General Election Is On

[Rick_Muller]

So we get a choice between a serial liar or a commie...?

[Cryssys]

More evidence that you cannot trust the Tories:

The National Audit Office (NAO) has condemned the government’s failure on so-called “starter homes”, which were promised in 2015.

As part of the Conservative manifesto under David Cameron, the party committed to “200,000 starter homes, to be sold at a 20% discount and built exclusively for first-time buyers under the age of 40”. The party promise made into the 2015 Spending Review when £2.3bn was given to build 60,000 “starter homes”.

In May 2018, the government announced that £250m had been spent on the “Starter homes land fund”, later clarifying that that this spending had been over two projects, and that building was yet to start.

The above is an extract based on an NAO report, https://www.nao.org.uk/report/investiga ... ter-homes/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Few politicians can be trusted to deliver on their promises but Boris and the rest of the Tory party have taken it to a whole new level.

[Rick_Muller]

More evidence that you cannot trust the Tories:

The National Audit Office (NAO) has condemned the government’s failure on so-called “starter homes”, which were promised in 2015.

As part of the Conservative manifesto under David Cameron, the party committed to “200,000 starter homes, to be sold at a 20% discount and built exclusively for first-time buyers under the age of 40”. The party promise made into the 2015 Spending Review when £2.3bn was given to build 60,000 “starter homes”.

In May 2018, the government announced that £250m had been spent on the “Starter homes land fund”, later clarifying that that this spending had been over two projects, and that building was yet to start.

The above is an extract based on an NAO report, https://www.nao.org.uk/report/investiga ... ter-homes/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Few politicians can be trusted to deliver on their promises but Boris and the rest of the Tory party have taken it to a whole new level.

I'd hazard a guess that the money has somehow found it's way into the coffers of building firms profits somehow, where you can find many a Tory on the board of directors...

[Lancasterclaret]

All I'm going to stay is today is the day that the scales should fall from the eyes of anyone who isn't wealthy.

All the Conservatives need to do to lose the election is to keep Jacob Rees-Mogg chatting away with what he really thinks.

[AlargeClaret]

It was from a paper that LSE did, it's referenced on here somewhere (although probably in the giant Brexit thread).

Agreed that it wouldn't be a big number, it's just weird how often some Brexit voters like to bring up WW2 and veterans in the context of Brexit.

Fair do’s Aggi ,just seemed a bizzare bit of minutiae up there with the “ one legged black lesbian” vote ,(who Id also imagine hardcore Brexiters frothing about )

Anyway Boris for me all day in a horrible choice of leaders

[Jakubclaret]

It's not half as weird as some remainers pretending the leave (some) veterans didn't vote out because of WW2 & just ignoring history as if D-day & Dunkirk was somehow a dream & imagined.

[Devils_Advocate]

It's not half as weird as some remainers pretending the leave (some) veterans didn't vote out because of WW2 & just ignoring history as if D-day & Dunkirk was somehow a dream & imagined.

And its not half as distasteful as some Brexiteers using War Veterans sacrifice as a reason to vote leave

[Top Claret]

All this rubbish on here about trust from our resident Marxists. Labour are no better than the rest, if anything worse. Labours 2017 election manesfesto was a fairy tale writte by the same nutter who as wrote the 2019 one

The only thing Labour ever achieved when they take office is wreck the economy, fact

[martin_p]

All this rubbish on here about trust from our resident Marxists. Labour are no better than the rest, if anything worse. Labours 2017 election manesfesto was a fairy tale writte by the same nutter who as wrote the 2019 one

The only thing Labour ever achieved when they take office is wreck the economy, fact

It’s not a fact though is it.

[Imploding Turtle]

All this rubbish on here about trust from our resident Marxists. Labour are no better than the rest, if anything worse. Labours 2017 election manesfesto was a fairy tale writte by the same nutter who as wrote the 2019 one

The only thing Labour ever achieved when they take office is wreck the economy, fact

Why d'you keep using "Marxist" pejoratively?

[Imploding Turtle]

It’s not a fact though is it.

There's not been a left wing Labour government for how long now? 40 years or something.

[Damo]

Why d'you keep using "Marxist" pejoratively?

Maybe it's because we have seen what Marxism did to the people of Venezuela

[CrosspoolClarets]

Bookies odds are showing massive uncertainty on things like vote share %. This must be due to the unique and unknown effect the Lib Dems and Brexit Party will have. It is very different from UKIP days.

My hunch is that Farage has to back down for Johnson to win a majority. This election night might be a rare one of interest to get the beers in and stay up to watch it. If Labour hold Sunderland due to the leave vote being split that will set the tone for the night.

[Lord Beamish]

Can I advise all those who believe that Brexit means Brexit to put an X next to both the Conservative and Brexit Party Candidates when they vote in December?
Thanks in advance.

[Damo]

Can I advise all those who believe that Brexit means Brexit to put an X next to both the Conservative and Brexit Party Candidates when they vote in December?
Thanks in advance.

Also, all of those who hate the tories should draw a penis in the box next to that candidate

[TheFamilyCat]

Also, all of those who hate the tories should draw a penis in the box next to that candidate

If the candidate is female, should I draw a fanny?

Or if they're a **** for that matter?

[Damo]

If the candidate is female, should I draw a fanny?

Or if they're a **** for that matter?

Yes, or a rainbow if they are gender neutral

[martin_p]

Can I advise all those who believe that Brexit means Brexit to put an X next to both the Conservative and Brexit Party Candidates when they vote in December?
Thanks in advance.

Sound advice. Best to make doubly sure that ‘Brexit gets done’.

[Imploding Turtle]

Maybe it's because we have seen what Marxism did to the people of Venezuela

What about Venezuela makes you think that it is run by a Marxist government? What do you think Marxism is?

[Damo]

What about Venezuela makes you think that it is run by a Marxist government? What do you think Marxism is?

"Marxism, to put it rather simply, is a type of economic system proposed by KarlMarx in which there are no classes. The government would control all resources and means of production to, in theory, ensure equality."

[Lancasterclaret]

What about Venezuela makes you think that it is run by a Marxist government? What do you think Marxism is?

**** me, even I know that the bloke in charge in Venezuela is a Marxist*

*real Marxist in the real world, rather than the ideal set out in Das Kapital**

**sadly, no one has yet managed to create the perfect Marxist state, and that is because it is impossible.

[Imploding Turtle]

**** me, even I know that the bloke in charge in Venezuela is a Marxist*

*real Marxist in the real world, rather than the ideal set out in Das Kapital**

**sadly, no one has yet managed to create the perfect Marxist state, and that is because it is impossible.

I would like Damo to express his own opinions, for once. They can be informed by others, or imagined by himself, but i'd at least like to know what he actually thinks before engaging him on it because one of the problems on this board is that someone will say something not expecting to be challenged on it, and then they'll pretend they didn't mean what they said when confronted with someone trying to dig a little beyond the surface of their meaning.

Often the push back is to then accuse me of being "argumentative", because i asked questions.

[Lord Beamish]

Also, all of those who hate the tories should draw a penis in the box next to that candidate

Derivative, but reasonably funny. 6/10.

[Lancasterclaret]

I would like Damo to express his own opinions, for once. They can be informed by others, or imagined by himself, but i'd at least like to know what he actually thinks before engaging him on it because one of the problems on this board is that someone will say something not expecting to be challenged on it, and then they'll pretend they didn't mean what they said when confronted with someone trying to dig a little beyond the surface of their meaning.

Often the push back is to then accuse me of being "argumentative", because i asked questions.

Fair enough IT, but the clusterfuck that Maduro and Chavez have made of Venezuela is gold dust for anyone opposed to any type of socialism.

Thats the reality.

[Imploding Turtle]

Fair enough IT, but the clusterfuck that Maduro and Chavez have made of Venezuela is gold dust for anyone opposed to any type of socialism.

Thats the reality.

Anyone with a deliberately dumb interpretation of what socialism is.

They were corrupt dictators using Venezuela's resources to enrich and empower themselves. Let me consult Marx's work to find the section where he says that's what he advocates. I'll quote him when i find it.

[Damo]

I would like Damo to express his own opinions, for once. They can be informed by others, or imagined by himself, but i'd at least like to know what he actually thinks before engaging him on it because one of the problems on this board is that someone will say something not expecting to be challenged on it, and then they'll pretend they didn't mean what they said when confronted with someone trying to dig a little beyond the surface of their meaning.

Often the push back is to then accuse me of being "argumentative", because i asked questions.

Chavez nationalised the oil production in Venezuela, and distributed the wealth amongst it's people.
"The government would control all resources and means of production to, in theory, ensure equality."

Venezuela was lauded by Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott (and Owen Jones, let's not forget him) as some kind of blueprint for a socialist utopia...

Until oil prices crashed, and people started breaking into Zoo's to try and feed themselves.

I know your textbook reply is "but it wasnt real socialism"
Only, it certainly was until it failed, and starved millions

[Lancasterclaret]

Anyone with a deliberately dumb interpretation of what socialism is.

They were corrupt dictators using Venezuela's resources to enrich and empower themselves. Let me consult Marx's work to find the section where he says that's what he advocates. I'll quote him when i find it.

Now, now IT

I explained in my original post what the problem with reality Marxism rather than ideological Marxism is.

And whether you like it or not, Maduro and Chavez have done enormous damage to people opinions of socialism (including me, and you'd hardly call me someone who walks around reading or believing the right wing press)

Uncontrolled populist socialism is just as damaging as uncontrolled right wing populism is.

[Imploding Turtle]

Now, now IT

I explained in my original post what the problem with reality Marxism rather than ideological Marxism is.

And whether you like it or not, Maduro and Chavez have done enormous damage to people opinions of socialism (including me, and you'd hardly call me someone who walks around reading or believing the right wing press)

Uncontrolled populist socialism is just as damaging as uncontrolled right wing populism is.

Claiming that socialism failed in venezuela because the countrys leaders were corrupt and exploited the socialism for their own enrichment and empowerment is like saying that capitalism has failed because Trump and Republicans are exploiting it to enrich and empower themselves. It doesn't make sense.

The difference between the US and Venezuela that is preventing the US from immediately falling into failed-state status is that the US has more robust legal protections and legal infrastructures than venezuela, AND is also has a much more diverse source of wealth. When a country's wealth is locked so much into a few sources, especially natural resources, then that country is far more susceptible to tyranny.

Capitalists love to point out that Venezuela failed, and that Venezuela was (is) socialist. Yet they never explain why socialism was responsible for the failure. Please, take this chance to explain the causal relationship.

[Imploding Turtle]

Now conservatives are deceptively editing interviews that Labour MPs take

Why are they so deceitful all the ******* time?

[randomclaret2]

Some cracking A level Politics homework essays being quoted here...C minus at best though, must do better.

[AndyClaret]

Now conservatives are deceptively editing interviews that Labour MPs take

Why are they so deceitful all the ******* time?

And it's gone even more viral since, clever if you ask me.

[Imploding Turtle]

And it's gone even more viral since, clever if you ask me.

But dishonest. When did dishonestly become OK with you?

And the reason it's gone viral is because of people pointing out how dishonest it is. Believe it or not, Andy, the adage "all publicity is good publicity" isn't true.

[Lowbankclaret]

And it's gone even more viral since, clever if you ask me.

Post us a link, I like a laugh.

[Lancasterclaret]

You won't like this link

Pretty much shows how much the Brexit Party standing hurts the Conservative vote in marginals they have to win

https://twitter.com/robfordmancs/status ... 7446680576" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[AndyClaret]

Post us a link, I like a laugh.

https://twitter.com/GMB/status/1191614073508696064" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Lancasterclaret]

Claiming that socialism failed in venezuela because the countrys leaders were corrupt and exploited the socialism for their own enrichment and empowerment is like saying that capitalism has failed because Trump and Republicans are exploiting it to enrich and empower themselves. It doesn't make sense.

The difference between the US and Venezuela that is preventing the US from immediately falling into failed-state status is that the US has more robust legal protections and legal infrastructures than venezuela, AND is also has a much more diverse source of wealth. When a country's wealth is locked so much into a few sources, especially natural resources, then that country is far more susceptible to tyranny.

Capitalists love to point out that Venezuela failed, and that Venezuela was (is) socialist. Yet they never explain why socialism was responsible for the failure. Please, take this chance to explain the causal relationship.

No offence IT, but I don't have to debate anything on this.

Whether we like it or not, the Venezuelan Maduro/Chavez situation is used by conservatives to beat socialists around the head with.

it doesn't help that socialists in the UK have praised the socialist government in Venezuela either does it?

[AndyClaret]

You won't like this link

Pretty much shows how much the Brexit Party standing hurts the Conservative vote in marginals they have to win

https://twitter.com/robfordmancs/status ... 7446680576" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

All what if's and estimates, i've seen estimates that bxp voters are 2/3rds tory to 1/3 labour, to closer to 50/50.

[Imploding Turtle]

No offence IT, but I don't have to debate anything on this.

Whether we like it or not, the Venezuelan Maduro/Chavez situation is used by conservatives to beat socialists around the head with.

it doesn't help that socialists in the UK have praised the socialist government in Venezuela either does it?

It doesn't help when you allow them to get away with an obvious logical fallacy when they do.

[mkmel]

On the voting cards if at the bottom there was a square for None of the Above it would win by a landslide

In my long life I have never known it to be as bad as this and so difficult to vote for anyone

Corbyn no thanks

Johnson I would rather stick needles in my eyeballs

Luckily in a week and a bit I will be in the Phillipines so that makes my decision for me

[Lancasterclaret]

All what if's and estimates, i've seen estimates that bxp voters are 2/3rds tory to 1/3 labour, to closer to 50/50.

****, yeah, experts don't know ****.

If Lab voters were 50/50 leave, then how come the referendum was 52/48?

[AndyClaret]

But dishonest. When did dishonestly become OK with you?

And the reason it's gone viral is because of people pointing out how dishonest it is. Believe it or not, Andy, the adage "all publicity is good publicity" isn't true.

people who wouldn't otherwise have seen it, now see Starmer having a mare.

[Imploding Turtle]

people who wouldn't otherwise have seen it, now see Starmer having a mare.

But he didn't have a mare, though. You know that, right? You understand that that's the lie, right?

[Lancasterclaret]

It doesn't help when you allow them to get away with an obvious logical fallacy when they do.

I'm not though

Owen Jones, Jeremy Corbyn and Ken Livingstone have all praised the socialist government in Venezuela (amongst others)

Its pretty hard to argue with that (even though in all cases its almost certainly praising Venezuela because the US is attacking it)

[Lancasterclaret]

But he didn't have a mare, though. You know that, right? You understand that that's the lie, right?

He's not bothered if its a lie or not.

Surely to god you know with people like Andy by now (and he's not alone on here) it doesn't matter if its true or not, as long as they get what they want.

[FactualFrank]

I'm still undecided on whether Jo Swinson would get it. Providing she doesn't talk.

[Imploding Turtle]

I'm not though

Owen Jones, Jeremy Corbyn and Ken Livingstone have all praised the socialist government in Venezuela (amongst others)

Its pretty hard to argue with that (even though in all cases its almost certainly praising Venezuela because the US is attacking it)

Oh ffs, Lancaster. The logical fallacy is when people claim that just because it was a socialist government, and the government failed, that it failed because it was a socialist government.

I would like one of those people who think socialism is to blame for the failure of the Venezuelan government to explain *how* socialism is responsible for the failure of the Venezuelan government.

Also, it's funny how no one blames capitalism for the failure of capitalist governments, isn't it? #DoubleStandard

[Imploding Turtle]

He's not bothered if its a lie or not.

Surely to god you know with people like Andy by now (and he's not alone on here) it doesn't matter if its true or not, as long as they get what they want.

I do. I just want everyone reading our posts to know it too.

[AndyClaret]

But he didn't have a mare, though. You know that, right? You understand that that's the lie, right?

It's not a lie, it's my opinion, he had a mare, he wouldn't answer the question,their Brexit policy is nonsensical. It would make more sense if they said they would renegotiate, then put their new deal (and campaign in favour of it) in a second referendum.

[AndyClaret]

I do. I just want everyone reading our posts to know it too.

I've posted the video, people can make their own minds up, everyone knows Labour's Brexit policy is a shambles, half of them say campaign for the deal, the other half say still remain whatever deal they get. No leadership whatsoever.

[Imploding Turtle]

It's not a lie, it's my opinion, he had a mare, he wouldn't answer the question,their Brexit policy is nonsensical. It would make more sense if they said they would renegotiate, then put their new deal (and campaign in favour of it) in a second referendum.

No, it's literally a lie. The Conservatives had to dishonestly edit an interview to make it look like Starmer had a bad interview. If he'd really had a bad interview then they wouldn't have needed to dishonestly edit it.

You seem quite OK with the Tories lying like that. Most people would be troubled by a willingness to cheer on a political party when they so obviously lie about their opponents during an election. But then most people value honesty.