The fall of Stoke City and Vokes / Ward

UpTheClaretsFCBK · Post by **UpTheClaretsFCBK** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:20 pm

Can anyone shed any light into the situation at Stoke City?

Looking over the match reports of recent games, it seems that Sam (Still only 29) is being kept out of the team by Lee Gregory, who 2 years his senior, has only managed 1 goal in 11 games and is a cast off from a Championship / League One yo-yo Millwall side, Tyrese Campbell who is 19 and hasn't scored a senior goal in his 16 league games, Scott Hogan who has managed 3 in 7, which isn't too bad to be fair and they signed Benik Afobe and then ended up loaning him out to Bristol City.

Here's what their manager, Nathan Jones, said when they signed Vokes:

“Sam is a player of real pedigree, he has been promoted from this level and he’s an experienced international and Premier League player. To get it done is something totally different to anything we have and we think he’s a marquee player for this level. We know he’s a good character so he’ll add something to our dressing room and we’re bringing him in because of his goal-scoring pedigree and what he does.”

As for Stephen Ward, he's played two league games, and Jone's seems to prefer to play James McLean out of position instead.

Vokes, Ward and most of the Stoke support must be tearing their hair out.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:23 pm

Sam simply doesn’t fit into the way he plays which begs the question as to why they signed him

claretblue · Post by **claretblue** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:35 pm

I'll bet there were many other more suitable Championship clubs they could have signed for - and had a better chance of promotion with!

They were great for us - wish them both well for their futures and hopefully some playing time!

...that McIlroy lad shouldn't have gone to Stoke either!

Tricky Trevor · Post by **Tricky Trevor** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:36 pm

Sam laid on their winner at Swansea.
How is Stephen Ward coping with his injuries? Or have we finally got one over on them.

TheFamilyCat · Post by **TheFamilyCat** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:37 pm

Happen their manager is ****.

Suratclaret · Post by **Suratclaret** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:28 pm

"we’re bringing him in because of his goal-scoring pedigree and what he does.”
...so I won't play him!
Very odd.

moaninclaret · Post by **moaninclaret** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:00 pm

These 2 ex clarets are tailor made for the championship, and both were brilliant players for us, i cant understand why they are not in the line up every week for a Stoke City side that looks nailed on for relegation, it really is a shame for 2 lads who have tasted so much success when they at Burnley to be left on the bench week in week out, they deserve much better, no wonder Stoke are struggling, leaving so much talent out of their team is a huge mistake, i hope they both shove in transfer requests and get to play for teams with at least a bit of ambition, good luck Sam and Wardy.

jrgbfc · Post by **jrgbfc** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:02 pm

Tbf the last few times I watched Ward it looked like his legs had gone. Not quite sure what Stoke were thinking essentially swapping him for Pieters.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:03 pm

jrgbfc wrote:Tbf the last few times I watched Ward it looked like his legs had gone. Not quite sure what Stoke were thinking essentially swapping him for Pieters.

To be fair the last time you saw Wardy he was in need of knee surgery.

moaninclaret · Post by **moaninclaret** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:09 pm

Wardy is still a very good player when fit but he doesn't look it at present, still good enough to play for the likes of Stoke though.

UpTheClaretsFCBK · Post by **UpTheClaretsFCBK** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:34 pm

ClaretTony wrote:Sam simply doesn’t fit into the way he plays which begs the question as to why they signed him

In what sense? Gregory is 2cm taller than Sam, similar target man traits, with a far poorer scoring record, in poorer leagues.

What does he bring that Sam doesn't?

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:41 pm

UpTheClaretsFCBK wrote:In what sense? Gregory is 2cm taller than Sam, similar target man traits, with a far poorer scoring record, in poorer leagues.

What does he bring that Sam doesn't?

Nothing I wouldn't have thought, but the fact is a big striker who can head a ball, as Sam does, doesn't really fit into the way he plays. I know a couple of Stoke fans well, both think he's absolutely clueless (Jones that is, not Vokes, who they don't like by the way).

Dark Cloud · Post by **Dark Cloud** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:45 pm

Sam had an unfortunate start as he missed a penalty (unheard of at Burnley!) in his first match, he scored early in either his second or third, but was then stretchered off and was injured for a spell. When he returned he missed another penalty and wasn't immediately first choice. Thus a big part of the problem is (I BELIEVE) that far from tearing their hair out as mentioned above, Stoke fans soon took against him and he's regarded as a poor signing and the consensus is that Burnley "had their trousers down", when tbh it SHOULD have been a good move for all parties on paper. Wardy I really don't know about, but assume he's less than fit and maybe struggling against his age AND his dodgy knees.

Foulthrow · Post by **Foulthrow** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:18 pm

ClaretTony wrote:Sam simply doesn’t fit into the way he plays which begs the question as to why they signed him

Is that because Sam's style is promotion whereas Jones wants relegation?

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:43 pm

I believe they played Sam not fully fit and the crowd started turning on him... according to a mate who supports Stoke, and a bit of an anorak about the potters.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:44 pm

I'd say the manager is the problem, he can't find a style of play that suits the players he's got.

Sam's proven he can score in the right system, both in the championship and the PL, if the manager can't work something out he needs replacing.

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:44 pm

elwaclaret wrote:I believe they played Sam not fully fit and the crowd started turning on him... according to a mate who supports Stoke, and a bit of an anorak about the potters.

By all accounts not a million miles off how Burnley fans reacted when we first got him from Wolves.

Quicknick · Post by **Quicknick** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:48 pm

I hope Sam's career doesn't tail off. At 29, he still has a lot to give someone. I would have thought Leeds might have been interested. Much as I hate them, they would have been a better move.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:11 pm

Strange one all round. Id still have vokes here to be honest so god knows whats happened there.

Ward is easily the best left back i have seen for us. But definitely looked past it at the start of last season / end of the one prior. Before that i dont think he was ever less than 7 out of 10. Unfortunately age and injury has caught up with him.

turfytopper · Post by **turfytopper** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:11 pm

The other week I was at the EFL 3rd round cup game Crawley v Stoke.
It was a rare start for both Sam Vokes and Stephen Ward which pleased me that I'd see them both.
I was also able to have a quick word with Sam before KO.

Sam did score the opener but both players disappointingly, didn't look the same players that I am so familiar with.

Vokes went on to miss the opening Stoke pen in the shoot out. This ultimately sealed their defeat to league 2 opposition.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:04 pm

Foulthrow wrote:Is that because Sam's style is promotion whereas Jones wants relegation?

Sounds about right to me

jrgbfc · Post by **jrgbfc** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:17 pm

Or with Vokes is it the case of an average player looking better playing for us due to Dyche making us greater than the sum of our parts, like Boyd and David Jones? He didn't pull up any trees at any club before signing for us either.

tim_noone · Post by **tim_noone** » Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:19 am

Suratclaret wrote:"we’re bringing him in because of his goal-scoring pedigree and what he does.”
...so I won't play him!
Very odd.

Dyche on Derbys 22goalscoring golden Boot championship player of the year signing Vydra.... He will bring a different dimension to The Burnley Team...a Different positional sense and strength of Character. ....so I won't play him! Equally very Odd.

fidelcastro · Post by **fidelcastro** » Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:37 am

tim_noone wrote:Dyche on Derbys 22goalscoring golden Boot championship player of the year signing Vydra.... He will bring a different dimension to The Burnley Team...a Different positional sense and strength of Character. ....so I won't play him! Equally very Odd.

Aye, what with us doing so badly without Vydra too!

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:42 am

One of those managers with a thought in his head, who will not compromise/adapt and will either be successful, by luck or sacked prior to the relegation this approach usually achieves.

fidelcastro · Post by **fidelcastro** » Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:49 am

Successful by luck?

Hmmm... righto.

UpTheClaretsFCBK · Post by **UpTheClaretsFCBK** » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:40 am

tim_noone wrote:Dyche on Derbys 22goalscoring golden Boot championship player of the year signing Vydra.... He will bring a different dimension to The Burnley Team...a Different positional sense and strength of Character. ....so I won't play him! Equally very Odd.

I think this argument would hold some weight if we were bottom of the league.

Vydra did start games last season during our rocky start. He just never nailed down a place.

UpTheClaretsFCBK · Post by **UpTheClaretsFCBK** » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:42 am

ClaretTony wrote:Nothing I wouldn't have thought, but the fact is a big striker who can head a ball, as Sam does, doesn't really fit into the way he plays. I know a couple of Stoke fans well, both think he's absolutely clueless (Jones that is, not Vokes, who they don't like by the way).

Yeah, what I was implying is that Lee Gregory is a big striker (bigger than Vokes, in fact), who can head the ball, he’s played 11 times this season, scoring only 1 goal.

RVclaret · Post by **RVclaret** » Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:23 am

Jones has been trying to implement his 4-1-2-1-2 diamond formation that was successful at Luton and it just doesn't seem to have worked.

My mate who is a huge Stoke fan says there is a bigger problem from above at their club, though. They think a few things are rotten and he still has faith in Jones.

Interestingly, they went 4-4-2 at the weekend and won 2-1 away to the top of the league for their first league win - Vokes essentially with the assist as his header was saved by their keeper with Hogan following up into an empty net.

CharlieinNewMexico · Post by **CharlieinNewMexico** » Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:27 am

Stephen Ward. The highlight of a career, away at Chelsea. What a performance.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:32 am

I think it will be the case when a lot of players leave Burnley they might struggle to play as well as they did under SD.
If you look at Sam Vokes in particular he had many loan spells at different clubs before he came to Burnley and it’s only really SD who turned him into the excellent player he became.
I know some people like to take the mickey out of Dyche for using words like “framework” a lot but it’s obviously a massive thing at our club - he gets the best out of players and he knows which players best fit into his framework.

Nathan Jones has already admitted that whilst at Stoke he has made mistakes by trying new things and moving away from the style of management that brought him success (whatever that is) and he is now going back to “being me”. It might explain why they have done so poorly with a team that should be top 6....that team would not be where they are under SD

Blackrod · Post by **Blackrod** » Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:40 am

I think we are very good as a club generally at timing when to sell players ( when we haven’t been forced financially).

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:21 am

fidelcastro wrote:Successful by luck?

Hmmm... righto.

In as much as that approach needs a squad of players, willing and able to comply, which is not usual. Rebuild over time yes but not with an inherited squad.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:22 am

To be fair to Jones, he's not been helped by some catastrophic goalkeeping mistakes from Butland earlier in the season.

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:29 am

Players don't play at their best for 10 years or at least it's very rare.
You just have to hope you get the players on their upward curve.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:39 am

Things could be about to change - strong rumour that Nathan Jones will be sacked today although a Friday, the day before a game, seems a strange time to do it.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:42 am

Forget the day before a game suggestion in post above, Stoke don't play until Monday.

beddie · Post by **beddie** » Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:03 am

I always feel sorry for the majority of Managers that get sacked, (if this guy does of course). I don't know about Stoke but often you hear about player power being the cause. Sometimes of course the Managers system and ideas just doesn't work out.

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:07 am

jrgbfc wrote:Tbf the last few times I watched Ward it looked like his legs had gone. Not quite sure what Stoke were thinking essentially swapping him for Pieters.

Many Stoke fans said exactly the same at the time I recall.

colner · Post by **colner** » Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:11 pm

Jones officially gone at Stoke now

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:35 pm

colner wrote:Jones officially gone at Stoke now

Saw it from John Percy had tweeted it so it was clearly going to happen. Amazed he’s lasted so long.

Blackrod · Post by **Blackrod** » Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:39 pm

I’m amazed he lasted so long too. I heard an interview with him which was not just about football and he sounded an impressive guy. I’d certainly be motivated by
him.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:19 pm

Pulis installed as favourite

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:27 pm

When nothing was remotely looking to be improving, either the manager or the team has to change.

For Stoke, that time was a while back.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:50 pm

jrgbfc wrote:Tbf the last few times I watched Ward it looked like his legs had gone. Not quite sure what Stoke were thinking essentially swapping him for Pieters.

I'm not sure what happened but there was some falling out between Pieters and Stoke. He was out on loan somewhere at the tail-end of last season.

beddie · Post by **beddie** » Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:06 pm

Couldn't find the original thread but just spotted he's been potted.

Alanstevensonsgloves · Post by **Alanstevensonsgloves** » Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:08 pm

Nathan Jones, he stayed on too long

ŽižkovClaret · Post by **ŽižkovClaret** » Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:09 pm

ClaretTony wrote:Pulis installed as favourite

Would make a lot of sense tbf

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:14 pm

aggi wrote:I'm not sure what happened but there was some falling out between Pieters and Stoke. He was out on loan somewhere at the tail-end of last season.

No falling out, just Jones said he wasn't the kind of full back he wanted for the way he wanted to play.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:17 pm

ClaretTony wrote:Pulis installed as favourite

And now Preston's Alex Neil has gone odds on.

Neil looked a certainty to go to West Brom in the summer, was apparently there for talks, returned to Preston and signed a new long term deal. Doing a good job at Preston - can't imagine why he would want to leave a team at the top of the division for one at the bottom.