This Forum is the main messageboard to discuss all things Claret and Blue and beyond
-
Lancasterclaret
- Posts: 23343
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
- Been Liked: 8058 times
- Has Liked: 4714 times
- Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing
Post
by Lancasterclaret » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:30 pm
gandhisflipflop wrote:That's where you're wrong. It's just my opinion based on my life experience, observations and attitudes to a different point of view. I've seen similar in a few papers recently too.
So again, its your opinion based on what you want to believe.
You do that a lot.
-
FCBurnley
- Posts: 9852
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:56 pm
- Been Liked: 2001 times
- Has Liked: 1148 times
Post
by FCBurnley » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:31 pm
Wonder if IT will have the balls to tell us who he will be giving his precious vote to ?
-
Imploding Turtle
- Posts: 19799
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:12 am
- Been Liked: 5483 times
- Has Liked: 2540 times
- Location: Burnley, Lancs
Post
by Imploding Turtle » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:32 pm
Jakubclaret wrote:They do but in a more subtle way, a wiser way, you tend to vote usually the same as your parents so the next generation punish it's just not as noticeable that's all.
Care to elaborate on this "more subtle, wiser way"?
-
ClaretAndJew
- Posts: 8023
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:08 am
- Been Liked: 2819 times
- Has Liked: 503 times
- Location: Earth
Post
by ClaretAndJew » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:32 pm
Tinnies 2020
-
Imploding Turtle
- Posts: 19799
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:12 am
- Been Liked: 5483 times
- Has Liked: 2540 times
- Location: Burnley, Lancs
Post
by Imploding Turtle » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:32 pm
FCBurnley wrote:Wonder if IT will have the balls to tell us who he will be giving his precious vote to ?
Why wouldn't I?
Unlike you, i've no reason to be ashamed of who i vote for.
-
FCBurnley
- Posts: 9852
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:56 pm
- Been Liked: 2001 times
- Has Liked: 1148 times
Post
by FCBurnley » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:33 pm
So who will you all be voting for
-
FCBurnley
- Posts: 9852
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:56 pm
- Been Liked: 2001 times
- Has Liked: 1148 times
Post
by FCBurnley » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:35 pm
Imploding Turtle wrote:Why wouldn't I?
Unlike you, i've no reason to be ashamed of who i vote for.
Tell us then
-
dsr
- Posts: 15238
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
- Been Liked: 4578 times
- Has Liked: 2269 times
Post
by dsr » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:35 pm
Spijed wrote:Robert Peston
✔
@Peston
Government is now threatening to pull the general-election bill if Labour insists on amendment to enfranchise 3.4m EU citizens. It all gets crazier
Why on earth would it be sensible to enfranchise 3.4m foreigners? I don't think any EU country allows foreign visitors to vote in general elections. Why would they?
Anyway, major constitutional changes are voted on after long and involved discussion. When was this first brought up? Yesterday? No-one is going to make major constitutional decisions like this purely on the basis of thinking they might win more votes. They can't be so corrupt - can they?
-
martin_p
- Posts: 10379
- Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
- Been Liked: 3767 times
- Has Liked: 696 times
Post
by martin_p » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:37 pm
dsr wrote:Why on earth would it be sensible to enfranchise 3.4m foreigners? I don't think any EU country allows foreign visitors to vote in general elections. Why would they?
But we allow them to vote in local elections, what’s the difference?
-
Jakubclaret
- Posts: 9473
- Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:47 pm
- Been Liked: 1185 times
- Has Liked: 779 times
Post
by Jakubclaret » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:37 pm
Imploding Turtle wrote:Care to elaborate on this "more subtle, wiser way"?
You only have to look at Arthur scargill what happened there, the children of the miners will never really like a Conservative government, it led to the collapse of Edward heaths government although it's unlikely the children played a part in that particular event.
-
Imploding Turtle
- Posts: 19799
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:12 am
- Been Liked: 5483 times
- Has Liked: 2540 times
- Location: Burnley, Lancs
Post
by Imploding Turtle » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:37 pm
FCBurnley wrote:Tell us then
I don't know yet.
-
gandhisflipflop
- Posts: 5543
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:05 pm
- Been Liked: 2340 times
- Has Liked: 1405 times
- Location: Costa del Padihamos beach.
Post
by gandhisflipflop » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:37 pm
Lancasterclaret wrote:So again, its your opinion based on what you want to believe.
You do that a lot.
If you say so LC.
-
dsr
- Posts: 15238
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
- Been Liked: 4578 times
- Has Liked: 2269 times
Post
by dsr » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:39 pm
martin_p wrote:But we allow them to vote in local elections, what’s the difference?
At risk of stating the obvious, local elections are local. Local government is for the benefit of people who live there. National government is for the benefit of people who belong there.
-
TheFamilyCat
- Posts: 10915
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:56 pm
- Been Liked: 5560 times
- Has Liked: 208 times
Post
by TheFamilyCat » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:40 pm
dsr wrote:At risk of stating the obvious, local elections are local. Local government is for the benefit of people who live there. National government is for the benefit of people who belong there.
Send the buggers back
PS that argument makes no sense whatsoever
Last edited by
TheFamilyCat on Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
These 2 users liked this post: martin_p Lord Beamish
-
FCBurnley
- Posts: 9852
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:56 pm
- Been Liked: 2001 times
- Has Liked: 1148 times
Post
by FCBurnley » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:41 pm
Imploding Turtle wrote:I don't know yet.
Haha. Gutless as usual. No doubt you will tell us after the election
or maybe not
-
Lancasterclaret
- Posts: 23343
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
- Been Liked: 8058 times
- Has Liked: 4714 times
- Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing
Post
by Lancasterclaret » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:41 pm
gandhisflipflop wrote:If you say so LC.
No bother if you don't agree, but I doubt University has changed that much since I went.*
*I do concede that my degree was based more on critical analysis of stuff than most but still.
-
Chip Harrison
- Posts: 216
- Joined: Mon May 15, 2017 11:16 am
- Been Liked: 126 times
- Has Liked: 328 times
Post
by Chip Harrison » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:41 pm
Jakubclaret wrote:You only have to look at Arthur scargill what happened there, the children of the miners will never really like a Conservative government, it led to the collapse of Edward heaths government although it's unlikely the children played a part in that particular event.
Edward Heath's government? Rewriting history are we?
-
Dyched
- Posts: 5950
- Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:34 am
- Been Liked: 1923 times
- Has Liked: 446 times
Post
by Dyched » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:43 pm
FCBurnley wrote:So who will you all be voting for
Ziggy Stardust
-
martin_p
- Posts: 10379
- Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
- Been Liked: 3767 times
- Has Liked: 696 times
Post
by martin_p » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:43 pm
dsr wrote:At risk of stating the obvious, local elections are local. Local government is for the benefit of people who live there. National government is for the benefit of people who belong there.
So national policies only apply to those who belong here? Don’t be ridiculous! National government is also for the benefit of the people who live here.
-
Croydon Claret
- Posts: 4133
- Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:03 pm
- Been Liked: 1159 times
- Has Liked: 789 times
Post
by Croydon Claret » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:43 pm
Bit of a dilemma as the local MP is a Tory but he's damn good. Always keeping in touch in between elections in the form of a regular newsletter.
Only last week we all received a letter from him canvassing for our opinions re local planning problems.
I definitely won't vote for Labour now, not since Blair and not until they replace Corbyn, so I'm not sure. Probably vote Tory because good MPs are hard to find.
-
Jakubclaret
- Posts: 9473
- Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:47 pm
- Been Liked: 1185 times
- Has Liked: 779 times
Post
by Jakubclaret » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:44 pm
Chip Harrison wrote:Edward Heath's government? Rewriting history are we?
Children are very impressionable individuals & more often that not take after the parents.
-
martin_p
- Posts: 10379
- Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
- Been Liked: 3767 times
- Has Liked: 696 times
Post
by martin_p » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:45 pm
FCBurnley wrote:Haha. Gutless as usual. No doubt you will tell us after the election
or maybe not
Who are you voting for?
And why isn’t it reasonable to not have decided yet. If you want to remain in the EU, depending on the numbers in your constituency, you may have to be thinking about a tactical vote.
-
LoveCurryPies
- Posts: 4294
- Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:00 am
- Been Liked: 1600 times
- Has Liked: 679 times
Post
by LoveCurryPies » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:45 pm
I will be honest and say I am a bit of a floating voter and tend to change on the important policies and personalities of the time.
I’m also a Remainer and think I will probably vote for one of the Remain parties.
That won’t be a vote for Labour...because they have been more interested in an election than a clear view on Brexit.
So my question is, will you be voting for a party that might not be your normal choice?
-
aggi
- Posts: 8847
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:31 am
- Been Liked: 2122 times
Post
by aggi » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:45 pm
dsr wrote:At risk of stating the obvious, local elections are local. Local government is for the benefit of people who live there. National government is for the benefit of people who belong there.
Ha, I suspect this was just phrased badly but the also the first thing that sprung to mind
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3w5WOb8jPLQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
These 2 users liked this post: longsidepies Lord Beamish
-
Lancasterclaret
- Posts: 23343
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
- Been Liked: 8058 times
- Has Liked: 4714 times
- Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing
Post
by Lancasterclaret » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:46 pm
dsr wrote:At risk of stating the obvious, local elections are local. Local government is for the benefit of people who live there. National government is for the benefit of people who belong there.
Bloody hell
Have you just tweeted from the Nuremberg rally?
-
TheFamilyCat
- Posts: 10915
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:56 pm
- Been Liked: 5560 times
- Has Liked: 208 times
Post
by TheFamilyCat » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:46 pm
Jakubclaret wrote:Children are very impressionable individuals & more often that not take after the parents.
Yeah, but Edward Heath?
-
ŽižkovClaret
- Posts: 7070
- Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:50 pm
- Been Liked: 2176 times
- Has Liked: 3110 times
- Location: Praha
-
Contact:
Post
by ŽižkovClaret » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:47 pm
My vote is in Burnley, so i'll vote Labour.
If it was elsewhere i'd vote for whoever (Lab/ reluctantly Lib Dem) had the best chance of defeating the Tories
-
Jakubclaret
- Posts: 9473
- Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:47 pm
- Been Liked: 1185 times
- Has Liked: 779 times
Post
by Jakubclaret » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:50 pm
TheFamilyCat wrote:Yeah, but Edward Heath?
I'm too busy looking out of window wondering if it's going to rain to create a considered constructive response.
-
mdd2
- Posts: 6027
- Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:47 pm
- Been Liked: 1666 times
- Has Liked: 701 times
Post
by mdd2 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:52 pm
I cannot see how any one party will get a majority. SNP will sweep up the Scottish Tory seats given the Brexit stance of the Tory party and so to stand still they will have to gain 13 seats in England. They are unlikely to unseat sitting Lib Dem MPs and will likely lose seats in the South West to the remainers. And then there is the Brexit party who will split the leave vote of Brexiteers in the northern Labour seats.
If that anyway comes to pass-another hung parliament seems likely and I guess could be another Labour minority Government propped up by the LIb Dems if Labour support the Lib Dems stance on Europe and cancel article 50. If that happens and Labour cancel article 50 then they will have gone full circle on Brexit
-
dsr
- Posts: 15238
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
- Been Liked: 4578 times
- Has Liked: 2269 times
Post
by dsr » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:53 pm
Lancasterclaret wrote:Bloody hell
Have you just tweeted from the Nuremberg rally?
I know you disapprove of normal civilised behaviour on message boards and are quite happy to throw accusations of Nazism against people you don't like. It's intolerant, arrogant, rude, and pretty vile, frankly. But that's just you.
But you might bear in mind that no country in the world (unless you know different) allows foreigners to vote in general elections. General elections are for citizens of that country, only. Are you saying that every country in the world is fascist?
These 3 users liked this post: Rowls AndyClaret Damo
-
Rowls
- Posts: 13267
- Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:00 pm
- Been Liked: 5102 times
- Has Liked: 5173 times
- Location: Montpellier, France
Post
by Rowls » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:55 pm
Lancasterclaret wrote:Bloody hell
Have you just tweeted from the Nuremberg rally?
You went Hitler on page 2 Lancs.
Should've saved it for later.
This user liked this post: Damo
-
AndyClaret
- Posts: 1349
- Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:08 pm
- Been Liked: 217 times
- Has Liked: 543 times
Post
by AndyClaret » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:55 pm
Lancasterclaret wrote:Bloody hell
Have you just tweeted from the Nuremberg rally?
No EU country allows EU nationals to vote in general elections.
-
Lancasterclaret
- Posts: 23343
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
- Been Liked: 8058 times
- Has Liked: 4714 times
- Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing
Post
by Lancasterclaret » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:58 pm
dsr wrote:I know you disapprove of normal civilised behaviour on message boards and are quite happy to throw accusations of Nazism against people you don't like. It's intolerant, arrogant, rude, and pretty vile, frankly. But that's just you.
But you might bear in mind that no country in the world (unless you know different) allows foreigners to vote in general elections. General elections are for citizens of that country, only. Are you saying that every country in the world is fascist?
Why are you picking on me?
Loads of people picked you up on this!
And if you actually gave a stuff about your first line, you'd call out a lot of your fellow Brexit backers.
But you won't because everything I think and say about you in 100% spot on.
-
Lancasterclaret
- Posts: 23343
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
- Been Liked: 8058 times
- Has Liked: 4714 times
- Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing
Post
by Lancasterclaret » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:59 pm
Rowls wrote:You went Hitler on page 2 Lancs.
Should've saved it for later.
Nah, always go in early with the Nazi references when the resident right wingers forget they are supposed to be reasonable.
-
Rowls
- Posts: 13267
- Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:00 pm
- Been Liked: 5102 times
- Has Liked: 5173 times
- Location: Montpellier, France
Post
by Rowls » Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:00 pm
Lancasterclaret wrote:Why are you picking on me?
"picking on me"
-
TheFamilyCat
- Posts: 10915
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:56 pm
- Been Liked: 5560 times
- Has Liked: 208 times
Post
by TheFamilyCat » Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:00 pm
Jakubclaret wrote:I'm too busy looking out of window wondering if it's going to rain to create a considered constructive response.
Nice callback. Shouldn't be surprised though, you have been comedy gold of late.
-
Rowls
- Posts: 13267
- Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:00 pm
- Been Liked: 5102 times
- Has Liked: 5173 times
- Location: Montpellier, France
Post
by Rowls » Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:00 pm
Lancasterclaret wrote:Nah, always go in early with the Nazi references when the resident right wingers forget they are supposed to be reasonable.
-
Lancasterclaret
- Posts: 23343
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
- Been Liked: 8058 times
- Has Liked: 4714 times
- Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing
Post
by Lancasterclaret » Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:01 pm
AndyClaret wrote:No EU country allows EU nationals to vote in general elections.
And?
Its silly not to allow people who live and work in this country the vote.
Especially over something like this, it directly affects them.
-
dsr
- Posts: 15238
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
- Been Liked: 4578 times
- Has Liked: 2269 times
Post
by dsr » Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:01 pm
Lancasterclaret wrote:Why are you picking on me?
Loads of people picked you up on this!
And if you actually gave a stuff about your first line, you'd call out a lot of your fellow Brexit backers.
But you won't because everything I think and say about you in 100% spot on.
You are the only one who said that my post was what you would expect of a member of the Nazi Party in Germany. That is specific, and as I said earlier, it is vile. And also as I said earlier, that is the sort of person you are.
This user liked this post: Rowls
-
Lancasterclaret
- Posts: 23343
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
- Been Liked: 8058 times
- Has Liked: 4714 times
- Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing
Post
by Lancasterclaret » Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:05 pm
dsr wrote:You are the only one who said that my post was what you would expect of a member of the Nazi Party in Germany. That is specific, and as I said earlier, it is vile. And also as I said earlier, that is the sort of person you are.
I'll somehow survive
You should complain about it, I know you like doing that kind of thing.
-
Imploding Turtle
- Posts: 19799
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:12 am
- Been Liked: 5483 times
- Has Liked: 2540 times
- Location: Burnley, Lancs
Post
by Imploding Turtle » Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:05 pm
FCBurnley wrote:Haha. Gutless as usual. No doubt you will tell us after the election
or maybe not
I literally don't know. Am I supposed to lie or something? Some of us have integrity, a foreign concept to a Trump-loving racist like yourself, i'm sure.
It depends on who the Lib Dems put up, and then it depends on which of either Labour or Lib Dems has the better chance of keeping out the Brextremists.
So to answer your question, for the second time: I. Don't. Know.
-
Rowls
- Posts: 13267
- Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:00 pm
- Been Liked: 5102 times
- Has Liked: 5173 times
- Location: Montpellier, France
Post
by Rowls » Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:07 pm
You might be judge and jury on here Lancaster but it doesn't make you tasteful and it doesn't make you in any way right.
You should curb your insults and your constant Nazi-referencing.
You're like this board's Ken Livingstone.
-
Jakubclaret
- Posts: 9473
- Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:47 pm
- Been Liked: 1185 times
- Has Liked: 779 times
Post
by Jakubclaret » Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:09 pm
TheFamilyCat wrote:Nice callback. Shouldn't be surprised though, you have been comedy gold of late.
Like I've said before I'm willing to engage only if it's in a common sense manner, I don't think I've ever said let's just leave & things will be reyt, I've said things will sort themselves out & there's no need to panic regarding project fear & all the essential items we rely on suddenly drying up. Comedy gold I could say the same, just different perspectives that's all.
-
Lancasterclaret
- Posts: 23343
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
- Been Liked: 8058 times
- Has Liked: 4714 times
- Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing
Post
by Lancasterclaret » Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:09 pm
Rowls wrote:You might be judge and jury on here Lancaster but it doesn't make you tasteful and it doesn't make you in any way right.
You should curb your insults and your constant Nazi-referencing.
You're like this board's Ken Livingstone.
If only the board has some sort of function where you could stop having to listen to me point out just how right wing people like you are eh?
-
Imploding Turtle
- Posts: 19799
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:12 am
- Been Liked: 5483 times
- Has Liked: 2540 times
- Location: Burnley, Lancs
Post
by Imploding Turtle » Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:14 pm
dsr wrote:At risk of stating the obvious, local elections are local. Local government is for the benefit of people who live there. National government is for the benefit of people who belong there.
Holy ****. I missed this
LancasterClaret was right with his comment.
We've definitely got a Nationalist Conservative in you, dsr, haven't we?
-
Imploding Turtle
- Posts: 19799
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:12 am
- Been Liked: 5483 times
- Has Liked: 2540 times
- Location: Burnley, Lancs
Post
by Imploding Turtle » Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:18 pm
dsr wrote:I know you disapprove of normal civilised behaviour on message boards and are quite happy to throw accusations of Nazism against people you don't like. It's intolerant, arrogant, rude, and pretty vile, frankly. But that's just you.
But you might bear in mind that no country in the world (unless you know different) allows foreigners to vote in general elections. General elections are for citizens of that country, only. Are you saying that every country in the world is fascist?
You're the one who claimed that people who don't have the right to vote in our General election don't' belong here. I think calling out your (to put it lightly) extremism is a perfectly fine thing for anyone to do.
You can't claim that there are people who live here perfectly legally, and who vote legally in our local election don't belong here and then claim that other people are lacking civility when they point our how reminiscent to Nazism your attitude is.
-
Imploding Turtle
- Posts: 19799
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:12 am
- Been Liked: 5483 times
- Has Liked: 2540 times
- Location: Burnley, Lancs
Post
by Imploding Turtle » Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:18 pm
Or you can, but you look like a ******* idiot when you do.
-
Lowbankclaret
- Posts: 6576
- Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:42 pm
- Been Liked: 1233 times
- Has Liked: 56 times
Post
by Lowbankclaret » Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:19 pm
Interestingly we had a debate at work on Monday about the fight over the date of the 9th and the date of the 12th.
It had been suggested that it was because Students are still at uni.
It was suggested by a commentator that students vote twice, once in the Uni city and at home by postal vote .
I mentioned this at work, a friend at work last night mentioned the same to his wife who was enraged I had suggested such behaviour.
In an attempt to put me back in my box she contacted 2 current students at Uni, who both confirmed they voted twice.
She was apoplectic.
-
Lowbankclaret
- Posts: 6576
- Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:42 pm
- Been Liked: 1233 times
- Has Liked: 56 times
Post
by Lowbankclaret » Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:20 pm
Lancasterclaret wrote:And?
Its silly not to allow people who live and work in this country the vote.
Especially over something like this, it directly affects them.
This is a general election.
I completely disagree.
-
Lancasterclaret
- Posts: 23343
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
- Been Liked: 8058 times
- Has Liked: 4714 times
- Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing
Post
by Lancasterclaret » Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:21 pm
If only we had some historical precedent about what happens when we scapegoat people and institutions for political gain eh?