39 bodies found in lorry container in Essex

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Imploding Turtle
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Re: 39 bodies found in lorry container in Essex

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:18 pm

fidelcastro wrote:Do you think anyone believes you?
Repeat a lie enough times and even the liar can start to believe it. Stayingup has never come across to me as the kind of person who has the capacity to be immune to their own lies.

bfcmik
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Re: 39 bodies found in lorry container in Essex

Post by bfcmik » Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:42 pm

Stayingup wrote:EU border controls? What are they? Its open borders
Actually they are not encouraged to stop illegals because they know where they are headed for and its not mainland Europe
Almost every country in Europe has more 'illegals' (or economic migrants as less right wing people label them) living within their borders than the UK. Despite what the rabid Tory press and extreme right wing internet memes tell people we do not offer a life of luxury to immigrants, legal or otherwise. Of course, by the standards of the places they come from we may appear to be a place of milk and honey with golden pavements because even our 'poor' are incredibly wealthy in comparison with the majority of people in most parts of the 3rd world.

And, having driven abroad for many years I can assure you that spot checks take place all over Europe.

nil_desperandum
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Re: 39 bodies found in lorry container in Essex

Post by nil_desperandum » Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:55 pm

bfcmik wrote:
And, having driven abroad for many years I can assure you that spot checks take place all over Europe.
They do indeed. Only this month I was travelling out of Germany into one of the old Eastern European states on a minibus.We were stopped at the "border", (on the German side) and all ordered off and our papers were checked.
2 passengers were detained for the best part of an hour, whilst we all had to just sit there. (Luggage was checked too).
Eventually the "suspects" had their papers returned and we got on our way, but having a guard covering the minibus with an automatic weapon during this time wasn't a pleasant experience.
The driver told us that being stopped / searched was not such an uncommon experience.

barracuda
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Re: 39 bodies found in lorry container in Essex

Post by barracuda » Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:15 pm

Argue among yourselves (as you do)... but really, to find the culpable, the rozzers need to look up and up the chain... and then maybe up some more
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Re: 39 bodies found in lorry container in Essex

Post by Bin Ont Turf » Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:34 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:They do indeed. Only this month I was travelling out of Germany into one of the old Eastern European states on a minibus.We were stopped at the "border", (on the German side) and all ordered off and our papers were checked.
2 passengers were detained for the best part of an hour, whilst we all had to just sit there. (Luggage was checked too).
Eventually the "suspects" had their papers returned and we got on our way, but having a guard covering the minibus with an automatic weapon during this time wasn't a pleasant experience.
The driver told us that being stopped / searched was not such an uncommon experience.
Just trying to get my head around this.

Old Eastern European states?

A guard?

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Re: 39 bodies found in lorry container in Essex

Post by nil_desperandum » Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:45 pm

Bin Ont Turf wrote:Just trying to get my head around this.

Old Eastern European states?

A guard?
Ok.
Don't know what you're questioning really.
Anyway: Germany into Poland.
Traffic directed off the autobahn using a semi-permanent barrier. (i.e. a structure that is there permanently but can be opened or closed.
All vehicles had to then go into / through a sort of large lay-by.
Most cars were waved through, most vans, trucks and minibuses were stopped, and drivers interviewed, documents checked etc.
As I said our driver, Polish, said it wasn't that unusual.
A guard? Well some sort of border police / enforcement officer, (German),and some police there too with weapons. (Not sure what other word / term you expect me to use?)
Apparently checks of this type are discouraged by the EU within the Schengen area, but not forbidden, and have become much more common in the past 4 years.

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Re: 39 bodies found in lorry container in Essex

Post by Bin Ont Turf » Sat Oct 26, 2019 12:03 am

nil_desperandum wrote:Ok.
Don't know what you're questioning really.
Anyway: Germany into Poland.
Traffic directed off the autobahn using a semi-permanent barrier. (i.e. a structure that is there permanently but can be opened or closed.
All vehicles had to then go into / through a sort of large lay-by.
Most cars were waved through, most vans, trucks and minibuses were stopped, and drivers interviewed, documents checked etc.
As I said our driver, Polish, said it wasn't that unusual.
A guard? Well some sort of border police / enforcement officer, (German),and some police there too with weapons. (Not sure what other word / term you expect me to use?)
I suppose Poland is an 'old European state'. There were only two choices anyway,

I was going from Germany to Poland. Instead you made it read like you'd leapt over the Berlin Wall (the other way to less freedom). :D

Yes, German police carry guns.

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Re: 39 bodies found in lorry container in Essex

Post by HieronymousBoschHobs » Sat Oct 26, 2019 4:58 am

Frontex is the organisation in charge of policing the EU borders: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_ ... ard_Agency" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tragedies like this will continue to happen, and will get even worse as climate change hits the global south. Prosperous nations need to ditch the populist crap and start working out how to deal with migratory flows collectively.
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Re: 39 bodies found in lorry container in Essex

Post by nil_desperandum » Sat Oct 26, 2019 6:24 am

Bin Ont Turf wrote:I suppose Poland is an 'old European state'. There were only two choices anyway,

I was going from Germany to Poland. Instead you made it read like you'd leapt over the Berlin Wall (the other way to less freedom). :D

Yes, German police carry guns.
Not sure why you had a problem with my post.
(I didn't say "old European state" incidentally).
I didn't say Poland in my initial post, as I prefer not to give away too much info about myself, (and where I've recently been etc) so as to remain as anonymous as possible on here.
I did however refer to it being a former Eastern block state, because, (apparently) checks are much more likely in that region. [As you say only 2 options anyway, so not that difficult to work out]
I used the term "guard" because they were border guards, and yes they carried guns, (but that's what I said, so again, not sure why you questioned the term).
Anyway, I was merely reinforcing the point that border checks within Schengen are not so rare as some people claim. {And implicitly - of course - a reminder to all that when travelling around Europe you must ensure that you always have your identity documents with you, or you could make life very difficult for yourself}

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Re: 39 bodies found in lorry container in Essex

Post by Bordeauxclaret » Sat Oct 26, 2019 7:28 am

Venomous sandal wearers getting annoyed about how people describe European countries now.

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Re: 39 bodies found in lorry container in Essex

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sat Oct 26, 2019 4:36 pm

Change of plan, they're Vietnamese...

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Re: 39 bodies found in lorry container in Essex

Post by thatdberight » Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:27 pm

The driver has been charged with manslaughter as well as people trafficking and money laundering offences.

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Re: 39 bodies found in lorry container in Essex

Post by FactualFrank » Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:31 pm

thatdberight wrote:The driver has been charged with manslaughter as well as people trafficking and money laundering offences.
Ouch. I wonder if found guilty, it would be as straightforward as a manslaughter sentence (often seems to be 2-10 years from the bit I've read) multiplied by 39. Meaning if he got 2 years, it would mean a 78 year sentence.

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Re: 39 bodies found in lorry container in Essex

Post by BurnleyFC » Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:36 pm

thatdberight wrote:The driver has been charged with manslaughter as well as people trafficking and money laundering offences.
He can't have been.

He's a good egg and should be released immediately according to most of the Facebook experts.

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Re: 39 bodies found in lorry container in Essex

Post by thatdberight » Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:48 pm

FactualFrank wrote:Ouch. I wonder if found guilty, it would be as straightforward as a manslaughter sentence (often seems to be 2-10 years from the bit I've read) multiplied by 39. Meaning if he got 2 years, it would mean a 78 year sentence.
No. It wouldn't.

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Re: 39 bodies found in lorry container in Essex

Post by thatdberight » Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:49 pm

BurnleyFC wrote:He can't have been.

He's a good egg and should be released immediately according to most of the Facebook experts.
Whereas, you know he's not just because he's been charged?

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Re: 39 bodies found in lorry container in Essex

Post by FactualFrank » Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:58 pm

thatdberight wrote:No. It wouldn't.
Oh. Right.

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Re: 39 bodies found in lorry container in Essex

Post by BurnleyFC » Sat Oct 26, 2019 6:08 pm

thatdberight wrote:Whereas, you know he's not just because he's been charged?
If the police had nothing on him, he'd have been released by now.
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Re: 39 bodies found in lorry container in Essex

Post by thatdberight » Sat Oct 26, 2019 6:34 pm

BurnleyFC wrote:If the police had nothing on him, he'd have been released by now.
Excellent. This will save all the hassle and expense of one of those "trial" things.

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Re: 39 bodies found in lorry container in Essex

Post by FactualFrank » Sat Oct 26, 2019 6:42 pm

BurnleyFC wrote:If the police had nothing on him, he'd have been released by now.
thatdberight wrote:Excellent. This will save all the hassle and expense of one of those "trial" things.
He's right, and your reply makes no sense, whatsoever.

They were given another 24 hours to question him - the police need permission for this and it's only given if they have something on him. At the end of that they also can't charge him unless they have enough evidence to do so - they also need permission to do that.

They would have HAD to have released him if they had nothing on him 'pending further investigation'. They can't just keep extending the time he's in custody for, you know.

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Re: 39 bodies found in lorry container in Essex

Post by thatdberight » Sat Oct 26, 2019 6:46 pm

FactualFrank wrote:He's right, and your reply makes no sense, whatsoever.

They were given another 24 hours to question him - the police need permission for this and it's only given if they have something on him. At the end of that they also can't charge him unless they have enough evidence to do so - they also need permission to do that.

They would have HAD to have released him if they had nothing on him 'pending further investigation'. They can't just keep extending the time he's in custody for, you know.
I think you're misreading the exchange and I don't know what your point is to be honest.

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Re: 39 bodies found in lorry container in Essex

Post by FactualFrank » Sat Oct 26, 2019 6:47 pm

thatdberight wrote:I think you're misreading the exchange and I don't know what your point is to be honest.
Good. Let's leave it like that then.

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Re: 39 bodies found in lorry container in Essex

Post by Nonayforever » Sat Oct 26, 2019 8:47 pm

It now appears that some of the Vietnamese families paid up to £30,000 for family members to be "smuggled" into Britain.

Why not just catch a flight for £500 & then " disappear".

I really don't get it.

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Re: 39 bodies found in lorry container in Essex

Post by Marney&Mee » Sat Oct 26, 2019 9:00 pm

Nonayforever wrote:It now appears that some of the Vietnamese families paid up to £30,000 for family members to be "smuggled" into Britain.

Why not just catch a flight for £500 & then " disappear".

I really don't get it.
I’ve seen that figure as well. The average wage in Vietnam is less than $2k a year. If someone could get their hands on £30k, why leave Vietnam. You’d have a great life there??

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Re: 39 bodies found in lorry container in Essex

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Sat Oct 26, 2019 9:09 pm

thatdberight wrote:The driver has been charged with manslaughter as well as people trafficking and money laundering offences.
Hopefuly if guilty he leads to the wider, biggee culprits being found and tried. Highly unlikely though.
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Re: 39 bodies found in lorry container in Essex

Post by thatdberight » Sat Oct 26, 2019 9:11 pm

Marney&Mee wrote:I’ve seen that figure as well. The average wage in Vietnam is less than $2k a year. If someone could get their hands on £30k, why leave Vietnam. You’d have a great life there??
Not quite true - GDP on a PPP basis in about a sixth of that in the UK. But still, the equivalent of £180-200k capital would seem to be a lot to risk. I don't understand the economics of this since it seems to have been economics driving the migration.

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Re: 39 bodies found in lorry container in Essex

Post by Nonayforever » Sun Oct 27, 2019 10:32 am

thatdberight wrote:The driver has been charged with manslaughter as well as people trafficking and money laundering offences.
This case seems quite amazing for its inaccuracies.
First reports centred on Bulgarians, then Chinese, now Vietnamese.
By all recent reports, the Vietnamese paid for and were willing to travel, that's smuggling - not trafficking.
Trafficking is for more serious as it's against the persons wish.

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Re: 39 bodies found in lorry container in Essex

Post by thatdberight » Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:00 am

Nonayforever wrote:This case seems quite amazing for its inaccuracies.
It's the modern way. No-one can wait for the authorities to do their job so they are forced to brief early and inaccurately. Add to that the undue credence given to media gobshites and this is what you get. But you've got to communicate even before you know the facts or Lily Allen will fill the void with her batshit crazy theories.
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Re: 39 bodies found in lorry container in Essex

Post by Suratclaret » Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:28 am

Nonayforever wrote:It now appears that some of the Vietnamese families paid up to £30,000 for family members to be "smuggled" into Britain.

Why not just catch a flight for £500 & then " disappear".

I really don't get it.
If they fly, they would need a visa. Without one, it's unlikely they would even be allowed to board the aircraft let alone get through immigration at a UK airport. Getting a visa is not easy.

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Re: 39 bodies found in lorry container in Essex

Post by evensteadiereddie » Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:10 pm

Bordeauxclaret wrote:Venomous sandal wearers getting annoyed about how people describe European countries now.

Venomous sandals ? I gotta get myself a pair of those rascals.
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Re: 39 bodies found in lorry container in Essex

Post by thatdberight » Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:13 pm

Nonayforever wrote: Trafficking is for more serious as it's against the persons wish.
As far as I can see, the driver has been charged with trafficking - the CPS' own definition of which says it must be for exploitation and that is defined as, "Exploitation shall include, at a minimum, the exploitation of the prostitution of others or other forms of sexual exploitation, forced labour or services, slavery or practices similar to slavery, servitude or removal of organs."

I'm sure it'll all play out in the end but certainly that doesn't seem to be the story being told in the media to the extent we can take that at face value.

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