Benson

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superdimitri
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Re: Benson

Post by superdimitri » Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:40 pm

claretspice wrote:What difference does it make what level the parent club is at? The objective of the exercise is to develop players who in their early 20s (or earlier if possible) are capable of playing at first team level. Why is it a necessity that they start helping out some other clubs in the Championship, rather than those in League 1? If they're Championship ready, great, if not never mind. The lesson of all those players I cited is that it's incorrect to write them off because they go on loan to League 1 as teenagers.

It's not about the means, it's about the end.
Because if these young lads aren't good enough to be breaking into our first team soon they are useless to us and if they aren't good enough to attract championship clubs at 19/20 then they have too large of a gap to make it into our first team.

As I said with McNeil, if they are good enough they would already be playing for us..

Most of them get released and never even make it at a full time level.

Its pointless talking about the players from other clubs because those players weren't from our youth system, we may as well scrap the youth system and sign players that have the quality to make it into our first team.

Its a pointless argument you make as it has nothing to do with how we gain from our youth system.

BFC isn't a charity, I couldn't give two hoots if one of those players ends up playing for a club in the premier league 10 years from now. It doesn't benefit us at all just the same as it doesn't benefit Plymouth that Barnes now plays for us in the Premier league...how much did they sell him to Brighton for? A measly sum I'm sure.
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ClaretTony
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Re: Benson

Post by ClaretTony » Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:41 pm

Benson & Dunne didn’t come through our youth team. They were signed from Arsenal & Man United and that’s where they played youth football.

But I just see a complete misunderstanding of what we are trying to achieve to progress these players. Dunne moving to Fleetwood is a good move. He’s going to a club where our manager trusts their manager and that’s also important.

Shame we couldn’t get a couple more out but if they are not going to get first team football elsewhere they are best staying with us.

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Re: Benson

Post by superdimitri » Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:43 pm

boatshed bill wrote:Thank you for understanding where I'm coming from. But, unfortunately quoting Claretspice, I am mental.
There are people with very strong views on the topic in the forums. Many who will jump at you for any criticism of the youth system or even the club at all.

I think it has to do with the older generation holding on to the Burnley youth system of the past that in the 60s and 70s bought us such good players.

Things move on, very different times today, unfortunately for us.

I don't really understand it, we are all Burnley fans and want what's best for the club and we're all entitled to our own opinion!

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Re: Benson

Post by Dyched » Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:43 pm

Most championship clubs have youth systems producing players at the same level as us.

Teams chasing promotion like last season (Villa/Derby) are after really promising players like Abraham and Mount. The top 6/10 clubs if they are to get players in on loan will be after players of that calibre because they’ll already have players at the same level of our youth players in their own youth systems. Why would they take for example Benson on loan if they already have somebody at his level? Why help another clubs player get experience when they can gain experience for one if their own? But it isn’t just the top 10 or so teams but plenty of mid table sides (Blackburn/Preston/Brentford/etc) would most likely have players already better than Benson.

The only realistic option you could see would be Luton. But why would they play a unknown youth player with little to no experience in what will be a real fight to survive?

We’re Burnley. We produce players at League 1 level.

Very, very few football clubs produce players that play at the first team level.

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Re: Benson

Post by ClaretTony » Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:47 pm

Dwight McNeil all but went to a League One club on loan last year. It was only the injuries coupled with the Euro commitments that blocked it.

boatshed bill
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Re: Benson

Post by boatshed bill » Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:47 pm

Dyched wrote:Most championship clubs have youth systems producing players at the same level as us.

Teams chasing promotion like last season (Villa/Derby) are after really promising players like Abraham and Mount. The top 6/10 clubs if they are to get players in on loan will be after players of that calibre because they’ll already have players at the same level of our youth players in their own youth systems. Why would they take for example Benson on loan if they already have somebody at his level? Why help another clubs player get experience when they can gain experience for one if their own? But it isn’t just the top 10 or so teams but plenty of mid table sides (Blackburn/Preston/Brentford/etc) would most likely have players already better than Benson.

The only realistic option you could see would be Luton. But why would they play a unknown youth player with little to no experience in what will be a real fight to survive?

We’re Burnley. We produce players at League 1 level.

Very, very few football clubs produce players that play at the first team level.
Interesting, and not far off the truth.

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Re: Benson

Post by boatshed bill » Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:50 pm

ClaretTony wrote:Dwight McNeil all but went to a League One club on loan last year. It was only the injuries coupled with the Euro commitments that blocked it.
Just as well it got blocked or we may very well have got relegated.
And who can honestly say for sure that a season with Cheltenham would have benefited the lad's development?

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Re: Benson

Post by ClaretTony » Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:52 pm

boatshed bill wrote:Just as well it got blocked or we may very well have got relegated.
And who can honestly say for sure that a season with Cheltenham would have benefited the lad's development?
Cheltenham? Last time I looked they were in League Two? The club he was close to going to was Fleetwood. It would have allowed us a recall in January.

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Re: Benson

Post by boatshed bill » Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:57 pm

ClaretTony wrote:Cheltenham? Last time I looked they were in League Two? The club he was close to going to was Fleetwood. It would have allowed us a recall in January.
OK, but we heard that Cheltenham were intersted. You could put any L1 or L2 club in my post and the point would still remain that both the player and the club benefited massively from him not going out on loan.
But you know that already ;)

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Re: Benson

Post by ClaretTony » Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:15 pm

boatshed bill wrote:OK, but we heard that Cheltenham were intersted. You could put any L1 or L2 club in my post and the point would still remain that both the player and the club benefited massively from him not going out on loan.
But you know that already ;)
He’d have been back in January in any case but Dyche pulled the plug on it. Under normal circumstances it would likely have been a good move.

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Re: Benson

Post by dsr » Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:19 pm

boatshed bill wrote:Just as well it got blocked or we may very well have got relegated.
And who can honestly say for sure that a season with Cheltenham would have benefited the lad's development?
Nobody, of course. When developing young players, you don't work only in certainties. Possibly because if you did, you would never have any youth players, because there are no certainties.

Alex Ferguson reckoned that David Beckham would benefit from time on loan at third division Preston. With hindsight, having regard to the whole of Beckham's career, would you say he was wrong? That it was a waste of time? That because he was sent out to the third division, he was no use to Man United?
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Re: Benson

Post by boatshed bill » Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:27 pm

Youth development has to be our priority. I doubt that our budget will buy us survival in the PL so we need this to work.
much as we can argue the pros and cons of loans, I think most Burnley fans can agree on this.
From what I understand the Pro Development League has been created to make under 23 football more competitive; I would like to think that we are treating it as a serious competition to help young players improve, in effect reducing the reliance on the loan system.

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Re: Benson

Post by claretspice » Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:06 am

superdimitri wrote:Because if these young lads aren't good enough to be breaking into our first team soon they are useless to us and if they aren't good enough to attract championship clubs at 19/20 then they have too large of a gap to make it into our first team.

As I said with McNeil, if they are good enough they would already be playing for us..

Most of them get released and never even make it at a full time level.

Its pointless talking about the players from other clubs because those players weren't from our youth system, we may as well scrap the youth system and sign players that have the quality to make it into our first team.

Its a pointless argument you make as it has nothing to do with how we gain from our youth system.

BFC isn't a charity, I couldn't give two hoots if one of those players ends up playing for a club in the premier league 10 years from now. It doesn't benefit us at all just the same as it doesn't benefit Plymouth that Barnes now plays for us in the Premier league...how much did they sell him to Brighton for? A measly sum I'm sure.
Well, the first point is that it's not always a reflection of the ability of our youngsters that we can't get them out to Championship clubs. Clearly, had McNeil gone to Fleetwood at the beginning of last season, say, it wouldn't have been because he wasn't good enough for the Championship - he's now good enough for the Premier League. That's a marketing/perception thing and it takes time to change and to build the relationships at that level which enable us to get players out on loan to those clubs.

But secondly, even if you leave that aside, as I said, footballers develop at different rates. Some are physically ready for the Championship at 18/19 - some aren't. Rodriguez wasn't - at that age he was on loan at Stirling Albion. But by 21/22 he was clearly too good for the Championship and by the summer he turned 23 he got the big move to the Premier League and immediately became a regular - even allowing for the fact he missed quite a lot of one season owing to an ankle injury that severely hampered his development. Ashley Westwood broke into league 2 at 18, spent a year in league 1 at 21 and then got his move to the Premier League, when he immediately became a regular. They just happen to be the first two examples I've looked up so I I'm sure others follow a similar development path.

Is waiting till their 21/22 too long? I'd argue not. It's about the age at which Tammy Abraham has got his big chance at Chelsea, for example (he's 22 in a month). We kept Kevin Long at the club into his mid 20s and he's proved an excellent squad member. Even if you tot up his wages for the last decade there's no doubt holding onto him and bringing him through patiently has saved us money.

So - even if you accept that we can't wait as long as Barnes did to mature, the fact is there's plenty of examples to look at right there of players who started further down, but were first team, Premier League ready by the sort of age we'd be targeting for players to establish themselves at this level.

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Re: Benson

Post by ClaretTony » Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:30 am

boatshed bill wrote:Youth development has to be our priority. I doubt that our budget will buy us survival in the PL so we need this to work.
much as we can argue the pros and cons of loans, I think most Burnley fans can agree on this.
From what I understand the Pro Development League has been created to make under 23 football more competitive; I would like to think that we are treating it as a serious competition to help young players improve, in effect reducing the reliance on the loan system.
Totally agree that we need to prioritise on youth development and the club is very definitely moving strongly in that direction. By moving to Cat 2 ahead of the 2017/18 season, it enabled our youth team to move into a better league (the likes of Leeds, Forest and the two Sheffield clubs replacing Carlisle, Morecambe, Shrewsbury etc.) It also enabled an under-23 team to compete in an identical league. That helps with recruitment so that in turn should see us get stronger at all levels, both those teams and the much younger teams.

We are recovering from the dreadful years between 2011 and 2016 when all the previous progress, limited because of finance, had just about been decimated. It all takes time which is why we have also brought a lot of players in from other clubs to play at under-23 level. If you look at the 13 players involved yesterday - only Bobby Thomas, Oliver Younger and Tunde Bayode have come through our youth team while Joe McGlynn is currently 16 and in the youth team.

Part of that process is getting young players out on loan to play some men's football. To an extent the level doesn't matter although you wouldn't want a player good enough for the Championship going to a North West Counties club. Hopefully we will get some more out in January but it is getting more difficult because managers at league clubs are become less open to taking young players with no first team experience.

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Re: Benson

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:46 pm

How many premier league clubs have academy players on loan at Championship clubs this season ?

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Re: Benson

Post by superdimitri » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:54 pm

claretspice wrote:Well, the first point is that it's not always a reflection of the ability of our youngsters that we can't get them out to Championship clubs. Clearly, had McNeil gone to Fleetwood at the beginning of last season, say, it wouldn't have been because he wasn't good enough for the Championship - he's now good enough for the Premier League. That's a marketing/perception thing and it takes time to change and to build the relationships at that level which enable us to get players out on loan to those clubs.

But secondly, even if you leave that aside, as I said, footballers develop at different rates. Some are physically ready for the Championship at 18/19 - some aren't. Rodriguez wasn't - at that age he was on loan at Stirling Albion. But by 21/22 he was clearly too good for the Championship and by the summer he turned 23 he got the big move to the Premier League and immediately became a regular - even allowing for the fact he missed quite a lot of one season owing to an ankle injury that severely hampered his development. Ashley Westwood broke into league 2 at 18, spent a year in league 1 at 21 and then got his move to the Premier League, when he immediately became a regular. They just happen to be the first two examples I've looked up so I I'm sure others follow a similar development path.

Is waiting till their 21/22 too long? I'd argue not. It's about the age at which Tammy Abraham has got his big chance at Chelsea, for example (he's 22 in a month). We kept Kevin Long at the club into his mid 20s and he's proved an excellent squad member. Even if you tot up his wages for the last decade there's no doubt holding onto him and bringing him through patiently has saved us money.

So - even if you accept that we can't wait as long as Barnes did to mature, the fact is there's plenty of examples to look at right there of players who started further down, but were first team, Premier League ready by the sort of age we'd be targeting for players to establish themselves at this level.
Its true that they develop at different rates but its kind of irrelevant in our case, as you'll know if you follow our youth football if they aren't good enough when they get to the age of 20-23 they are quickly shipped out and we've had some pretty promising players we've signed from other clubs bought at a young(ish) age follow the same pattern. There's more but Ginnelly and Agyei are good examples.

If we kept our players that got to 23 and gave them time to develop maybe it would work for some, but we don't. So why don't we? Probably because the statistics at that point speak for themselves, most players if not good enough by 19 will never be good enough and its probably at that point in our own interest and theirs to ship them out. If they do turn out to be good enough it could be as late as 29 (Kevin Long, Ashley Barnes) until they are and that's a lot of wages, time and money spent on a player who either is continuously loaned out or rotting their development in our underdevelopment squad.

If McNeil went to Fleetwood who knows what would have happened? Its not good saying that he would have gone to Fleetwood when he's an example of someone stepping in to our team when he didn't go there to begin with. Perhaps if he did he would have got injured and never made it like the rest of them?

Fact is, he didn't go and he turned out to be good enough, whether Dyche is giving enough chances to our young players to make an impact like he did is a discussion for another day.

I don't think Kevin Long can really be used as an example because he wasn't a player that ever featured in our youth development. He was already 19 when he signed for us and was quickly deemed not good enough and shipped out to other clubs on loan. Perhaps if the manager was different then both Long and Rodriguez would be playing in 2009 when we were first promoted in the premier league...but again that is all ifs and maybes, fact is, it didn't happen.

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Re: Benson

Post by Goobs » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:56 pm

So did any of our players go out on loan?
Has the window now closed?

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Re: Benson

Post by ClaretTony » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:33 pm

superdimitri wrote:Perhaps if the manager was different then both Long and Rodriguez would be playing in 2009 when we were first promoted in the premier league...but again that is all ifs and maybes, fact is, it didn't happen.
I still don’t know why Jay Rod wasn’t even included on the bench when we first got into the Premier League but Long wasn’t a Burnley player then.

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Re: Benson

Post by superdimitri » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:23 pm

ClaretTony wrote:I still don’t know why Jay Rod wasn’t even included on the bench when we first got into the Premier League but Long wasn’t a Burnley player then.
He seemed to get along with some players more than others, I remember he didn't seem to play Thompson much either in the Premier League...and then of course there was Duff.

Long became an elusive player, signed with promise but never considered to be good enough. I think most players in his situation would have wanted to move away from Burnley by now. How many other players have been with a club for 10 years almost and made less than 50 appearances?

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Re: Benson

Post by ClaretTony » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:56 pm

superdimitri wrote:He seemed to get along with some players more than others, I remember he didn't seem to play Thompson much either in the Premier League...and then of course there was Duff.

Long became an elusive player, signed with promise but never considered to be good enough. I think most players in his situation would have wanted to move away from Burnley by now. How many other players have been with a club for 10 years almost and made less than 50 appearances?
I recall at the AGM in 2009 I asked Coyle for a progress on the youth department. He evaded the question and instead spoke about Kevin Long, leaving the room convinced we’d signed a world beater. He didn’t give Thompson a start in the Premier League and Duff only came in for his final two games in charge.
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Re: Benson

Post by boatshed bill » Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:23 pm

Following on from this debate I did a bit of research into loans out,and players who we had as youths who went on to play at our level at the time.
It doesn't make a very good case for loans:

Richard Chaplow (debut 2003) no loans, played first team at Championship level
Chris McCann (debut 2005) no loans, played PL level
Kyle Lafferty (debut 2005) 9 appearances on loan at Darlington, played Championship and SPL
Jay Rodriguez (debut 2007) 2 loans Stiring Albion (played 11), Barnsley (played 6) Played PL
Marc Pugh (released, went to Bury) 2 loans at Kidderminster 7 games in total, played PL level
Dwight Mcneil

Food for thought?

I apologise for any I may have missed.

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Re: Benson

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:38 pm

boatshed bill wrote:Following on from this debate I did a bit of research into loans out,and players who we had as youths who went on to play at our level at the time.
It doesn't make a very good case for loans:

Richard Chaplow (debut 2003) no loans, played first team at Championship level
Chris McCann (debut 2005) no loans, played PL level
Kyle Lafferty (debut 2005) 9 appearances on loan at Darlington, played Championship and SPL
Jay Rodriguez (debut 2007) 2 loans Stiring Albion (played 11), Barnsley (played 6) Played PL
Marc Pugh (released, went to Bury) 2 loans at Kidderminster 7 games in total, played PL level
Dwight Mcneil

Food for thought?

I apologise for any I may have missed.
Id say it doesn't make a very good case for our youth team. Which is hopefuly now improving and baring fruits of investment.

Its always going to be difficult for us. There are probably more academies and premier league clubs (past or present) within 45 minutes than anywhere else in the country.

How anyone can think a player going out on loan to a pro level is a bad thing is beyond me. Is the alternative better?

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Re: Benson

Post by Dyched » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:33 pm

Imo youth systems will begin to fade away at most clubs. That sounds strange I know. Clubs will begin just picking up the scraps from the bigger teams.

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Re: Benson

Post by superdimitri » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:35 am

cricketfieldclarets wrote: How anyone can think a player going out on loan to a pro level is a bad thing is beyond me. Is the alternative better?
Possibly could be, its not a bad thing from their perspective as they may find it helps them find a lower level club when they are released by us. Its not really an improvement over being in our development squad for Burnley though. If he was good enough he'd be playing.
Dyched wrote:Imo youth systems will begin to fade away at most clubs. That sounds strange I know. Clubs will begin just picking up the scraps from the bigger teams.
Thats exactly what we already are doing, most of the lads that come through are rejects from other youth systems, most still don't make it. Benson was released by Arsenal like McNeil from Manchester UTD.

If you go to the underdevelopment squad games you'll hear the lads shouting in every accent in the country other than Burnley.

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Re: Benson

Post by boatshed bill » Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:19 am

cricketfieldclarets wrote: How anyone can think a player going out on loan to a pro level is a bad thing is beyond me. Is the alternative better?
Because it appears to be THE system then it is best by default.

The stats I put forward show that it doesn't have to be part of a career path, "if they are good enough they are old enough", or possibly the opportunity arises (eg Chaplow) when the parent club is short on players.

I think the Pro-Development League, taken seriously, could be much more influential if clubs take it seriously enough.

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Re: Benson

Post by ClaretTony » Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:26 am

boatshed bill wrote:Because it appears to be THE system then it is best by default.

The stats I put forward show that it doesn't have to be part of a career path, "if they are good enough they are old enough", or possibly the opportunity arises (eg Chaplow) when the parent club is short on players.

I think the Pro-Development League, taken seriously, could be much more influential if clubs take it seriously enough.
The stats you put forward are all, McNeil apart, from a different era in terms of academies, youth football, reserve football etc. so they can't sensibly be used as an argument for sending out players today on loan.

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Re: Benson

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:35 am

boatshed bill wrote:Because it appears to be THE system then it is best by default.

The stats I put forward show that it doesn't have to be part of a career path, "if they are good enough they are old enough", or possibly the opportunity arises (eg Chaplow) when the parent club is short on players.

I think the Pro-Development League, taken seriously, could be much more influential if clubs take it seriously enough.
Jamie Vardy. Joe Hart. Michail Antonio. Chris Smalling. Ashley Williams. Sam Clucas. Yannick Bolasie. Ian Wright. Les Ferdinand.

All played at non league.

Rio Ferdinand. David Beckham. Jermaine Defoe. Jay Rodriguez. Danny Drinkwater. Were all loaned to league one or below and played for England.

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Re: Benson

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:38 am

cricketfieldclarets wrote:Jamie Vardy. Joe Hart. Michail Antonio. Chris Smalling. Ashley Williams. Sam Clucas. Yannick Bolasie. Ian Wright. Les Ferdinand.

All played at non league.

Rio Ferdinand. David Beckham. Jermaine Defoe. Jay Rodriguez. Danny Drinkwater. Were all loaned to league one or below and played for England.

Harry Kane also went to Orient, clearly he wasn't good enough either

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Re: Benson

Post by Rileybobs » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:31 am

Dele Alli made his name at League One MK Dons didn’t he?

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Re: Benson

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:32 am

Englands 2018 World Cup Semi Finalists:

Jordan Pickford - Darlington, Alfreton - Non League. Burton, Carlisle, Bradford League One.
Jack Butland - Cheltengam League Two.
Nick Pope - Charlton League One, Harrow, Welling, Cambridge, Aldershot - Non League. York and Bury League Two.
Kyle Walker - Northampton League One.
Harry Maguire - Sheffield League One.
Fabian Delph - Leeds League One.
Dele Alli - MK Dons League One.
Jamie Vardy - Halifax and Fleetwood Non League.
Harry Kane - Leyton Orient League One.

And almost all of the squad played at championship level.

But yeah. Waste of time those lower leagues.

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Re: Benson

Post by dsr » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:36 am

boatshed bill wrote:Because it appears to be THE system then it is best by default.

The stats I put forward show that it doesn't have to be part of a career path, "if they are good enough they are old enough", or possibly the opportunity arises (eg Chaplow) when the parent club is short on players.

I think the Pro-Development League, taken seriously, could be much more influential if clubs take it seriously enough.
There are loads of career paths. Some players do better by going on loan to lower leagues, some do better by coming from non-league, some do better by coming through a premier league youth system and never playing for anyone else. No system can be ruled out en bloc for all players. The thing that is causing the disagreements is that you appear to be saying that the approach used for Beckham and Kane (among others) is flat out wrong and should never be used.

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Re: Benson

Post by boatshed bill » Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:47 pm

cricketfieldclarets wrote:Englands 2018 World Cup Semi Finalists:

Jordan Pickford - Darlington, Alfreton - Non League. Burton, Carlisle, Bradford League One.
Jack Butland - Cheltengam League Two.
Nick Pope - Charlton League One, Harrow, Welling, Cambridge, Aldershot - Non League. York and Bury League Two.
Kyle Walker - Northampton League One.
Harry Maguire - Sheffield League One.
Fabian Delph - Leeds League One.
Dele Alli - MK Dons League One.
Jamie Vardy - Halifax and Fleetwood Non League.
Harry Kane - Leyton Orient League One.

And almost all of the squad played at championship level.

But yeah. Waste of time those lower leagues.
HaHa!
I have pointed out some Burnley loans out, loans which may or may not have benefited the players' careers.
Everyone quotes Jamie Vardy, but he has never been on loan.
I'll give you Pickford.
Ali was a loan back agreement.

Beckham played 5 games on loan at Preston, their coaches must have been at genius level to turn him into an international superstar in 5 games!

I have more!
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Re: Benson

Post by superdimitri » Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:02 pm

How is it relevant to Burnley that other players, who weren't from OUR academy were later signed by other teams? All it shows is we make the right decision when signing players like Pope the way we did and that we didn't instead give a chance to another youngster who isn't good enough from our academy to make it.

Can't you see a pattern here? Leicester did not benefit from Loaning Vardy out, they bought him, he was never a Leicester graduate, let alone not a Burnley one.

Maybe our plan was to Loan out Benson until for 6 years to a league one side and then see if he's good enough?...it doesn't happen. At his age its make it or break it time and if he's not in the first team, he likely will never be.

Pickford/Butland aside those are ALL players that either belonged to lower league clubs, or players who came from Academies with a track record of producing good quality players. That is NOT US. Even with Pickford he was extraordinarily young for a keeper to be loaned out. Goalkeepers aren't usually that good so soon. For an outfield player to be compared you'd want to be loaning out a kid to Darlington when they are 15-16.

As boatshed bill said already, if you want to start picking names out of a hat there's far, far more players who were good enough and put in to the team straight away. If we want the youth to work, we need to produce players who are good enough to be in our team by 19 and if not, the league below.

Here's a couple of good ones for you; Kyle Walker was loaned back to Sheffield United when he was 19. Yes, he was playing regularly at championship level (belonging to a premier league team) when he was 19. Kyle Naughton by comparison was 20..and look at the difference there that one year can make despite playing similar level football.

Harry Kane may have been loaned to Leyton Orient when he just turned 18 but he also made his Tottenham debut at 18 and, much the same as Walker was loaned back to the championship, guess how old he was playing for Millwall in the championship? Still 18

Loaning one of our players out to a low level means f all to us, the fact is if they were good enough they'd be in the team and if they aren't good enough by the age of 23 we get rid of them.

Again, this is Burnley we are talking about here, not Chelsea, not Tottenham, not Arsenal or Manchester UTD, but BURNLEY. If its an exception a club like Tottenham to find youngsters like Mason or Kane and they are playing in the championship level younger than our players sometimes play in non-league then you can clearly see the argument.

If we want the youth system to improve we need to have players who are knocking on the door of the first team, players who will get championship loans at a young age...and even if they get loans to Championship clubs its possible that by the age of 21 (like Jimmy Dunne) its too late. Its probably too late now for him to make it with us anyway since he's still only managed a league 1 move.

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Re: Benson

Post by Darnhill Claret » Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:13 pm

A central defender does not need to make a first team debut as young as you seem to think. The more precocious the talent the more likely they are to make an early first team debut. Centre backs and goalkeepers tend to debut later, unless they are seen as super talented from a young age. Those type of players will more likely debut earlier.

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Re: Benson

Post by ClaretTony » Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:14 pm

Didn’t Kane have loans at Norwich & Leicester after Millwall?

Wasn’t Michael Keane 21 before he played in the Premier League? He’d had loans with three other clubs before that albeit all in the Championship.

So I wouldn’t suggest anyone is too late at 21 at all.

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Re: Benson

Post by boatshed bill » Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:21 pm

ClaretTony wrote:Didn’t Kane have loans at Norwich & Leicester after Millwall?

Wasn’t Michael Keane 21 before he played in the Premier League? He’d had loans with three other clubs before that albeit all in the Championship.

So I wouldn’t suggest anyone is too late at 21 at all.
kane played 56 times over 3 seasons on loan at those clubs. he was aged 18-20.
keane kind of makes my point, Championship on loan.

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Re: Benson

Post by ClaretTony » Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:28 pm

boatshed bill wrote:kane played 56 times over 3 seasons on loan at those clubs. he was aged 18-20.
keane kind of makes my point, Championship on loan.
No individual makes your point because every player is different. Going back to our academy, we are rebuilding, we don’t have a queue of players ready to step up but we do have players who need to play first team football no matter what level. If we can get them out on loan and they can get that first team football then it could also mean that we can then get fees for them should they prove not good enough at the level we are at.

The manager, his staff and the academy staff all feel getting some of these players out on loan is important. Unfortunately we are struggling to find clubs who will take inexperienced players. I’m surprised about Koiki though, thought he’d get somewhere given how well he’d done at Swindon.
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Re: Benson

Post by boatshed bill » Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:42 pm

ClaretTony wrote:No individual makes your point because every player is different. Going back to our academy, we are rebuilding, we don’t have a queue of players ready to step up but we do have players who need to play first team football no matter what level. If we can get them out on loan and they can get that first team football then it could also mean that we can then get fees for them should they prove not good enough at the level we are at.

The manager, his staff and the academy staff all feel getting some of these players out on loan is important. Unfortunately we are struggling to find clubs who will take inexperienced players. I’m surprised about Koiki though, thought he’d get somewhere given how well he’d done at Swindon.
I'm delighted that we are trying to build from very young age groups up, I think you know this. it's more the loan system as it stands that I am not keen on. A system which allows the wealthiest clubs to stockpile young players, often with no intention of using them. I hope we don't follow that blueprint, and doubt we would ever really have the clout to do that.

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Re: Benson

Post by ClaretTony » Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:51 pm

boatshed bill wrote:I'm delighted that we are trying to build from very young age groups up, I think you know this. it's more the loan system as it stands that I am not keen on. A system which allows the wealthiest clubs to stockpile young players, often with no intention of using them. I hope we don't follow that blueprint, and doubt we would ever really have the clout to do that.
We would never be in a position to do that and I’m sure it’s not the plan. I believe our academy will try to produce players for our first team and, for those not able to make it, sell some of them on to other clubs.

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Re: Benson

Post by superdimitri » Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:59 pm

This is exactly what the club has been alluding too though, no one has ever expected too much and been disappointed by the results of the youth system, we know it got damaged in recent years and we know competition is too tough given Burnley's locale. The fact is these loans are about what's "best for the player" and gives those players "the best chance in their career"...as I'm sure anyone who's spoken to anyone in the BFC hierarchy would have heard touted many a time.

In other words, its a nice way of saying they aren't good enough so they are being pushed out of the way for the next youngster so the roulette wheel of potential can be spun again.

Sorry to be a party pooper, but it really gets on my nerves when people think these loans are benefiting us, they aren't. Its not the 60s or 70s any more and Burnley are a Premier League club now, competing with teams who are abuntantly richer. We are no longer "little old Burnley" who stand a good chance of decent youngsters coming through...maybe we will be once our Premier League spell is over, but not now.

At most we let a player move on and get some small compensation one day for a bigger move. In the case of Dunne I am sure we are just looking to get some money for him, anyone who has seen him play can see he has worse than Ben Mee bricks attacked to both his feet and can't string a short pass together.

He could turn out to be fantastic in defence, but it doesn't improve on what we have unless he's both fantastic in defence and at distribution.

The gap now between youth and first team has never been bigger, and thats the main reason why if a player doesn't feature for us at 19 and compete for first team spots, they likely never will.

I'd love to be proved wrong, but I am a realist.

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Re: Benson

Post by dsr » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:48 pm

superdimitri wrote:This is exactly what the club has been alluding too though, no one has ever expected too much and been disappointed by the results of the youth system, we know it got damaged in recent years and we know competition is too tough given Burnley's locale. The fact is these loans are about what's "best for the player" and gives those players "the best chance in their career"...as I'm sure anyone who's spoken to anyone in the BFC hierarchy would have heard touted many a time.

In other words, its a nice way of saying they aren't good enough so they are being pushed out of the way for the next youngster so the roulette wheel of potential can be spun again.

Sorry to be a party pooper, but it really gets on my nerves when people think these loans are benefiting us, they aren't. Its not the 60s or 70s any more and Burnley are a Premier League club now, competing with teams who are abuntantly richer. We are no longer "little old Burnley" who stand a good chance of decent youngsters coming through...maybe we will be once our Premier League spell is over, but not now.

At most we let a player move on and get some small compensation one day for a bigger move. In the case of Dunne I am sure we are just looking to get some money for him, anyone who has seen him play can see he has worse than Ben Mee bricks attacked to both his feet and can't string a short pass together.

He could turn out to be fantastic in defence, but it doesn't improve on what we have unless he's both fantastic in defence and at distribution.

The gap now between youth and first team has never been bigger, and thats the main reason why if a player doesn't feature for us at 19 and compete for first team spots, they likely never will.

I'd love to be proved wrong, but I am a realist.
Are you saying, categorically, that if Benson (or any other player) goes on loan to as League One club at age 20 then he is not and never will be good enough and we should get rid?

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Re: Benson

Post by superdimitri » Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:58 am

dsr wrote:Are you saying, categorically, that if Benson (or any other player) goes on loan to as League One club at age 20 then he is not and never will be good enough and we should get rid?
I don't need to say we will get rid, because I already know we will. If it doesn't happen when he's 20 it will happen when he's 21 or 22. If a youth prospect isn't good enough to being playing in a Championship side at 20 then he will likely be never be good enough to play for us.

You only need to look at the players we have released before from the development squad and look at the level to see they play at to see how big of a step up in quality it is for them compared to the first team. Not a single player has been good enough to get in a Championship team in recent years, even when they have been playing for a few years later. Most of them didn't even make league one level.
Last edited by superdimitri on Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Benson

Post by boatshed bill » Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:01 am

dsr wrote:Are you saying, categorically, that if Benson (or any other player) goes on loan to as League One club at age 20 then he is not and never will be good enough and we should get rid?
Wouldn't you agree that every year after 18 yrs old escalates the possibility that the young player will not make the grade?

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