Begum ‘risk of hanging’

fidelcastro · Post by **fidelcastro** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:22 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Any crimes she was a part of were done in a foreign country, let then put her on trial and punish her under their laws, if she's found guilty.

How would she get a fair trial in Syria? Are there even any courts left, that haven't been bombed out of existence?

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:23 pm

ClaretAndJew wrote:Well, considering that there was someone in the US tried in 2010 who was put on death row and released in 2017 due to wrongful conviction, I'd say it's not a conspiracy.

It does happen rarely I don't know the exact circumstances with the US case in 2010, obviously doubt was there then for the release in 2017, when you are 100% certain supported by irrefutable evidence, a valid argument exists for capital punishment without any legal processes some people would state & agree.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:23 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:You could quite easily trim the costs though, the costs incurred will be legal & appeals ect, implementing straightway without going through that will be very minimal, effectively it's the electric powering up the chair & a disposal of a body frankly put.

Unbelievable post, and not in a good way.

ClaretAndJew · Post by **ClaretAndJew** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:24 pm

fidelcastro wrote:How would she get a fair trial in Syria? Are there even any courts left, that haven't been bombed out of existence?

Aye considering Syria don't control large portions of Syria it wouldn't be the fairest of trials.

Blackrod · Post by **Blackrod** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:24 pm

ClaretAndJew wrote:Costs more to execute prisoners than it does to keep them locked up for life.

It shouldn’t though. I’m sure plenty would finish a a heanous criminal off for £100 plus expenses. Maybe another £200 for someone to clear up any mess.

In this instance I’m not pro her being hanged necessarily but it is up to another country what they do. I am more against this being used as an excuse to try and get her back here by her imo low moral lawyers.

fidelcastro · Post by **fidelcastro** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:25 pm

Tall Paul wrote:Unbelieveable post, and not in a good way.

Let’s make the state a killer!

We'll have the moral high ground then!

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:26 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:It does happen rarely I don't know the exact circumstances with the US case in 2010, obviously doubt was there then for the release in 2017, when you are 100% certain supported by irrefutable evidence, a valid argument exists for capital punishment without any legal processes some people would state & agree.

You said it's impossible to be 100% that Boris Johnson is a liar unless he's lied directly to your face in person. By your logic it must be impossible to be 100% sure that someone is a murderer unless you watched them do it.

ClaretAndJew · Post by **ClaretAndJew** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:27 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:It does happen rarely I don't know the exact circumstances with the US case in 2010, obviously doubt was there then for the release in 2017, when you are 100% certain supported by irrefutable evidence, a valid argument exists for capital punishment without any legal processes some people would state & agree.

I'm not debating the legitimate nature of capital crimes because of course there are 100% definites.

The point of the legal system is to allow people to appeal to have their cases looked at. This takes time and ultimately, money.

With the death penalty this happens more because for some it's a case of slowing the wheels down until execution date, which again, costs money.

It's the law and it's fair.

ClaretAndJew · Post by **ClaretAndJew** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:27 pm

Blackrod wrote:It shouldn’t though. I’m sure plenty would finish a a heanous criminal off for £100 plus expenses. Maybe another £200 for someone to clear up any mess.

In this instance I’m not pro her being hanged necessarily but it is up to another country what they do. I am more against this being used as an excuse to try and get her back here by her imo low moral lawyers.

And after you've executed someone who later turns out wasn't guilty?

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:28 pm

Blackrod wrote:It shouldn’t though. I’m sure plenty would finish a a heanous criminal off for £100 plus expenses. Maybe another £200 for someone to clear up any mess.

I didn't think it was possible to top Jakub's post, but you seem to have managed it.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:28 pm

Tall Paul wrote:You said it's impossible to be 100% that Boris Johnson is a liar. By your logic it must be impossible to be 100% sure that someone is a murderer unless you watched them do it.

Supported by irrefutable scientific evidence, I'm not sure what somebody's read in the guardian ect passes that same meticulous threshold.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:30 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:Supported by irrefutable scientific evidence, I'm not sure what somebody's read in the guardian ect passes that same meticulous threshold.

Your petard has just penetrated right up to the sweet spot Jakub I'm afraid

fidelcastro · Post by **fidelcastro** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:30 pm

ClaretAndJew wrote:And after you've executed someone who later turns out wasn't guilty?

I'll bet Barry George would've swung under Blackrod's logic!

ClaretAndJew · Post by **ClaretAndJew** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:31 pm

fidelcastro wrote:I'll bet Barry George would've swung under Blackrod's logic!

Kill them all and then apologise for it later.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:31 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:They can only remove it if it doesn't render someone stateless, even you know that one.

without. a. trial.

How are you going to prove that you would be rendered stateless when the government decides to remove your citizenship because they decide they don't like you?

Blackrod · Post by **Blackrod** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:45 pm

Tall Paul wrote:I didn't think it was possible to top Jakub's post, but you seem to have managed it.

Probably in line with the low costs of the previous official executioner. It was always carried out professionally and clinically. I doubt the recently appointed executioners in Sri Lanka are paid generous amounts either.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:46 pm

Blackrod wrote:Probably in line with the low costs of the previous official executioner. It was always carried out professionally and clinically. I doubt the recently appointed executioners in Sri Lanka are paid generous amounts either.

So we send our 100% without a doubt guilty suspects to be executed in Sri Lanka?

How do they execute prisoners over there btw?

ClaretAndJew · Post by **ClaretAndJew** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:46 pm

Blackrod wrote:Probably in line with the low costs of the previous official executioner. It was always carried out professionally and clinically. I doubt the recently appointed executioners in Sri Lanka are paid generous amounts either.

Shall we adopt a Sri Lankan judiciary system?

Blackrod · Post by **Blackrod** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:52 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:So we send our 100% without a doubt guilty suspects to be executed in Sri Lanka?

How do they execute prisoners over there btw?

Well they’ve had a moratorium on it for 40 years plus although they have people on death row. They are reintroducing it on the back of the terrorist attacks. I think they are proposing the method of hanging. As they had appointed a few I thought they might be going for firing squad ( I would favour a few) but I think it is more for rotational purposes and cover.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:58 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:Supported by irrefutable scientific evidence, I'm not sure what somebody's read in the guardian ect passes that same meticulous threshold.

"Irrefutable scientific evidence"

Such as? Give me an example of "irrefutable scientific evidence" on which you are comfortable sentencing someone to death, please.

Spike · Post by **Spike** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:05 pm

Until ISIS becomes a peace loving organisation rather than a bunch of mass murderers then she cannot be allowed to return to the UK.

she simply cannot be trusted

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:05 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:"Irrefutable scientific evidence"

Such as? Give me an example of "irrefutable scientific evidence" on which you are comfortable sentencing someone to death, please.

Well the criteria would be reliable credible witnesses if applicable, motive/motives, semen/saliva/blood samples the decisive 1s really, & admission of guilt would be a plus point, tried by a jury. Put it this way a lot more to be certain than BJ is a liar than on the back of waking up getting up getting out of bed & reading a newspaper.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:06 pm

fidelcastro wrote:How would she get a fair trial in Syria? Are there even any courts left, that haven't been bombed out of existence?

I'm sure they can knock something together to deal with a foreign invader.

ClaretAndJew · Post by **ClaretAndJew** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:06 pm

Spike wrote:Until ISIS becomes a peace loving organisation rather than a bunch of mass murderers then she cannot be allowed to return to the UK.

she simply cannot be trusted

You do know she's not being allowed to just freely wander around in the UK, don't you?

She's not "coming home" to live her life like nothing happened, she would be arrested, prosecuted, tried, etc.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:08 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:Well the criteria would be reliable credible witnesses if applicable, motive/motives, semen/saliva/blood samples the decisive 1s really, & admission of guilt would be a plus point, tried by a jury. Put it this way a lot more to be certain than BJ is a liar than on the back of waking up getting up getting out of bed & reading a newspaper.

So not "irrefutable scientific evidence" then.

Are you aware that we still convict people of crimes they didn't commit?
Are you aware that in the US people still get convicted and sentenced to death for crimes they didn't commit?

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:10 pm

Even by the standards of some of the posters on here I am still surprised that this thread has managed to descend to even darker depths than when I last read it this morning.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:11 pm

ClaretAndJew wrote:You do know she's not being allowed to just freely wander around in the UK, don't you?

She's not "coming home" to live her life like nothing happened, she would be arrested, prosecuted, tried, etc.

If jailed, it wouldn't be forever, she'd be out eventually and carry on with her life.

During her time in a UK jail she'd be made a martyr by recruiters for Islamic terror groups, whether she agreed with that or not.
There's also the chance that when freed she'd willingly carry on believing what IS stand for, want to do etc.

I know some people have got it into their heads that she's going to return home and go back to be a normal peace loving person, but it's not guaranteed.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:12 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:So not "irrefutable scientific evidence" then.

OK then, the samples to be analysed & tested in a stringent approved laboratory by qualified professional scientists to determine the results & conclusion beyond doubt. Is that good enough?

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:13 pm

BennyD wrote:Of course I was, because I knew we would end up to our necks in it. We still are, and that’s why I couldn’t give a dead rat’s ass about trash like Begum.

But you said 'I don’t care about murders or any other crime that happens around the world unless it affects me or my family and friends.'

So which is it? Do you care about murders and terrorist atrocities that don't affect you or not? Or do you only care when the murders and terrorist atrocities are committed against people more like you?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:13 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:OK then, the samples to be analysed & tested in a stringent approved laboratory by qualified professional scientists to determine the results & conclusion beyond doubt. Is that good enough?

No. Not for killing people.

ClaretAndJew · Post by **ClaretAndJew** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:14 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:If jailed, it wouldn't be forever, she'd be out eventually and carry on with her life.

During her time in a UK jail she'd be made a martyr by recruiters for Islamic terror groups, whether she agreed with that or not.
There's also the chance that when freed she'd willingly carry on believing what IS stand for, want to do etc.

I know some people have got it into their heads that she's going to return home and go back to be a normal peace loving person, but it's not guaranteed.

I highly doubt she would be released from prison without some form of monitoring.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:15 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:If jailed, it wouldn't be forever, she'd be out eventually and carry on with her life.

During her time in a UK jail she'd be made a martyr by recruiters for Islamic terror groups, whether she agreed with that or not.
There's also the chance that when freed she'd willingly carry on believing what IS stand for, want to do etc.

I know some people have got it into their heads that she's going to return home and go back to be a normal peace loving person, but it's not guaranteed.

lol. Sure, Sid. The Islamic Groups are definitely going to use someone who left them, someone who got out of their clutches and survived, as a martyr and recruitment tool.

And yes, there would be a risk of recidivism. So what? That's a risk with everyone, no matter the crime. Why is she to be treated differently to them?

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:18 pm

Rileybobs wrote:Even by the standards of some of the posters on here I am still surprised that this thread has managed to descend to even darker depths than when I last read it this morning.

I didn't think I could read anything on here that would surprise me any more. I was wrong, sadly.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:32 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:lol. Sure, Sid. The Islamic Groups are definitely going to use someone who left them, someone who got out of their clutches and survived, as a martyr and recruitment tool.

And yes, there would be a risk of recidivism. So what? That's a risk with everyone, no matter the crime. Why is she to be treated differently to them?

She only got out because they were defeated.
She's not the only one out there either, just making the most noise.

Yeah why should we treat someone different when they've seen heinous crimes being committed and potentially took part or encouraged those acts.

This is why it's an issue debating this with you, because you don't understand the point of view of people who don't want terrorists/members of terror groups, wandering the streets to potentially carry on promoting their ideology.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:33 pm

ClaretAndJew wrote:I highly doubt she would be released from prison without some form of monitoring.

Yeah and that's always worked out well, plus the financial costs etc.

If the Syrian's can deal with here then let them, it was their country where any crimes were committed.

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:34 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:This is why it's an issue debating this with you, because you don't understand the point of view of people who don't want terrorists/members of terror groups, wandering the streets to potentially carry on promoting their ideology.

But nobody, literally nobody (apart from terrorists) want Begum or any other terrorist wandering the streets.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:47 pm

If Jakub could meet anybody sentenced to death face to face and use his common sense and good character judgement. Im confident with the Jakub process in place we needn't worry about the possibility we are executing an innocent person

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:09 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:She only got out because they were defeated.
She's not the only one out there either, just making the most noise.

Yeah why should we treat someone different when they've seen heinous crimes being committed and potentially took part or encouraged those acts.

This is why it's an issue debating this with you, because you don't understand the point of view of people who don't want terrorists/members of terror groups, wandering the streets to potentially carry on promoting their ideology.

I do understand your point of view, and i'm challenging it and you're falling short of defending your point. This is why you're pathetically resorting to implying that i "want terrorists/members of terror groups, wandering the streets to potentially carry on promoting their ideology" by position me on the opposing side of those who don't want that. And THAT'S the problem with debating an issue with people like you. You see me as the enemy. You see me as someone who is arguing in favour of allowing terrorists to promote their ideology here.

What you are incapable of understanding is that I am arguing in favour of our principles, not in favour of terrorists' ideology, because your politics have become so extremist that you think anyone defending the right to a fair trial for everyone who commits a crime against us is the same as being on the side of those who commit crimes against us.

If we want equality under the law then Begum deserves a fair trial every bit as much as you do if you commit ANY crime. You are struggling to see that because you've become so narrow minded that you can't see past Begum and your hatred for her and you're missing the wider implications of allowing a government to deny certain people that right to a fair trial.

You can't trust a justice system that says that some people deserve a fair trial and some don't based on the crimes they're accused of, because then literally anyone can be accused of a crime for which the government deems the accused ineligible to a trial. And if that happens, and you're innocent, how do you prove your innocence?

fidelcastro · Post by **fidelcastro** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:11 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:I'm sure they can knock something together to deal with a foreign invader.

A kangaroo court, you mean?

ClaretAndJew · Post by **ClaretAndJew** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:11 pm

Right wing politics is eerily in line with terrorist ideology.

Holmeclaret · Post by **Holmeclaret** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:26 pm

ClaretAndJew wrote:Right wing politics is eerily in line with terrorist ideology.

All forms of extremism try to claim a self righteous moral high ground. History has shown over and again that the result is the same - death camps or similar. It’s the only logical conclusion to the the idea that all ills are caused by the ‘other’.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:27 pm

fidelcastro wrote:A kangaroo court, you mean?

I think Jihadi Jack from Oxford is currently being held by the Kurds.
So I'm not fussed who deals with the terrorists.

He's another who had his British citizenship revoked.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49385376" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:34 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:I do understand your point of view, and i'm challenging it and you're falling short of defending your point. This is why you're pathetically resorting to implying that i "want terrorists/members of terror groups, wandering the streets to potentially carry on promoting their ideology" by position me on the opposing side of those who don't want that. And THAT'S the problem with debating an issue with people like you. You see me as the enemy. You see me as someone who is arguing in favour of allowing terrorists to promote their ideology here.

What you are incapable of understanding is that I am arguing in favour of our principles, not in favour of terrorists' ideology, because your politics have become so extremist that you think anyone defending the right to a fair trial for everyone who commits a crime against us is the same as being on the side of those who commit crimes against us.

If we want equality under the law then Begum deserves a fair trial every bit as much as you do if you commit ANY crime. You are struggling to see that because you've become so narrow minded that you can't see past Begum and your hatred for her and you're missing the wider implications of allowing a government to deny certain people that right to a fair trial.

You can't trust a justice system that says that some people deserve a fair trial and some don't based on the crimes they're accused of, because then literally anyone can be accused of a crime for which the government deems the accused ineligible to a trial. And if that happens, and you're innocent, how do you prove your innocence?

I don't see you as an enemy.

I don't hate Begum, just her ideology and hatred of the west, I feel the same way about Jihadi Jack from Oxford.
I'm not struggling with anything, you're the one spanking one out to what you think I'm seeing/thinking.
I'm perfectly clear about what I think of terrorists, all of them, regardless of skin colour or which religion they follow.

They can have their trials over in the countries where their alleged crimes were committed, they don't need or deserve to have them over here because at present they haven't committed any over here.

As for me being a political extremist, nah you should look in the mirror first.
Politically I'm not an extremist, you're labelling me because you don't like what I'm saying and labelling people is what you like to do, you're predictable that way.

You're also paranoid to **** about being dragged to jail by the government for a crime you didn't commit, whereas I don't worry about it because it won't happen to me.

fidelcastro · Post by **fidelcastro** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:36 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:I think Jihadi Jack from Oxford is currently being held by the Kurds.
So I'm not fussed who deals with the terrorists.

He's another who had his British citizenship revoked.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49385376" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's alright then.

Personally, I think even the worst kind of criminals are entitled to a fair trial.

If they don't get that, then how can we be sure that cases of contention are dealt with fairly and correctly?

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:37 pm

fidelcastro wrote:That's alright then.

Personally, I think even the worst kind of criminals are entitled to a fair trial.

If they don't get that, then how can we be sure that cases of contention are dealt with fairly and correctly?

Where do you think their case should be heard?

The country where their alleged crimes were committed or back in their home country?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:39 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: You're also paranoid to **** about being dragged to jail by the government for a crime you didn't commit, whereas I don't worry about it because it won't happen to me.

This is such a foolish comment.

I don't mind if other people's rights are removed because it won't happen to me.

"First they came ..."

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:42 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Where do you think their case should be heard?

The country where their alleged crimes were committed or back in their home country?

Now you seem to be suggesting that Begum might not even have committed crimes here.

fidelcastro · Post by **fidelcastro** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:43 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Where do you think their case should be heard?

The country where their alleged crimes were committed or back in their home country?

Personally, I'd try her here.

It's debatable what she'd be on trial for, and that's for the intelligence services, police and courts etc to decide, but I'm much more confident of the correct outcome being delivered in the UK than in a country in the middle of a civil war.

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:45 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:I am confused.
I don’t criticise anyone on their beliefs, that my point. I treat them all with respect.

I don’t have a belief, religion is bullsh1t.

But I have a fear on the rise of the Muslim population.

Why do you fear an increase in the Muslim population?

fidelcastro · Post by **fidelcastro** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:48 pm

AndrewJB wrote:Why do you fear an increase in the Muslim population?

Shariah law, I would imagine...

Even though he won't be able to tell you exactly what that is!