General Election Is On

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TheFamilyCat
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by TheFamilyCat » Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:44 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:be careful not to confuse that those bleating on about austerity are necessarily the ones who it impacts the most. There's not much in it but financially I would probably be better off under a Tory govt but a slight financial gain for me is not worth the impact a Tory govt has on the people at the bottom of society who are most desperate and in need.
Don't worry about those at the bottom, Ringo's looking after them.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by If it be your will » Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:50 pm

Spijed wrote:Going to be very interesting as to how the TV debates go.
It'll be an interesting test as to just how bad Boris is in head to head debates, because considering the ludicrousness of Labour's positioning over the last few months, I feel even I could wipe the floor with Corbyn!

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Burnley Ace » Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:52 pm

Cryssys wrote:If you are not trying to deflect then why don't you address the question I was asking.

Why do you think the Russians have chosen to support the policies and politicians that they have?
Presumably because they want a weaker EU but we keep getting told that the EU won’t be weaker without us.

You would have thought that they would want a PM like Corbyn who is “sympathetic” towards Iran and wouldn’t interfere with their Middle East policy

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by dsr » Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:56 pm

Cryssys wrote:Why do the Russians want to influence our elections? Why are they supporting a right wing party rather than a left wing party which, in theory, they should be ideologically closer to? Why would they want to see us leave the EU?

The answer is because they believe it is in their best interests to do so. Because anything that increases division, discontent and weakness in Europe, NATO or the USA is a good thing from their perspective.

On that basis they support the policies and politicians that are most likely to provide the outcomes they crave.

Go Figure.
There's already discontent in the EU. If the Russians want to stir up trouble, thjey'll be supporting Corbyn because he is anti-NATO.

If the Russians have been held back from military action in certain theatres over the last 70 years, it's much more down to fear of NATO rather than the EU. They would be all for Corbyn's anti-defence policies.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:09 pm

I'm shocked

Shocked that people who have spread every single lie they have picked up over the past three years from the internet about the EU are saying its nothing to do with Russian influence.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Cryssys » Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:19 pm

randomclaret2 wrote:Which policies and politicians have they chosen to support ?

Policies: Brexit

Politicians: Boris Johnson and Donald Trump

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_i ... _elections" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_i ... referendum" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/dark-m ... y-funding/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Cryssys » Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:20 pm

dsr wrote:There's already discontent in the EU. If the Russians want to stir up trouble, thjey'll be supporting Corbyn because he is anti-NATO.

If the Russians have been held back from military action in certain theatres over the last 70 years, it's much more down to fear of NATO rather than the EU. They would be all for Corbyn's anti-defence policies.

Yet they choose to support the Conservatives rather than Labour. Why do you think that is?

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by RingoMcCartney » Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:29 pm

AndyClaret wrote:Ringo is ex Labour, i'm in a trade union, neither of us are right wing.
Some europhiles believe its impossible to be , on many issues , left leaning , and be eurosceptic.


It is.

Till he's had his arm bent up his back, Jeremy Corbyn has been throughout his political life.......

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Cryssys » Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:42 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:Presumably because they want a weaker EU but we keep getting told that the EU won’t be weaker without us.

You would have thought that they would want a PM like Corbyn who is “sympathetic” towards Iran and wouldn’t interfere with their Middle East policy

Yet they choose to support the Conservatives rather than Labour. Why do you think that is?

The UK is just one brick in the wall. What makes you think the Russians aren't sowing discontent elsewhere in the EU? There is evidence that they are supporting the various right wing euro sceptic EU parties that have sprung up in recent years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2 ... _relations" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by aggi » Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:43 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:Some europhiles believe its impossible to be , on many issues , left leaning , and be eurosceptic.


It is.

Till he's had his arm bent up his back, Jeremy Corbyn has been throughout his political life.......
I have to agree with Ringo here, there's a lot of mingling between Brexit and the right wing and they can be viewed separately. I suspect in part it's due to how Brexit and immigration have been linked.

Obviously it's not possible to be left leaning and vote for a party headed by Johnson or Farage as some such as ClaretAndy seem to be planning but that's a different matter.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by randomclaret2 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:57 pm

So Russia is working to undermine a man who has campaigned against NATO and Britain's Nuclear Deterrant all his political life ?

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:05 pm

randomclaret2 wrote:So Russia is working to undermine a man who has campaigned against NATO and Britain's Nuclear Deterrant all his political life ?
Only one question to you reality deniers lads

Why did the Conservative Government not release the report if its clear that it shows Russia backs Corbyn?

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Cryssys » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:10 pm

randomclaret2 wrote:So Russia is working to undermine a man who has campaigned against NATO and Britain's Nuclear Deterrant all his political life ?
Yes.

I'll ask you the same question I asked dsr and Burnley Ace. Why are they supporting the Conservatives rather than Labour?

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Devils_Advocate » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:20 pm

Just checking here cos I must have read something wrong but have we really got a poster who thinks Russia is more aligned to Corbyn and does not think that Trump, Johnson and Farage are colluding and in bed with Putin in some form or another?
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Cryssys » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:38 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Just checking here cos I must have read something wrong but have we really got a poster who thinks Russia is more aligned to Corbyn and does not think that Trump, Johnson and Farage are colluding and in bed with Putin in some form or another?
There's more than one of them unfortunately. Can you imagine the reaction from our resident Tories if it had been revealed that the Labour Party campaign was being funded by Russian money?

The Mail, Express and the Telegraph would be having a field day. Hypocrisy of the highest order.

Hypocrisy, noun: the practice of claiming to have higher standards or more noble beliefs than is the case.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Devils_Advocate » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:48 pm

Cryssys wrote:There's more than one of them unfortunately. Can you imagine the reaction from our resident Tories if it had been revealed that the Labour Party campaign was being funded by Russian money?

The Mail, Express and the Telegraph would be having a field day. Hypocrisy of the highest order.

Hypocrisy, noun: the practice of claiming to have higher standards or more noble beliefs than is the case.
I can just about comprehend the denial through ignorance or just not wanting to know the truth because of brainwashed tribalism but to actually believe that Corbyn is some kind of Putin puppet is shocking.

To think that some of these Brexit morons get upset at being labelled thick idiots who dont really understand what they are talking about
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Rick_Muller » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:49 pm

Cryssys wrote:Yes.

I'll ask you the same question I asked dsr and Burnley Ace. Why are they supporting the Conservatives rather than Labour?
the conspiracy theorist in me says to destabilise the west... well, you did ask

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Cryssys » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:58 pm

Rick_Muller wrote:the conspiracy theorist in me says to destabilise the west... well, you did ask

Thanks Rick ;)

Wonder if the pennies dropped with dsr, randomclaret2 and Burnley Ace yet. Their silence on the subject is deafening.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by dsr » Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:09 pm

Cryssys wrote:Thanks Rick ;)

Wonder if the pennies dropped with dsr, randomclaret2 and Burnley Ace yet. Their silence on the subject is deafening.
I didn't think it was proved that the Tories' campaign for the current election had been funded by Russia. Because logically they would be more likely to support Corbyn. If we take it as given that you do have detailed knowledge of the funding of the current campaigns, why are the Russians funding the Tories, and not going after NATO?

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Rick_Muller » Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:15 pm

dsr wrote:I didn't think it was proved that the Tories' campaign for the current election had been funded by Russia. Because logically they would be more likely to support Corbyn. If we take it as given that you do have detailed knowledge of the funding of the current campaigns, why are the Russians funding the Tories, and not going after NATO?
I would argue the oligarchs of Russia are more aligned politically to Trump; Boris and Farage than the traditional Russian "commie" type such as Corbyn

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Spiral » Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:17 pm

Farage won't be releasing a manifesto. The first excuse for not having a manifesto: "we're six weeks old," an excuse repeated verbatim by Farage, BXP MEPs/prospective MEPs and affiliates well into the seventh, eighth, and ninth week of its existence, has been downgraded to "that was a joke." Farage, apparently incapable of sincerity or coherence, says manifestos 'equate to a lie', and in doing what any conman worth his salt would do, capturing the language used to highlight his obvious pitfalls (of which there are many) and turning it against journalists and his critics, seems to be insulting the intelligence of voters. Are people truly willing to publicly admit support for this party, in spite of this? For your own good, never rationalise away a person's behaviours. Don't be a mug, take their words and actions at face value. Treat Farage as you would a shifty car salesman and you'll be better insulated from his bull$hit. Otherwise, you're allowing yourself to become a willing and disposable means to his ambition and wealth.
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Spiral » Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:27 pm

Rick_Muller wrote:I would argue the oligarchs of Russia are more aligned politically to Trump; Boris and Farage than the traditional Russian "commie" type such as Corbyn
Wait, are you telling me people who exploited their position in an establishment to unscrupulously acquire and hoard vast wealth would align with other people who also exploited their position in an establishment to unscrupulously acquire and hoard vast wealth? My mind is blown!
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Cryssys » Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:30 pm

dsr wrote:why are the Russians funding the Tories, and not going after NATO?
Why are you asking me the question that I asked you?

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by martin_p » Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:15 pm

AndyClaret wrote:Ringo is ex Labour, i'm in a trade union, neither of us are right wing.
I’m surprised Wrongo hasn’t corrected you on this yet. ‘Paul from Burnley’ being a life long Labour supporter was a ruse to get on the radio. Surely you’re not saying Wrongo is lying?

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Damo » Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:40 pm

Is there any evidence that Russia are funding the tories, or are we just taking the aluminium foil milliner, Cryssys word for it?

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Spijed » Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:41 pm

Damo wrote:Is there any evidence that Russia are funding the tories, or are we just taking the aluminium foil milliner, Cryssys word for it?
If they aren't then why won't the government publish the report?

If Boris Johnson has nothing to hide....
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Spijed » Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:42 pm

Meanwhile....

Why isn't a single government minister in the regions that have been flooded?

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:42 pm

Damo wrote:Is there any evidence that Russia are funding the tories, or are we just taking the aluminium foil milliner, Cryssys word for it?
If it implicated Labour, the Conservatives would have released the report on Russian interference.

if it implicated the Conservatives, or raised questions on the legitimacy of the 2016 Brexit vote (for example, other votes are available but apparently don't count as much) then they won't release it.

They haven't released it.

I'm out of tin foil, but I don't think its a stretch to guess that whatever is in it is not good for Johnson and the Conservatives.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Damo » Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:48 pm

Is there any evidence or not?
It was a fairly simple question

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:50 pm

Damo wrote:Is there any evidence or not?
It was a fairly simple question
Its in the report, which the Conservative government didn't release, despite it being cleared by everyone for release about two months ago.

Look Damo, you've always been sound on here, but alarm bells must be ringing about stuff like this?

The papers are reporting that nine Russian oligarchs (and to be an oligarch, you have to be in cahoots with Putin) are the biggest donors to the Conservative Party.
Last edited by Lancasterclaret on Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Spijed » Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:50 pm

Damo wrote:Is there any evidence or not?
It was a fairly simple question
There must be otherwise the Conservatives would have published the report already.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by martin_p » Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:51 pm

And let’s not forget Brexit Party MEPs voting against EU investigations into Russian dis-information. No, nothing to see here.
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Damo » Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:52 pm

Is that a no then?
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:55 pm

Damo wrote:Is that a no then?
This is your Ringo moment!

Enjoy it and savour it!
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by JohnMcGreal » Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:56 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:The papers are reporting that nine Russian oligarchs (and to be an oligarch, you have to be in cahoots with Putin) are the biggest donors to the Conservative Party.
That famously left wing, hysterical newspaper, The Times.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Devils_Advocate » Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:01 pm

Damo wrote:Is that a no then?
What would you consider sufficient evidence as this is important? There is no point people spending time searching and highlighting reports if no matter what is provided you will find a way to dismiss it.

I think a good litmus test for evidence would be would you consider it evidence if it was the opposite side or would you still dismiss it.

Anyway are the Tories be funded by the Russians. A 2 min search brought be back this report from the Gaurdian about Russian donor and for those who dont like the articles author this story was equally covered by the Tory Telegraph and the Financial Times but these are behind paywalls

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -extremism

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Damo » Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:06 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:What would you consider sufficient evidence as this is important? There is no point people spending time searching and highlighting reports if no matter what is provided you will find a way to dismiss it.

I think a good litmus test for evidence would be would you consider it evidence if it was the opposite side or would you still dismiss it.

Anyway are the Tories be funded by the Russians. A 2 min search brought be back this report from the Gaurdian about Russian donor and for those who dont like the articles author this story was equally covered by the Tory Telegraph and the Financial Times but these are behind paywalls

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -extremism
Ah, Owen Jones says it's true.

Why didn't you say?

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by martin_p » Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:08 pm

Damo wrote:Ah, Owen Jones says it's true.

Why didn't you say?
Well no, the Tory Party says it’s true, they are legally obliged to declare it.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Devils_Advocate » Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:11 pm

Damo wrote:Ah, Owen Jones says it's true.

Why didn't you say?
What about Gordon Rayner from the Telegraph?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... ns-philip/

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Damo » Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:17 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:What about Gordon Rayner from the Telegraph?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... ns-philip/
I can only read up to where the paywall starts, but that is a story about British citizens, legally donating to a political party isn't it?

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Cryssys » Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:17 pm

Damo wrote:Is there any evidence that Russia are funding the tories, or are we just taking the aluminium foil milliner, Cryssys word for it?
Love the way you've resorted to trying to insult me rather than addressing the issue. Says a lot about you.

Did you read the links I provided earlier? Just to make it easier for you:

"Nine Russian business people who gave money to the Conservative Party are named in a secret intelligence report on the threats posed to UK democracy which was suppressed last week by Downing Street.

Oligarchs and other wealthy Tory donors were included in the report on illicit Russian activities in Britain by the cross-party intelligence and security select committee (ISC), whose publication was blocked by No 10.

Some Russian donors are personally close to the prime minister. Alexander Temerko, who has worked for the Kremlin’s defence ministry and has spoken warmly about his “friend” Boris Johnson, has gifted more than £1.2m to the Conservatives over the past seven years."


This is from a piece published by The Times: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/russi ... -z98nqpkx0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Please feel free to check it for yourself.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndyClaret » Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:32 pm

First poll since the Brexit party announcement.
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Spijed » Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:36 pm

AndyClaret wrote:First poll since the Brexit party announcement.
About a 60/40 split from the Brexit party to the Conservatives. Nothing unsurprising

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Spijed » Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:38 pm

Meanwhile, I see Boris has just recorded a message regarding the substantial flooding. He's just said that only the areas that the Conservatives might have a chance of winning will receive any funding!

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:40 pm

Thank god for Andys daily poll

Pretty impressed that 4% of voters still haven't realised that they won't have a candidate to vote for.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by dsr » Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:40 pm

Spijed wrote:Meanwhile....

Why isn't a single government minister in the regions that have been flooded?
You think Boris should have stayed there for the duration after his visit to Matlock?

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by dsr » Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:40 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Thank god for Andys daily poll

Pretty impressed that 4% of voters still haven't realised that they won't have a candidate to vote for.
Either that, or it's a national poll.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:43 pm

dsr wrote:Either that, or it's a national poll.
Its in the 317 Tory seats.

Be interesting to see what that 4% do though

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Devils_Advocate » Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:43 pm

Damo wrote:I can only read up to where the paywall starts, but that is a story about British citizens, legally donating to a political party isn't it?
Not questioning the legality of it and to understand why these Russian Oligarchs who heavily fund the Tories have British citizenship then look up the 'golden visa' scheme and how it has been misused

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by dsr » Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:48 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Its in the 317 Tory seats.

Be interesting to see what that 4% do though
If you say so. It's very surprising to me that the percentage of support for all parties in Tory seats is the same as the national percentage. You'd have thought that if the Tories get 39% nationally, they would have a higher percentage in their own seats.

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