VAR Penalty 2nd Half?

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Re: VAR Penalty 2nd Half?

Post by Burtonwoodclaret » Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:51 pm

In Rugby League everybody watching the game can see the Video Ref footage on screen. This wouldn’t have necessarily have helped us , as the referee didn’t call for VAR, but it would possibly have put the VAR ref under scrutiny with the Urs offside.

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Re: VAR Penalty 2nd Half?

Post by Rick_Muller » Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:54 pm

Burtonwoodclaret wrote:In Rugby League everybody watching the game can see the Video Ref footage on screen. This wouldn’t have necessarily have helped us , as the referee didn’t call for VAR, but it would possibly have put the VAR ref under scrutiny with the Urs offside.
I watched a live stream of the game and the Ref did go to VAR for the Barnes penalty incident, the footage showed Ben Mee consulting with the ref too, as he confirmed no penalty.

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Re: VAR Penalty 2nd Half?

Post by claptrappers_union » Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:57 pm

It wouldn’t have helped, with decisions like the Barnes incident, I believe VAR would’ve gone along with the Ref if he gave the penalty anyway.

It’s not about getting the correct decision.
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Re: VAR Penalty 2nd Half?

Post by Hibsclaret » Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:06 pm

claptrappers_union wrote:
It’s not about getting the correct decision.
Spot on. Until it becomes about getting the correct decision VAR will be next to useless. It’s a bit like having a brand new toy for Christmas with no batteries....

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Re: VAR Penalty 2nd Half?

Post by claptrappers_union » Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:23 pm

Hibsclaret wrote:Spot on. Until it becomes about getting the correct decision VAR will be next to useless. It’s a bit like having a brand new toy for Christmas with no batteries....
Or the batteries with no toy

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Re: VAR Penalty 2nd Half?

Post by bfccrazy » Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:05 pm

claptrappers_union wrote:It’s two referees watching the game on a screen, when they see an incident they press a button which timestamps that moment of play for review.

The only incident where Stockly Park contacted the Ref (other than the two goals) was for the Barnes penalty shout.
Once they press for a review, what happens?

Does the on field ref get a “buzz” and has a choice if he wants to review it?

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Re: VAR Penalty 2nd Half?

Post by martin_p » Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:50 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Thought it was a pen but not one that should have been overturned once the ref didnt give it. What I would say is that the contact wasnt that strong and Barnes threw his hands up in the air and went down like he had been shot.

The way Barnes went down is exactly what a lot of folk on this board go mad about when opposition players do it calling them soft and cheats whilst we think ourselves so virtuous.

I think the analogy Ive seen on here is about if that contact happened stood at work. Well if someone lightly kicked Barnes shin no way would he throw his arms up, fall over in a heap and scream in agony. He'd probably just flinch his leg and give the other bloke a smack round the chops.
Have another look, he didn’t throw his hands in the air. He put them towards the ground to break his fall like anyone would.

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Re: VAR Penalty 2nd Half?

Post by claptrappers_union » Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:58 pm

bfccrazy wrote:Once they press for a review, what happens?

Does the on field ref get a “buzz” and has a choice if he wants to review it?
No, the VAR officials tell the ref they want to review it and instruct him not to restart play. That’s the delay.

Then they just say ‘Check Complete’ and the game restarts.
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Re: VAR Penalty 2nd Half?

Post by tim_noone » Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:25 am

scouseclaret wrote:I can’t believe the ref didn’t give it - it happened right in front of him!

As regards VAR, I’m beginning to suspect that the Premier League, in the way they’ve chosen to apply it, is deliberately trying to discredit it so we’ll all agree to scrapping it. It’s no secret that the big clubs don’t want it.
Apart from Arsenal.... once Again a Penalty incident went their way. There's a shock!! :o

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Re: VAR Penalty 2nd Half?

Post by Colburn_Claret » Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:28 am

tim_noone wrote:Apart from Arsenal.... once Again a Penalty incident went their way. There's a shock!! :o
Virtual Arsenal Reality

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Re: VAR Penalty 2nd Half?

Post by simonclaret » Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:46 am

claptrappers_union wrote:No, the VAR officials tell the ref they want to review it and instruct him not to restart play. That’s the delay.

Then they just say ‘Check Complete’ and the game restarts.
On this occasion though there was no break in play which presumably puts more pressure on the VAR to make a quicker decision?

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Re: VAR Penalty 2nd Half?

Post by claptrappers_union » Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:50 am

simonclaret wrote:On this occasion though there was no break in play which presumably puts more pressure on the VAR to make a quicker decision?
As soon as Barnes went down and Cootes waved play on, Kevin Friend instructed him not to restart play as they were looking at it again.

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Re: VAR Penalty 2nd Half?

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:55 am

Looked a stone waller from the JHU, looked a stone waller from Match of the Day.

Refs too worried about the man in the middle being over-scrutinised so they are backing him up despite them making the wrong calls?

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Re: VAR Penalty 2nd Half?

Post by martin_p » Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:28 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Looked a stone waller from the JHU, looked a stone waller from Match of the Day.

Refs too worried about the man in the middle being over-scrutinised so they are backing him up despite them making the wrong calls?
It’s bizarre though isn’t it. The very act of introducing VAR indicates they know that refs make mistakes, they are only human after all. But the way VAR is being used adds fuel to the fire of those that think there’s a referees conspiracy against their team. Most rational people can accept that mistakes are made and that sometimes teams just get a run of bad luck with decisions going against them. But now when the referee makes what seems to be an obvious mistake and It isn’t corrected you start to wonder!
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Re: VAR Penalty 2nd Half?

Post by simonclaret » Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:55 am

claptrappers_union wrote:As soon as Barnes went down and Cootes waved play on, Kevin Friend instructed him not to restart play as they were looking at it again.
Surely if he "waved play on" there was no break in play, hence no restart. Are you saying he delayed the restart when the ball was next dead?

I guess my point is that had the play moved on quickly, it must inevitably put pressure on the VAR to make a quick call on whether to back to ref, to avoid an embarrassing situation where the other team have scored and they bring it back for a penalty for an incident a couple of minutes earlier.

He was well placed and must've been able to see the foul on Barnes. The safest was to proceed would surely have been to award the penalty, safe in the knowledge that it could be overturned if the VAR could see a fair challenge or that it was outside the box.

Overall VAR to work has to be absolute, i.e. call the right decision regardless of the on-field decision. Feels too much like it will side with the decision of the ref by default and the "high bar" to overturn is a cop-out.

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Re: VAR Penalty 2nd Half?

Post by simonclaret » Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:55 am

claptrappers_union wrote:As soon as Barnes went down and Cootes waved play on, Kevin Friend instructed him not to restart play as they were looking at it again.
Also, there was nothing announced or on the screen to indicate a review was taking place.

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Re: VAR Penalty 2nd Half?

Post by claptrappers_union » Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:07 am

simonclaret wrote:Surely if he "waved play on" there was no break in play, hence no restart. Are you saying he delayed the restart when the ball was next dead?
Yes, that's it pretty much - there was a short delay when we won a free-kick when the ball was cleared away
simonclaret wrote:Also, there was nothing announced or on the screen to indicate a review was taking place.
Not all VAR checks go onto the big screen. I think they only go onto the screen when it's going to take some time.
claptrappers_union wrote:The only incident where Stockly Park contacted the Ref (other than the two goals) was for the Barnes penalty shout.
I've remembered there was actually another VAR check - I think it was in the first half when a Norwich defenders outstretched leg caught Westwoods foot - again, nothing came of it though.
Last edited by claptrappers_union on Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: VAR Penalty 2nd Half?

Post by Tall Paul » Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:15 am

simonclaret wrote:Overall VAR to work has to be absolute, i.e. call the right decision regardless of the on-field decision. Feels too much like it will side with the decision of the ref by default and the "high bar" to overturn is a cop-out.
When there's an element of subjectivity, there is no "right" decision, which is why they're running VAR in the way they are.
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Re: VAR Penalty 2nd Half?

Post by NottsClaret » Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:18 am

Honestly think it would help to call it 'the telly ref' instead of VAR. 'VAR' sounds like some all-seeing technology churning out machine-like correct decisions. It's just a another man in front of a TV in an office somewhere. It's hardly new technology, we've had tellies for quite a while now.

It's never, ever going to give 'correct' decisions, just more opinions. If you watch back any episode of Match of the Day or Sky's analysis you'll see around 90% of decisions still being debated one way or the other hours or even days later.

Brought in to eliminate clearly 'wrong' decisions like Barnes' penalty, and yet there it was. VAR approved. So now it'll be 'we're not using VAR correctly'. Or not enough. And it'll go on and on like that until every fan gets every decision they want. Good luck with that.

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Re: VAR Penalty 2nd Half?

Post by claptrappers_union » Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:22 am

NottsClaret wrote:Honestly think it would help to call it 'the telly ref' instead of VAR. 'VAR' sounds like some all-seeing technology churning out machine-like correct decisions. It's just another man in front of a TV in an office somewhere. It's hardly new technology, we've had tellies for quite a while now.
Its a bit more than that but essentially your right - here's an interesting video about how it works - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMca8EPQmwU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: VAR Penalty 2nd Half?

Post by martin_p » Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:23 am

Tall Paul wrote:When there's an element of subjectivity, there is no "right" decision, which is why they're running VAR in the way they are.
But then VAR can only be used for offside (which has a margin of error anyway) and mistaken identity then as every other decision has an element of subjectivity. If they don’t want to use VAR to overturn subjective decisions then they need to stop pretending they are.

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Re: VAR Penalty 2nd Half?

Post by Tall Paul » Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:28 am

martin_p wrote:But then VAR can only be used for offside (which has a margin of error anyway) and mistaken identity then as every other decision has an element of subjectivity. If they don’t want to use VAR to overturn subjective decisions then they need to stop pretending they are.
And handballs leading to goals. I think they've said that they'll use it if a referee has missed a red card or penalty incident altogether, but don't think that's happened yet.

I agree that they should stop pretending, but that's obviously how it's being applied at the moment.

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Re: VAR Penalty 2nd Half?

Post by simonclaret » Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:37 am

Tall Paul wrote:When there's an element of subjectivity, there is no "right" decision, which is why they're running VAR in the way they are.
Absolute in the sense that the VAR should make a decision based on the replays they have access to, rather than being reluctant to overrule the on-field ref's decision whether positive or negative. Looking at the replays I'd be very surprised if the vast majority of refs would say no penalty for the kick on Barnes' legs in the area.

As you say, it's down to the way it's being applied at the moment which does seem to be contrary to what Mike Riley was saying in the international break.

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Re: VAR Penalty 2nd Half?

Post by martin_p » Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:39 am

Tall Paul wrote:And handballs leading to goals. I think they've said that they'll use it if a referee has missed a red card or penalty incident altogether, but don't think that's happened yet.
But that’s one of the inconsistencies that’s going to lead to big problems for VAR (and football). The referee saw the Barnes penalty incident but didn’t give it even though replays showed it was pretty much a penalty as you can get. But some lesser offence, like a slight tug on someone’s shirt by a defender, that the referee didn’t see will likely lead to a penalty

Meanwhile, the offside rule that was brought in to stop attacking players gaining too much of an advantage, is being interpreted as meaning an attacker’s shoulder is a cm further forward than a defender’s knee! This despite the fact that we know the tv technology used has a potential margin of error of 30cm.

For VAR to gain any sort of credibility then offsides probably need to go the way of LBWs in cricket, I.e. within certain margins (say 30cm either way) VAR has to say it’s ‘linesman call’. In addition is has to start challenging and overturning the game changing decisions referees make more readily. I don’t think you’d have heard a word of complaint from the Norwich camp had VAR given that penalty on Saturday. The pictures were clear!

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Re: VAR Penalty 2nd Half?

Post by TVC15 » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:13 pm

VAR is being applied to “absolute decisions” in relation to offside and handballs - and quite correctly it’s most of these decisions that are leading to criticism and controversy as they are ruining the game as a spectacle.
For all other other decisions - fouls, penalties, red cards, diving etc - then for whatever reason they are making al it’s as many mistakes as previous seasons. This could well be protect the officials - but that is ridiculous.
Everybody accepts how difficult a job refereeing is - especially now with the pace of the game, the money at stake and also the vast increase in players who are very good at cheating. VAR was supposed to make this better for the game and for the big game changing decisions.

As for linesmen I am genuinely not sure what the point of them is now. They are so reluctant to make any decisions they very rarely put their flag up for anything other than offside....and we know now that VAR is going to overrule them on that anyway. For the umpteenth time this season on the Turf there was a blatant foul 2 yards from the linesman on Saturday - this week it was a very obvious push which everyone in the bob lord and lower JM could see - and the linesman did nothing.

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Re: VAR Penalty 2nd Half?

Post by claptrappers_union » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:52 pm

If it was up to me with offsides, I'd ban the slow-motion replay on television when it comes to offsides. I've never felt it was fair to slow down and freeze-frame the offside line and then have pundits and managers berate the officials in post-match discussions.

Replays of goals and chances should be broadcast in normal time from the 'GDS' angle. Use slow-mo for all the close up shots and seeing ball curl into the top corner but not for offsides.

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Re: VAR Penalty 2nd Half?

Post by ClaretTony » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:53 pm

Dermot Gallagher said on SSN this morning that it's a penalty, but, having said that, only a fool would say otherwise. He also suggested that it wasn't overturned by Kevin Friend (VAR) because it didn't reach the threshold for clear and obvious but Gallagher made it clear and obvious that it should have been.
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Re: VAR Penalty 2nd Half?

Post by claptrappers_union » Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:08 pm

ClaretTony wrote:Dermot Gallagher said on SSN this morning that it's a penalty, but, having said that, only a fool would say otherwise. He also suggested that it wasn't overturned by Kevin Friend (VAR) because it didn't reach the threshold for clear and obvious but Gallagher made it clear and obvious that it should have been.
And this why I don't understand why Kevin Friend even got involved... He would've supported Cootes either way.

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Re: VAR Penalty 2nd Half?

Post by Hibsclaret » Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:17 pm

Not to worry. The Barnes one will be on the list of mistakes to add to the 4 that they admitted to the other week.

Every month we should be getting an update of how many they have got wrong without including ones like the Harry Kane (most obvious penalty ever) that they didn’t even admit was wrong! This is turning into an absolute shambles and can start damaging the integrity of the game like MartinP has highlighted above.

As for having Coote and Friend in tandem and expecting Burnley to get an obvious game changing decision like a penalty is akin to expecting Santa Claus down the chimney on Christmas night.

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Re: VAR Penalty 2nd Half?

Post by Darnhill Claret » Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:28 pm

Well that’s the night he comes to ours.
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Re: VAR Penalty 2nd Half?

Post by Hibsclaret » Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:30 pm

Darnhill Claret wrote:Well that’s the night he comes to ours.
Really
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Re: VAR Penalty 2nd Half?

Post by aggi » Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:37 pm

Rileybobs wrote:I’ve heard that the technology available to the VAR official is more advanced than the primitive fat red line shown on TV. Even still, we can only work to the level of accuracy that the available technology gives - which is what’s being done. I don’t have a problem with it. There will also be a margin of error of a few millimetres
with goal line technology.
The issue is that the cameras just aren't fast enough to give an accurate picture. If cameras are recording at 50 frames per second and a player is flat out sprinting they're going to cover ~ 6 inches between frames. If you choose the wrong frame for when the ball is kicked (or if it's between frames) then you're still just taking a guess as to whether they're offside.

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Re: VAR Penalty 2nd Half?

Post by Darnhill Claret » Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:44 pm

But that is why it has to be black/white, right/wrong. No allowances could be made or you would just have to scrap it. At some point it has to be agreed. I would prefer the attacker’s foot or head to be offside and no other body parts considered.

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Re: VAR Penalty 2nd Half?

Post by Rileybobs » Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:03 pm

aggi wrote:The issue is that the cameras just aren't fast enough to give an accurate picture. If cameras are recording at 50 frames per second and a player is flat out sprinting they're going to cover ~ 6 inches between frames. If you choose the wrong frame for when the ball is kicked (or if it's between frames) then you're still just taking a guess as to whether they're offside.

Yes. The cameras can only give us a decision as accurate as the technology allows - but every offside decision is made using the same system. And the camera is more accurate than the assistant referee determining the decision with his naked eye in real time. Nobody is claiming that the decision is 100% correct, it’s just as correct as it can be with the technology available.

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Re: VAR Penalty 2nd Half?

Post by Stayingup » Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:38 pm

Dyche definitely thought it was a penalty as did MOD Tim Cahill. Can't really argue with that.

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Re: VAR Penalty 2nd Half?

Post by martin_p » Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:59 pm

Rileybobs wrote:Yes. The cameras can only give us a decision as accurate as the technology allows - but every offside decision is made using the same system. And the camera is more accurate than the assistant referee determining the decision with his naked eye in real time. Nobody is claiming that the decision is 100% correct, it’s just as correct as it can be with the technology available.
So if it’s not 100% correct why overrule the on field officials for close calls. As I’ve said before, in cricket they deal with the technology not being 100% accurate by not overruling close LBWs.
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Re: VAR Penalty 2nd Half?

Post by Kgun5 » Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:03 pm

Rileybobs wrote:Yes. The cameras can only give us a decision as accurate as the technology allows - but every offside decision is made using the same system. And the camera is more accurate than the assistant referee determining the decision with his naked eye in real time. Nobody is claiming that the decision is 100% correct, it’s just as correct as it can be with the technology available.
I would be fine with VAR if the only complaint was the marginal offside calls, because as you mention, it is consistent within the tech used.

However, the refusal to make an overturn when the VAR officials dont have two colored lines to point to makes it just a new way for everyone to gripe.

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Re: VAR Penalty 2nd Half?

Post by Stan Tastic » Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:27 pm

VAR was supposed to eliminate appalling penalty decisions like Leicester and Southampton at home last season.

It's actually worse when a referee won't give it from five yards away and another one won't when he's looking at a replay. Then we have Mike Riley admitting to four mistakes when there's that many every weekend.

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Re: VAR Penalty 2nd Half?

Post by spt_claret » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:58 pm

scouseclaret wrote:I can’t believe the ref didn’t give it - it happened right in front of him!

As regards VAR, I’m beginning to suspect that the Premier League, in the way they’ve chosen to apply it, is deliberately trying to discredit it so we’ll all agree to scrapping it. It’s no secret that the big clubs don’t want it.
I'm a big supporter of VAR but I've thought this since day one in the Premier League. It infuriates me when people complain about VAR as though it's the technology or concept itself and not the ref in the booth and how he uses it that's the problem. And if you're using unaccountable referees to solve a problem with unaccountable referees then you're not going to get far, especially if they use the technology in bad faith- whether to back the initial decision at all costs or something else.

And I think anyone who thinks something else is beyond the pale needs to consider a few things. Juventus had their scandal years ago, players cheat, heck managers like Bielsa cheat and spy, but the integrity of referees is sacrosanct? In a multi billion pound sport where the Premier League brand and its big club brands are so lucrative for the league and television executives, where the advertising and sponsorship rights are worth so much, they need their big recognisable brands highlighted to keep the money coming in. And if you follow the money things start to look odd, in my opinion. And I should state the below is my personal opinion, in no way a statement of fact.

The premier league select group are paid by Professional Game Match Officials Limited. A subsidiary/shell company controlled 1/3 by the Football League, 1/3 by the FA, and 1/3 by the Premier League. That sounds fine to begin with...until we consider that the Premier League has Chelsea Chairman Bruce Buck leading their Audit and Renumeration Committee - the people responsible for making sure where the money goes and that it's not being used wrongfully. The guy who pays the refs wages and monitors their payments is the chairman of a club affected by the referees decisions. Slight conflict of interest there I think. This is without even getting onto how former Man United chief executive David Gill was concurrently also involved in positions of power at the FA and Premier League and continued on for a time as a non executive director while in senior positions within FIFA and UEFA (things Rafa Venice rightly criticised at the time)
My day job involves aspects of audit, conflicts of interest, and company ownership checks. In my view it is odd that you'd get an auditor, even internal audit, who owns a key stake in a company whose finances and brand are hugely affected by the decisions of another company he's paying to oversee judgments about his company, and who then audits those finances. To be clear- I'm not accusing anybody of anything I'm just saying it's a potential conflict of interest with minimal transparency- it's hard to even find out who is on the audit committee. Oh and this is also the committee that chose to give Buck's close personal friend Richard Scudamore a golden handshake out of the rest of the Premier League's wallets. Scudamore also overseeing the creation of Professional Game Match Officials Limited. It's all a system that feels in dire need of overhaul and segregation of duties.

As we've all heard the big clubs don't want a proper VAR system. Reviews have shown before now that if they did the biggest clubs would lose out and the smaller clubs benefit. We never see this level of complaint and cross examination and scrutiny in other sports using technology, and we also never see other sports where the technology can show something that contradicts the original decision...but the decision stands. It's maddening, and it's providing a lot of talking heads coming out united against VAR, rather than the real culprits of the same flawed referees continuing to use their judgment with impunity behind the safety of VAR.
We talk of the pressure on referees from big clubs, and pressure and intimidation of officials is likely an issue, but in an industry already riddled with bribery and corruption we never consider even the possibility that conflicts of interest exist in regards to who pays whose salary, and who makes the most branding money for who, in turn fuelling the finances used for those salaries. Even independent of any specific cluvs' involvement in the running of the league's corporate structure, Premier League's brand rights are both invaluable and deeply tied up to the fortunes of the big brand clubs. Frankly, the Premier League and its big brands are worth so much that it's too much money to not make people consider the possibility, and a lot of people have a price. Again- I'm not claiming anything, I'm just saying when you follow the money and connect the dots that I would not be personally shocked if at some point a new scandal rocked football. And ultimately, if it is the case then VAR is probably going to continue to be mangled beyond sense, or repealed.
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Re: VAR Penalty 2nd Half?

Post by Hibsclaret » Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:07 pm

Spot on SPT.

When you consider what the likes of Blatter, Platini and his cronies got away with for years along with the various bung scandals etc it is hard not to believe that some refereeing decisions are reached with some form of inequality....
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