General Election Is On

[AndyClaret]

No, it's literally a lie. The Conservatives had to dishonestly edit an interview to make it look like Starmer had a bad interview. If he'd really had a bad interview then they wouldn't have needed to dishonestly edit it.

You seem quite OK with the Tories lying like that. Most people would be troubled by a willingness to cheer on a political party when they so obviously lie about their opponents during an election. But then most people value honesty.

I posted the GMB version, he still had a mare.

[Imploding Turtle]

Security officials say that the report on Russian interference can be published immediately.

Clearly Boris thinks doing so would hurt his election chances. Why is that?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... reddit.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Lowbankclaret]

I've posted the video, people can make their own minds up, everyone knows Labour's Brexit policy is a shambles, half of them say campaign for the deal, the other half say still remain whatever deal they get. No leadership whatsoever.

I watched the first part of that live this morning, he got toasted.

He said he wasn’t a millionaire but then admitted his house was worth over a million. He was getting flustered, I had to leave to go to work so missed the rest.

[Lowbankclaret]

No, it's literally a lie. The Conservatives had to dishonestly edit an interview to make it look like Starmer had a bad interview. If he'd really had a bad interview then they wouldn't have needed to dishonestly edit it.

You seem quite OK with the Tories lying like that. Most people would be troubled by a willingness to cheer on a political party when they so obviously lie about their opponents during an election. But then most people value honesty.

Watched the first bit, he got toasted.

[Imploding Turtle]

Watched the first bit, he got toasted.

Wanna see a Tory get toasted over the claim of adding 20,000 police after they removed 21,000? The difference being no one would need to dishonestly edit the Tory getting toasted.

[Lowbankclaret]

Wanna see a Tory get toasted over the claim of adding 20,000 police after they removed 21,000? The difference being no one would need to dishonestly edit the Tory getting toasted.

Your trying to tell me Labour are not dishonest.

Your not ever going to convince me of that nowadays.

[Imploding Turtle]

Your trying to tell me Labour are not dishonest.

Your not ever going to convince me of that nowadays.

By all means, please link the video that Labour dishonestly edited and tweeted out.

Dishonest editing is a staple of the right-wing and far right-wing propaganda stream.

Remember this scandal of Corbyn dancing en route to a Remembrance Sunday service?

[Damo]

Oh ffs, Lancaster. The logical fallacy is when people claim that just because it was a socialist government, and the government failed, that it failed because it was a socialist government.

I would like one of those people who think socialism is to blame for the failure of the Venezuelan government to explain *how* socialism is responsible for the failure of the Venezuelan government.

Also, it's funny how no one blames capitalism for the failure of capitalist governments, isn't it? #DoubleStandard

Socialism is the reason Venezuela is in such a mess.
I'm sure there was some corruption, as that is usually the end result of these kinds of experiments.
But putting a cap on the price of everything made it impossible to make a living by producing anything.
The result being 90% of all exports being oil.
When the oil market collapsed, so did everything else.

Charlie, people remember the last Labour government making it more productive to toss it off, than pull your weight for many people.
It almost bankrupted the country.
You are going to have a hard time trying to convince people to elect a far more extreme version of Blair's government

[AndrewJB]

I'm not though

Owen Jones, Jeremy Corbyn and Ken Livingstone have all praised the socialist government in Venezuela (amongst others)

Its pretty hard to argue with that (even though in all cases its almost certainly praising Venezuela because the US is attacking it)

I don’t think Thatcher and other right wingers were extolling the virtues of death squads and torture when they praised Pinochet’s Chile, and nor should anyone seriously believe Corbyn and Owen were cheerleading for corruption when they praised Venezuela. It wasn’t the building of schools, and hospitals that caused Venezuela’s economic problems. But if right wingers are desperate to pin the blame on ideology, how do they explain the problems that preceded Chavez in Venezuela other than admitting that capitalism doesn’t work either?

[AndrewJB]

Socialism is the reason Venezuela is in such a mess.
I'm sure there was some corruption, as that is usually the end result of these kinds of experiments.
But putting a cap on the price of everything made it impossible to make a living by producing anything.
The result being 90% of all exports being oil.
When the oil market collapsed, so did everything else.

Charlie, people remember the last Labour government making it more productive to toss it off, than pull your weight for many people.
It almost bankrupted the country.
You are going to have a hard time trying to convince people to elect a far more extreme version of Blair's government

There are plenty of countries around Venezuela that don’t practice any sort of socialism, and they all have similar problems to Venezuela. Are you going to say Guatemala, El Salvador, and Honduras are reasons why Capitalism never works?

[Spijed]

Another Tory MP:


Lewis Goodall
@lewis_goodall
So according to Andrew Bridgen JRM would have made a better decision than both the members of the public in the building and the fire fighters at the scene because he’s “an authority figure” and “clever.”

[Damo]

There are plenty of countries around Venezuela that don’t practice any sort of socialism, and they all have similar problems to Venezuela. Are you going to say Guatemala, El Salvador, and Honduras are reasons why Capitalism never works?

Do Guatemala, El Salvador and Honduras have anything like the amount of natural resources that Venezuela has?

[elwaclaret]

[quote="AndrewJB"]I don’t think Thatcher and other right wingers were extolling the virtues of death squads and torture when they praised Pinochet’s Chile, and nor should anyone seriously believe Corbyn and Owen were cheerleading for corruption when they praised Venezuela. It wasn’t the building of schools, and hospitals that caused Venezuela’s economic problems. But if right wingers are desperate to pin the blame on ideology, how do they explain the problems that preceded Chavez in Venezuela other than admitting that capitalism doesn’t work either?[/quote.

The problem with all utopian systems, is they are wide open to people who see an opportunity for themselves within them. They infiltrate, and slowly embed... whether it’s fraud, corruption or outright takeovers, it is why the Sailors of the Potemkin’s of this world end up getting shot. There are sharp self important, in it for the career types just waiting to pull the goofy kid’s trousers down.

+ Jeremy Corbyn has a nasty habit of putting his trust / faith in the wrong horses... or at least being easily made into negative sound bites.

[Lancasterclaret]

Not going to lie here, defending Chavez and Maduro is a great pre-election look.

[AndrewJB]

Do Guatemala, El Salvador and Honduras have anything like the amount of natural resources that Venezuela has?

You want a more exact comparison? Venezuela before Chavez.

[Imploding Turtle]

Do Guatemala, El Salvador and Honduras have anything like the amount of natural resources that Venezuela has?

What's your point exactly? What has natural resources got to do with this after you basically denied oil as being the cause of the corruption that caused the failure of the Venezuelan government?

Can a country only be successful in capitalism if it has abundant natural resources, or something?

[Imploding Turtle]

Not going to lie here, defending Chavez and Maduro is a great pre-election look.

Who's doing that?

[AndrewJB]

By all means, please link the video that Labour dishonestly edited and tweeted out.

Dishonest editing is a staple of the right-wing and far right-wing propaganda stream.

Remember this scandal of Corbyn dancing en route to a Remembrance Sunday service?

Nobody seems to know what was wrong with the photos.

[Imploding Turtle]

Nobody seems to know what was wrong with the photos.

They were edited to crop out the war veteran he was walking and having a conversation with. He wasn't dancing.

But i'm sure Andy thought the edits were "clever" and was delighted by them

[Lancasterclaret]

On a day that Jacob Rees-Mogg and Andrew Bridgen drove home the point how much the Conservatives look down on the average voter, you two are going on and on and on and on and on and on and on about Maduro and Venezuela.

What platform did Chavez and Maduro stand on?

[AlargeClaret]

By all means, please link the video that Labour dishonestly edited and tweeted out.

Dishonest editing is a staple of the right-wing and far right-wing propaganda stream.

Remember this scandal of Corbyn dancing en route to a Remembrance Sunday service?

By all means, please link the video that Labour dishonestly edited and tweeted out.

Dishonest editing is a staple of the right-wing and far right-wing propaganda stream.

Remember this scandal of Corbyn dancing en route to a Remembrance Sunday service?

Utter nonsense , the left and far left are just as guilty at selective editing as any “mainstream “right ( as for the “ far right? The Nazi party? BNP ? Does anyone truly listen to them )

People mistakenly call the mainstream media “ right wing” which is idiocy . The BBC /ITV and even SKY these days are the softest of soft “liberal- uber wet tory” level politically Then you take the big huge daily city newspapers like the Standard /MEN/ Record etc add them to the Indy/Guardian /Metro/Mirror et al and it’s a far cry from the “ fascist right wing press” oft quoted by foaming trots and angsty students

[AndrewJB]

Backing the wrong horses? Like Mandela, when the Oxford Conservatives (to which Johnson belonged when he was there) put up posters calling for him to be hanged? Wrong horse like not going to war in Iraq, or Libya? Voting against austerity? You have the benefit of hindsight, so find me some real (not made up) examples of where Corbyn has got it wrong on something. There are a few I can think of.

[Imploding Turtle]

Utter nonsense , the left and far left are just as guilty at selective editing as any “mainstream “right ( as for the “ far right? The Nazi party? BNP ? Does anyone truly listen to them )

People mistakenly call the mainstream media “ right wing” which is idiocy . The BBC /ITV and even SKY these days are the softest of soft “liberal- uber wet tory” level politically Then you take the big huge daily city newspapers like the Standard /MEN/ Record etc add them to the Indy/Guardian /Metro/Mirror et al and it’s a far cry from the “ fascist right wing press” oft quoted by foaming trots and angsty students

So you admit that the main TV network news is Tory news, and then you compare centre and centre-left national news papers with city newspapers.

Hmm... any reason you chose not to include the likes of the Mail, Sun, Express and Telegraph here? Surely it wasn't to give a dishonest idea of balance. And would you like me to show you the circulation of the right-wing/far-right press (mail, sun, express) compared to their centre-left counterparts?

Hatred sells, and no doubt you're buying.

[martin_p]

Utter nonsense , the left and far left are just as guilty at selective editing as any “mainstream “right ( as for the “ far right? The Nazi party? BNP ? Does anyone truly listen to them )

He asked for an example rather than a (currently) baseless opinion.

But Lancaster has it right, the focus today should be on JRM’s appalling comments (no editing needed).

[CombatClaret]

Just 1 day from the Tories:
Release doctored video
Sit on report about Russian interference
Abandon promise to give MPs vote on transition extension
Report reveals they built 0 houses out of 200K
Rees-Mogg blames Grenfell victims
Bridgen says they lacked intelligence

[Imploding Turtle]

Just 1 day from the Tories:
Release doctored video
Sit on report about Russian interference
Abandon promise to give MPs vote on transition extension
Report reveals they built 0 houses out of 200K
Rees-Mogg blames Grenfell victims
Bridgen says they lacked intelligence

All in all, a pretty good day for Labour and the Lib Dems.

[Imploding Turtle]

I half expect another Tory to come out and defend Bridgen with "well obviously they lacked intelligence otherwise they wouldn't have been poor".

[elwaclaret]

Backing the wrong horses? Like Mandela, when the Oxford Conservatives (to which Johnson belonged when he was there) put up posters calling for him to be hanged? Wrong horse like not going to war in Iraq, or Libya? Voting against austerity? You have the benefit of hindsight, so find me some real (not made up) examples of where Corbyn has got it wrong on something. There are a few I can think of.

Not interested in a bout of tit for tat, just thought I’d point out you needn’t point to specific accounts and snigger... or make pull people to pieces. I’m not a Corbin brasher, I’d more than welcome being wrong. Labour’s domestic plans work for me... however they will run out of money before they get close to achieving it imho. With the best of intentions they will send us back to the seventies (when it wasn’t Labours fault)

[summitclaret]

On the voting cards if at the bottom there was a square for None of the Above it would win by a landslide

In my long life I have never known it to be as bad as this and so difficult to vote for anyone

Corbyn no thanks

Johnson I would rather stick needles in my eyeballs

Luckily in a week and a bit I will be in the Phillipines so that makes my decision for me

I suspect that some labour leave voters that could never vote tory may just not vote or vote for the BP. Either way that helps the tories. Labour's position on brexit is a joke.

If they can form a Government and get a new deal based on a CU/single market then the whole thing will be a farce, partly because we would be paying 39 billion for no change. I would not vote in any referendum based on such a remain deal v remain and I doubt many leavers would. If they can get 17.4m votes for remain fair enough. No chance that any such remain would end matters.

[TheFamilyCat]

Just 1 day from the Tories:
Release doctored video
Sit on report about Russian interference
Abandon promise to give MPs vote on transition extension
Report reveals they built 0 houses out of 200K
Rees-Mogg blames Grenfell victims
Bridgen says they lacked intelligence

I reckon they could make May's campaign look like an act of political genius.

[Quickenthetempo]

For anyone wondering if the speakers seat will be contested?

It will.

By the Green Party.

[Imploding Turtle]

For anyone wondering if the speakers seat will be contested?

It will.

By the Green Party.

That's not unusual. Bercow's seat was contested by the Greens and UKIP in the last two elections, and by a bunch of people in 2010. None of whom were from the Lib Dems or Labour.

[martin_p]

I suspect that some labour leave voters that could never vote tory may just not vote or vote for the BP. Either way that helps the tories. Labour's position on brexit is a joke.

If they can form a Government and get a new deal based on a CU/single market then the whole thing will be a farce, partly because we would be paying 39 billion for no change. I would not vote in any referendum based on such a remain deal v remain and I doubt many leavers would. If they can get 17.4m votes for remain fair enough. No chance that any such remain would end matters.

The £39 billion was us paying our dues up until the end of the transition period in December 2020. We’ll be paying that whether we remain or leave with any sort of deal.

[Imploding Turtle]

I suspect that some labour leave voters that could never vote tory may just not vote or vote for the BP. Either way that helps the tories. Labour's position on brexit is a joke.

If they can form a Government and get a new deal based on a CU/single market then the whole thing will be a farce, partly because we would be paying 39 billion for no change. I would not vote in any referendum based on such a remain deal v remain and I doubt many leavers would. If they can get 17.4m votes for remain fair enough. No chance that any such remain would end matters.

I think it's worth pointing out that while there might be a lot of Labour-Leave voters, they're probably not "No Deal" Leave voters like so many Tory Leave voters seem to be. I think it's reasonable to expect that not that many of them will want to vote Tory just because they voted Leave since the Tories threaten a No Deal brexit.

[Lowbankclaret]

The £39 billion was us paying our dues up until the end of the transition period in December 2020. We’ll be paying that whether we remain or leave with any sort of deal.

We will pay the 39billion.

Then pay exactly what we do now for a trade deal.

The EU will be 39 billion richer and we will be 39 billion worse off.

[summitclaret]

Same old story labour and LD lies. The tory party wants a deal on the WA and a free trade deal from the second stage. Obviously we won't get the best deal we could have if yet again the negotiations have to be done without the option to walk away.

[Imploding Turtle]

Same old story labour and LD lies. The tory party wants a deal on the WA and a free trade deal from the second stage. Obviously we won't get the best deal we could have if yet again the negotiations have to be done without the option to walk away.

But it was the Tories who pulled the WA from parliament. Why?

[Pstotto]

I've decided not to follow the show and get on with something worthwhile and only to use the Internet on a Saturday evening to get the footy news. I've come back on today because I had to post something elsewhere.

Why kow-tow to the madness?

[elwaclaret]

I think it's worth pointing out that while there might be a lot of Labour-Leave voters, they're probably not "No Deal" Leave voters like so many Tory Leave voters seem to be. I think it's reasonable to expect that not that many of them will want to vote Tory just because they voted Leave since the Tories threaten a No Deal brexit.

Just for once IT I could not agree less. I think there are places over in Yorkshire will be turning blue, that would have made fathers weep.

While May hid in the last campaign, throughout; the Tories will be all guns blazing this time. Think it might comes down to who makes the biggest gaffs, but I expect the Tories to improve their last election... and possibly by some distance.

Edit - autospelling

[summitclaret]

It wasn't but they decided not to bring back another programme motion. It was pretty clear that the bill was going to be amended to include a CU at least and possibly to remain in the single market and that would be a brino bexit. The HOC is a disgrace and run by manifesto deniers like Greive.

[Imploding Turtle]

Just for once IT I could not agree less. I think there are places over in Yorkshire will be turning blue, that would have made fathers weep.

While May hid in the last campaign, throughout; the Tories will be all guns blazing this time. Think it might comes down to who makes the biggest gaffs, but I expect the Tories to improve their last election... and possibly by some distance.

Edit - autospelling

Currently 17 Tory MPs and 35 Labour MPs from the 54 constituencies in Yorkshire. We'll see, but i doubt Tories will get many more than what they have currently, even if they win the election.

[Erasmus]

Apart from Rees-Mogg's horrible comments, the most awful thing I have seen in the news today is the way in which vulnerable people have been made destitute and are having to rely on food banks to feed their children. The old lie, which I have seen on here a few times, that use of food banks is not due to poverty has now been disproved; it is poverty and destitution amongst disabled and disadvantaged people that forces them to rely on food banks.

This is a national disgrace, and should be a source of shame for all of us. In a country that has so much wealth how can we tolerate such levels of poverty? Rees-Mogg is a buffoon (and not an anti-establishment rebel) and so remarks such as those he made today are to be expected of him. But the poverty that stalks the land is a result of deliberate government policies, the heartless disregard of the rich for the plight of the poor, and one is bound to say the sheer cruelty that has beset the Conservative Party since Thatcher's time. How could anyone possibly vote for such uncaring politicians?

[martin_p]

Same old story labour and LD lies. The tory party wants a deal on the WA and a free trade deal from the second stage. Obviously we won't get the best deal we could have if yet again the negotiations have to be done without the option to walk away.

You’re not really getting any of this are you. The transition period has a maximum extension of two years so there’d be a point where we’d move to WTO terms anyway. But an extension would actually give us a chance of a trade deal rather than having to get it sorted out in essentially three months without an extension.

[AndrewJB]

Not interested in a bout of tit for tat, just thought I’d point out you needn’t point to specific accounts and snigger... or make pull people to pieces. I’m not a Corbin brasher, I’d more than welcome being wrong. Labour’s domestic plans work for me... however they will run out of money before they get close to achieving it imho. With the best of intentions they will send us back to the seventies (when it wasn’t Labours fault)

If you're going to say Corbyn backed the wrong horse - then it shouldn't be too much to ask you which ones those were.

This "run out of money" and "take us back to the seventies" stuff sounds like it's come from an editorial in one of the many rightwing Pravdas we have here. Nationalising utilities and rail puts assets onto our books that can themselves pay off the debt created in purchasing them. The real stupidity was in selling them in the first place.

Climate change and how we address it will be a bigger issue in this election than in any other. This is probably why Johnson has promised to stop fracking, "for the time being" (we all know that if he wins a majority, the UK will become Frack City).

Addressing climate change will be expensive, but it won't be just throwing money away. It's a massive opportunity for the country and our economy, with government led investment in green industries, spinning off to business and people, and communities, all over the country. The money spent will create things that save us money, and pay decent wages that people will then spend back into the economy.

In contrast, the Tories will give tax breaks to people to invest offshore, and hand over parts of our economy to rich people to earn more money out of. The NHS and the environment are coincidental to the Tories - just like the money spaffed up the wall creating no new starter houses for however many billions they've invested in the scheme.

[summitclaret]

You’re not really getting any of this are you. The transition period has a maximum extension of two years so there’d be a point where we’d move to WTO terms anyway. But an extension would actually give us a chance of a trade deal rather than having to get it sorted out in essentially three months without an extension.

So do you agree that no trade deal can never be taken off the table?

[elwaclaret]

If you're going to say Corbyn backed the wrong horse - then it shouldn't be too much to ask you which ones those were.

This "run out of money" and "take us back to the seventies" stuff sounds like it's come from an editorial in one of the many rightwing Pravdas we have here. Nationalising utilities and rail puts assets onto our books that can themselves pay off the debt created in purchasing them. The real stupidity was in selling them in the first place.

Climate change and how we address it will be a bigger issue in this election than in any other. This is probably why Johnson has promised to stop fracking, "for the time being" (we all know that if he wins a majority, the UK will become Frack City).

Addressing climate change will be expensive, but it won't be just throwing money away. It's a massive opportunity for the country and our economy, with government led investment in green industries, spinning off to business and people, and communities, all over the country. The money spent will create things that save us money, and pay decent wages that people will then spend back into the economy.

In contrast, the Tories will give tax breaks to people to invest offshore, and hand over parts of our economy to rich people to earn more money out of. The NHS and the environment are coincidental to the Tories - just like the money spaffed up the wall creating no new starter houses for however many billions they've invested in the scheme.

The Tories can disassociate themselves with May’s government. They pretty much got away with “austerity” ( Europe wide), and I expect them to go big time for traditional Labour ground.... Nationalising Rail is an obvious boon whoever pulls it off (it needn’t be treated as a measure only the left can make).. the South East needs it every bit as much as the Rest of the country, if not more.

The biggest fear I have is are we about to re- nationalise just as a lot of major infrastructure needs replacing? Maybe it is a price worth paying, but I expect it being a good few years before they get it turning a profit from it.

[Dy1geo]

Whilst I agree with Labour’s policies regarding Nationalisation of the Railways I cannot support at the current time nationalisation of the Utility’s and Royal Mail.

The concern is over debt repayments at present the £68bn of debt repayments on the £1.8bn (approx 86% of GDP) is roughly 3.5% of national income. This is down to the low GILT yields the government can obtain at present, any Labour government would have to borrow to fund re-nationalisation which would mean an increase to debt repayments and the worry is if there was a run on the £ which McDonnell indicates could be the case thus the coupons would rise on GILT’s to attract the investors forcing the % of net income spent on debt to rise.

[AndrewJB]

I suspect that some labour leave voters that could never vote tory may just not vote or vote for the BP. Either way that helps the tories. Labour's position on brexit is a joke.

If they can form a Government and get a new deal based on a CU/single market then the whole thing will be a farce, partly because we would be paying 39 billion for no change. I would not vote in any referendum based on such a remain deal v remain and I doubt many leavers would. If they can get 17.4m votes for remain fair enough. No chance that any such remain would end matters.

Labour's position on Brexit is very middle of the road. Negotiate a leave deal better for ordinary people - which a customs union one would be. I know it would curtail other trade deals for the UK, but the loss of EU trade, and any new trade deals negotiated by the Tories would be worse for UK workers. So on the balance it would be better. This deal (and I have to point out how much easier and quicker it would be to negotiate than the ones the Tories attempted, because a customs union gets rid of all the issues around the Irish border). This is good for British workers, not a farce.

This deal will then be put to the UK in a referendum against remaining.

Is that really hard for you to understand?

[Devils_Advocate]

Its 6 months old and from the US but with the current talk of billionaires, foodbanks and wealth distribution I think this is a great video to highlight the sad chasm between the different parts of society and one sides distinct lack of care about those at the bottom of ladder
Im pretty sure theres a few regular posters on here who will be ready to come out batting for multi millionaire JP Morgan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOfx931LNJ0

[JohnMcGreal]

Apart from Rees-Mogg's horrible comments, the most awful thing I have seen in the news today is the way in which vulnerable people have been made destitute and are having to rely on food banks to feed their children. The old lie, which I have seen on here a few times, that use of food banks is not due to poverty has now been disproved; it is poverty and destitution amongst disabled and disadvantaged people that forces them to rely on food banks.

This is a national disgrace, and should be a source of shame for all of us. In a country that has so much wealth how can we tolerate such levels of poverty? Rees-Mogg is a buffoon (and not an anti-establishment rebel) and so remarks such as those he made today are to be expected of him. But the poverty that stalks the land is a result of deliberate government policies, the heartless disregard of the rich for the plight of the poor, and one is bound to say the sheer cruelty that has beset the Conservative Party since Thatcher's time. How could anyone possibly vote for such uncaring politicians?

Because they're uncaring as well.