Fixed penalty notice for littering

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Fenwick
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Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Fenwick » Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:01 pm

I've been given one of these for alledgedly dropping a cigarette butt on the pavement. I was smoking but put the butt in a bin 20 yards before the enforcement people leapt out of the bushes. I even went back to the bin and fished it out to show them !

Has anyone had experience of challanging this sort of thing, because i will go to prison before paying a penny !

Burnley1989
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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Burnley1989 » Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:06 pm

You’ll probably not win unfortunately

dpinsussex
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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by dpinsussex » Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:10 pm

Smoking is becoming a really expensive habit if you get fined as well :)

Fenwick
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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Fenwick » Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:18 pm

150 quid, falling to 80 if paid within 10 days. Wouldnt mind if i'd actually done it! Mind you, those body cams the enforcement people wear are a good deterrent. From a well deserved lamping, the lying swines !

claretonthecoast1882
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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:24 pm

Won't the footage of you getting it out the bin be on his cam ?
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ClaretAndJew
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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by ClaretAndJew » Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:31 pm

They don't film the offence they only use the cameras for confrontations for protection, apparently.

My Uncle received one for "dropping a sandwich packet" which was in fact a paper bag from the chemist which he didn't realise he had even dropped after fishing his keys out of his pocket.

Couldn't do anything about it. It's weird.

It's good that they have people to enforce and try and counter littering but the people that do it usually exhibit bullying behaviour akin to those big fat lads on "Can't Pay We'll Take It Away"

claretnproud
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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by claretnproud » Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:36 pm

Fenwick wrote:I've been given one of these for alledgedly dropping a cigarette butt on the pavement. I was smoking but put the butt in a bin 20 yards before the enforcement people leapt out of the bushes. I even went back to the bin and fished it out to show them !

Has anyone had experience of challanging this sort of thing, because i will go to prison before paying a penny !
I wouldnt pay a single penny if I hadnt consciously littered. Btw my girlfriend threw something out of her car window and got the 80 quid fine. She whinged at me but I told her she was a litter lout so tough turkey.
Last edited by claretnproud on Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by conyoviejo » Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:36 pm

There has been a couple of these Arseholes going round Colne bullying peopie and fining them for exactly the same thing.. Making things up about people dropping litter when they haven't..Time the council did something about them,but they won't as they have increased their coffers by almost a million pounds this year with their bullying tactics..
Last edited by conyoviejo on Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

claretnproud
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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by claretnproud » Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:39 pm

conyoviejo wrote:There has been a couple of these Arseholes going round Colne bullying peopie and fining them for exactly the same thing.. Making things up about people dropping litter when they haven't..Time the council did doe thing about them,but they won't as they have increased their coffers by almost a million pounds this year with their bullying tactics..
my girlfriends offence was in Colne but she deserved it. However sooner or later one of these litter police lot will get into some fisticuffs up colne. Not recommended.

conyoviejo
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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by conyoviejo » Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:41 pm

claretnproud wrote:my girlfriends offence was in Colne but she deserved it. However sooner or later one of these litter police lot will get into some fisticuffs up colne. Not recommended.
Some people do deserve it and rightly so.. These guys are real bullies though.. Time somebody sorted them out ..

claretdj
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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by claretdj » Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:57 pm

I spotted the 2 asian guys giving the fines out now numerous times around colne & I have come to the conclusion that it's only white people who litter.. :lol:
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tim_noone
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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by tim_noone » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:04 pm

conyoviejo wrote:Some people do deserve it and rightly so.. These guys are real bullies though.. Time somebody sorted them out ..
:lol: :lol: stop standing outside the craic...scruffy looking tw&ts Lovely garden area provided at the back to smoke in. :D

edison
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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by edison » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:14 pm

I wonder about this. If you didn't litter, how can they force you to pay a fine if they can't prove you did? Can you not just walk away from them? They don't have the power of arrest do they?

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by duncandisorderly » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:16 pm

edison wrote:I wonder about this. If you didn't litter, how can they force you to pay a fine if they can't prove you did? Can you not just walk away from them? They don't have the power of arrest do they?

Exactly that, just walk away. You don't have to tell them your name or address or anything.

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by ClaretAndJew » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:16 pm

If you don't give your name then there's not much they can do.

Is littering a criminal offence or a civil one?

edison
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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by edison » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:17 pm

Civil I'd imagine

(edit) google tells me it is criminal though

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by tim_noone » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:19 pm

duncandisorderly wrote:Exactly that, just walk away. You don't have to tell them your name or address or anything.
Better still don't throw your sh!t on the streets.
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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by ClaretAndJew » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:20 pm

edison wrote:Civil I'd imagine

(edit) google tells me it is criminal though
It's a strange way to deal with a criminal offence then isn't it?

If there's no police about though what are they gonna do? Fine you to death?

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by edison » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:20 pm

I recall reading a story about a woman who was given a notice for picking up the wrong dog ****
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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by ClaretAndJew » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:22 pm

edison wrote:I recall reading a story about a woman who was given a notice for picking up the wrong dog ****
There's people on the Greenway walking path in Padiham that wander around with binoculars trying to spot people not picking up their dog ****.

It's a good thing to do but it's just comical that it's all so serious like they are spying on a drug lord or something.

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by duncandisorderly » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:22 pm

tim_noone wrote:Better still don't throw your sh!t on the streets.

The OP didn't.

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Barry_Chuckle » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:28 pm

Heard about a similar thing going on in Keighley, not real enforcement officers and scamming folk into paying fines which are not enforceable by law.
Question the legitimacy of it Fenwick


Oh, and stop smoking, it's a filthy habit which is dangerous to your health, and your pocket. ;)
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tim_noone
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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by tim_noone » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:31 pm

duncandisorderly wrote:The OP didn't.
Don't believe everything you read on msg board.
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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by spadesclaret » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:34 pm

tim_noone wrote:Don't believe everything you read on msg board.
That is a dreadful slur on the OP's good name. If it was intended as a joke there should have been a smiley.
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Firthy
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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Firthy » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:38 pm

Personally I wouldn't pay a penny. Let them take you to court, they have to prove their case and if they don't have any evidence then the case will be thrown out but I doubt it will go that far.
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tim_noone
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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by tim_noone » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:38 pm

spadesclaret wrote:That is a dreadful slur on the OP's good name. If it was intended as a joke there should have been a smiley.
:D :D :D sorry....

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by spadesclaret » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:40 pm

tim_noone wrote::D :D :D sorry....
So you should be :D
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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by NottsClaret » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:43 pm

I'm quite the bleeding heart liberal when it comes to the justice system but I'd happily bring back hanging for littering.

OK, we'll get a bit of collateral damage along the way with people like the OP, but it's a price worth paying I reckon.
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Fenwick
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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Fenwick » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:47 pm

I'm being oppressed ! And yes it is a filthy habit. But it's a crime I didn't commit. I'm going to call The A Team. If I can find them....

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Burnley Ace » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:48 pm

edison wrote:I wonder about this. If you didn't litter, how can they force you to pay a fine if they can't prove you did? Can you not just walk away from them? They don't have the power of arrest do they?
It’s another offence if you don’t provide your details and you also go to Court rather than an FPN

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Burnley Ace » Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:01 pm

Firthy wrote:Personally I wouldn't pay a penny. Let them take you to court, they have to prove their case and if they don't have any evidence then the case will be thrown out but I doubt it will go that far.
They do have evidence ie the officer giving evidence about what he saw. The video is of the conversation so it’s your opportunity to get your defence in straight away

1. “I’m sorry I think you are genuinely mistaken in what you saw as I put it in the bin/wasn’t smoking/didn’t drop anything.”
2. Don’t accuse them of being liars as then character is called into question which may disadvantage many of the posters on here.
3. Whilst on camera ask them to confirm what the litter was and to take you straight to it.
4. Ask them to confirm where they were when they saw you.
5. Confirm how many officers are present and you expect statements from all of them
6. Give them your details otherwise when the video is played in Court you just look like a complete dickhead.
6. DO NOT IGNORE THE SUMMONS!! otherwise it will be proved in your absence and you will get about £350 in total
7. If it does go to trial and that really is dependent where you are Pendle and Burnley do, Blackburn don’t seem to bother, the Prosecutor has to prove beyond reasonable doubt and the video impression can make a big difference
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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by LeadBelly » Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:12 pm

I dislike litter louts- it's a very antisocial activity and down to rank laziness and don't- give-a-toss-for-anybody-else attitude. I'm generally supportive of Councils fining miscreants and wish there was such in the town where I live, however, it's a bit worrying if the wardens are abusing their positions.

I wonder if they have targets to hit/get commission on what they collect? I hope not because that just encourages them misuse their powers.
Given the amount of discarded cans, sandwich packs, tab-ends, takeaway cartons, shop wrappers etc lying around town, it cant be that difficult to collar real miscreants surely?

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Hipper » Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:16 pm

I always understood that if you dropped something you had to be given the opportunity to pick it up. Is that no longer the case?

There was a TV programme about 'environmental enforcement agents' a while back, perhaps this one:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39882434" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Pi6C1FVuhY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Dark Cloud
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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Dark Cloud » Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:20 pm

I agree that littering (like fly tipping and dog fouling) is a real scourge and SHOULD be enforced and punished, but from what people say I suspect these enforcers are on a % of the fines they dish out (like parking wardens?) and so are quite happy to "bend" the truth of what really occurred and slap gullible people with a fine. It probably needs a whole bunch of quite obviously innocent and indignant people to complain directly to the council, as if there's a lot of similar complaints they would surely think all's not right.

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by clarethomer » Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:26 pm

Hipper wrote:I always understood that if you dropped something you had to be given the opportunity to pick it up. Is that no longer the case?

There was a TV programme about 'environmental enforcement agents' a while back, perhaps this one:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39882434" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Pi6C1FVuhY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
yep
71825232_10156415425951646_3279737688374116352_n.jpg
71825232_10156415425951646_3279737688374116352_n.jpg (85.25 KiB) Viewed 3082 times
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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by ClaretAndJew » Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:27 pm

clarethomer wrote:yep
71825232_10156415425951646_3279737688374116352_n.jpg
This did not happen with my Uncle. They just showed up at his door and issued him with the notice, even though he offered to pick it up.

Taffy on the wing
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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Taffy on the wing » Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:27 pm

edison wrote:I recall reading a story about a woman who was given a notice for picking up the wrong dog ****
Daily Mail, Express or Sun?
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clarethomer
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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by clarethomer » Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:36 pm

ClaretAndJew wrote:This did not happen with my Uncle. They just showed up at his door and issued him with the notice, even though he offered to pick it up.
lots of complaints on social media - this may prove useful

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... dance1.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

page 11 refers to the pic i posted
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thelaughingclaret
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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by thelaughingclaret » Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:48 pm

Go to court and stand your ground. If they don’t have evidence what can they do? Do t pay the fine and be a push over. If this ever happens to me I’ll fight it tooth and nail and if they eventually send me to prison so be it.
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Leisure
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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Leisure » Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:41 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:It’s another offence if you don’t provide your details and you also go to Court rather than an FPN
But if you refuse to provide them with your details how can they persue it?

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Leisure » Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:45 pm

Burnley Ace wrote: 6. Give them your details otherwise when the video is played in Court you just look like a complete dickhead.
Same question as my previous post. But if your refuse to give your details what can they do about that and how will they know who you are?

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Leisure » Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:47 pm

ClaretAndJew wrote:This did not happen with my Uncle. They just showed up at his door and issued him with the notice, even though he offered to pick it up.
Had he given them his name and address?

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by ClaretAndJew » Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:51 pm

Leisure wrote:Had he given them his name and address?
They followed him to his house and knocked on the door.

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Leisure » Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:52 pm

Just to clarify bearing in mind my 3 previous posts, I'm not on a crusade here, just genuinely would like to know.

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by conyoviejo » Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:03 pm

If approached all you need to do us a Forest Gump , just keep on walking until they get fed up of following you.. I would have headed for Pendle hill.lol
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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Clarets4me » Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:43 pm

spadesclaret wrote:That is a dreadful slur on the OP's good name. If it was intended as a joke there should have been a smiley.
He would have done, but the traditional smiley emoji is not an accurate representation of timnoone's current smile, sadly ..... :(

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Billy Balfour » Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:15 pm

It is also a criminal offence for a person to refuse to provide their name and address, or to give false or inaccurate information, to an enforcement officer where it is proposed to give that person a fixed penalty notice (Section 88(8B) EPA 1990).

Looks like you do have to provide your name and address. These litter wardens are council enforcement officers. I'm all in favour of them if they are used correctly and fine litter louts and those who don't clean up after their dogs.

Anything that makes our towns and parks much cleaner gets my full support. People who feel they have been unfairly targeted, like those who accidentally drop something while reaching into a pocket or drop a small piece of food while eating, can use the appeals procedure - this is what it's there for.

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by Blackrod » Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:16 pm

It’s s bit extreme for a cig butt. Littering does need punishing though. I once saw a man throw a whole bin liner of rubbish out of a convertible on the M66. Certain sections of society with little respect for their neighbourhood are more prone to littering. There’s a beauty spot near me and it’s always the same types dropping litter or chucking it out of car windows when they are parked up with a bin nearby. It’s often the same types that have no respect for other road users and accelerate in town centres.

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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by conyoviejo » Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:34 pm

Billy Balfour wrote:It is also a criminal offence for a person to refuse to provide their name and address, or to give false or inaccurate information, to an enforcement officer where it is proposed to give that person a fixed penalty notice (Section 88(8B) EPA 1990).

Looks like you do have to provide your name and address. These litter wardens are council enforcement officers. I'm all in favour of them if they are used correctly and fine litter louts and those who don't clean up after their dogs.

Anything that makes our towns and parks much cleaner gets my full support. People who feel they have been unfairly targeted, like those who accidentally drop something while reaching into a pocket or drop a small piece of food while eating, can use the appeals procedure - this is what it's there for.
Agree,but these guys in Colne are watching people who accidentally drop something then still fining them. Surely if they have watched them,they know it was accidental ,but still harass them..

IanMcL
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Re: Fixed penalty notice for littering

Post by IanMcL » Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:49 pm

Something for us all to bear in mind....

The butt stops with you!

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