of a thing against the loan system, but the argument that you seem to think is "my" argument is not relevant to my belief that we should be aiming to send our young players to championship clubs. We are Premier League. Can anyone seriously disagree that we should be aiming as high as possible?
(and I do understand that that particular window is shut)
Dunne to Fleetwood looks likely today.
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Re: Benson
My actual post,
"Anything below Championship is a bit useless if these lads really want to make it as PL players , in my opinion."
I hope Dunne fairs better at Fleetwood than he did at Sunderland.
"Anything below Championship is a bit useless if these lads really want to make it as PL players , in my opinion."
I hope Dunne fairs better at Fleetwood than he did at Sunderland.
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Re: Benson
Send them all to Bolton.
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Re: Benson
But that's not substantiated by evidence, is it?boatshed bill wrote:My actual post,
"Anything below Championship is a bit useless if these lads really want to make it as PL players , in my opinion."
I hope Dunne fairs better at Fleetwood than he did at Sunderland.
Currently Burnley players to have played in League One or below include Pope, Lowton, Tarkowski, Long, Gibson, Taylor, Cork, Westwood, Drinkwater, Barnes, Rodriguez. I make that a very decent eleven indeed.
So - absolutely no reason to suggest that "only" getting a loan to that sort of level means you won't make it at all, and I imagine if you spoke to anyone of those players, you'd be told that they found that experience really invaluable in shaping them as footballers.
It's true that we don't get our young players our at clubs at the same level as the big clubs. Partly, that's because we don't have as many young players, and we don't have the consistent pipeline that develops the reputation/relationship that underpins that sort of model. In part it might suggest that our young players aren't as outstanding as Mason Mount or Tammy Abraham. But as relevant is that players develop at different rates. The big clubs generally have the pick of the players, and they take all the low hanging fruit - the players who are early developers. We have to take players (like McNeil) who haven't shown enough early enough to make it at the likes of United, and need an extra year or two. Those players might not be ready for the Championship aged 18 or 19, but they might be ready for League One, and the benefits of senior first team football means they'll use it as a stepping stone to a higher level - just as all those players I've cited at Burnley did (and just as a number of the current England team did).
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Re: Benson
But again all the examples given are either players who weren't at Burnley when they played at a low level or if they were at Burnley they weren't playing at that low of a level. In the case of Long and Rodriguez as pointed out, we were in the championship at the time and Rodriguez didn't even get a run in when we were premier league.
This is OUR youth system we are talking about, not Leeds, Chelsea or others alike. Of course they have better youth setups and a record of producing higher quality youngsters.
We need to get these players out to championship clubs, its as simple as that.
This is OUR youth system we are talking about, not Leeds, Chelsea or others alike. Of course they have better youth setups and a record of producing higher quality youngsters.
We need to get these players out to championship clubs, its as simple as that.
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Re: Benson
What difference does it make what level the parent club is at? The objective of the exercise is to develop players who in their early 20s (or earlier if possible) are capable of playing at first team level. Why is it a necessity that they start helping out some other clubs in the Championship, rather than those in League 1? If they're Championship ready, great, if not never mind. The lesson of all those players I cited is that it's incorrect to write them off because they go on loan to League 1 as teenagers.superdimitri wrote:But again all the examples given are either players who weren't at Burnley when they played at a low level or if they were at Burnley they weren't playing at that low of a level. In the case of Long and Rodriguez as pointed out, we were in the championship at the time and Rodriguez didn't even get a run in when we were premier league.
This is OUR youth system we are talking about, not Leeds, Chelsea or others alike. Of course they have better youth setups and a record of producing higher quality youngsters.
We need to get these players out to championship clubs, its as simple as that.
It's not about the means, it's about the end.
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Re: Benson
What I’ve seen of benson he does well to get a game at under 23 level with us needs to improve to go higher
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Re: Benson
Thank you for understanding where I'm coming from. But, unfortunately quoting Claretspice, I am mental.superdimitri wrote:But again all the examples given are either players who weren't at Burnley when they played at a low level or if they were at Burnley they weren't playing at that low of a level. In the case of Long and Rodriguez as pointed out, we were in the championship at the time and Rodriguez didn't even get a run in when we were premier league.
This is OUR youth system we are talking about, not Leeds, Chelsea or others alike. Of course they have better youth setups and a record of producing higher quality youngsters.
We need to get these players out to championship clubs, its as simple as that.
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Re: Benson
Well, I think it probably is, if you want to look at the facts. Check out how many players from our youth system have gone out on loan to L2 or lower who have come through the leagues and got anywhere near the standard we were at when they got released.claretspice wrote:But that's not substantiated by evidence, is it?
Currently Burnley players to have played in League One or below include Pope, Lowton, Tarkowski, Long, Gibson, Taylor, Cork, Westwood, Drinkwater, Barnes, Rodriguez. I make that a very decent eleven indeed.
So - absolutely no reason to suggest that "only" getting a loan to that sort of level means you won't make it at all, and I imagine if you spoke to anyone of those players, you'd be told that they found that experience really invaluable in shaping them as footballers.
It's true that we don't get our young players our at clubs at the same level as the big clubs. Partly, that's because we don't have as many young players, and we don't have the consistent pipeline that develops the reputation/relationship that underpins that sort of model. In part it might suggest that our young players aren't as outstanding as Mason Mount or Tammy Abraham. But as relevant is that players develop at different rates. The big clubs generally have the pick of the players, and they take all the low hanging fruit - the players who are early developers. We have to take players (like McNeil) who haven't shown enough early enough to make it at the likes of United, and need an extra year or two. Those players might not be ready for the Championship aged 18 or 19, but they might be ready for League One, and the benefits of senior first team football means they'll use it as a stepping stone to a higher level - just as all those players I've cited at Burnley did (and just as a number of the current England team did).
OK, next post is almost bound to mention Marc Pugh