This Forum is the main messageboard to discuss all things Claret and Blue and beyond
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Right_winger
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by Right_winger » Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:07 pm
ClaretAndJew wrote:Then there must be lots of evidence that shows smacking improves children's behaviour.
Well what a leading question let’s see your evidence then since your just waiting to use it.
Evidence is life experience. I’ve seen children whose parents didn’t give a **** about them and never disciplined them they went on to be destructive adults.
And Iv seen kids who have had proper discipline and grown up to be respectful adults.
There’s also those kids who have been abused and beaten, but that’s nothing to do with using smacking as a deterrent it’s the shitty parent who has the problem. There’s a huge distinction between them and a good parent using smacking as a deterrent.
Unfortunately the more “modern” views can’t make that distinction.
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Right_winger
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by Right_winger » Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:09 pm
Lancasterclaret wrote:We just said "No" to our kids a lot.
My point exactly.
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ClaretAndJew
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by ClaretAndJew » Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:14 pm
Right_winger wrote:Well what a leading question let’s see your evidence then since your just waiting to use it.
Evidence is life experience. I’ve seen children whose parents didn’t give a **** about them and never disciplined them they went on to be destructive adults.
And Iv seen kids who have had proper discipline and grown up to be respectful adults.
There’s also those kids who have been abused and beaten, but that’s nothing to do with using smacking as a deterrent it’s the shitty parent who has the problem. There’s a huge distinction between them and a good parent using smacking as a deterrent.
Unfortunately the more “modern” views can’t make that distinction.
8000 adults in this piece of research
https://www.nhs.uk/news/pregnancy-and-c ... adulthood/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Spike
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by Spike » Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:16 pm
anyone want to come into business with me making Tartan naughty steps?
Hadrian built that wall for a reason!
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Right_winger
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by Right_winger » Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:20 pm
Here’s the conclusion.
This study found that smacking can be linked to mental health difficulties in adulthood, just as more recognised forms of physical or emotional child abuse can be.
But it's very difficult to prove a direct relationship and be able to say that smacking causes adverse health outcomes with this sort of study.
All seems a bit wishy washy to me.
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Bacchus
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by Bacchus » Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:23 pm
Right_winger wrote:Well what a leading question let’s see your evidence then since your just waiting to use it.
And Iv seen kids who have had proper discipline and grown up to be respectful adults.
Anyone who can't instill discipline in their kids without resorting to hitting them is a terrible parent.
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Lord Beamish
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by Lord Beamish » Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:29 pm
Lancasterclaret wrote:I think I speak for the board when I say
**** off Rowls
Rowls seems to think he’s an expert on everything. He ought to realise that he’s not.
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claptrappers_union
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by claptrappers_union » Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:35 pm
If its OK to smack children, it should be OK to smack adults.
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LoveCurryPies
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by LoveCurryPies » Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:43 pm
When your kids have left home, do you really want them to remember you as the person who resorted to smacking and hitting?
They might still love you but will never forget you used violence to try control them.
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CoolClaret
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by CoolClaret » Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:44 pm
With regards to the child running in the road argument...
If a child isn't old enough to have the mental capacity to critically think or reason, then how do you discipline them to know running in the road can have dire consequences?
Genuinely curious
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If it be your will
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by If it be your will » Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:49 pm
JarrowClaret wrote:Wow Rowls smacking dogs is commonly thought to cause aggressive behavior in them in later in life. Anyway not the point of this I have never smacked my kids I don’t see the benefit of hurting your child deliberately. Others do which is strange to me but hey everyone to there own.
Just to explore this further, have you ever resorted to any kind of force in any way? I'm thinking, say, holding your child's wrist tightly (to the point it hurts just a little bit) when
they just will not stop doing the dangerous/destructive thing they are doing? I'm trying to work out where the line is between 'acceptable' physical punishment and 'unacceptable' physical punishment.
(Of course, if you've never even needed to resort to this, then congratulations on raising remarkably angelic children!)
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Elbarad
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by Elbarad » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:41 pm
ClaretAndJew wrote:Does the death penalty deter murderers?
It certainly deters A murderer.
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dsr
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by dsr » Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:09 pm
Elbarad wrote:It certainly deters A murderer.
It also reduces the number of repeat offenders.
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dsr
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by dsr » Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:10 pm
Lancasterclaret wrote:Naughty steps
X-box bans
Grounding
What's the punishment for a child that won't stay on the naughty step?
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ClaretAndJew
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by ClaretAndJew » Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:11 pm
dsr wrote:What's the punishment for a child that won't stay on the naughty step?
What's the punishment for a child when smacking doesn't work?
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Inchy
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by Inchy » Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:14 pm
I don’t think smacking works so it seems pointless to me.
As I said earlier I’ve smacked my son once and I very much doubt he even remembers it, but I do.
It made me feel bloody dreadful and shameful of my actions. I don’t understand how someone can use smacking as a form of punishment and not feel awfully guilty to the point where they realise they shouldn’t be doing it.
I know people say it’s “a last resort” punishment but that’s all subjective. It all depends on how long your tether is.
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ŽižkovClaret
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by ŽižkovClaret » Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:16 pm
10/10 back smacking Gareth Southgate
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dsr
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by dsr » Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:19 pm
Inchy wrote:I don’t think smacking works so it seems pointless to me.
As I said earlier I’ve smacked my son once and I very much doubt he even remembers it, but I do.
It made me feel bloody dreadful and shameful of my actions. I don’t understand how someone can use smacking as a form of punishment and not feel awfully guilty to the point where they realise they shouldn’t be doing it.
I know people say it’s “a last resort” punishment but that’s all subjective. It all depends on how long your tether is.
Rather depends on the child too. My nephew was so sensitive to punishment that just saying "No" was enough to make him cry. Never any need to smack him. Other children need lessons reinforcing a little more.
The one benefit of smacking is that it doesn't hurt in more than the very short term, and that it is over with quickly. No sitting on a naughty step (or not sitting there) and brooding.
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JarrowClaret
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by JarrowClaret » Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:19 pm
I have grabbed my children as you suggest but not as a punishment as such but I guess that would be open to interpretation differences. I am personally not prepared to smack my children if you are that is fine as it isn’t illegal (yet) but I could never agree with it. I don’t think I criticised anyone for doing it by the way I just said I don’t agree with it.
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ClaretAndJew
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by ClaretAndJew » Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:21 pm
When I was around 8 years old I was swearing at an immediate family member who, after losing their temper, beat me and threw me against a wall. This did not teach me that swearing was not appropriate it just stopped me from doing it at the time.
When I was 11 years old I was tasked with picking up an immediate family members prescription from the pharmacy. When I got it home I noticed I must have accidentally either banged against a wall or handled the medicine roughly because the container was broken. When this was discovered I was punched/kicked in the head and torso and thrown out into the street with the door locked.
There are other examples which have only made me grow to resent this person. I used to fear them, an immediate family member, I was AFRAID of them, I never sought comfort from them and we are not really close now.
What could have been.
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dsr
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by dsr » Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:23 pm
ClaretAndJew wrote:When I was around 8 years old I was swearing at an immediate family member who, after losing their temper, beat me and threw me against a wall. This did not teach me that swearing was not appropriate it just stopped me from doing it at the time.
When I was 11 years old I was tasked with picking up an immediate family members prescription from the pharmacy. When I got it home I noticed I must have accidentally either banged against a wall or handled the medicine roughly because the container was broken. When this was discovered I was punched/kicked in the head and torso and thrown out into the street with the door locked.
There are other examples which have only made me grow to resent this person. I used to fear them, an immediate family member, I was AFRAID of them, I never sought comfort from them and we are not really close now.
What could have been.
No need to change the law to make that illegal. It already is.
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ClaretAndJew
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by ClaretAndJew » Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:24 pm
dsr wrote:No need to change the law to make that illegal. It already is.
But where is the line?
What is smacking and what is abuse?
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Lancasterclaret
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by Lancasterclaret » Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:25 pm
dsr wrote:What's the punishment for a child that won't stay on the naughty step?
You keep putting him back on there.
I'm assuming you lot are parents here right?
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FactualFrank
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by FactualFrank » Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:26 pm
I think it's obvious that we aren't talking about the parent putting on a pair of knuckle-dusters and punching their child straight between the eyes.
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dsr
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by dsr » Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:27 pm
ClaretAndJew wrote:But where is the line?
What is smacking and what is abuse?
That's a good question.
And it can be extended. It has been suggested that children should be made to stand on a naughty step as an alternative punishment. But if your abusive relative had forced you to stand on the step for 16 hours without food, water , or sitting down, that would equally have been abuse. Where do you draw the line?
There is a big gap between a smacked bottom and kicking a child in the head. The line is somewhere between there.
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dsr
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by dsr » Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:30 pm
Lancasterclaret wrote:You keep putting him back on there.
I'm assuming you lot are parents here right?
No, but I have been a child.
How long do you have to keep putting a child who won't stay on the naughty step, back on it? Because I know from experience that there are children who would treat it as a game, especially when they know there is no punishment they can be given for playing it. And if the child thinks it's a game, then it isn't punishment. It also goes back to my earlier point, that the punishment takes a long time, and it can appear during the process that the parent has withdrawn its love from the child. That IMO would be more devastating than a smack.
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NottsClaret
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by NottsClaret » Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:39 pm
Bit weird that the two fellas who aren’t parents here are most keen on folk being allowed to hit kids.
Or alternatively, perhaps that’s for the best.
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willsclarets
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by willsclarets » Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:50 pm
If you smack your child, somewhere along the line you've lost control. Even without abusive intention, it is a lack of effort, patience and ironically discipline. It's a quick fix in a tight spot when a parent is stressed and short tempered, where more compassion and committment in the medium or long term, wouldn't necessitate it.
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Dyched
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by Dyched » Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:04 pm
Take things of them. Simple. They want to act like little wankers. Take that several hundred pound tablet/console/phone off them. That’ll teach em.
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Inchy
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by Inchy » Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:17 pm
I was recently on a flight back from
Portugal. My son was very well behaved for most of the flight but by the last half hour he was bored and tired and started acting up. First he wanted to crawl under the seats, then he wanted to kick the chair in front. Then he wouldn’t let me put his seat belt on when we were descending to land.
I put his seat belt on and he took it off. I put it on again and he took it off. I put it on again and again and he took it off again and again.
Now I didn’t have a naughty step,I couldn’t take anything off him. There was no punishment or warning of punishment that would work. In the end when we were coming into a turbulent landing I had to put his seat belt on and hold his arms so he couldn’t undo it and hold his legs so he couldn’t kick out.
Now you could consider that as restraint which could be considered as abuse. Was it reasonable? Well that depends if you think it’s reasonable to let him not wear his seatbelt and to kick the chair in front.
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LordBob
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by LordBob » Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:38 pm
I could never condone smacking a child in fact I don't condone anybody smacking anyone else it achieves nothing of any good all it will do is breed hatred and resentment. My other half spent 15 years as a house manager looking after kids in care some of these young kids could be very violent on occasions and you got to know these occasions, birthdays, Christmas, Easter and any other occasions when the kids they knew that had loving parents were enjoying mum and dads affection, it's heartbreaking. All they had known from being in nappies was violence and when you read the background reports on these kids it leaves you in tears of anger. These children have never been tucked safely into bed at night and given a big hug and a kiss, it's all they crave and all they got was a thump and when you read the background on their mothers and fathers, I can't call them parents you discover they had a similar childhood it's a vicious circle. Well done Scotland someone making a start.
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Rileybobs
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by Rileybobs » Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:43 pm
Rowls wrote:Classic UTC - people imagining others are advocating child abuse.
Read this thread back and tell me that people haven’t advocated child abuse. Unless of course you think that hitting children isn’t child abuse.
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Elbarad
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by Elbarad » Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:00 pm
My own experience is this.
I have one daughter who is now 17. When she was a baby I considered how I would discipline her. When I was a child I was smacked on the behind with belts, brushes, wooden spoons, spatulas, rulers. I was an unruly child with a smart mouth, so I also go smacked across the mouth for backtalk. That might sound horrible, but I was never injured, nor do I think I was abused and I do not resent my parents in any way. But I do think that if someone saw my parents do this today, they'd get a visit from the authorities. I'm 52 for context.
However, when I was presented with my own child I made several rules for myself. 1. Only use an open hand and only on the behind over clothes. 2. I made her sit in her room for 15 minutes between the issue, and the spanking. This allowed me to cool off and her to suffer the waiting of the spanking. 3. She only could get as many smacks as her age. 4. Obviously never using 'full strength' I'm not trying to hurt her, just make it clear she's gone over the line.
Now that she's grown, I'm satisfied with my choice. I do not think it was abusive and I think it was effective. I can't think of having to spank her more then 5-6 times. Luckily for me, my parents frequent curse of 'I hope you have a child just as naughty as you' didn't come true and she's a fine young woman and was an easy child to raise.
There are certainly a lot of horror stories a person could raise in regards to physical punishment gone bad. A lot that I've read here today should and would have always been child abuse.
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Bfcboyo
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by Bfcboyo » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:04 pm
NottsClaret wrote:Pretty sure heroin use is banned in Scotland also.
I wonder if the smacking ban will be as successful as the heroin ban!
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cricketfieldclarets
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by cricketfieldclarets » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:13 pm
ClaretAndJew wrote:Tell someone you've hit your wife to discipline her and you'll get abused.
Tell someone you smack your kids to discipline them and people will applaud you.
Hitting kids is weird. An adult is massive compared to a child, why would you want to instil fear into something so small?
Wow. Brilliantly put.
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boatshed bill
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by boatshed bill » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:14 pm
I used to get punched in the ears regularly as a form of discipline. It did me no harm apart from partial deafness!
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cricketfieldclarets
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by cricketfieldclarets » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:16 pm
Right_winger wrote:And where do you go when NO, no longer or doesn’t work?
A smack on the legs or the arse cheeks doesn’t cause physical harm but it implants a mental image in the childs head that if they do that again they will get a smack. That’s the deterrent and a good way to enforce behaviour.
Not smacking a child when it’s clearly required could also be construed as abuse as you are then complicit in their destructive behaviour.
If you need to hit a child because they dont understand no, it says much more about you than them...
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GodIsADeeJay81
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by GodIsADeeJay81 » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:34 pm
Light tap on the wrist/top of the hand is as far as it's gone for me and my kids.
I've never felt the need to take it any further and I honestly don't think I could do anymore than that either.
Having kids on the spectrum, I've had to learn varying ways to discipline them and/or to explain why they shouldn't do certain things, but I'm pretty sure that anything worse than a tap on the wrist wouldn't work with them.
I was very fortunate in that my legal guardian didn't feel the need to beat me, I just had that same tap on the wrist when I was very young.
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Right_winger
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by Right_winger » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:39 pm
cricketfieldclarets wrote:If you need to hit a child because they dont understand no, it says much more about you than them...
Your entitled to your opinion but that’s ********.
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spadesclaret
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by spadesclaret » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:42 pm
cricketfieldclarets wrote:If you need to hit a child because they dont understand no, it says much more about you than them...
That is not what it says. "And where do you go when NO, no longer or doesn’t work?" is what it says.
There is a huge difference between a child not understanding "No" and the same child ignoring "No".
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kentonclaret
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by kentonclaret » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:46 pm
There used to be naughty steps for very bad adults.
They climbed them and a rope was put around their necks.
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fatboy47
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by fatboy47 » Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:28 pm
I sit on the Local children's safeguarding board.
That the likes of Rowls may slip through our vetting procedures and actually get an interview for a job involving kids is a scary prospect.
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Rileybobs
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by Rileybobs » Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:35 pm
Elbarad wrote:My own experience is this.
I have one daughter who is now 17. When she was a baby I considered how I would discipline her. When I was a child I was smacked on the behind with belts, brushes, wooden spoons, spatulas, rulers. I was an unruly child with a smart mouth, so I also go smacked across the mouth for backtalk. That might sound horrible, but I was never injured, nor do I think I was abused and I do not resent my parents in any way. But I do think that if someone saw my parents do this today, they'd get a visit from the authorities. I'm 52 for context.
However, when I was presented with my own child I made several rules for myself. 1. Only use an open hand and only on the behind over clothes. 2. I made her sit in her room for 15 minutes between the issue, and the spanking. This allowed me to cool off and her to suffer the waiting of the spanking. 3. She only could get as many smacks as her age. 4. Obviously never using 'full strength' I'm not trying to hurt her, just make it clear she's gone over the line.
Now that she's grown, I'm satisfied with my choice. I do not think it was abusive and I think it was effective. I can't think of having to spank her more then 5-6 times. Luckily for me, my parents frequent curse of 'I hope you have a child just as naughty as you' didn't come true and she's a fine young woman and was an easy child to raise.
There are certainly a lot of horror stories a person could raise in regards to physical punishment gone bad. A lot that I've read here today should and would have always been child abuse.
A few posters who advocate smacking children have said that they didn’t do it to hurt the child, just to deter bad behaviour. But if the smacking didn’t hurt the child how did it deter the bad behaviour?
Rowls mentions the threat of physical punishment being a deterrent. Again, how will the child know that physical punishment hurts unless it’s been used before.
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Burnleyareback2
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by Burnleyareback2 » Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:39 pm
claretonthecoast1882 wrote:There's probably a few adults who may benefit from a smack rather than children
*See post from Rowls
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mkmel
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by mkmel » Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:53 pm
No I haven't got a Halo over my head but I never ever smacked or hit my kids....not even once
Yes they got sent to their room or not allowed out if misbehaving
And also believed in rewarding them when they behaved well or did good things
When they were young and they did good things used to give them gold stars to put on the fridge and they then got a reward when they got so many
And how can you say to your kids that it is wrong for them to hit someone if that person does something wrong and yet you as a parent smacks or hits their kids when they do wrong
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If it be your will
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by If it be your will » Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:59 pm
Inchy wrote:I don’t think smacking works so it seems pointless to me.
As I said earlier I’ve smacked my son once and I very much doubt he even remembers it, but I do.
It made me feel bloody dreadful and shameful of my actions. I don’t understand how someone can use smacking as a form of punishment and not feel awfully guilty to the point where they realise they shouldn’t be doing it.
I know people say it’s “a last resort” punishment but that’s all subjective. It all depends on how long your tether is.
I've made a reasonable estimate that you probably have about 1.5 billion seconds left to live on this earth. Having read this, and your previous post, I'm urging - begging even - not to waste a single one of those beating yourself up over this! I think God will let you off this one.
(And any change in the law won't be applied retrospectively anyway...)
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Rileybobs
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by Rileybobs » Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:00 pm
mkmel wrote:No I haven't got a Halo over my head but I never ever smacked or hit my kids....not even once
Yes they got sent to their room or not allowed out if misbehaving
And also believed in rewarding them when they behaved well or did good things
When they were young and they did good things used to give them gold stars to put on the fridge and they then got a reward when they got so many
And how can you say to your kids that it is wrong for them to hit someone if that person does something wrong and yet you as a parent smacks or hits their kids when they do wrong
When my child does something good I reward him by allowing him to hit me. But only with an open hand, and only on my naked backside.
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tim_noone
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by tim_noone » Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:01 pm
fatboy47 wrote:I sit on the Local children's safeguarding board.
That the likes of Rowls may slip through our vetting procedures and actually get an interview for a job involving kids is a scary prospect.
No more scary than you interviewing Buxom Ladies with the pretence of a live in housekeepers job.
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tim_noone
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by tim_noone » Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:02 pm
Rileybobs wrote:When my child does something good I reward him by allowing him to hit me. But only with an open hand, and only on my naked backside.
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Bin Ont Turf
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by Bin Ont Turf » Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:10 pm
A ban on smacking will just produce more clever dicks on internet football forums in the future.