General Election Is On

This Forum is the main messageboard to discuss all things Claret and Blue and beyond
Locked
AndrewJB
Posts: 3808
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 1159 times
Has Liked: 754 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndrewJB » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:39 pm

android wrote:The main reason I am still banging on about Marxism is that whenever I have pointed out that Mcdonnell is a Marxist (nice try with the once said routine btw) people that have suggested Marxism is not bad have also claimed that I have smeared him! I just wish those that like Marxism would embrace it and own it.

Anyway, if the comrades gain power, it does not matter whether they call their change of system socialism, Marxism or communism. I prefer our capitalist system, which has been incredibly successful here and elsewhere.

Thanks to dsr and Paul Waine for quickly pointing out some of the many variables that debunk the idiotic 130k deaths claim. And I'm sure you have your reasons for maintaining that Johnson's lies matter more than Corbyn's lies but "racist" and "homophobic"? Dear oh dear, it's just not worth engaging with that.

Hopefully I can take a back seat now as the Farage announcement has taken centre stage...
Johnson is in print using "bumboys" and "piccaninies". If you can't engage with that, why should anyone else engage with the far sparser "evidence" you can muster for Corbyn's supposed anti-Semitism?

It's impossible to say exactly how many people austerity is responsible for killing: https://fullfact.org/health/130000-prev ... austerity/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; So how many do you reckon it killed? Those who have committed suicide after being found "fit for work" (a label that gets overturned thirty percent of the time on appeal)? The man who died because his electricity was cut off, and his insulin went off in his fridge? The victims of knife crime that increased as a result of cutting twenty thousand police? And what about the attendant misery austerity has caused, with food bank usage, in-work poverty, wage suppression, people forced to move away from their family and support networks because of the benefit cap, people who've had to move out of their home because their child died, and the government penalised them for having an extra room. What the Tories have done is nothing short of evil to some in our country. I shudder when I think of what some of my tax money goes to fund - like an immigration policy that pays companies to search out people to deport - and as we know, many of those have been deported wrongly. If they form the next government, and the authors of Britannia Unchained get to implement their ideas (getting the British worker to compete with Indian and Chinese workers), then things will get even worse.

We don't live in a capitalist country. We've had a mixed economy for over a hundred years (arguably longer). All Labour are looking to do is redress the balance away from the greed and rapaciousness of private ownership, and take back control, and run some sectors as public services. You describe McDonnell as though he's speaking now with restraint, but as soon as he gets into Number 11, he'll unleash his secret plan to turn Britain into East Germany. Why would he do this? Who would it be for? With the Tories we already know the answer. Johnson and the rest will say the NHS is fine and untouchable, but the fact is the people who fund the Tory Party would love to open the NHS to more private provision, because they'll make more money out of it - and the same with the rest of our public services. There is no large group of Marxists out there ready to profit from Britain becoming a communist country.
This user liked this post: longsidepies

Jakubclaret
Posts: 9434
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:47 pm
Been Liked: 1180 times
Has Liked: 778 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Jakubclaret » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:42 pm

Bfcboyo wrote:Unfortunately not. It has become a ridiculous Brexit election.
Agree, brexit as completely overshadowed the general election within itself, in my view we shouldn't be having 1 at all until after, if we ever do leave the EU, because of brexit being the number 1 overriding issue each individual political parties core principles are being neglected & cast aside, you could have voted eg labour, lib Dems all your life, but people (some) will just go with the 1s leaning towards leave or remain despite years of loyalty towards 1 party.

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by martin_p » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:45 pm

Bfcboyo wrote:Core values being a party for the majority of the working class people, a party that works for them and delivers what they want in parliment. What are you missing? I will not be led into the gallows by your questions , make your own assumptions from never never land on what I suggest . You have my answer and you no what it means.
It’s so vague I haven’t a clue what it means. Is it that the working class people want the complete deregulation of the Labour market or is it they want more privatisation of the NHS? Is that what you think Labour should stand for?

AndrewJB
Posts: 3808
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 1159 times
Has Liked: 754 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndrewJB » Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:31 am

dsr wrote:The EU free market, in terms of population, is vastly smaller than the Indian and Chinese free markets; in terms of size of economy, it is smaller than the USA free market. So it isn't the most comprehensive free market in human history. The EU is a single political entity which has free trade within its own borders, like virtually every other political entity in the world.

What they do not encourage is free trade outside their own borders. In that, they are protectionist, not free traders.
Show us twenty-eight other countries with half a billion people that are in such a comprehensive free trade deal as the EU. That's how it is the most comprehensive free trade deal in human history. The countries within the EU are all sovereign (as we know from the fact we can leave it), so it's not a single political entity.

China, the US, India, and Japan are also very protectionist - in their own ways. No country in the world will freely sign a free trade deal that allows cheap foreign imports to decimate their local economy. This is just common sense, so again you're being dishonest for pretending not to understand how trade works - assuming you do.

The EU will continue to make free trade deals around the world, that suit the EU (why make one otherwise?). Outside the EU, the UK will have to make big compromises, or struggle to make trade deals. If we had voted differently three years ago, we could take advantage of those trade deals too, and have a big say in how they're set up.

AndrewJB
Posts: 3808
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 1159 times
Has Liked: 754 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndrewJB » Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:06 am

Bfcboyo wrote:Core values being a party for the majority of the working class people, a party that works for them and delivers what they want in parliment. What are you missing? I will not be led into the gallows by your questions , make your own assumptions from never never land on what I suggest . You have my answer and you no what it means.
A party for the working class is definitely not the Tories - who receive most of their funding from the City, and have done the bidding of the City since they formed a government in 2010. Look at what they've done to workers rights since then: Increased the time you have to be in contract to two years (from one) that you can be let go for any reason. Forced workers to pay for tribunal costs. Forced down wages by capping public sector salaries. Then there's the whole austerity thing that doesn't affect the rich, but has killed poor people. Even their Brexit stance screws over the ordinary working person, because it will make certain we have a hard brexit that kills jobs. It works for the rich (who don't "work" as ordinary people do - their money works for them), but it'll hit our working class hard.

The Tories have shown time and again, they hate the north, and they hate the working class.

AndrewJB
Posts: 3808
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 1159 times
Has Liked: 754 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndrewJB » Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:55 am

https://bylinetimes.com/2019/11/09/russ ... u-to-know/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And this...

If it be your will
Posts: 2103
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:12 am
Been Liked: 500 times
Has Liked: 509 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by If it be your will » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:14 am

Bfcboyo wrote:I have only ever voted labour. This is the first time I wont as the leader is totally out of touch with historic core labour values.

I am now torn between a puppet and mirage. Personally this town being what it is will vote for Brexit and tactically I will vote with the mindless masses and vote for the Brexit Party.

A sad state of affairs voting a government in over Brexits outcome. It should have been done and dusted by now but for the sheer will of the remainers.

At least Julie Cooper will not be representing us going forwards.
I'm the exact opposite. It's the leader alone that's making me wonder what to do. McDonnell, the Labour front bench, the PLP, the Labour membership, Momentum, The Guardian...they can all hang. But (sigh), I still think Corbyn genuinely wants to make stuff better for everyone, especially those currently being ruined by life.

If only remainers had just accepted the damned result. It'd be Labour by a distance now. Failing that, if only Labour members had accepted the damned result, there'd still have been hope. But no, they just couldn't do it. Now they've got Boris and the hardest of Brexits. Nice one, Labour remainers...

Spiral
Posts: 5005
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:37 am
Been Liked: 2518 times
Has Liked: 333 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Spiral » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:17 am

dsr wrote:The EU free market, in terms of population, is vastly smaller than the Indian and Chinese free markets; in terms of size of economy, it is smaller than the USA free market. So it isn't the most comprehensive free market in human history. The EU is a single political entity which has free trade within its own borders, like virtually every other political entity in the world.

What they do not encourage is free trade outside their own borders. In that, they are protectionist, not free traders.
There's a clear distinction between a 'political union' and a 'single political entity', much in the same way there's a distinction between a matrimonial union, and two people smashing into one another at such high velocity to create a single unidentifiable biomass entity. It's frankly absurd to draw upon the internal markets of individual sovereign states to dispute the comprehensive scale of the cross border market established by the EU, especially considering the point I was making was in response to a point you raised about cross border free trade.

If the USA, or India, or China had historically erected barriers to trade on a state-by-state, province-by-province basis within their own national borders then later acted to remove those inter border barriers, you could argue, undisputed, that trade liberalisation was adopted by that, or those nations, but according to any normal understanding of the word, and indeed the context you used the word 'free trade' i.e. cross border, then no, that hasn't been implemented on the scale of the EU's single market. Ever. Even NAFTA isn't near as comprehensively integrated a bloc as the EU. All blocs are protectionist. That's the point of a bloc. A bloc wouldn't exist if it didn't bring economic advantage and leverage for its members, but that doesn't mean a bloc is inherently unwilling or incapable of advocating free trade as you suggest. The EU is a part of a globalist internationalist economic orthodoxy, and you're conflating protectionism and insularism. If the UK govt, independent of the EU, took action to prevent the UK becoming a dumping ground for cheap imports, according to your definition it'd be considered "not advocative of free trade" to slightly paraphrase your own words. Do you want the UK to become a dumping ground? Does ideological purity sound even remotely sensible in this scenario?

Spiral
Posts: 5005
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:37 am
Been Liked: 2518 times
Has Liked: 333 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Spiral » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:56 am

If it be your will wrote:I'm the exact opposite. It's the leader alone that's making me wonder what to do. McDonnell, the Labour front bench, the PLP, the Labour membership, Momentum, The Guardian...they can all hang. But (sigh), I still think Corbyn genuinely wants to make stuff better for everyone, especially those currently being ruined by life.

If only remainers had just accepted the damned result. It'd be Labour by a distance now. Failing that, if only Labour members had accepted the damned result, there'd still have been hope. But no, they just couldn't do it. Now they've got Boris and the hardest of Brexits. Nice one, Labour remainers...
A few points. Firstly, I'm not so sure an electorate swayed by enough bull$hit to demand Brexit without a plan wouldn't be equally as susceptible to being swayed by enough bull$hit to deliver a Tory govt, even a minority one, and the fact Labour have already lost three elections this decade and will probably lose again in December points towards this notion. Secondly, why on earth should anyone, let alone the opposition, and by that, sovereign parliamentarians, fall in line behind a policy they oppose? That's akin to asking Labour to 'accept', for example, cuts to policing because the Conservatives won (for all intents and purposes) in 2010 and 2015 on an austerity pledge. Thirdly, not everyone who wants change is an accelerationist, and a judgement has to be made weighing the impact of an accelerationist event (Brexit) on normal folk and the possibility for change (Lab govt) in the aftermath of that event. I think that's an immoral judgement, to condemn random citizens to severe hardship (if that's what those opposed to Brexit believe Brexit will bring) in the hope that one's ideology might take hold among the wider public, and a bit of a fantasy. Accelerationism is ugly, trampling over too many people and bearing unforeseeable consequence. And lastly, if we get no-deal Brexit it will be because the conservatives and other pro-Brexit groups and individuals contrived to make just that happen.

AndyClaret
Posts: 1349
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:08 pm
Been Liked: 217 times
Has Liked: 543 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndyClaret » Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:33 am

Lib Dem candidate steps down over racist and homophobic tweets

The Liberal Democrat candidate for Thurrock in Essex has stood down after being accused of posting racist and homophobic tweets 10 years ago.

Screenshots purporting to show Kevin McNamara social media comments have been circulating, prompting his resignation.

Mr McNamara said he was "deeply sorry for the comments that I made".

A Liberal Democrat spokesperson said: "A disciplinary process has been instigated."

The tweets are said to have been posted in 2009 and 2010 and allegedly include racist and homophobic language.

Mr McNamara, who came fourth in Thurrock in the 2017 election, said: "These words are deeply offensive and I apologise profusely to everybody that I have offended with these tweets.

"I would never want to undermine the voices of those communities with slurs or degradation and it's important that people who want to represent the public are held to the very highest standard.

"I am resigning as a candidate with immediate effect for the upcoming election. I apologise to all of those I have let down with my past conduct and will work hard to regain their trust."

Mr McNamara is as an honorary vice-president of the Liberal Democrat Campaign for Race Equality and came fifth in the election for the Essex police and crime commissioner in 2016.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-e ... ce=twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by martin_p » Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:41 am

AndyClaret wrote:Lib Dem candidate steps down over racist and homophobic tweets

The Liberal Democrat candidate for Thurrock in Essex has stood down after being accused of posting racist and homophobic tweets 10 years ago.

Screenshots purporting to show Kevin McNamara social media comments have been circulating, prompting his resignation.

Mr McNamara said he was "deeply sorry for the comments that I made".

A Liberal Democrat spokesperson said: "A disciplinary process has been instigated."

The tweets are said to have been posted in 2009 and 2010 and allegedly include racist and homophobic language.

Mr McNamara, who came fourth in Thurrock in the 2017 election, said: "These words are deeply offensive and I apologise profusely to everybody that I have offended with these tweets.

"I would never want to undermine the voices of those communities with slurs or degradation and it's important that people who want to represent the public are held to the very highest standard.

"I am resigning as a candidate with immediate effect for the upcoming election. I apologise to all of those I have let down with my past conduct and will work hard to regain their trust."

Mr McNamara is as an honorary vice-president of the Liberal Democrat Campaign for Race Equality and came fifth in the election for the Essex police and crime commissioner in 2016.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-e ... ce=twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So much for your quest for ‘balance’ Andy.

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:45 am

dsr wrote:The EU free market, in terms of population, is vastly smaller than the Indian and Chinese free markets; in terms of size of economy, it is smaller than the USA free market. So it isn't the most comprehensive free market in human history. The EU is a single political entity which has free trade within its own borders, like virtually every other political entity in the world.

What they do not encourage is free trade outside their own borders. In that, they are protectionist, not free traders.
Every country/trade organisation in the world is exactly that.

Thats why countries are in trading blocks.

Because in trade, the size of the market is key.

We are a big market, but are we a bigger market than the EU?

Are we chuff

You are so bad at this its untrue.

AndrewJB
Posts: 3808
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 1159 times
Has Liked: 754 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndrewJB » Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:48 am

AndyClaret wrote:Lib Dem candidate steps down over racist and homophobic tweets

The Liberal Democrat candidate for Thurrock in Essex has stood down after being accused of posting racist and homophobic tweets 10 years ago.

Screenshots purporting to show Kevin McNamara social media comments have been circulating, prompting his resignation.

Mr McNamara said he was "deeply sorry for the comments that I made".

A Liberal Democrat spokesperson said: "A disciplinary process has been instigated."

The tweets are said to have been posted in 2009 and 2010 and allegedly include racist and homophobic language.

Mr McNamara, who came fourth in Thurrock in the 2017 election, said: "These words are deeply offensive and I apologise profusely to everybody that I have offended with these tweets.

"I would never want to undermine the voices of those communities with slurs or degradation and it's important that people who want to represent the public are held to the very highest standard.

"I am resigning as a candidate with immediate effect for the upcoming election. I apologise to all of those I have let down with my past conduct and will work hard to regain their trust."

Mr McNamara is as an honorary vice-president of the Liberal Democrat Campaign for Race Equality and came fifth in the election for the Essex police and crime commissioner in 2016.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-e ... ce=twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Johnson has printed racist and homophobic slurs in the Telegraph. Why won’t he resign?

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:52 am

If it be your will wrote:I'm the exact opposite. It's the leader alone that's making me wonder what to do. McDonnell, the Labour front bench, the PLP, the Labour membership, Momentum, The Guardian...they can all hang. But (sigh), I still think Corbyn genuinely wants to make stuff better for everyone, especially those currently being ruined by life.

If only remainers had just accepted the damned result. It'd be Labour by a distance now. Failing that, if only Labour members had accepted the damned result, there'd still have been hope. But no, they just couldn't do it. Now they've got Boris and the hardest of Brexits. Nice one, Labour remainers...
This post sums up Corbynistas to a tee.

Everything else is wrong.

Not Corbyn though, its everything else.

If labour get badly beaten in this election, I do worry that people still won't realise.

(I hope they do well, simply because I think Corbyn is a better bet than Johnston, but that is because both are totally ****, but at least Corbyn isn't a right wing ****)

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by martin_p » Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:52 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Every country/trade organisation in the world is exactly that.

Thats why countries are in trading blocks.

Because in trade, the size of the market is key.

We are a big market, but are we a bigger market than the EU?

Are we chuff

You are so bad at this its untrue.
Don’t forget, dsr thinks that food producers in the US are going to produce food to our standards for export to us and their standards for their own internal market, so you his thinking on what trade deals entail has already proved ridiculous.

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:59 am

martin_p wrote:Don’t forget, dsr thinks that food producers in the US are going to produce food to our standards for export to us and their standards for their own internal market, so you his thinking on what trade deals entail has already proved ridiculous.
I don't have a problem with his free trade mantra, but its based on a very 19th century way of looking at things.

And then, if we couldn't flood the market with our goods, we just blew stuff up with the navy.

No country is going to sign a free trade agreement with us unless we give in on stuff, and that stuff we give in on will result in job losses.

Have a completely wild guess which regions of the UK will be affected by that the most?

AndyClaret
Posts: 1349
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:08 pm
Been Liked: 217 times
Has Liked: 543 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndyClaret » Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:20 am

After the Jewish Council urged Jews not to vote for Labour, it's the Hindu's turn now.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50382791" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AndyClaret
Posts: 1349
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:08 pm
Been Liked: 217 times
Has Liked: 543 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndyClaret » Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:21 am

martin_p wrote:So much for your quest for ‘balance’ Andy.
There's only me offering "balance" from all the left wingers on here, lets face it, you won't be providing it will you.

TheFamilyCat
Posts: 10843
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:56 pm
Been Liked: 5521 times
Has Liked: 208 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by TheFamilyCat » Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:40 am

Farage now saying Tories should stand down in Labour seats. Can't see it happening but he's obviously realised that if they don't, he'll win no seats and have no say in anything going forward. He needs to be in a coalition to have any influence after the election.

Jakubclaret
Posts: 9434
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:47 pm
Been Liked: 1180 times
Has Liked: 778 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Jakubclaret » Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:41 am

If it be your will wrote:I'm the exact opposite. It's the leader alone that's making me wonder what to do. McDonnell, the Labour front bench, the PLP, the Labour membership, Momentum, The Guardian...they can all hang. But (sigh), I still think Corbyn genuinely wants to make stuff better for everyone, especially those currently being ruined by life.

If only remainers had just accepted the damned result. It'd be Labour by a distance now. Failing that, if only Labour members had accepted the damned result, there'd still have been hope. But no, they just couldn't do it. Now they've got Boris and the hardest of Brexits. Nice one, Labour remainers...
It would be, labours divide & the stance will be ultimately the defeat, I personally don't mind Corbyn & agree he's genuinely wants to "make stuff better for everyone" if labours position was different with the acceptance on the remain side I think they'd be streets ahead now, the average working class man votes labour all day long but now faces a difficult choice & maybe 1 he'll never have make again in his lifetime.

claret2018
Posts: 2043
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:49 pm
Been Liked: 801 times
Has Liked: 26 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by claret2018 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:52 am

Anyone now who thinks Johnson will make a better PM than Corbyn is either very wealthy and greedy, wilfully thick, or gullible enough to believe everything The Sun tells them.

IMO, of course.

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by martin_p » Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:52 am

AndyClaret wrote:There's only me offering "balance" from all the left wingers on here, lets face it, you won't be providing it will you.
I’m not linking every story about a candidate under pressure for alleged misdemeanours. It’s pointless and boring.

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by martin_p » Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:57 am

TheFamilyCat wrote:Farage now saying Tories should stand down in Labour seats. Can't see it happening but he's obviously realised that if they don't, he'll win no seats and have no say in anything going forward. He needs to be in a coalition to have any influence after the election.
Farage wasn’t going to win any seats anyway. That’s why he decided not to run himself. His climb down has confirmed him and his party as an irrelevance now, he won’t be getting any concessions from the Tories as that already have what they want. It’s ironic coming from the man who told us that the threat of no deal was the only way of getting a good Brexit deal. He’s given up his version of no deal (I.e. running in every seat) and now expects to get something from the Tories. Turns out he talks a better negotiation than he practices!

Firthy
Posts: 4966
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:04 am
Been Liked: 1607 times
Has Liked: 275 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Firthy » Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:58 am

claret2018 wrote:Anyone now who thinks Johnson will make a better PM than Corbyn is either very wealthy and greedy, wilfully thick, or gullible enough to believe everything The Sun tells them.

IMO, of course.
Anyone would make a better PM than Corbyn, well except maybe Johm McDonnell :o :lol:

Mala591
Posts: 1887
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:02 pm
Been Liked: 681 times
Has Liked: 428 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Mala591 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:21 am

martin_p wrote:Farage wasn’t going to win any seats anyway. That’s why he decided not to run himself. His climb down has confirmed him and his party as an irrelevance now, he won’t be getting any concessions from the Tories as that already have what they want. It’s ironic coming from the man who told us that the threat of no deal was the only way of getting a good Brexit deal. He’s given up his version of no deal (I.e. running in every seat) and now expects to get something from the Tories. Turns out he talks a better negotiation than he practices!
Farage should identify 10-20 Labour held seats which the Brexit party would have the best chance of winning and ask Johnson to stand down the Conservative candidate in those seats. In return Farage would then stand down the BP candidates from all other seats.

Rick_Muller
Posts: 6092
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:53 am
Been Liked: 2619 times
Has Liked: 6419 times
Location: -90.000000, 0.000000

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Rick_Muller » Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:37 am

Boris' Russian friends no doubt...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50388879" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:05 am

AndyClaret wrote:There's only me offering "balance" from all the left wingers on here, lets face it, you won't be providing it will you.
Everyone is more to the left than you Andy.

tiger76
Posts: 25697
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:43 pm
Been Liked: 4644 times
Has Liked: 9849 times
Location: Glasgow

Re: General Election Is On

Post by tiger76 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:07 am

Rick_Muller wrote:Boris' Russian friends no doubt...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50388879" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Hillary questioning why this Russia report hasn't been made public.so much for accountability,it has formal security clearance so it does make you wonder what it contains that the government want to keep supressed until after the election.https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50382668

Now this maybe totally unrelated but a cyber-attack on Labour's digital platforms occurred this morning.https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50382668

AndyClaret
Posts: 1349
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:08 pm
Been Liked: 217 times
Has Liked: 543 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndyClaret » Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:26 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Everyone is more to the left than you Andy.
not really.

Rick_Muller
Posts: 6092
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:53 am
Been Liked: 2619 times
Has Liked: 6419 times
Location: -90.000000, 0.000000

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Rick_Muller » Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:27 am

tiger76 wrote:Hillary questioning why this Russia report hasn't been made public.so much for accountability,it has formal security clearance so it does make you wonder what it contains that the government want to keep supressed until after the election.https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50382668

Now this maybe totally unrelated but a cyber-attack on Labour's digital platforms occurred this morning.https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50382668
the funny thing is that on my BBC homepage the headline is about Sterling and Gomez... the real story about election interference is a small icon to the side. When you consider that the BBC "accidentally" used footage for Boris from 2016 when he didn't look drunk and didn't have the wreath upside down you do start to question impartiality.

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:28 am

AndyClaret wrote:not really.
Yeah sorry

Everyone except Ringo

android
Posts: 670
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:01 am
Been Liked: 119 times
Has Liked: 43 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by android » Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:41 am

AndrewJB wrote:Johnson is in print using "bumboys" and "piccaninies". If you can't engage with that, why should anyone else engage with the far sparser "evidence" you can muster for Corbyn's supposed anti-Semitism?

It's impossible to say exactly how many people austerity is responsible for killing: https://fullfact.org/health/130000-prev ... austerity/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; So how many do you reckon it killed? Those who have committed suicide after being found "fit for work" (a label that gets overturned thirty percent of the time on appeal)? The man who died because his electricity was cut off, and his insulin went off in his fridge? The victims of knife crime that increased as a result of cutting twenty thousand police? And what about the attendant misery austerity has caused, with food bank usage, in-work poverty, wage suppression, people forced to move away from their family and support networks because of the benefit cap, people who've had to move out of their home because their child died, and the government penalised them for having an extra room. What the Tories have done is nothing short of evil to some in our country. I shudder when I think of what some of my tax money goes to fund - like an immigration policy that pays companies to search out people to deport - and as we know, many of those have been deported wrongly. If they form the next government, and the authors of Britannia Unchained get to implement their ideas (getting the British worker to compete with Indian and Chinese workers), then things will get even worse.

We don't live in a capitalist country. We've had a mixed economy for over a hundred years (arguably longer). All Labour are looking to do is redress the balance away from the greed and rapaciousness of private ownership, and take back control, and run some sectors as public services. You describe McDonnell as though he's speaking now with restraint, but as soon as he gets into Number 11, he'll unleash his secret plan to turn Britain into East Germany. Why would he do this? Who would it be for? With the Tories we already know the answer. Johnson and the rest will say the NHS is fine and untouchable, but the fact is the people who fund the Tory Party would love to open the NHS to more private provision, because they'll make more money out of it - and the same with the rest of our public services. There is no large group of Marxists out there ready to profit from Britain becoming a communist country.
At least the nonsense 130,000 austerity deaths claim has been retracted - but you are not dsr so it was fine to state it as fact the other day.

As for the racist, homophobe, anti-Semite stuff, you have pressed me to engage a little. I suppose it is true that gay people and black people are living in fear of a Johnson government and Jewish people are looking forward to a Corbyn government. Any suggestion to the contrary would be Daily Mail or Murdoch fiction. You get a little insight into that by the disgraceful way Johnson treats the black, Asian and gay MPs in his cabinet and the wider party. Compare that to the sympathetic way Corbyn has treated Jewish MPs in the Labour party.

You have sort of answered your own questions in your third paragraph with what you said in your second paragraph. Sadly, envy, hatred and ill conceived revenge are motivating factors for many on the far left.

IIBYW patiently tried to explain to you Corbyn's views on the EU but you wouldn't accept it even from a fellow Corbyn supporter so I know you are not going to listen to me. You are now even suggesting that northern Tories hate the north and working class Tories hate the working class. Your posts are so far detached from reality now that I do think it is a waste of both our times to continue with direct engagement. I find it hard to believe that I once said that I would be happy for you to teach my children. I have changed my mind on that but I hope sometime after the election a more reasonable AJB returns!

AndyClaret
Posts: 1349
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:08 pm
Been Liked: 217 times
Has Liked: 543 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndyClaret » Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:46 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Yeah sorry

Everyone except Ringo
Ringo is ex Labour, i'm in a trade union, neither of us are right wing.
This user liked this post: RingoMcCartney

Cryssys
Posts: 468
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:47 pm
Been Liked: 141 times
Has Liked: 28 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Cryssys » Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:53 am

tiger76 wrote:Hillary questioning why this Russia report hasn't been made public.so much for accountability,it has formal security clearance so it does make you wonder what it contains that the government want to keep supressed until after the election.https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50382668

Now this maybe totally unrelated but a cyber-attack on Labour's digital platforms occurred this morning.https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50382668
Why do the Russians want to influence our elections? Why are they supporting a right wing party rather than a left wing party which, in theory, they should be ideologically closer to? Why would they want to see us leave the EU?

The answer is because they believe it is in their best interests to do so. Because anything that increases division, discontent and weakness in Europe, NATO or the USA is a good thing from their perspective.

On that basis they support the policies and politicians that are most likely to provide the outcomes they crave.

Go Figure.

randomclaret2
Posts: 6880
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:04 pm
Been Liked: 2742 times
Has Liked: 4314 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by randomclaret2 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:56 am

Would that be the foreign politician Hilary Clinton meddling in our election, or a different one ? Of course she has never been involved in the politics or elections of any other country other than the US ever has she ?

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:59 am

AndyClaret wrote:Ringo is ex Labour, i'm in a trade union, neither of us are right wing.
This is a hot take.

No doubt about it.
This user liked this post: fatboy47

Cryssys
Posts: 468
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:47 pm
Been Liked: 141 times
Has Liked: 28 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Cryssys » Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:02 pm

randomclaret2 wrote:Would that be the foreign politician Hilary Clinton meddling in our election, or a different one ? Of course she has never been involved in the politics or elections of any other country other than the US ever has she ?

Is that the best you can do? Try to deflect rather than address the issue.

Cryssys
Posts: 468
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:47 pm
Been Liked: 141 times
Has Liked: 28 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Cryssys » Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:06 pm

randomclaret2 wrote:Would that be the foreign politician Hilary Clinton meddling in our election, or a different one ? Of course she has never been involved in the politics or elections of any other country other than the US ever has she ?
A very poor effort. You keep sticking your head in the sand if you like, but remember that all the time you're doing that you're backside is stuck up in the air and just asking to be kicked.
This user liked this post: Rick_Muller

randomclaret2
Posts: 6880
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:04 pm
Been Liked: 2742 times
Has Liked: 4314 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by randomclaret2 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:07 pm

Im not trying to deflect anything .Im pointing out Clinton's hypocritical comments.How can anyone who has been involved in any US administration bleat about foreign interence in other countries elections ? How many coups, assassinations and regime changes have they been involved with ?

Cryssys
Posts: 468
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:47 pm
Been Liked: 141 times
Has Liked: 28 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Cryssys » Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:10 pm

randomclaret2 wrote:Im not trying to deflect anything .Im pointing out Clinton's hypocritical comments.How can anyone who has been involved in any US administration bleat about foreign interence in other countries elections ? How many coups, assasintions and regime changes have they been involved with ?

If you are not trying to deflect then why don't you address the question I was asking.

Why do you think the Russians have chosen to support the policies and politicians that they have?

randomclaret2
Posts: 6880
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:04 pm
Been Liked: 2742 times
Has Liked: 4314 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by randomclaret2 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:12 pm

Which policies and politicians have they chosen to support ?

AndyClaret
Posts: 1349
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:08 pm
Been Liked: 217 times
Has Liked: 543 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndyClaret » Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:14 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:This is a hot take.

No doubt about it.
The truth hurts.
This user liked this post: RingoMcCartney

Damo
Posts: 4505
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:04 pm
Been Liked: 1777 times
Has Liked: 2761 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Damo » Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:20 pm

It's amazing how many of these far left people bleating on about austerity, yet can seemingly afford to spend hundreds of pounds on tinfoil each month
This user liked this post: AndyClaret

Devils_Advocate
Posts: 12345
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:43 pm
Been Liked: 5202 times
Has Liked: 920 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Devils_Advocate » Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:26 pm

Damo wrote:It's amazing how many of these far left people bleating on about austerity, yet can seemingly afford to spend hundreds of pounds on tinfoil each month
be careful not to confuse that those bleating on about austerity are necessarily the ones who it impacts the most. There's not much in it but financially I would probably be better off under a Tory govt but a slight financial gain for me is not worth the impact a Tory govt has on the people at the bottom of society who are most desperate and in need.
These 3 users liked this post: Lancasterclaret Rick_Muller longsidepies

If it be your will
Posts: 2103
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:12 am
Been Liked: 500 times
Has Liked: 509 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by If it be your will » Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:28 pm

Spiral wrote:A few points. Firstly, I'm not so sure an electorate swayed by enough bull$hit to demand Brexit without a plan wouldn't be equally as susceptible to being swayed by enough bull$hit to deliver a Tory govt, even a minority one, and the fact Labour have already lost three elections this decade and will probably lose again in December points towards this notion. Secondly, why on earth should anyone, let alone the opposition, and by that, sovereign parliamentarians, fall in line behind a policy they oppose? That's akin to asking Labour to 'accept', for example, cuts to policing because the Conservatives won (for all intents and purposes) in 2010 and 2015 on an austerity pledge. Thirdly, not everyone who wants change is an accelerationist, and a judgement has to be made weighing the impact of an accelerationist event (Brexit) on normal folk and the possibility for change (Lab govt) in the aftermath of that event. I think that's an immoral judgement, to condemn random citizens to severe hardship (if that's what those opposed to Brexit believe Brexit will bring) in the hope that one's ideology might take hold among the wider public, and a bit of a fantasy. Accelerationism is ugly, trampling over too many people and bearing unforeseeable consequence. And lastly, if we get no-deal Brexit it will be because the conservatives and other pro-Brexit groups and individuals contrived to make just that happen.
Because on Brexit there was a referendum, a referendum which received widespread support by all parties, including the Greens and Lib Dems (at least until the result was delivered). That's why it's different.

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:33 pm

If it be your will wrote:Because on Brexit there was a referendum, a referendum which received widespread support by all parties, including the Greens and Lib Dems (at least until the result was delivered). That's why it's different.
But if this election doesn't give clarity, will you accept that two parliamentary elections show that an advisory referendum in 2016 shouldn't perhaps run the whole country till the end of time?

If it be your will
Posts: 2103
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:12 am
Been Liked: 500 times
Has Liked: 509 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by If it be your will » Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:33 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:This post sums up Corbynistas to a tee.

Everything else is wrong.

Not Corbyn though, its everything else.

If labour get badly beaten in this election, I do worry that people still won't realise.

(I hope they do well, simply because I think Corbyn is a better bet than Johnston, but that is because both are totally ****, but at least Corbyn isn't a right wing ****)
(I know it won't register, because it never does, but here goes anyway...)

I think Corbyn's performance since the Euro elections has been absolutely woeful. There you go. It's right there.

If it be your will
Posts: 2103
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:12 am
Been Liked: 500 times
Has Liked: 509 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by If it be your will » Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:35 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:But if this election doesn't give clarity, will you accept that two parliamentary elections show that an advisory referendum in 2016 shouldn't perhaps run the whole country till the end of time?
I see we're still using the But it was only 'advisory' argument. Come on.

Spijed
Posts: 17112
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:33 pm
Been Liked: 2892 times
Has Liked: 1294 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Spijed » Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:42 pm

If it be your will wrote:(I know it won't register, because it never does, but here goes anyway...)

I think Corbyn's performance since the Euro elections has been absolutely woeful. There you go. It's right there.
Going to be very interesting as to how the TV debates go.

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:42 pm

If it be your will wrote:I see we're still using the But it was only 'advisory' argument. Come on.
Are we a parliamentary democracy or not?

If this election is another hung parliament, then what will that tell you?

(I'm still firmly of the belief that the referendum result needs to be honoured, but we've had three years of people trying to push through their hardest possible option through. Parliament said no repeatedly, in 2017 the population said no, and the current government refuse to consider a softer, more compromising Brexit. We are flat out of ways out of this if this GE fails)
Last edited by Lancasterclaret on Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Locked