The folly of dialectics and perspectivism

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Pstotto
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The folly of dialectics and perspectivism

Post by Pstotto » Mon Oct 28, 2019 2:56 pm

The Folly of Perspectivism.jpg
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Nietzsche was an imbecile, but a clever one. He built a nihilist philosophy around perspectivism, arguing that because one could not see the world from anything other than a partial viewpoint, therefore truth does not exist.

I'm beginning to think that these elites sprouting opinion for the plebs to consume, are spinning a lie as a red herring to keep folk guessing whilst they are shafted by the elite.

Wittgenstein's Tractatus, is the ultimate text of gobbledygook for fools to enthuse and be in thrall to, via his Mobius loop aphorisms.

The same with dialectics around which our Parliament is arranged and for the same purpose.

According to dialectics and thesis/antithesis = synthesis, then what the two fools in the illustration are looking at, is 7 1/2. That would be their agreement, the compromise so to speak.

The government are now putting forward '7 1/2' on the table as the Brexit deal and the public (if ithere is a second referendum,) would be asked on whether to vote for 7 1/2 or not (as the common agreement), thus shafting the populace and attempting to pull the wool over their eyes for one more time.

The idea is that you can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time.

The extensions of that, is that now with the Internet they can fool all of the people some of the time...all of the time.
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houseboy
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Re: The folly of dialectics and perspectivism

Post by houseboy » Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:38 pm

Nietzsche was also mad. But he did have a point because we can only see the world from our own perspective so therefore yes, he was right, we don't get the whole picture therefore is there really such a thing as absolute truth?
Wittgenstein was fairly representative of most philosophers of his time in that they all wrote in such a way as to make any understanding of what they said nigh on impossible to the layman (and many other philosophers). Decartes and Kant also come to mind.
As for politicians - the whole fiasco with Brexit (for example) has made something that should have been relatively simple something that is now deemed to be very complex. But that is what politicians have always done, turn the simple into something more than it is to justify their existence. One of the difficulties politicians have is convincing people that they are professionals when they are all actually amateurs.
They are, as I think you were saying, all masters of double speak.
I think the saying these days should be 'you can fool MOST of the people MOST of the time, especially with the help of Google'.

Pstotto
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Re: The folly of dialectics and perspectivism

Post by Pstotto » Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:03 pm

I can only presume you're Catweazel, Houseboy and still stuck in the Middle Ages.

No.1. The a priori fact is that truth is not anthropocentric, so Nietzshe and you are both wrong.

Wittgenstein was part of the elite, like I said, I think the Tractatus is a red herring, an elaborate hoax. Otherwise he must have been stupid, the content is contradictory to say the least.

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Re: The folly of dialectics and perspectivism

Post by claretnproud » Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:15 pm

The var refs would see it a different way for sure.
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Re: The folly of dialectics and perspectivism

Post by tim_noone » Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:19 pm

One of the most used quotes these Days. "What doesn't Kill you makes you stronger"Frederich Nietzsche.

Pstotto
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Re: The folly of dialectics and perspectivism

Post by Pstotto » Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:21 pm

Hawk-eye is believed to be the objective truth, both in football and tennis, ah yes look at the screen and the digital analysis. I'll leave it there... :-)

When is a replay a replay, hmm???? Even with so-called 'live' football there's a one second delay on the TV and with quantum computing... :-)

Hubble bubble toil and trouble, stir gently...

Pstotto
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Re: The folly of dialectics and perspectivism

Post by Pstotto » Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:25 pm

... And be wise after the event that never comes around again, hey Tim?

Notice how England are always preparing for the next world cup with an up and coming new generation of stars.

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Re: The folly of dialectics and perspectivism

Post by tim_noone » Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:30 pm

To Late when your Dead.... Or Maybe not. :D

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Re: The folly of dialectics and perspectivism

Post by tim_noone » Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:38 pm

Pstotto wrote:
The Folly of Perspectivism.jpg
Nietzsche was an imbecile, but a clever one. He built a nihilist philosophy around perspectivism, arguing that because one could not see the world from anything other than a partial viewpoint, therefore truth does not exist.

I'm beginning to think that these elites sprouting opinion for the plebs to consume, are spinning a lie as a red herring to keep folk guessing whilst they are shafted by the elite.

Wittgenstein's Tractatus, is the ultimate text of gobbledygook for fools to enthuse and be in thrall to, via his Mobius loop aphorisms.

The same with dialectics around which our Parliament is arranged and for the same purpose.

According to dialectics and thesis/antithesis = synthesis, then what the two fools in the illustration are looking at, is 7 1/2. That would be their agreement, the compromise so to speak.

The government are now putting forward '7 1/2' on the table as the Brexit deal and the public (if ithere is a second referendum,) would be asked on whether to vote for 7 1/2 or not (as the common agreement), thus shafting the populace and attempting to pull the wool over their eyes for one more time.

The idea is that you can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time.

The extensions of that, is that now with the Internet they can fool all of the people some of the time...all of the time.
You missed a 4 out by the way :?

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Re: The folly of dialectics and perspectivism

Post by Pstotto » Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:47 pm

I know you think I'm perfect but even I sometimes make mistakes...
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Re: The folly of dialectics and perspectivism

Post by Rowls » Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:47 pm

Thread title of the Year.

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Re: The folly of dialectics and perspectivism

Post by ClaretLoup » Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:37 pm

I think Jim Hendrix had the solution to this problem.

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Re: The folly of dialectics and perspectivism

Post by HieronymousBoschHobs » Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:48 am

Pstotto wrote:
The Folly of Perspectivism.jpg
Nietzsche was an imbecile, but a clever one. He built a nihilist philosophy around perspectivism, arguing that because one could not see the world from anything other than a partial viewpoint, therefore truth does not exist.

I'm beginning to think that these elites sprouting opinion for the plebs to consume, are spinning a lie as a red herring to keep folk guessing whilst they are shafted by the elite.

Wittgenstein's Tractatus, is the ultimate text of gobbledygook for fools to enthuse and be in thrall to, via his Mobius loop aphorisms.

The same with dialectics around which our Parliament is arranged and for the same purpose.

According to dialectics and thesis/antithesis = synthesis, then what the two fools in the illustration are looking at, is 7 1/2. That would be their agreement, the compromise so to speak.

The government are now putting forward '7 1/2' on the table as the Brexit deal and the public (if ithere is a second referendum,) would be asked on whether to vote for 7 1/2 or not (as the common agreement), thus shafting the populace and attempting to pull the wool over their eyes for one more time.

The idea is that you can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time.

The extensions of that, is that now with the Internet they can fool all of the people some of the time...all of the time.
So the resolution to their problem would not be 7 1/2. The thesis is followed by its negation, the antithesis, and this results in a synthesis where the apparent contradiction is smoothed out. This is a process, not a one time event. This is how I think Socrates, who pioneered the method, would have handled it:

Mr. A: 'I see six'
Ms. B: 'I do not see six'
Mr. A: 'One of us sees sixs but the other does not, how can this be true?'
Ms. B: 'Because I see nine'
Mr. A:'I do not see nine'
Ms. B: 'Then one of us sees nine and the other does not, and one of us sees six and the other does not, how can this be true?'
Mr. A:'This can only be true if the number we are looking at it is both six and nine'

The discussion would then proceed, in this manner, to the truth of the matter: that each was looking at the same number, but from a different perspective. Nietzsche's claim would, perhaps, be that, in reality, it is impossible for us ever to get past our own perspective of the number: if you think it's a six, you can't conceive that it's a nine; if you think it's a nine vice versa. Such a view precludes any objectivity - the 'view from nowhere' which tells us how things really are.

As for Wittgenstein: at least in his early period, I do not think he and Nietzsche would be comfortable bedfellows. The Tractatus is very much on the side of there being objective truths, but Wittgenstein believed that, unlike the sciences, speculative philosophy is incapable of finding them. Instead philosophical problems arise from a poor logical analysis of natural language. Nietzsche, on the other hand, thought that even the value we place in the tools of reason themselves - logic, mathematics - is determined by our particular perspective and so even they cannot guarantee we have arrived at the 'correct' answer.

None of this has anything to do with Brexit mind.

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Re: The folly of dialectics and perspectivism

Post by Buxtonclaret » Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:10 am

They have a 'Veiw from Nowhere' at Goodison Park.
Or is that a Veiw TO Nowhere........
Can never remember.
:P

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Re: The folly of dialectics and perspectivism

Post by tim_noone » Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:37 am

HieronymousBoschHobs wrote:So the resolution to their problem would not be 7 1/2. The thesis is followed by its negation, the antithesis, and this results in a synthesis where the apparent contradiction is smoothed out. This is a process, not a one time event. This is how I think Socrates, who pioneered the method, would have handled it:

Mr. A: 'I see six'
Ms. B: 'I do not see six'
Mr. A: 'One of us sees sixs but the other does not, how can this be true?'
Ms. B: 'Because I see nine'
Mr. A:'I do not see nine'
Ms. B: 'Then one of us sees nine and the other does not, and one of us sees six and the other does not, how can this be true?'
Mr. A:'This can only be true if the number we are looking at it is both six and nine'

The discussion would then proceed, in this manner, to the truth of the matter: that each was looking at the same number, but from a different perspective. Nietzsche's claim would, perhaps, be that, in reality, it is impossible for us ever to get past our own perspective of the number: if you think it's a six, you can't conceive that it's a nine; if you think it's a nine vice versa. Such a view precludes any objectivity - the 'view from nowhere' which tells us how things really are.

As for Wittgenstein: at least in his early period, I do not think he and Nietzsche would be comfortable bedfellows. The Tractatus is very much on the side of there being objective truths, but Wittgenstein believed that, unlike the sciences, speculative philosophy is incapable of finding them. Instead philosophical problems arise from a poor logical analysis of natural language. Nietzsche, on the other hand, thought that even the value we place in the tools of reason themselves - logic, mathematics - is determined by our particular perspective and so even they cannot guarantee we have arrived at the 'correct' answer.

None of this has anything to do with Brexit mind.
True story...I was temporary out of work and in receipt of dole money weekly £4.50 ish you got paid cash at Finley Gate... The teller must have looked at the numbers only and Added another £5 doubled my money.so she saw a 9 as opposed to a 4 happy days.

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Re: The folly of dialectics and perspectivism

Post by Down_Rover » Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:54 am

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view ... &eim=1,2,6" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think they are talking about this

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Re: The folly of dialectics and perspectivism

Post by RMutt » Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:33 am

Or, should it be, the folly of philosophy?
https://qz.com/1313616/whats-the-point- ... -isnt-one/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: The folly of dialectics and perspectivism

Post by Pstotto » Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:31 am

Bosch, you're suggesting my illustration presents dialectics in full then, both the thesis, antithesis and synthesis.

I disagree with you, that the compromise solution of dialectics is objective agreement on each others supposed subjective position, that's a fantasy.

In reality our Parliament are putting forward the equivalent of saying that the number on the floor is 7 1/2 and that the People's Vote would center on whether folks should vote for 7 1/2 or not.

Down Rover, the solution to the Duck/Rabbit conundrum is the transcendental pictorial context of perspective where all the 2D data is form representative:
Transcendental architectonic Solution.jpg
Transcendental architectonic Solution.jpg (157.01 KiB) Viewed 725 times
Regarding the value of philosophy, I think epistemology is more useful. I was in the pub at the end of the night and the doorman came over and said it's time to go, do you want to leave by the window or the door? I said I'll choose the door and he said "Smart move"...

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Re: The folly of dialectics and perspectivism

Post by RMutt » Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:12 pm

I would imagine that brexit would provide a very good case study subject for someone interested in epistemology.

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