Laws of game question

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Tricky Trevor
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Laws of game question

Post by Tricky Trevor » Sun Oct 06, 2019 12:57 pm

Did Dwight come off to the touchline after the red card?
It looked like he did on the highlights package but I thought you could stay on following any card.

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Re: Laws of game question

Post by Bosscat » Sun Oct 06, 2019 1:12 pm

Yes Dwight left the pitch following treatment...
I thought a player had to leave the field of play (regardless of a red card given to the offending player or not) following treatment by a physio, and is only allowed to return after play restarts.

But what do I know :D

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Re: Laws of game question

Post by ClaretTony » Sun Oct 06, 2019 1:15 pm

I’m not sure what the rules are but the card was yellow for the offence

Tall Paul
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Re: Laws of game question

Post by Tall Paul » Sun Oct 06, 2019 1:16 pm

They don't seem to be taking any notice of the new rule that substituted players are supposed to leave the pitch at the nearest point of the touchline either.
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Re: Laws of game question

Post by Tricky Trevor » Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:26 pm

Found it.
https://www.readingrefs.org.uk/injured- ... leave-fop/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Last paragraph before the comments. He could/should have stayed on. The rider at the end over length of treatment might have come into play.

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Re: Laws of game question

Post by beddie » Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:06 pm

I find it a strange rule, yesterday Tark went down injured after an Everton corner that resulted in a goal kick for us, he gets treatment but then has to walk off to the half way line, we take the goal kick and he's the allowed back on. Why does he have to go off, especially as play wasn't stopped.

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Re: Laws of game question

Post by dpinsussex » Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:30 pm

A player receiving treatment does NOT need to leave the field of play if the offender is cautioned/ sent off and the treatment is completed within the caution or send off procedure.

Hope that explains the law. Not seen the incident yet.
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aggi
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Re: Laws of game question

Post by aggi » Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:05 pm

It happened twice that a player had to go off the pitch after treatment when the offender was cautioned. It happened with Pieters and Coleman as well. I said at the time it looked like the ref didn't know the rules.

EDIT: Seems there's an extra, somewhat pointless nuance to this.
Last edited by aggi on Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Claret
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Re: Laws of game question

Post by Claret » Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:27 pm

I think the overriding rule is that players should always LEAVE the playing area for treatment, whether minor or not. This just doesn't seem to happen and in reality the player always seems to be treated on the pitch and, once recovered, asked to leave, which in my mind is absolutely ridiculous. Refs need to enforce this rule of getting injured players off the pitch as soon as possible. Any player who is injured near the touchline should be booked if he fails to get off or if he sneaks back on before treatment in order to try and stop the game.
Some serious injuries can obviously be dealt with on the pitch until it's safe to move the injured player.
Also, play should never be stopped for an injury unless it's serious, requiring urgent attention, or a head injury. I'm sick and tired of players dropping to the floor and expecting the game to come to a halt.

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Re: Laws of game question

Post by dsr » Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:27 pm

The "caution procedure" takes about a second with some refs, 5 seconds with others, depending what he writes down. So it won't be often that the trainer is on and off again before the caution is completed. Sendings off take a bit longer because the player has to walk off.

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Re: Laws of game question

Post by ClaretTony » Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:51 pm

dpinsussex wrote:A player receiving treatment does NOT need to leave the field of play if the offender is cautioned/ sent off and the treatment is completed within the caution or send off procedure.

Hope that explains the law. Not seen the incident yet.
So it all depends how long the physio takes. What a nonsense.

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Re: Laws of game question

Post by ClaretTony » Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:52 pm

Tall Paul wrote:They don't seem to be taking any notice of the new rule that substituted players are supposed to leave the pitch at the nearest point of the touchline either.
Was it the last home game when we made a double substitution and the ref allowed one player to walk right across the pitch but told Barnes to go off on the other side after the opposition players had pointed it out?

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Re: Laws of game question

Post by duncandisorderly » Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:25 pm

Tall Paul wrote:They don't seem to be taking any notice of the new rule that substituted players are supposed to leave the pitch at the nearest point of the touchline either.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/49960000" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Laws of game question

Post by Tall Paul » Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:41 pm

Good job referee! Presumably in a case like that the substitute isn't allowed to come on?

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Re: Laws of game question

Post by dpinsussex » Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:03 pm

Tall Paul wrote:Good job referee! Presumably in a case like that the substitute isn't allowed to come on?
He was sent off before the substitution was completed so correct.
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Re: Laws of game question

Post by dpinsussex » Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:06 pm

ClaretTony wrote:So it all depends how long the physio takes. What a nonsense.
Not true. It is a considered of what is reasonable. It is easy for a referee to slow the process down. The biggest problem is that premier league referees do NOT caution / send off as per law. They flash cards.
We are meant to isolate the player, explain the offence and advise they are being cautioned. Then take the name and finally show the card whilst the player is facing you.

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Re: Laws of game question

Post by dpinsussex » Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:17 pm

Claret wrote:I think the overriding rule is that players should always LEAVE the playing area for treatment, whether minor or not. This just doesn't seem to happen and in reality the player always seems to be treated on the pitch and, once recovered, asked to leave, which in my mind is absolutely ridiculous. Refs need to enforce this rule of getting injured players off the pitch as soon as possible. Any player who is injured near the touchline should be booked if he fails to get off or if he sneaks back on before treatment in order to try and stop the game.
Some serious injuries can obviously be dealt with on the pitch until it's safe to move the injured player.
Also, play should never be stopped for an injury unless it's serious, requiring urgent attention, or a head injury. I'm sick and tired of players dropping to the floor and expecting the game to come to a halt.
I hear what you are saying. However the referee is not medically qualified to assess whether a player can be moved. That is the physio and club doctors responsibility.
If the referee demands that a player leaves the FOP and something happens because of that demand he opens himself up to being sued.
The second point re stopping play is absolutely correct, however players will and do play act to get the game stopped especially if their team is under pressure. As a referee we try and make a judgement from what we see. Sometimes the players do con us. Nothing we can do about that. You need to remember that the referees primary responsibility is player safety and if we are concerned that a player is hurt we must stop play.
Players stop cheating the referees job in this respect becomes much easier
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Claret
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Re: Laws of game question

Post by Claret » Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:28 pm

dpinsussex wrote:I hear what you are saying. However the referee is not medically qualified to assess whether a player can be moved. That is the physio and club doctors responsibility.
If the referee demands that a player leaves the FOP and something happens because of that demand he opens himself up to being sued.
The second point re stopping play is absolutely correct, however players will and do play act to get the game stopped especially if their team is under pressure. As a referee we try and make a judgement from what we see. Sometimes the players do con us. Nothing we can do about that. You need to remember that the referees primary responsibility is player safety and if we are concerned that a player is hurt we must stop play.
Players stop cheating the referees job in this respect becomes much easier
You’re probably right.
However...
If a player miraculously recovers I think the referee should be allowed to take the player to the touch line and provide him with the actual injury (under medical supervision, of course).
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dpinsussex
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Re: Laws of game question

Post by dpinsussex » Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:09 pm

Claret wrote:You’re probably right.
However...
If a player miraculously recovers I think the referee should be allowed to take the player to the touch line and provide him with the actual injury (under medical supervision, of course).
Or caution him for unsporting behaviour.
2nd yellow tho difficult to sell the decision.

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Re: Laws of game question

Post by CharlieinNewMexico » Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:52 am

dpinsussex wrote:Or caution him for unsporting behaviour.
2nd yellow tho difficult to sell the decision.
I like Claret's idea better!

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Re: Laws of game question

Post by ClaretTony » Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:15 am

Tall Paul wrote:They don't seem to be taking any notice of the new rule that substituted players are supposed to leave the pitch at the nearest point of the touchline either.
And now, our referees have been told not to order substituted players to leave by the nearest touchline if they are any concerns that it could lead to potential clashes with opposition fans. They've also been made aware of the problems should that player then walk round the pitch in kit, thus making it more difficult for the assistant on the opposite side with potential offside decisions.

In other words, for simplicity, we've probably scrapped the idea.

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Re: Laws of game question

Post by dpinsussex » Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:28 am

CharlieinNewMexico wrote:I like Claret's idea better!
So do I :)

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Re: Laws of game question

Post by Andreshotboots » Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:27 pm

Why don’t they just bring in a law where the ref just stops his watch when a substitution is being made. That way they can time-waste and play act all they want as it won’t make the slightest difference..

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Re: Laws of game question

Post by dsr » Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:54 pm

Or make the rule that once the subs board goes up, te player has 15 seconds to leave the pitch in any direction he chooses. They could even put a little clock on the board starting automatically so the fourth official can see when the time's up.

If the player doesn't get off in time, then he still has to go off but the sub can't come on until the next break in play.

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Re: Laws of game question

Post by Tricky Trevor » Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:27 pm

The sooner they bring in an independent stop clock, under the direction of the ref, the better. As in Rugby.
Why are both codes of rugby so far ahead of football in this regard?

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Re: Laws of game question

Post by dpinsussex » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:52 pm

Tricky Trevor wrote:The sooner they bring in an independent stop clock, under the direction of the ref, the better. As in Rugby.
Why are both codes of rugby so far ahead of football in this regard?
I understand what you mean however couple things cause problems with idea.

1 - laws of game state referee is sole time keeper - ok possible to change
2 - laws apply to all levels of football from the premier league down to the dog and duck Sunday league. These park games you are lucky to have a referee, if there is a clock stopper, who does it? What is to stop a team cheating by not restarting it because they are losing.
Sadly the only way I see is referees be proactive and give the player the kick up the back side to get off and allow at least 30 sec for each substitution.
We then get moaned at for giving 7 plus minutes of stoppage time.
Cant win sadly

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Re: Laws of game question

Post by Tricky Trevor » Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:00 pm

dpinsussex wrote:I understand what you mean however couple things cause problems with idea.

1 - laws of game state referee is sole time keeper - ok possible to change
2 - laws apply to all levels of football from the premier league down to the dog and duck Sunday league. These park games you are lucky to have a referee, if there is a clock stopper, who does it? What is to stop a team cheating by not restarting it because they are losing.
Sadly the only way I see is referees be proactive and give the player the kick up the back side to get off and allow at least 30 sec for each substitution.
We then get moaned at for giving 7 plus minutes of stoppage time.
Cant win sadly
Get your point about lower league but I was implying the professional game.
Re:your point 1. I did say under the direction of the referee. When he has so much to do it is easier to say stop/start clock to a fourth official than be looking at his watch. It also gives the 4th the opportunity to ask “should I stop the clock” if he has forgotten. I do appreciate what a ton they have on their plate.

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Re: Laws of game question

Post by dpinsussex » Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:52 pm

Tricky Trevor wrote:Get your point about lower league but I was implying the professional game.
Re:your point 1. I did say under the direction of the referee. When he has so much to do it is easier to say stop/start clock to a fourth official than be looking at his watch. It also gives the 4th the opportunity to ask “should I stop the clock” if he has forgotten. I do appreciate what a ton they have on their plate.
Can not apply different laws to different levels of the game. How they are interpreted though are often very different.

Yes referees have a ton on their plate and that doesnt even register on a lot of spectators minds.
Easier for referee to stop the clock themselves rather than shouting across the pitch stop and start lol

4th official basically has a job of the fall guy to take the wrath and the abuse of the management teams because they dont agree with a small decision that went against them. Completely unacceptable what they have to put up with. They are also the extra pair of eyes to help the ref and the subs to do. :)

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Re: Laws of game question

Post by Tricky Trevor » Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:23 pm

dpinsussex wrote:Can not apply different laws to different levels of the game. How they are interpreted though are often very different.

Yes referees have a ton on their plate and that doesnt even register on a lot of spectators minds.
Easier for referee to stop the clock themselves rather than shouting across the pitch stop and start lol

4th official basically has a job of the fall guy to take the wrath and the abuse of the management teams because they dont agree with a small decision that went against them. Completely unacceptable what they have to put up with. They are also the extra pair of eyes to help the ref and the subs to do. :)
“Can not apply different laws to different levels of the game. How they are interpreted though are often very different.”
What about VAR in PL or even goalline techno?

“Easier for referee to stop the clock themselves rather than shouting across the pitch stop and start lol”
As I was implying Pro level I thought they could use their mikes for communication.

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Re: Laws of game question

Post by dpinsussex » Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:18 pm

Tricky Trevor wrote:“Can not apply different laws to different levels of the game. How they are interpreted though are often very different.”
What about VAR in PL or even goalline techno?

“Easier for referee to stop the clock themselves rather than shouting across the pitch stop and start lol”
As I was implying Pro level I thought they could use their mikes for communication.
Var is permitted at all levels of football I believe.
However:
The use of video assistant referees (VARs) is only permitted where the match/competition organiser has fulfilled all the VAR protocol and implementation requirements (as set out in the VAR Handbook) and has received written permission from The IFAB and FIFA.
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