General Election Is On

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:20 pm

Dy1geo wrote:Whilst I agree with Labour’s policies regarding Nationalisation of the Railways I cannot support at the current time nationalisation of the Utility’s and Royal Mail.

The concern is over debt repayments at present the £68bn of debt repayments on the £1.8bn (approx 86% of GDP) is roughly 3.5% of national income. This is down to the low GILT yields the government can obtain at present, any Labour government would have to borrow to fund re-nationalisation which would mean an increase to debt repayments and the worry is if there was a run on the £ which McDonnell indicates could be the case thus the coupons would rise on GILT’s to attract the investors forcing the % of net income spent on debt to rise.

We were told that austerity was necessary to reduce that debt, but debt to GDP hasn't gone down since the Tories took over 9 years ago. It's gone up.

Not entirely related to your point, but i thought i'd throw it out there.

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:22 pm

elwaclaret wrote:The Tories can disassociate themselves with May’s government. They pretty much got away with “austerity” ( Europe wide), and I expect them to go big time for traditional Labour ground.... Nationalising Rail is an obvious boon whoever pulls it off (it needn’t be treated as a measure only the left can make).. the South East needs it every bit as much as the Rest of the country, if not more.

The biggest fear I have is are we about to re- nationalise just as a lot of major infrastructure needs replacing? Maybe it is a price worth paying, but I expect it being a good few years before they get it turning a profit from it.

The Tories ARE austerity. How can Johnson absolve himself from that? And the rest of his cabinet - who are nearly all right wing loonies the lot? They can't just walk away from what they've done over the last ten years and say: "not me" - Johnson is a proven liar. Does it matter what he says anymore? He'll say anything to get elected, and then walk away from his promises like he did today.

TheFamilyCat · Post by **TheFamilyCat** » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:22 pm

AndrewJB wrote:Labour's position on Brexit is very middle of the road. Negotiate a leave deal better for ordinary people - which a customs union one would be. I know it would curtail other trade deals for the UK, but the loss of EU trade, and any new trade deals negotiated by the Tories would be worse for UK workers. So on the balance it would be better. This deal (and I have to point out how much easier and quicker it would be to negotiate than the ones the Tories attempted, because a customs union gets rid of all the issues around the Irish border). This is good for British workers, not a farce.

This deal will then be put to the UK in a referendum against remaining.

Is that really hard for you to understand?

I think, though may be wrong, that it is Corbyn's reluctance to say whether he would campaign for the deal or remain that is resulting to the "farce" claims.

To be honest, and I'm no Corbyn fan, I think that is s good stance. Why should the government be campaigning on either side? If he can negotiate a good deal and then a referendum, then it truly is putting it in the people's hands and not trying to influence them in any way.

taio · Post by **taio** » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:25 pm

AndrewJB wrote:Labour's position on Brexit is very middle of the road. Negotiate a leave deal better for ordinary people - which a customs union one would be. I know it would curtail other trade deals for the UK, but the loss of EU trade, and any new trade deals negotiated by the Tories would be worse for UK workers. So on the balance it would be better. This deal (and I have to point out how much easier and quicker it would be to negotiate than the ones the Tories attempted, because a customs union gets rid of all the issues around the Irish border). This is good for British workers, not a farce.

This deal will then be put to the UK in a referendum against remaining.

Is that really hard for you to understand?

What do you understand Labour's position to be on single market alignment and freedom of movement?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:32 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Its 6 months old and from the US but with the current talk of billionaires, foodbanks and wealth distribution I think this is a great video to highlight the sad chasm between the different parts of society and one sides distinct lack of care about those at the bottom of ladder
Im pretty sure theres a few regular posters on here who will be ready to come out batting for multi millionaire JP Morgan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOfx931LNJ0

Where's AndyClaret when you need him, eh? He'd tell her to get rid of Netflix. Problem solved.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:34 pm

taio wrote:What do you understand Labour's position to be on single market alignment and freedom of movement?

Wait. Now you want specifics about Brexit? Shame you didn't think to ask for them 3 ******* years ago, eh?

taio · Post by **taio** » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:37 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Wait. Now you want specifics about Brexit? Shame you didn't think to ask for them 3 ******* years ago, eh?

I wasnt asking you, but eh?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:52 pm

taio wrote:I wasnt asking you, but eh?

That doesn't matter.

taio · Post by **taio** » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:56 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:That doesn't matter.

So what was your point? Like everyone else I had to judge my vote at the referendum based on the best information available at the time.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:09 pm

taio wrote:So what was your point? Like everyone else I had to judge my vote at the referendum based on the best information available at the time.

My point was I'm pleased you're finally demanding some kind of explanation as to what kind of Brexit to expect now that the question is being possed to Labour 3 and a half years after the answer would have mattered the most.

taio · Post by **taio** » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:14 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:My point was I'm pleased you're finally demanding some kind of explanation as to what kind of Brexit to expect now that the question is being possed to Labour 3 and a half years after the answer would have mattered the most.

Do you think I've only been seeking explanations now? And I wasn't demanding anything. I asked a simple question in a polite fashion. You might find the goalposts have constantly moved in the last three and a half years. Your point is extremely weak and you just like trying to argue with anyone and everyone.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:19 pm

taio wrote:Do you think I've only been seeking explanations now? And I wasn't demanding anything. I asked a simple question in a polite fashion. You might find the goalposts have constantly moved in the last three and a half years. Your point is extremely weak and you just like trying to argue with anyone and everyone.

Yes, the goalposts have definitely moved in the last three years because we were told that voting Leave meant leaving the EU with a deal that would make Leaving easy and uneventful, but now we're being told the only real Brexit is a no deal Brexit. Even if you had been asking prior to the referendum, the fact that you didn't get an answer and still voted leave, and then continued to support leave even though the Tories have been pursuing a no deal brexit proves that the answer to your question doesn't matter to you.

I'm glad you're asking questions, even if it's in dubious faith because i honestly don't think the answer matters to you. It didn't last time.

taio · Post by **taio** » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:20 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Yes, the goalposts have definitely moved in the last three years because we were told that voting Leave meant leaving the EU with a deal that would make Leaving easy and uneventful, but now we're being told the only real Brexit is a no deal Brexit. Even if you had been asking prior to the referendum, the fact that you didn't get an answer and still voted leave, and then continued to support leave even though the Tories have been pursuing a no deal brexit proves that the answer to your question doesn't matter to you.

I'm glad you're asking questions, even if it's in dubious faith because i honestly don't think the answer matters to you. It didn't last time.

I voted remain you tit.

Edit: what happens next is there will be a delay because you will frantically search my posts trying to find evidence to support your view. Only to discover I have consistently said I voted remain and therefore you won't return to acknowledge you were wrong and to retract what you said.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:29 pm

taio wrote:I voted remain you tit.

ok

taio · Post by **taio** » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:30 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote: ok

Apology accepted

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:31 pm

taio wrote:I voted remain you tit.

Edit: what happens next is there will be a delay because you will frantically search my posts trying to find evidence to support your view. Only to discover I have consistently said I voted remain and therefore you won't return to acknowledge you were wrong and to retract what you said.

Oops. you caught me in a false assumption and instead of basking in it, you immediately went and made a false assumption of your own. Damn. You were so close to having some points up on me.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:59 am

Quickenthetempo wrote:For anyone wondering if the speakers seat will be contested?

It will.

By the Green Party.

Not Farage this time? I guess it didn't go too well last time he tried that.

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:51 am

taio wrote:What do you understand Labour's position to be on single market alignment and freedom of movement?

Keeping those things on the table strengthens the government's bargaining position.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:57 am

AndrewJB wrote:Keeping those things on the table strengthens the government's bargaining position.

It would be a better deal certainly

But its not about the economy is it?

We've read the posts on here (and elsewhere) about this, and the economic hit is now worth it for the "freedom".

If only they had been honest about that in 2016 eh?

taio · Post by **taio** » Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:22 am

AndrewJB wrote:Keeping those things on the table strengthens the government's bargaining position.

Labour's position is not about preparing for further negotiation and strengthening the bargaining position. It seems they want to agree a deal on the basis we stay in the CU with close alignment to the single market. I don't see how the latter could possibly end freedom of movement which was a key reason why a majority of people voted to leave. I don't see how this against staying in the EU would represent a genuine choice particularly when considering the outcome of the referendum.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:27 am

taio wrote:Labour's position is not about preparing for further negotiation and strengthening the bargaining position. It seems they want to agree a deal on the basis we stay in the CU with close alignment to the single market. I don't see how the latter could possibly end freedom of movement which was a key reason why a majority of people voted to leave. I don't see how this against staying in the EU would represent a genuine choice particularly when considering the outcome of the referendum.

Heard this a lot (especially on here!) but are we sure the majority wanted to stop freedom of movement?

I mean, it works both ways so we lose out as well.

taio · Post by **taio** » Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:32 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Heard this a lot (especially on here!) but are we sure the majority wanted to stop freedom of movement?

I mean, it works both ways so we lose out as well.

You might not be sure which is fair enough but I feel sure it was the single biggest factor without any doubt in my mind. We wouldn't lose out under Labour because they are proposing another referendum aren't they. The issue I'm raising is about choice because staying in the EU or leaving but retaining CU and single market doesn't offer choice or align with what many of the 17.4m voted for.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:51 am

taio wrote:You might not be sure which is fair enough but I feel sure it was the single biggest factor without any doubt in my mind. We wouldn't lose out under Labour because they are proposing another referendum aren't they. The issue I'm raising is about choice because staying in the EU or leaving but retaining CU and single market doesn't offer choice or align with what many of the 17.4m voted for.

I agree that from a totally democratic and non party based perspective that if Labour agreed a CU style deal and went to a referendum they should put something like May or Johnsons deal on the table. You could argue that No Deal should also be on there as well but I think Remain / Labour Deal / Johnson Deal would be a fair choice.

Obviously voting would have to be set up in a way so it wasn't just a single vote for one of the three and the majority wins but there are easy ways of doing this.

That all said the fact that the Tory's have offered no choice to Parliament and would offer no choice to the people should they win the vote I see no problem in Labour doing things their should they get in power thus taking the Tory brexit off the table. What impact this approach has to winning / losing votes I've no idea but Labour are now clear on their policy and its up to us all decide who our vote goes to

taio · Post by **taio** » Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:55 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:I agree that from a totally democratic and non party based perspective that if Labour agreed a CU style deal and went to a referendum they should put something like May or Johnsons deal on the table. You could argue that No Deal should also be on there as well but I think Remain / Labour Deal / Johnson Deal would be a fair choice.

Obviously voting would have to be set up in a way so it wasn't just a single vote for one of the three and the majority wins but there are easy ways of doing this.

That all said the fact that the Tory's have offered no choice to Parliament and would offer no choice to the people should they win the vote I see no problem in Labour doing things their should they get in power thus taking the Tory brexit off the table. What impact this approach has to winning / losing votes I've no idea but Labour are now clear on their policy and its up to us all decide who our vote goes to

I agree with this. Just don't see how it would be right to undertake a referendum where both choices result in retaining freedom of movement. I'm not sure a general election is the right way to resolve it, or it will even resolve it.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:00 am

taio wrote:You might not be sure which is fair enough but I feel sure it was the single biggest factor without any doubt in my mind. We wouldn't lose out under Labour because they are proposing another referendum aren't they. The issue I'm raising is about choice because staying in the EU or leaving but retaining CU and single market doesn't offer choice or align with what many of the 17.4m voted for.

Chalk & cheese, the party are that split I think he'll lose votes to the other parties because no clear strategy appeals to either of the internal divisions, you'll always get the hardcore staunch fixed, but on this particular important issue he's got splinters on his bum not wanting to alienate either side.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:01 am

Jakubclaret wrote:Chalk & cheese, the party are that split I think he'll lose votes to the other parties because no clear strategy appeals to either of the internal divisions, you'll always get the hardcore staunch fixed, but on this particular important issue he's got splinters on his bum not wanting to alienate either side.

You may not agree with the strategy, but it’s pretty clear.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:02 am

taio wrote:I agree with this. Just don't see how it would be right to undertake a referendum where both choices result in retaining freedom of movement. I'm not sure a general election is the right way to resolve it, or it will even resolve it.

Im not sure there is any right way to resolve Brexit and that we ever fully will for decades to come.

Is getting a public mandate in an election that then gives some option around remain or leave any worse than a Govt who looks set to pursue an extreme version of Brexit virtually set up to crash out in 12 months should they get their mandate?

I think Labours is more balanced than the Tory or Lib Dem in their Brexit strategy (could be their downfall) but the people have the chance to decide (although I agree the election might not resolve anything and shouldn't be about such a single issue when the country is in the state it is) and we'll have to see what happens after the 12th Dec

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:09 am

martin_p wrote:You may not agree with the strategy, but it’s pretty clear.

Labour leave may not want SM the freedom of movement being the sticking point, we'll see I don't think they'll succeed convincingly in the elections & thereafter they'll be calls for him to step down & he'll be replaced, I might be wrong but I think that's what will happen. I'm not sold, predominantly voting labour most of my life to be choosing a super soft brexit that's effectively what you are looking at.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:15 am

Jakubclaret wrote:Labour leave may not want SM the freedom of movement being the sticking point, we'll see I don't think they'll succeed convincingly in the elections & thereafter they'll be calls for him to step down & he'll be replaced, I might be wrong but I think that's what will happen. I'm not sold, predominantly voting labour most of my life to be choosing a super soft brexit that's effectively what you are looking at.

Yes, a soft Brexit is what Labour are offering to put to a referendum.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:17 am

taio wrote:You might not be sure which is fair enough but I feel sure it was the single biggest factor without any doubt in my mind. We wouldn't lose out under Labour because they are proposing another referendum aren't they. The issue I'm raising is about choice because staying in the EU or leaving but retaining CU and single market doesn't offer choice or align with what many of the 17.4m voted for.

Oh not doubting it, just wondered if there was something confirming it that was all.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:18 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:Im not sure there is any right way to resolve Brexit and that we ever fully will for decades to come.

Is getting a public mandate in an election that then gives some option around remain or leave any worse than a Govt who looks set to pursue an extreme version of Brexit virtually set up to crash out in 12 months should they get their mandate?

I think Labours is more balanced than the Tory or Lib Dem in their Brexit strategy (could be their downfall) but the people have the chance to decide (although I agree the election might not resolve anything and shouldn't be about such a single issue when the country is in the state it is) and we'll have to see what happens after the 12th Dec

I think they did well to actually reach some sort of consensus on what to say to try to please everyone, but the recent interview with Rebecca Long-Bailey does show that its a surface consensus and they still are not keen at all on a 2nd ref.

Basically, if you are voting for remain as your primary reason, then you probably shouldn't be voting Labour.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:24 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:I think they did well to actually reach some sort of consensus on what to say to try to please everyone, but the recent interview with Rebecca Long-Bailey does show that its a surface consensus and they still are not keen at all on a 2nd ref.

Basically, if you are voting for remain as your primary reason, then you probably shouldn't be voting Labour.

It entirely depends on your constituency. You should be voting for the party that has the best chance of beating the Tories (apart from the Brexit Party of course). No point voting Lib Dem in my constituency as it’s a straight fight between labour and Tory. A vote for the Lib Dems could hand the seat to the Tories.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:25 am

martin_p wrote:Yes, a soft Brexit is what Labour are offering to put to a referendum.

Yes but certain people just want to leave now (god knows we've waited long enough) & don't want another referendum. Like I said I think they'll be more defections than normal & it'll benefit the other anti EU parties.

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:26 am

martin_p wrote:It entirely depends on your constituency. You should be voting for the party that has the best chance of beating the Tories (apart from the Brexit Party of course). No point voting Lib Dem in my constituency as it’s a straight fight between labour and Tory. A vote for the Lib Dems could hand the seat to the Tories.

Exactly. Under our FPTP system, if you want to stop Brexit from happening you need to make sure the Conservatives don't get a majority, and that means voting for the candidate who has the best chance of beating them in your constituency. That could be Labour, Lib Dem, SNP or even Green, depending on the seat. It means some people will have to vote for a candidate or a party they don't necessarily like, but they'll have to hold their nose and vote tactically if they're serious about remaining in the EU.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:31 am

JohnMcGreal wrote:Exactly. Under our FPTP system, if you want to stop Brexit from happening you need to make sure the Conservatives don't get a majority, and that means voting for the candidate who has the best chance of beating them in your constituency. That could be Labour, Lib Dem, SNP or even Green, depending on the seat.

There is that.

But Labour took my vote in 2017 and effectively used it as a backing of Corbynism and all the things that go with that (good and bad). Granted they have been pulled closer and closer to remain by them actually looking at the analysis of who voted for them but the recent interview with RBL (Corbyn heir apparent) suggests to me that they are perfectly capable of doing it again.

At the moment, I'll be voting labour in my Lab-Con marginal but it will only take a few car crash interviews in which the fragile Labour consensus is shown to be exactly that for that to change.

I wouldn't worry too much at the moment though, the Conservatives election campaign is off to a terrible start.

- Rees Mogg
- Bridgen
- Doctored video
- Front page Stalinism spread in the Daily Johnson

If they keep this level up, then the scales will drop from the eyes of a hell of a lot of people.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:42 am

Lancasterclaret wrote: At the moment, I'll be voting labour in my Lab-Con marginal but it will only take a few car crash interviews in which the fragile Labour consensus is shown to be exactly that for that to change.

Even if you end up handing the seats to the Tories? The Tories don’t lack consensus, any vaguely moderate MPs they had have decided it’s all to much and aren’t standing. Surely a Labour Party where the worst case seems to be a soft Brexit is better than a Tory Party where the best case is a hard Brexit?

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:44 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:There is that.

But Labour took my vote in 2017 and effectively used it as a backing of Corbynism and all the things that go with that (good and bad). Granted they have been pulled closer and closer to remain by them actually looking at the analysis of who voted for them but the recent interview with RBL (Corbyn heir apparent) suggests to me that they are perfectly capable of doing it again.

At the moment, I'll be voting labour in my Lab-Con marginal but it will only take a few car crash interviews in which the fragile Labour consensus is shown to be exactly that for that to change.

I wouldn't worry too much at the moment though, the Conservatives election campaign is off to a terrible start.

- Rees Mogg
- Bridgen
- Doctored video
- Front page Stalinism spread in the Daily Johnson

If they keep this level up, then the scales will drop from the eyes of a hell of a lot of people.

I get that. There is also the concern that in the last GE a lot of Labour votes were considered to be leave votes by some quarters.

We'll have to see what's in their manifesto, but if they're standing on a manifesto to negotiate a new deal with the EU and to put it back to the public in a referendum with remain on the ballot, I'd have no problem voting for them in this election.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:49 am

martin_p wrote:Even if you end up handing the seats to the Tories? The Tories don’t lack consensus, any vaguely moderate MPs they had have decided it’s all to much and aren’t standing. Surely a Labour Party where the worst case seems to be a soft Brexit is better than a Tory Party where the best case is a hard Brexit?

I've tactically voted for the last two elections for various reasons.

Country is still deep in the ****.

I'm not sure that either of the main parties is the one to get us out of it.

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:52 am

The real issue here is one of competence. I agree that RBL is the heir apparent, but to look at her CV she is miles short of what is needed even to be a front bencher, let alone a leader and potential PM (don’t start me on Swinson). She was a bog standard solicitor working on NHS contracts for most of her career, she has minimal political experience, minimal business experience.

Then, after competence, we get to whether objectives align with the electorate. Choosing between a socialist RBL / Corbyn view of the world, and a Johnson view of the world (he is looking like being Tory leader for 5+ years). Brexit aside, the crux appears to be whether Johnson is genuinely going to deliver for left behind communities, poorer people, strivers etc. If he does, he is clearly the best choice by a country mile, if it is all a con to get a majority, we are all stuffed.

(personally, I don’t think it is all a con, I think he is a dreamer, an idealist, and he will want to make these communities blue for a generation when he finally gives up the role, he wants to be cheered to the rafters when he walks down those high streets, though that could be naive on his part).

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:54 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:I've tactically voted for the last two elections for various reasons.

Country is still deep in the ****.

I'm not sure that either of the main parties is the one to get us out of it.

You may be right, but it will be one of the main parties leading the government after the election. So if it’s only one of those two parties that is likely to win your constituency it makes sense to vote for the one you’d prefer to see leading the government.

I’m probably in the same space as you re which party currently most closely reflects my views (certainly on Brexit), but I’m not going to let that hand a victory to the Tories in my constituency.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:57 am

CrosspoolClarets wrote:The real issue here is one of competence. I agree that RBL is the heir apparent, but to look at her CV she is miles short of what is needed even to be a front bencher, let alone a leader and potential PM (don’t start me on Swinson). She was a bog standard solicitor working on NHS contracts for most of her career, she has minimal political experience, minimal business experience.

Then, after competence, we get to whether objectives align with the electorate. Choosing between a socialist RBL / Corbyn view of the world, and a Johnson view of the world (he is looking like being Tory leader for 5+ years). Brexit aside, the crux appears to be whether Johnson is genuinely going to deliver for left behind communities, poorer people, strivers etc. If he does, he is clearly the best choice by a country mile, if it is all a con to get a majority, we are all stuffed.

(personally, I don’t think it is all a con, I think he is a dreamer, an idealist, and he will want to make these communities blue for a generation when he finally gives up the role, he wants to be cheered to the rafters when he walks down those high streets, though that could be naive on his part).

My problem with all that is that you haven't mentioned that he's a multiple proven liar.

I can understand normally political whataboutery, but under him the Tories have just abandoned that and now just lie.

I can't vote for that.

Ever.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:58 am

CrosspoolClarets wrote:The real issue here is one of competence. I agree that RBL is the heir apparent, but to look at her CV she is miles short of what is needed even to be a front bencher, let alone a leader and potential PM (don’t start me on Swinson). She was a bog standard solicitor working on NHS contracts for most of her career, she has minimal political experience, minimal business experience.

Then, after competence, we get to whether objectives align with the electorate. Choosing between a socialist RBL / Corbyn view of the world, and a Johnson view of the world (he is looking like being Tory leader for 5+ years). Brexit aside, the crux appears to be whether Johnson is genuinely going to deliver for left behind communities, poorer people, strivers etc. If he does, he is clearly the best choice by a country mile, if it is all a con to get a majority, we are all stuffed.

(personally, I don’t think it is all a con, I think he is a dreamer, an idealist, and he will want to make these communities blue for a generation when he finally gives up the role, he wants to be cheered to the rafters when he walks down those high streets, though that could be naive on his part).

Surely if he wants to be as a one nation Conservative he should remove the whip from JRM saying he is out of touch with the vast majority of people.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:00 am

martin_p wrote:You may be right, but it will be one of the main parties leading the government after the election. So if it’s only one of those two parties that is likely to win your constituency it makes sense to vote for the one you’d prefer to see leading the government.

I’m probably in the same space as you re which party currently most closely reflects my views (certainly on Brexit), but I’m not going to let that hand a victory to the Tories in my constituency.

Its a tough one

For me, the complacency of the two parties in the UK has led us to where we are today.

Thats a huge problem for me.

Why should I allow my vote be used so that they can continue?

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:02 am

Spijed wrote:Surely if he wants to be as a one nation Conservative he should remove the whip from JRM saying he is out of touch with the vast majority of people.

If there was any sign of him being a one nation Conservative all the well known one nation Conservatives wouldn’t be abandoning the party at a rate of knots!

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:08 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Its a tough one

For me, the complacency of the two parties in the UK has led us to where we are today.

Thats a huge problem for me.

Why should I allow my vote be used so that they can continue?

But surely voting for a party that won’t win your constituency is effectively doing that anyway. Granted u you’d be able, from a moral standpoint, claim that you don’t share the blame, but while we have a FPTP system a moral standpoint is all it will ever be.

I do agree somewhat with your assessment, but we have an electoral system (which helped create that complacency) that we’re stuck with for the moment so you have to use it to get the best (or more accurately least worst) outcome you can.

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:16 am

AndrewJB wrote:The Tories ARE austerity. How can Johnson absolve himself from that? And the rest of his cabinet - who are nearly all right wing loonies the lot? They can't just walk away from what they've done over the last ten years and say: "not me" - Johnson is a proven liar. Does it matter what he says anymore? He'll say anything to get elected, and then walk away from his promises like he did today.

I expect the potential damage of yesterday will have more reaction than austerity. Austerity is more or less being treated as an historical issue by the media. I expect that aiming for that issue only plays to those already safely in the Labour camp... that is not enough.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:22 am

martin_p wrote:But surely voting for a party that won’t win your constituency is effectively doing that anyway. Granted u you’d be able, from a moral standpoint, claim that you don’t share the blame, but while we have a FPTP system a moral standpoint is all it will ever be.

I do agree somewhat with your assessment, but we have an electoral system (which helped create that complacency) that we’re stuck with for the moment so you have to use it to get the best (or more accurately least worst) outcome you can.

I'd much rather we stayed in the EU.

But this election is about everything else as well.

I can't pretend that I'm comfortable at the moment with the Tories or Labour.

I'll be studying both their manifestos I think .

Mala591 · Post by **Mala591** » Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:25 am

I've never understood how anyone can even consider voting for a party that has been proven, time and time again, to be economically incompetent.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:25 am

Mala591 wrote:I've never understood how anyone can even consider voting for a party that has been proven, time and time again, to be economically incompetent.

Correct. So why do people keep voting for the Tories and Labour?

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:32 am

Mala591 wrote:I've never understood how anyone can even consider voting for a party that has been proven, time and time again, to be economically incompetent.

I thought Brexiteers had established that the economy was no longer important!