Southgate's stock is rising !

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Woodleyclaret
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Southgate's stock is rising !

Post by Woodleyclaret » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:30 am

Fake news or what
A team of incompetents over hyped by Gareth and his media chums
Only Raheem Sterling looked interested
Apparently,Gareth can have his pick of top jobs according to the sycophantic commentator.
Bombed at Boro .I dont see him moving from his very well paid England job anytime soon

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Re: Southgate's stock is rising !

Post by evensteadiereddie » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:58 am

Unless he uses Dyche's experience as a part-time defence coach, England have had it.

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Re: Southgate's stock is rising !

Post by Granny WeatherWax » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:05 am

Absolute fraud. Stealing a living.
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Re: Southgate's stock is rising !

Post by NottsClaret » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:07 am

Southgate’s 2018 World Cup is like Coyle’s 08/09 season. Definitely the exception, when everything falls into place, compared to long stretches of either failure or mediocrity.

Happens quite a bit, even Solskjaer for a while last season. Everyone knows it, but the memory of that run to the semis in Russia and the adulation for a rare ‘nice guy’ is too fresh for anyone at FA headquarters to face up to reality just yet.

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Re: Southgate's stock is rising !

Post by Stayingup » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:08 am

Are Ben Mee and Tarks International standard? Some would say not, whatever international standard is. However from where I sit they are certainly the equals of Keane and Maguire. Then again a good defence does not just happen because certain hyped up expensive players are selected. It has to be worked at and strategised. Dyche is a master. Southgate not.

The media really hypes up players, usually from city teams and then automatically it seems, they are in the England team. Well the manager should cast his eye beyond this media hype and look further afield as the current status quo is not working.
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Re: Southgate's stock is rising !

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:15 am

If Southgate set England up to primarily defend, keep it tight and hope to nick a goal then Im pretty sure apart from playing the best in the world at tournaments we wouldnt concede at all and the defence would look faultless.

Trouble is as England manager averaging 1 point per game is complete failure and wouldnt get us anywhere so we have to push forward, attack and leave ourselves open at times.

He's been a breath of fresh air (SO FAR) as England manager and the main negativity about him on here is because he doesn't think the Burnley players are quite as amazing as what Burnley fans (unsurprisingly ) do

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Re: Southgate's stock is rising !

Post by Rileybobs » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:16 am

NottsClaret wrote:Southgate’s 2018 World Cup is like Coyle’s 08/09 season. Definitely the exception, when everything falls into place, compared to long stretches of either failure or mediocrity.

Happens quite a bit, even Solskjaer for a while last season. Everyone knows it, but the memory of that run to the semis in Russia and the adulation for a rare ‘nice guy’ is too fresh for anyone at FA headquarters to face up to reality just yet.
A little unfair methinks. Southgate isn’t blessed with an incredible pool of talent. We’ve got world class players in Kane and Sterling and some exciting young players coming through but he doesn’t have an experienced and dependable goalkeeper, centre back or central midfielder to choose from.

Maybe the run to the WC semi final was a one-off, time will tell. But Southgate has got the public and the media behind a team that two years previous were absolutely vilified. He’s given a hell of a lot of chances to players outside of the established top six clubs and hasn’t been worried about not selecting some of the bigger names. Add to that the fact that he seems a thoroughly decent and intelligent bloke and i find it baffling that he’s being given a tough time.

One poor performance in a qualifying game that will ultimately be irrelevant. Let’s see how we get on in next year’s major tournament where we should be genuine contenders for a place in the final. I think that will be Southgate’s biggest test and surely the time to judge him.
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Re: Southgate's stock is rising !

Post by Quickenthetempo » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:19 am

Southgate has got a job for as long as he wants.

A. Because no decent manager wants the job and
B. Because he picks young exciting players that the public like to watch.

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Re: Southgate's stock is rising !

Post by Stayingup » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:26 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:If Southgate set England up to primarily defend, keep it tight and hope to nick a goal then Im pretty sure apart from playing the best in the world at tournaments we wouldnt concede at all and the defence would look faultless.

Trouble is as England manager averaging 1 point per game is complete failure and wouldnt get us anywhere so we have to push forward, attack and leave ourselves open at times.

He's been a breath of fresh air (SO FAR) as England manager and the main negativity about him on here is because he doesn't think the Burnley players are quite as amazing as what Burnley fans (unsurprisingly ) do
A good post DA but your off target with your last comment. Its hyped up players that are the issue.

Bill Shankly said if you dont concede you dont lose. If then you score you win. In other words be tight at the back in all situations. Dyche philosophy too. But not Southgates I would suggest. The defence was awful last night in a big game.

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Re: Southgate's stock is rising !

Post by Stayingup » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:27 am

Rileybobs wrote:A little unfair methinks. Southgate isn’t blessed with an incredible pool of talent. We’ve got world class players in Kane and Sterling and some exciting young players coming through but he doesn’t have an experienced and dependable goalkeeper, centre back or central midfielder to choose from.

Maybe the run to the WC semi final was a one-off, time will tell. But Southgate has got the public and the media behind a team that two years previous were absolutely vilified. He’s given a hell of a lot of chances to players outside of the established top six clubs and hasn’t been worried about not selecting some of the bigger names. Add to that the fact that he seems a thoroughly decent and intelligent bloke and i find it baffling that he’s being given a tough time.

One poor performance in a qualifying game that will ultimately be irrelevant. Let’s see how we get on in next year’s major tournament where we should be genuine contenders for a place in the final. I think that will be Southgate’s biggest test and surely the time to judge him.
World class? Hmm.

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Re: Southgate's stock is rising !

Post by Rowls » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:29 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:He's been a breath of fresh air (SO FAR) as England manager and the main negativity about him on here is because he doesn't think the Burnley players are quite as amazing as what Burnley fans (unsurprisingly ) do
No it's because his managerial record is utterly abysmal and he is an appalling football manager.

His only "qualification" for the England job was years of abject failure at Middlesbrough. His team couldn't defend and couldn't score goals.

His England team at the World Cup couldn't create chances from open play and were very fortunate to progress as we did.

His only discernible tactic is to play the ball around at the back - seemingly to allow the opposition to take the ball from us in the most dangerous area of the pitch.

This has been pointed out even when Southgate's England were "playing well" at the World Cup. He has lost as many games in 38 matches as Roy Hodgson lost in 56.

Unless he drastically changes his outlook and opinions on how to set up a football team he will continue to fail, whatever level he is at,
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Re: Southgate's stock is rising !

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:31 am

Rowls wrote:No it's because his managerial record is utterly abysmal and he is an appalling football manager.

His only "qualification" for the England job was years of abject failure at Middlesbrough. His team couldn't defend and couldn't score goals.

His England team at the World Cup couldn't create chances from open play and were very fortunate to progress as we did.

His only discernible tactic is to play the ball around at the back - seemingly to allow the opposition to take the ball from us in the most dangerous area of the pitch.

This has been pointed out even when Southgate's England were "playing well" at the World Cup. He has lost as many games in 38 matches as Roy Hodgson lost in 56.

Unless he drastically changes his outlook and opinions on how to set up a football team he will continue to fail, whatever level he is at,
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Stick to child psychology :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Southgate's stock is rising !

Post by IanMcL » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:31 am

He did very well in 'refreshing' the squad and outlook for an underachieving England. He got lucky with a reasonable world cup, although I think that was an underachieviemrnt, in the finality. Should have reached the final.

Unfortunately, he continues to introduce you players, some of whom are lacking in any experience.

He is not managing an U21 squad. He can keep the slightly older and experienced players and build them into an ongoing team.

Instead, he likes the new shiny youngsters, who have hardly seen the light of day and then some more next time.
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Re: Southgate's stock is rising !

Post by Spijed » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:33 am

Rileybobs wrote:A little unfair methinks. Southgate isn’t blessed with an incredible pool of talent. We’ve got world class players in Kane and Sterling and some exciting young players coming through but he doesn’t have an experienced and dependable goalkeeper, centre back or central midfielder to choose from.

Maybe the run to the WC semi final was a one-off, time will tell. But Southgate has got the public and the media behind a team that two years previous were absolutely vilified. He’s given a hell of a lot of chances to players outside of the established top six clubs and hasn’t been worried about not selecting some of the bigger names. Add to that the fact that he seems a thoroughly decent and intelligent bloke and i find it baffling that he’s being given a tough time.

One poor performance in a qualifying game that will ultimately be irrelevant. Let’s see how we get on in next year’s major tournament where we should be genuine contenders for a place in the final. I think that will be Southgate’s biggest test and surely the time to judge him.
Unfortunately, we are set up to attack. People say how good the likes of TAA and Trippier are good at going forward, but fail to mention how average they are when it comes to defending. The same of John Stones and Harry Maguire. Even Pickford isn't as good a goalkeeper as some are saying.

There in lies a huge issue. We simply don't have any good defenders in the team.

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Re: Southgate's stock is rising !

Post by Hipper » Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:20 pm

I take it England lost?!!!
Stayingup wrote:Bill Shankly said if you don't concede you don't lose. If then you score you win.
As you can see from this astute observation, Shankly was a genius.
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Re: Southgate's stock is rising !

Post by fatboy47 » Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:39 pm

IanMcL wrote:He did very well in 'refreshing' the squad and outlook for an underachieving England. He got lucky with a reasonable world cup, although I think that was an underachieviemrnt, in the finality. Should have reached the final.

Unfortunately, he continues to introduce you players, some of whom are lacking in any experience.

He is not managing an U21 squad. He can keep the slightly older and experienced players and build them into an ongoing team.

Instead, he likes the new shiny youngsters, who have hardly seen the light of day and then some more next time.

he likes the ""shiny new youngsters"" but only if they play for fashionable clubs or at least sit on the benches of same

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Re: Southgate's stock is rising !

Post by FactualFrank » Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:45 pm

Rewind not so long ago and England fans were sick of the same team and sticking with players such as Gerrard and Lampard, and that England should be trying out youngsters even if it meant we had to forfeit a major tournament in the process. Now Southgate is bringing through younger players, trying them when we're in a position where we have to be confident of qualifying, and we now have England fans complaining about that. And had we won 5-0 last night? We'd have people saying, "These groups are a waste of time".

It's a funny old game.

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Re: Southgate's stock is rising !

Post by Bfcboyo » Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:46 pm

Shhhhh!

Dyche for England = Burnley for Championship.
Let's keep it Southgate as England boss

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Re: Southgate's stock is rising !

Post by Rowls » Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:50 pm

Yes, Southgate does deserve some credit for bringing in some fresh faces.

Some of them have been justified, others appear to be making up the numbers and there is the lingering suspicion that many of these reserve team players are there based on the size of their club.

Southgate appears to believe that having played well for England U21 is in of itself justification for being promoted to the first team squad rather than looking at a player's relevant club form.

Southgate speaks very articulately and he talks a good game.

But his teams are dire.
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Re: Southgate's stock is rising !

Post by THEWELLERNUT70 » Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:51 pm

Last night Soughgate had a team littered with out of form players and guess what, we played like a team littered with out of form players.

If Tarkowski had been playing for a Liverpool or a Spurs he would already be sitting on 10+ caps
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Re: Southgate's stock is rising !

Post by WestMidsClaret » Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:15 pm

This is exactly what I expected when he got the job. Then he turned my opinion around, now I've gone back to what I knew was going to happen. We looked pretty dangerous going forward last night. But it was far and few between. Pass the ball around the back for a Guinness book of records record then pass it to Henderson who then passed it to the Czech's. The guy is clueless and by that I mean Southgate not just Henderson.

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Re: Southgate's stock is rising !

Post by elwaclaret » Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:28 pm

Cannot say I’ve ever been convinced. I try to avoid being reactionary, and think he should be allowed to carry on his mission to see if long term it pays off... but for me there seems little attention to building a solid unit, always for me a starting point. If you are young and getting attention that is enough for a call up. Building for the future or headless chicken team building...

I remain unable to make a definitive decision on which it is.

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Re: Southgate's stock is rising !

Post by FactualFrank » Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:30 pm

WestMidsClaret wrote:This is exactly what I expected when he got the job. Then he turned my opinion around, now I've gone back to what I knew was going to happen. We looked pretty dangerous going forward last night. But it was far and few between. Pass the ball around the back for a Guinness book of records record then pass it to Henderson who then passed it to the Czech's. The guy is clueless and by that I mean Southgate not just Henderson.
Henderson was comfortably one of our best players at the World Cup last year, yet got knocked then. He's a player a lot of fans don't see until he's missing - however, I agree he's had a few dodgy games for England since then, but is playing well for Liverpool, so perhaps it's also about who he's playing with in midfield.

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Re: Southgate's stock is rising !

Post by Tricky Trevor » Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:40 pm

I’m not a Southgate fan but we did need to bring some youth through. His problem being he has done it to quickly and many of them have not been worthy. Mount has played less than 10 PL games and walks in, Foden has starred for City in the CL and goes with the U21s. Barkley in 10mins looked better than Mount.
This is one of the problems with hardly playing friendlies any more. You have to blood them in meaningful matches.
He has been unfortunate that 4 of his back 5 are out of form but it’s his team to pick.
Much as I love Tripps TAA should be the starter.

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Re: Southgate's stock is rising !

Post by Rileybobs » Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:50 pm

Stayingup wrote:World class? Hmm.
Yes. Harry Kane and Raheem Sterling would walk into almost any side in world football.

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Re: Southgate's stock is rising !

Post by FactualFrank » Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:51 pm

Tricky Trevor wrote:This is one of the problems with hardly playing friendlies any more. You have to blood them in meaningful matches.
I'm happy with that.

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Re: Southgate's stock is rising !

Post by Rowls » Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:54 pm

WestMidsClaret wrote:This is exactly what I expected when he got the job. Then he turned my opinion around, now I've gone back to what I knew was going to happen. We looked pretty dangerous going forward last night. But it was far and few between. Pass the ball around the back for a Guinness book of records record then pass it to Henderson who then passed it to the Czech's. The guy is clueless and by that I mean Southgate not just Henderson.
Yep, I so desperately wanted him to do well.

And there were a few promising signs at the start. He was right, for example, to make the point that Rooney could not be a guaranteed figure based on his past glories.

But the dreadful football that he spearheaded at Middlesbrough was on display even when we got results.

I genuinely fear this England team will be well and truly embarrassed like Brazil were by Germany when they got thrashed 7-1. We are so bad at the back that a good side will tear through us like a bull elephant.

I fear that it could be so bad it will irreparably damage some player's confidence and careers.

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Re: Southgate's stock is rising !

Post by IanMcL » Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:12 pm

Burnley back 5 would add some grit and know how.
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Re: Southgate's stock is rising !

Post by Swizzlestick » Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:20 pm

Rowls wrote:Yep, I so desperately wanted him to do well.

And there were a few promising signs at the start. He was right, for example, to make the point that Rooney could not be a guaranteed figure based on his past glories.

But the dreadful football that he spearheaded at Middlesbrough was on display even when we got results.

I genuinely fear this England team will be well and truly embarrassed like Brazil were by Germany when they got thrashed 7-1. We are so bad at the back that a good side will tear through us like a bull elephant.

I fear that it could be so bad it will irreparably damage some player's confidence and careers.
I’ve read some hysterical overreactions in my time, but this is next level.
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Re: Southgate's stock is rising !

Post by Stayingup » Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:30 pm

Rileybobs wrote:Yes. Harry Kane and Raheem Sterling would walk into almost any side in world football.
Not sure Kane would. It was your definition of world class that I was interested in but you have ki d of defined it. What is Messi then? Universe class? Having a laugh Riley

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Re: Southgate's stock is rising !

Post by WestMidsClaret » Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:31 pm

FactualFrank wrote:Henderson was comfortably one of our best players at the World Cup last year, yet got knocked then. He's a player a lot of fans don't see until he's missing - however, I agree he's had a few dodgy games for England since then, but is playing well for Liverpool, so perhaps it's also about who he's playing with in midfield.
I don't tend to knock players as I watch us live and I'm a proper patriot but if I think someone is playing shite or we are set up wrong or tactics aren't helping us I'll say so. I usually defend England/Burnley players to the hilt but it's easy for Henderson to play in a team that's at the top of their game. He's been on the bench for a lot of games for Liverpool.

Anyway I'm not saying he's stealing a living or out I'm just saying what I saw last night. I don't get Southgate's game plan. I'm no Alex Ferguson but I like to think I know a little bit about football but really struggle to see what Southgate wants to achieve in games. If it's to win, which it obviously is, then why couldn't he see that we were dangerous when we got forward and told the defence/midfield to play it faster through the channels instead of passing it around the back for around 300,000 passes (slight exaggeration but you know what I mean). It's almost as if he doesn't know what to do with the players he's picking and they play like that.

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Re: Southgate's stock is rising !

Post by Rileybobs » Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:39 pm

Stayingup wrote:Not sure Kane would. It was your definition of world class that I was interested in but you have ki d of defined it. What is Messi then? Universe class? Having a laugh Riley
Yeah, no worries. Messi and Ronaldo have been on another level for the past 10 years are so. But there are still plenty of other world class players out there. Sterling is England’s most obvious one at the minute - and whilst Kane can blow hot and cold I’d still put him in that bracket. If he was available (which he might soon be) he will he sought by all clubs that can afford him.

England’s problem is that we don’t have the spine that is so important at that level. In the day Hart, Cole, Ferdinand and Terry were all considered world class - we aren’t blessed with such riches so Southgate should be judged accordingly.

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Re: Southgate's stock is rising !

Post by WestMidsClaret » Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:53 pm

Rowls wrote:Yep, I so desperately wanted him to do well.

And there were a few promising signs at the start. He was right, for example, to make the point that Rooney could not be a guaranteed figure based on his past glories.

But the dreadful football that he spearheaded at Middlesbrough was on display even when we got results.

I genuinely fear this England team will be well and truly embarrassed like Brazil were by Germany when they got thrashed 7-1. We are so bad at the back that a good side will tear through us like a bull elephant.

I fear that it could be so bad it will irreparably damage some player's confidence and careers.
Paul, I don't think things will get that bad because we've had better squads and players that have been through the same thing in fact the better teams haven't achieved what the current lot have on the international scene. We probably should've won euro '96. France '98 we should've got further and were unlucky. The "golden generation" were let down by team selection/tactics and they didn't play to their potential. I don't think we've ever been embarrassed or will do because we haven't had the success Brazil/Germany have. We've flattered to deceive a lot.

There's no passion in that England team really. It's missing the fight. That gets instilled by the manager and picking the right sort of player. We're now an easy touch. Look at all the good teams yes they can lose but they go out there with their chests puffed out believing they will win.

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Re: Southgate's stock is rising !

Post by TheFamilyCat » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:16 pm

Rileybobs wrote:Yeah, no worries. Messi and Ronaldo have been on another level for the past 10 years are so. But there are still plenty of other world class players out there. Sterling is England’s most obvious one at the minute - and whilst Kane can blow hot and cold I’d still put him in that bracket. If he was available (which he might soon be) he will he sought by all clubs that can afford him.

England’s problem is that we don’t have the spine that is so important at that level. In the day Hart, Cole, Ferdinand and Terry were all considered world class - we aren’t blessed with such riches so Southgate should be judged accordingly.
While I agree that we aren't overly blessed with top quality players, a manager should be judged on what he do with them.

Southgate's problem is that all our best players are attackers so he is lacking in other areas. But he should still because able to find a system that is effective in utilising the attacking threat while being more resilient in defence.

Teams with less ability than England have prospered by recognising their limitations and finding ways to win games.

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Re: Southgate's stock is rising !

Post by Greenmile » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:27 pm

Stayingup wrote:Not sure Kane would. It was your definition of world class that I was interested in but you have ki d of defined it. What is Messi then? Universe class? Having a laugh Riley
Messi is (or was), along with Ronaldo, deserving of a classification above “world class”. I’m not sure I’d go with “universe class”, though - it sounds a bit ****.

That doesn’t mean the likes of Kane and Sterling couldn’t reasonably be described as “world class”, though.

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Re: Southgate's stock is rising !

Post by taio » Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:46 am

Greenmile wrote:Messi is (or was), along with Ronaldo, deserving of a classification above “world class”. I’m not sure I’d go with “universe class”, though - it sounds a bit ****.

That doesn’t mean the likes of Kane and Sterling couldn’t reasonably be described as “world class”, though.
Neither of them can be regarded as world class yet in my eyes. Very good, yes. World class? No. A player must be performing at the very highest level year after year to be regarded as world class. Overused definition.

Rileybobs
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Re: Southgate's stock is rising !

Post by Rileybobs » Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:42 am

taio wrote:Neither of them can be regarded as world class yet in my eyes. Very good, yes. World class? No. A player must be performing at the very highest level year after year to be regarded as world class. Overused definition.
Harry Kane; 130 PL goals in 189 appearances.

willsclarets
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Re: Southgate's stock is rising !

Post by willsclarets » Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:36 am

We lost a qualifying game and played poorly with out of form players, that's all. We do have personnel problems at the back but I'd hardly say Mee or Tarkowski were a blindingly obvious solution. In fact I'd dismiss Mee totally given his ability on the ball. But it doesn't matter for us. Both he and Tarks defends in a low block, in a team that doesn't try to play football in their own half. Tarks has the ability to play in a different system, but it matters he's not doing it week in week out.

So pushing aside the idea that players from a "top team" get preference, he probably would get more game time if he was a regular at say Liverpool, where the line is higher and there's more of a requirement to transition on the deck.

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Re: Southgate's stock is rising !

Post by Colburn_Claret » Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:09 am

We were bloody awful, but the reaction is a bit hard. I never thought Southgate was the man for the job, but I was wrong, he's done fine. Bringing a lot of youngsters in and taking the squad forward.
Fridays problems were pretty obvious, but i think part of the problem was selecting too many losers. By losers I mean Pickford and Keane, lost 4 in a row with Everton. Maguire and Rashford, playing in a shite Man U side. Kane and Rose with Spurs struggling, even Sterling with Citeh out of sorts. Half the team were struggling on the domestic front and we expect them to hit the heights for England, I don't think so.
The same team could come good once the confidence is back, and they sort out the big gap between the midfield and attack, but although we'll probably win on Monday, I dont think they'll look much better than Friday.

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Re: Southgate's stock is rising !

Post by jrgbfc » Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:36 am

taio wrote:Neither of them can be regarded as world class yet in my eyes. Very good, yes. World class? No. A player must be performing at the very highest level year after year to be regarded as world class. Overused definition.
To me World class means you'd get in any team in the world, I'd say Sterling and Kane are just about in that category.
It's tough for Southgate as the likes of Gomez and Foden aren't getting game time at their clubs, and the likes of Stones and Dele Alli seem to be going backwards, despite showing so much early promise. Not sure what his thinking is with the full backs though, for me TAA and Chilwell are by far our best options.

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