Concussion substitutes

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aggi
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Concussion substitutes

Post by aggi » Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:49 am

It's looking like new rules will be coming in soon for temporary 10 minutes subs whilst players are assessed for concussion.

Hardly surprising, football has been way, way behind other sports on this.

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Re: Concussion substitutes

Post by ClaretTony » Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:55 am

It's necessary - you can't take risks with players. They are probably being pushed back on when they shouldn't, particularly when all the subs have already been made.

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Re: Concussion substitutes

Post by Bordeauxclaret » Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:58 am

Will it have to be like for like position wise?

Or could a side hanging on to a 1-0 score line see the striker go down with a head injury after 81 minutes to be replaced with a defender?

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Re: Concussion substitutes

Post by Burnley1989 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:01 am

That’s a good point

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Re: Concussion substitutes

Post by Bosscat » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:09 am

I am stunned that the FA/PL are actually at last considering this.

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Re: Concussion substitutes

Post by ClaretTony » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:17 am

Bosscat wrote:I am stunned that the FA/PL are actually at last considering this.
International decision isn't it? So not FA/PL.

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Re: Concussion substitutes

Post by claptrappers_union » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:27 am

Interesting, I wonder if the substitute has to be the player who comes back off if the player with the head injury is safe to come back on... Can a manager use the concussion substitute if the team has already made 3 changes?

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Re: Concussion substitutes

Post by Cleveleys_claret » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:29 am

This is going to be abused so much. Dont know the solution but this isnt it. As said above you will have teams subbing strikers for defenders for "concussion" if they are winning. How long will it take a physio/ref/doctor on the pitch to say I think he has concussion? Who has the overridig decision? Imagine a club in the lower tiers has a goalkeeper who gets concussed but no GK on the bench? What if your GK has been sent off or gone off injured and the concussed player is your other GK?

Can even imagine certain managers telling their players to accidently stick the nut on an opposing player when in the air challenging at corners or when a ball comes up. Doing this with the aim of taking the danger man of the opposing team out of the game for the last ten mins or when said player seems to be getting on top

If a player is truly concussed his manager should be bringing him off the pitch regardless of being able to substitute them.

The way the game is going I think in 10 years it will be a game I will no longer recognise and not be interested in watching. With the way VAR is overtaking every goal and taking the emotion out of the game.

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Re: Concussion substitutes

Post by Darthlaw » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:35 am

What happens if the team has used all their substitutes? Do they get an additional one for concussion?

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Re: Concussion substitutes

Post by bfcmik » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:42 am

Cleveleys_claret wrote:The way the game is going I think in 10 years it will be a game I will no longer recognise and not be interested in watching. With the way VAR is overtaking every goal and taking the emotion out of the game.
People have been saying that for decades - and are still watching and supporting football teams. The game today is almost unrecognisable from the game I started watching in 1960. Even the amateur game is nothing like it was back then. Rules have altered almost every season, sometimes for the better but often to the 'detriment' of the game (in my opinion). For instance,Tte offside rule has been changed many, many times and each time becomes less black and white and much more subjective about whether a player was interfering with play, were they coming back from an offside position and still in the same phase of play is differently interpreted by different linesmen and referees, indeed it can be viewed differently by the same linesmen or referee in the same game.

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Re: Concussion substitutes

Post by Dyched » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:11 am

Cleveleys_claret wrote:This is going to be abused so much. Dont know the solution but this isnt it. As said above you will have teams subbing strikers for defenders for "concussion" if they are winning. How long will it take a physio/ref/doctor on the pitch to say I think he has concussion? Who has the overridig decision? Imagine a club in the lower tiers has a goalkeeper who gets concussed but no GK on the bench? What if your GK has been sent off or gone off injured and the concussed player is your other GK?

Can even imagine certain managers telling their players to accidently stick the nut on an opposing player when in the air challenging at corners or when a ball comes up. Doing this with the aim of taking the danger man of the opposing team out of the game for the last ten mins or when said player seems to be getting on top

If a player is truly concussed his manager should be bringing him off the pitch regardless of being able to substitute them.

The way the game is going I think in 10 years it will be a game I will no longer recognise and not be interested in watching. With the way VAR is overtaking every goal and taking the emotion out of the game.
Players very rarely get head injuries in football. People are making out it happens in every game. It doesn’t. Purposely taking a “danger man” out of the game for the last 10 minutes? Really? If managers are gonna be doing this surely they’ll tell their players to break his legs in the first 5 minutes rather than giving the “danger man” 80 minutes to inflict damage.

No longer recognise and not interested? Yeah, let’s let players carry on with whatever head injuries they have. **** their wives, sons, daughters. Fans are more important.

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Re: Concussion substitutes

Post by dsr » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:30 am

When substitutions first came in, it was only for injured players. It was remarkable how many players got slight injuries with 20 minutes to go.

It might help if this 10 minute rule was brought in for all head injuries. If the ref has to stop play for a head injury, that player must go off for 10 minutes regardless. Because most "head injuries" are bogus anyway,, just used as a way to stop play or waste time or try to get someone else sent off.

Perhaps the best way to protect players would be to tell players to stop cheating. If players want to consistently lie about head injuries, it's hard to help them.
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Re: Concussion substitutes

Post by ClaretTony » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:44 am

Darthlaw wrote:What happens if the team has used all their substitutes? Do they get an additional one for concussion?
The way I've read it yes, but it is a decision that will be made by the medical staff attending the player and not by the manager.

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Re: Concussion substitutes

Post by duncandisorderly » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:10 pm

ClaretTony wrote:The way I've read it yes, but it is a decision that will be made by the medical staff attending the player and not by the manager.
independent medical staff or club staff?

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Re: Concussion substitutes

Post by ClaretTony » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:19 pm

duncandisorderly wrote:independent medical staff or club staff?
Don’t know but medical staff have to act accordingly

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Re: Concussion substitutes

Post by gandhisflipflop » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:20 pm

Dyched wrote:Players very rarely get head injuries in football. People are making out it happens in every game. It doesn’t. Purposely taking a “danger man” out of the game for the last 10 minutes? Really? If managers are gonna be doing this surely they’ll tell their players to break his legs in the first 5 minutes rather than giving the “danger man” 80 minutes to inflict damage.

No longer recognise and not interested? Yeah, let’s let players carry on with whatever head injuries they have. **** their wives, sons, daughters. Fans are more important.

The way I read it I don't think he is saying that football is more important than a players health or family etc, he is viewing it from a footballing perspective and I think he has a point. I'd much rather the game be stopped for the referees and coaches and medical teams etc to take as much time as they need.

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Re: Concussion substitutes

Post by Firthy » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:55 pm

Maybe it would be easier to just have rolling subs like rugby. So you can be subbed for whatever reason and then go back on later. Might make the pace of the game faster.

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Re: Concussion substitutes

Post by Darnhill Claret » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:57 pm

Genuine head injuries are usually the result of a clash of heads, so there will usually be another player rolling around hurt. Another type of injury is when someone takes a full in the face blast maybe from a piledriver shot, or a keeper who dives at the feet of a player.

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Re: Concussion substitutes

Post by dsr » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:00 pm

ClaretTony wrote:The way I've read it yes, but it is a decision that will be made by the medical staff attending the player and not by the manager.
If the player says "My head's spinning a bit", then the medical staff will have to take him off anyway. As soon as he is off, he can say that he is fine and will pass all the concussion protocols.

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Re: Concussion substitutes

Post by ClaretTony » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:20 pm

dsr wrote:If the player says "My head's spinning a bit", then the medical staff will have to take him off anyway. As soon as he is off, he can say that he is fine and will pass all the concussion protocols.
I assume so if you think it’s that simple

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Re: Concussion substitutes

Post by Paulclaret » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:25 pm

I wouldn't be surprised if any player who has to leave the field with concussion, automatically misses the next game. Therefore it would seem unlikely that any player would fake an injury in order to get another player on.

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Re: Concussion substitutes

Post by dsr » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:34 pm

ClaretTony wrote:I assume so if you think it’s that simple
Definitely. What's the insurance company going to say if. down the line, someone is giving evidence that the player said he was suffering symptoms of concussion but I decided he was wrong? Medical professionals have to err on the side of caution.

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Re: Concussion substitutes

Post by Goobs » Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:36 pm

It's quite funny how averse to change some people can be. They are looking to bring in something that may potentially save lives or prevent further damage to players, and people start moaning that it will be abused and ruin the game.

Anyway i'm off to listen to a record and watch a VCR... :D

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Re: Concussion substitutes

Post by aggi » Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:41 pm

duncandisorderly wrote:independent medical staff or club staff?
The suggestion is that it will be the club staff. It seems that the experiences from rugby are that staff who know the players are better placed to assessed their condition. They may be monitored by independent staff though.

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Re: Concussion substitutes

Post by dsr » Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:16 pm

aggi wrote:The suggestion is that it will be the club staff. It seems that the experiences from rugby are that staff who know the players are better placed to assessed their condition. They may be monitored by independent staff though.
And if the club staff are told "we want to bring on an extra defender, go and check whether the centre forward might have concussion" ...

If a player says he is feeling a bit so-so and it might be concussion, there is no way they would be allowed to tell him to play on. Concussion tests can be used to indicate that someone has concussion when he is denying it, but I'll bet a pound to a penny that they don't work the other way round.

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Re: Concussion substitutes

Post by wilks_bfc » Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:24 pm

Simple answer to those saying teams will "cheat" to bring on another sub is if a player is replaced by the "concussion sub", then he automatically misses the games over the next 7 days

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Re: Concussion substitutes

Post by dsr » Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:33 pm

wilks_bfc wrote:Simple answer to those saying teams will "cheat" to bring on another sub is if a player is replaced by the "concussion sub", then he automatically misses the games over the next 7 days
But that makes it all the more certain that a player who is genuinely concussed will try and hide it because he's desperate not to miss a week, so it more or less negates the original purpose. It's a problem. It's virtually impossible, I reckon, to produce a system that is fair to genuinely concussed players but can't be taken advantage of by cheats.

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Re: Concussion substitutes

Post by Cleveleys_claret » Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:35 pm

ClaretTony wrote:Don’t know but medical staff have to act accordingly
Worked well at Chelsea that when Mourinho was in charge didnt it

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Re: Concussion substitutes

Post by Cleveleys_claret » Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:43 pm

Goobs wrote:It's quite funny how averse to change some people can be. They are looking to bring in something that may potentially save lives or prevent further damage to players, and people start moaning that it will be abused and ruin the game.

Anyway i'm off to listen to a record and watch a VCR... :D
So what is the difference between this and players over exerting themselves and possibly risking a heart attack...which happens quite regular compared to a head injury which as far as I know has never killed anyone on the pitch? Should all players wear heart monitors and if their rate reaches a certain level we sub them for 10 mins to allow their heart to settle down

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Re: Concussion substitutes

Post by aggi » Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:24 pm

dsr wrote:But that makes it all the more certain that a player who is genuinely concussed will try and hide it because he's desperate not to miss a week, so it more or less negates the original purpose. It's a problem. It's virtually impossible, I reckon, to produce a system that is fair to genuinely concussed players but can't be taken advantage of by cheats.
It isn't that easy to hide it. They do things like reflex tests, a computer based assessment where your responses are compared to prior responses, etc.

I reckon it won't be that long until we're on to 4 or maybe even 5 subs in a match anyway so that will make even less of a difference.

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Re: Concussion substitutes

Post by Goobs » Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:40 pm

Cleveleys_claret wrote:So what is the difference between this and players over exerting themselves and possibly risking a heart attack...which happens quite regular compared to a head injury which as far as I know has never killed anyone on the pitch? Should all players wear heart monitors and if their rate reaches a certain level we sub them for 10 mins to allow their heart to settle down
I think (and I admit I may be wrong here) but don't players get regular heart checks now and train with heart monitoring vests on so that the medical team can asses and look to manage the players to help try and avoid this type of thing happening. Not something you can really do with a potential blow to the head.

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Re: Concussion substitutes

Post by ClaretTony » Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:49 pm

Cleveleys_claret wrote:Worked well at Chelsea that when Mourinho was in charge didnt it
That was just shocking from one individual

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Re: Concussion substitutes

Post by IanMcL » Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:38 am

Pundits will soon be discussing the 'right time' to bring on the concussion sub.

Players will receive coaching on how to mimic concussion.

Any other injury, stitches etc, which could take some time, are ignored. Play with 10 or make a substitution.

Cant see the need. Just proper care.

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