England v Australia 4th Test

FCBurnley · Post by **FCBurnley** » Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:55 pm

kentonclaret wrote:Steve Smith has become the first batsman (from either country) to score 500 runs in three consecutive Ashes Series.

If he gets a million runs he will still be a convicted cheat. England’s bowling and fielding and captaincy has been a disgrace

kentonclaret · Post by **kentonclaret** » Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:57 pm

Found guilty of cheating just like Michael Atherton with a pocketful of topsoil.

Oh well, at least he can always get a well paid job with Sky.

If you believe cricketers were not cheating years ago you are very naive. The only difference is the lack of 6 Sky HD cameras at every ground. Good job they didn't have them when W G Grace played.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:05 pm

FCBurnley wrote:If he gets a million runs he will still be a convicted cheat. England’s bowling and fielding and captaincy has been a disgrace

Given that he didn’t actually do the cheating but accepted the responsibility as captain, I’d suggest he won’t always be a convicted cheat.

What he is, is a world class batsman and probably the best in the world right now.

FCBurnley · Post by **FCBurnley** » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:11 pm

ClaretTony wrote:Given that he didn’t actually do the cheating but accepted the responsibility as captain, I’d suggest he won’t always be a convicted cheat.

What he is, is a world class batsman and probably the best in the world right now.

So are you claiming that he had no prior knowledge of the sand paper plan ?

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:13 pm

FCBurnley wrote:So are you claiming that he had no prior knowledge of the sand paper plan ?

Not relevant but from what was said Warner was behind it and Bancroft did it. Either way he’s been convicted of nothing, he’s served his suspension and he’s a world class batsman.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:16 pm

Lyon & Starc have now put on over 50 and the total is fast approaching 500.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:18 pm

Declared on 497/8. England will have to bat for around 45 minutes.

FCBurnley · Post by **FCBurnley** » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:21 pm

ClaretTony wrote:Not relevant but from what was said Warner was behind it and Bancroft did it. Either way he’s been convicted of nothing, he’s served his suspension and he’s a world class batsman.

Of course it is relevant. If he was not involved and had no prior knowledge then he should never have been suspended. No one is disputing his ability as a batsman just his judgement as a former captain of his country

Burnley1989 · Post by **Burnley1989** » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:21 pm

What a rubbish day! Putting the garden furniture & BBQ to bed for the year and the Ashes being all but lost!

The mrs has the cheek to ask why I’m in a foul mood!

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:22 pm

FCBurnley wrote:Of course it is relevant. If he was not involved and had no prior knowledge then he should never have been suspended. No one is disputing his ability as a batsman just his judgement as a former captain of his country

You called him a convicted cheat which is nonsensical.

kentonclaret · Post by **kentonclaret** » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:23 pm

Players have been cheating at the game of cricket since the game was invented, players deliberately running on the pitch, claiming a catch that was never made. During the 2005 Ashes Series Trescothick admitted in his autobiography that England cheated by using the saliva from sweets to get the ball to swing more prodigiously, and to even experimenting to find the best type of mints to use before deciding on Murray Mints.

Burnley1989 · Post by **Burnley1989** » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:24 pm

FCBurnley wrote:Of course it is relevant. If he was not involved and had no prior knowledge then he should never have been suspended. No one is disputing his ability as a batsman just his judgement as a former captain of his country

They all knew about it, the head coach all but admitted it at a sportsman’s dinner the other week whilst saying every single team in the world does/did it. Perhaps he didn’t know it was sandpaper but if you’ve ever played cricket you know when a balls been tampered with

FCBurnley · Post by **FCBurnley** » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:24 pm

ClaretTony wrote:You called him a convicted cheat which is nonsensical.

So which word is wrong. Convicted or Cheat ?

FCBurnley · Post by **FCBurnley** » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:26 pm

kentonclaret wrote:Players have been cheating at the game of cricket since the game was invented, players deliberately running on the pitch, claiming a catch that was never made. During the 2005 Ashes Series Trescothick admitted in his autobiography that England cheated by using the saliva from sweets to get the ball to swing more prodigiously, and to even experimenting to find the best type of mints to use before deciding on Murray Mints.

So that makes any subsequent cheating ok ?

Foulthrow · Post by **Foulthrow** » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:27 pm

Shocking from England, really poor. Can see a tumble of wickets coming now.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:29 pm

Foulthrow wrote:Shocking from England, really poor. Can see a tumble of wickets coming now.

As long as Ben Stokes is there we have hope!

FCBurnley · Post by **FCBurnley** » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:30 pm

Spijed wrote:As long as Ben Stokes is there we have hope!

If his shoulder is ok

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:34 pm

We just need to put on a quick 500-600 in the next session or two and it’s game on.

willsclarets · Post by **willsclarets** » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:37 pm

Rileybobs wrote:We just need to put on a quick 500-600 in the next session or two and it’s game on.

Or, please let it rain for the vast majority of those sessions.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:53 pm

The performance of Ben Stokes in the previous test match masked many of England's problems which are still there on display.

willsclarets · Post by **willsclarets** » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:54 pm

Not to mention if Steve Smith hadn't been concussed, we'd have almost certainly lost

FCBurnley · Post by **FCBurnley** » Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:03 pm

Aussies don’t drop catches like we do. Catches win matches

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:03 pm

Denly fails again 10-1 wicket for Cummins

is it too early for a rain dance.

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:24 pm

willsclarets wrote:Or, please let it rain for the vast majority of those sessions.

Forecast for tomorrow is wet until around lunchtime,and then drier in the afternoon,any rain would be helpful for England.

The bottom line is England have to bat well in this 1st innings,the pitch is good so it's just a case of putting a score on the board and batting time,it's hard to see how England can win this test but a draw is possible with application and patience.

This situation is a good test of England's character and mentality,we'll see what their made of over the next few days.

23-1 at the close Burns and Overton together.

FCBurnley · Post by **FCBurnley** » Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:26 pm

What is wrong with Archer ? Trouble between him and Root maybe ? Or injured

willsclarets · Post by **willsclarets** » Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:47 pm

FCBurnley wrote:What is wrong with Archer ? Trouble between him and Root maybe ? Or injured

I think they overworked him in the last test, he's new to test cricket and at this level we asked a little too much I think. I don't know why root doesn't fancy him, but woakes should've bowled more before he was dropped.

jrgbfc · Post by **jrgbfc** » Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:28 pm

Have to think if Smith played at Headingley in two knocks he'd have scored enough runs to have put the game and the Ashes out of our reach.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:30 pm

jrgbfc wrote:Have to think if Smith played at Headingley in two knocks he'd have scored enough runs to have put the game and the Ashes out of our reach.

His injury has helped them though. They’ve now found another batsman who can score runs with ease against us.

jrgbfc · Post by **jrgbfc** » Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:35 pm

ClaretTony wrote:His injury has helped them though. They’ve now found another batsman who can score runs with ease against us.

Yes it doesn't say much for the Aussie selectors really. Laubuschagne has looked a far better player than Khawaja, Head and Wade, but if it wasn't for Smith's injury he'd have probably been stuck carrying the drinks all series.

Pidgeon · Post by **Pidgeon** » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:05 pm

FCBurnley...Steve Smith was banned from cricket for 12 months for his part in the ball tampering episode. He also lost his captaincy. He has already stated that he did the wrong thing and apologised. He has now done his time and has returned. Yes he made a serious mistake but he won’t be the first or the last. Have you ever made a mistake? Anyway, enjoy his batting as it could be a while before you see anything better.

Dyched · Post by **Dyched** » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:49 pm

Pidgeon wrote:FCBurnley...Steve Smith was banned from cricket for 12 months for his part in the ball tampering episode. He also lost his captaincy. He has already stated that he did the wrong thing and apologised. He has now done his time and has returned. Yes he made a serious mistake but he won’t be the first or the last. Have you ever made a mistake? Anyway, enjoy his batting as it could be a while before you see anything better.

There’s mistakes like shitting yourself. But shitting on someones head isn’t. There’s a huge difference.

FCBurnley · Post by **FCBurnley** » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:40 pm

Pidgeon wrote:FCBurnley...Steve Smith was banned from cricket for 12 months for his part in the ball tampering episode. He also lost his captaincy. He has already stated that he did the wrong thing and apologised. He has now done his time and has returned. Yes he made a serious mistake but he won’t be the first or the last. Have you ever made a mistake? Anyway, enjoy his batting as it could be a while before you see anything better.

I watched an innings in the last test that was vastly superior than anything Steve Smith has ever done and probably ever will do. Smith has skill and boundless patience that is perfect for test cricket. But in my opinion he made a huge error of judgement that embarrassed him and his Country. Just what message did Smiths actions send to the thousands of youngsters who watch and play cricket. In my opinion the punishment did not fit the crime. You clearly have a different view.

Pidgeon · Post by **Pidgeon** » Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:40 am

There will always be examples of great individual innings. Smiths current batting average is second to Bradman and that puts him at the very top of the game. I agree with you by the way in respect of his error of judgement and impact on the game ? However, it sounds like your issue is with the punishment handed out and he cant be blamed for that. Following the incident, he made a public apology, he served the time he was banned for, he has worked tirelessly on mental health issues and visited many schools. Shouldn't people be given a second chance?

ashtonlongsider · Post by **ashtonlongsider** » Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:08 am

Englands performance in the field yesterday looked dishevelled and lacked discipline. A series of missed catches along with some poor bowling have helped place Australia in a insurmountable. You've got to take your chances against Smith, they don't come along so ofter. May not look orthodox in the crease but he's up there with the very best. Of those I've seen live second only to Viv Richards imo.

Dark Cloud · Post by **Dark Cloud** » Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:22 am

Pidgeon wrote:FCBurnley...Steve Smith was banned from cricket for 12 months for his part in the ball tampering episode. He also lost his captaincy. He has already stated that he did the wrong thing and apologised. He has now done his time and has returned. Yes he made a serious mistake but he won’t be the first or the last. Have you ever made a mistake? Anyway, enjoy his batting as it could be a while before you see anything better.

There has always been "gamesmanship" even in cricket and imo the very word gamesmanship is just a polite word for very polite cheating and teams have always been mucking around with the ball in some way or other, even shining it on your trousers is in effect tampering with the ball. BUT what Smith and co were doing took it well beyond that grey area of gamesmanship and over the line into downright and obvious cheating. They got caught, pilloried and done. Time to move on and focus on the cricket. The main issue I personally have with Smith is that he's so bizarre in the way he plays and scores his runs (and if anything he is getting more bizarre by the day!) that young cricketers will try to emulate him and it really won't work. His style is totally unique and can only really work for him. Barely anything he does is in the coaching books!!

kentonclaret · Post by **kentonclaret** » Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:24 am

So, after testing out various types of sweets for their effectiveness, taking a packet of Murray Mints onto the field of play to impart a sugary saliva on to the ball to facilitate greater shine and swing isn't "downright and obvious cheating". This is what Trescothick admitted to doing during the 2005 Ashes Series. The fact that he was not caught in the act is irrelevant and purely by chance. In his book he says that at one point the packet of sweets fell out of his pocket and he was sure that he would be discovered.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:01 pm

Finally underway. Overton out quickly and now 43/2.

karatekid · Post by **karatekid** » Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:27 pm

Root 66

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:29 pm

kentonclaret wrote:So, after testing out various types of sweets for their effectiveness, taking a packet of Murray Mints onto the field of play to impart a sugary saliva on to the ball to facilitate greater shine and swing isn't "downright and obvious cheating". This is what Trescothick admitted to doing during the 2005 Ashes Series. The fact that he was not caught in the act is irrelevant and purely by chance. In his book he says that at one point the packet of sweets fell out of his pocket and he was sure that he would be discovered.

I wouldn't think anyone who plays cricket would cry foul at the fielding side having sweets to help shine the ball.

Most people responsible for the shine hate any moisture going near it at all. With the belief the heat from friction alters it to their advantage.

The other thing on Steve Smith people are forgetting is the DRS review when he asked the coaching staff on the balcony what to do. That is outright cheating.

Ashingtonclaret46 · Post by **Ashingtonclaret46** » Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:00 pm

Watching England since play resumed, I have to agree with David Gower that we need to show a bit more aggression because, although we are occupying the crease we are not scoring very many and it allows the bowlers to keep on top.
The problem comes when we lose a couple of wickets and we are still hundreds behind, we can be quite fragile in our batting and the Aussies know this ---fingers crossed for survival.

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:39 pm

This has been a good partnership,and gives England a chance of building a strong reply,need one or both of this pair to post a 100+,another excellent 50 from Rory Burns,whatever happens in the rest of this series he'll be on the plane to New Zealand.

Deficit's still nearly 400 though so plenty of work yet to do,England need to still be batting at this time tomorrow,forecast for the weekend is set fair.

Clearly survival is paramount but Ashington raises a valid point runs are important as well,positivity is fine as long as it's not reckless controlled aggression is the key.

JohnMac · Post by **JohnMac** » Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:46 pm

Some of the MCC types must look at Flintoff wearing his Jacamo wardrobe and think 'Bloody disgraceful'

Ashingtonclaret46 · Post by **Ashingtonclaret46** » Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:52 pm

JohnMac wrote:Some of the MCC types must look at Flintoff wearing his Jacamo wardrobe and think 'Bloody disgraceful'

They never liked him anyway ---too straight for them. I'll bet that he really cares

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:23 pm

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote:Watching England since play resumed, I have to agree with David Gower that we need to show a bit more aggression because, although we are occupying the crease we are not scoring very many and it allows the bowlers to keep on top.
The problem comes when we lose a couple of wickets and we are still hundreds behind, we can be quite fragile in our batting and the Aussies know this ---fingers crossed for survival.

The only problem in Cricket as you will know, the watching public will come down heavy on any dismissal.

Just like on here when Archer attacked Lyon and hit him for a couple of boundaries, then got caught. He got pelters for it, despite taking the attack back to them and the spinner probably being the only one he could attack.

FCBurnley · Post by **FCBurnley** » Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:38 pm

Dark Cloud wrote:There has always been "gamesmanship" even in cricket and imo the very word gamesmanship is just a polite word for very polite cheating and teams have always been mucking around with the ball in some way or other, even shining it on your trousers is in effect tampering with the ball. BUT what Smith and co were doing took it well beyond that grey area of gamesmanship and over the line into downright and obvious cheating. They got caught, pilloried and done. Time to move on and focus on the cricket. The main issue I personally have with Smith is that he's so bizarre in the way he plays and scores his runs (and if anything he is getting more bizarre by the day!) that young cricketers will try to emulate him and it really won't work. His style is totally unique and can only really work for him. Barely anything he does is in the coaching books!!

Totally agree about Smiths bizarre style. Yesterday he even chased a ball behind the stumps and hit it away from the keeper as he was trying to collect it ! Bairstow had a real go at him. Think he might be a ball or two short of an over

FCBurnley · Post by **FCBurnley** » Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:53 pm

Pidgeon wrote:There will always be examples of great individual innings. Smiths current batting average is second to Bradman and that puts him at the very top of the game. I agree with you by the way in respect of his error of judgement and impact on the game ? However, it sounds like your issue is with the punishment handed out and he cant be blamed for that. Following the incident, he made a public apology, he served the time he was banned for, he has worked tirelessly on mental health issues and visited many schools. Shouldn't people be given a second chance?

You are right when you say my issue is with the punishment. I believe the length of Smiths ( and others) suspension decided by The AUSTRALIAN cricket board was based not on his crime but on the upcoming fixtures. They were desperate to win The World Cup and The Ashes and so a 12 month ban fit the bill nicely. Long enough to look like they cared what had happened and short enough to give them a chance in the WC and Ashes by conveniently reinstating Smith Warner and Bancroft ahead of The World Cup Ashes Tour.
In answer to your final question......it depends what they did wrong. What the Australian team did was bad for the game,Australia and the players involved. I would be mortified if an English captain committed the same offence.

FCBurnley · Post by **FCBurnley** » Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:07 pm

Big let off for Root. He needs to do a Smith now and make em pay

Ashingtonclaret46 · Post by **Ashingtonclaret46** » Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:35 pm

I'm pleased to see two of our batsmen managing to put a partnership together which has lasted 44 overs --it is a surprise the way that we have been batting recently.

FCBurnley · Post by **FCBurnley** » Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:46 pm

Very impressed with Burns. They have both done well but Burns is doing exactly what you want from your opener

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:52 pm

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote:I'm pleased to see two of our batsmen managing to put a partnership together which has lasted 44 overs --it is a surprise the way that we have been batting recently.

One or two worrying moments but a good partnership. First target is to get to 298 to avoid the follow on. The concern is this brittle batting of ours and losing one wicket could cause big problems for us.