General Election Is On

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Steve1956
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Steve1956 » Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:21 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:That is a difficult position.
In my position here,what would you vote?

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndyClaret » Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:24 pm

Labour's Health spokesman currently being Brillo'd by Andrew Neil, he can't answer when, how, if and how much a 4 day week would be implemented in the NHS.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by android » Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:31 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:This thread is comedy gold

"You see that racist over there? "

"Oh god no, we hate racists"

"But he backs Brexit?"

"Really? Well, I'm sure he's just been misquoted and its all virtue signalling at the end of the day eh?"
Do we really need to keep labelling people we do not know racist on, at best(worst), highly tenuous grounds? What purpose does it serve?

Are you saying that if a person makes a racist comment then he/she is a racist. That's it. Game over.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndyClaret » Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:36 pm

SNP guy now being skewered by Neil over and Independent Scotland's fiscal deficit.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:36 pm

android wrote:Do we really need to keep labelling people we do not know racist on, at best(worst), highly tenuous grounds? What purpose does it serve?

Are you saying that if a person makes a racist comment then he/she is a racist. That's it. Game over.
Tenuous grounds?

There are plenty of politicians who are not racists and have not said anything remotely racist.

That group does not include the current PM of the UK.

My point stands and is spot on.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by martin_p » Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:42 pm

android wrote:Do we really need to keep labelling people we do not know racist on, at best(worst), highly tenuous grounds? What purpose does it serve?

Are you saying that if a person makes a racist comment then he/she is a racist. That's it. Game over.
Why would you say something racist if you weren’t racist?

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by android » Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:43 pm

I presume that includes Jo Swinson then with her six white men in a room comment.

What has the current PM said that makes him racist in your view?

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by android » Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:49 pm

martin_p wrote:Why would you say something racist if you weren’t racist?
I think people can make mistakes. And times change - we can all think of a term to describe people of colour that was considered appropriate some years ago and is now not appropriate but a very old person might use it in innocence. Just one example.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:00 pm

android wrote:I think people can make mistakes. And times change - we can all think of a term to describe people of colour that was considered appropriate some years ago and is now not appropriate but a very old person might use it in innocence. Just one example.
Cheers for driving home my point even more.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by android » Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:08 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Cheers for driving home my point even more.
Eh? Please could you be courteous enough to explain as I don't understand.

Would also be grateful if you could answer my previous question?

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Spijed » Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:21 pm

Ed Conway
@EdConwaySky
Here's what the Tory plans imply: a 2.9% avg annual real terms increase. More than during austerity but nonetheless the second-smallest increase of any comparable period since the NHS was created. Far from strongest in a generation it's among the weakest in any postwar generation

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by taio » Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:36 pm

Spijed wrote:Ed Conway
@EdConwaySky
Here's what the Tory plans imply: a 2.9% avg annual real terms increase. More than during austerity but nonetheless the second-smallest increase of any comparable period since the NHS was created. Far from strongest in a generation it's among the weakest in any postwar generation
Over what period is 2.9% increase being projected and what is it based on? The reason I ask is I thought the Tories had already committed to a 3.4% real terms annual increase and they are likely to make further spending commitments on health and care. Sorry I don't use Twitter but would be interested to know what you've concluded from this since you thought it was necessary to post it.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Rick_Muller » Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:43 pm

android wrote:I presume that includes Jo Swinson then with her six white men in a room comment.

What has the current PM said that makes him racist in your view?
He’s more than racist... this is the top result when searching for Boris racist

https://amp.businessinsider.com/boris-j ... ies-2019-6" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by dsr » Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:08 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:It wasn't a govt press conference it was a press conference on the EU discussions that took place. This wasn't thrust upon Johnson but a press conference he jointly agreed to and then ran away because he was scared to face his British public

Again if you have any actual proof to show it was specifically set up and arranged by Luxemburg and Johnson was not party to these arrangements please do post it. Otherwise just go and spread your [deleted] elsewhere please
Unfortunately it's very hard to find tangible proof that a press conference in Luxembourg was set up by Luxembourgers, and not by (for example) people from Botswana, Taiwan, or England. I suppose it's perfectly possible that johnson asked for a press conference to be held near an angry crowd of anti-Brexiters and then changed his mind when he realised the angry crowd of angry anti-Brexiters might not be co-operative? I don't know how closed a mind you would have to have to think that likely; but judging from your post, your mind is certainly closed enough to believe it.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Elizabeth » Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:19 pm

Why can't some people get it into their heads that we could have had an election concentrating on the real issues had Parliamentary MPs ( mainly Labour) not behaved in the way they did.
This will always be about Brexit and to think otherwise is foolhardy

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Devils_Advocate » Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:25 pm

dsr wrote:Unfortunately it's very hard to find tangible proof that a press conference in Luxembourg was set up by Luxembourgers, and not by (for example) people from Botswana, Taiwan, or England. I suppose it's perfectly possible that johnson asked for a press conference to be held near an angry crowd of anti-Brexiters and then changed his mind when he realised the angry crowd of angry anti-Brexiters might not be co-operative? I don't know how closed a mind you would have to have to think that likely; but judging from your post, your mind is certainly closed enough to believe it.
No worries DSR the conversation has moved on.

Corbyn was approached by a racist, homophobic christian nutjob who seems to think pedophilia by the church is less perverse than consensual adult sex between two men who then started to accuse Corbyn of being a terrorist sympathiser with unsubstantiated claims and as a result Corbyn made the sensible decision not to engage with him and give his horrific views any more airtime than he had already gotten

Johnson set up a joint press conference following a visit to Luxembourg to share his Brexit proposals and because some Luxembourg based British citizens turned up to protest about the negative threat it poses to their lives Johnson cancelled and snuck out the back door

Its clear youve sided with the racist, homophobic christian zealot in this debate but hey ho we've seen enough of your views pedaled on here over and over again to not be shocked or surprised.

You can keep on trying to twist things and act the good guy but once again the mask slips. Have a good night.
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by martin_p » Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:33 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote: Corbyn was approached by a racist, homophobic christian nutjob who seems to think pedophilia by the church is less perverse than consensual adult sex between two men who then started to accuse Corbyn of being a terrorist sympathiser with unsubstantiated claims and as a result Corbyn made the sensible decision not to engage with him
Then there’s that other video from today where a woman in Yorkshire is approached by a racist, homophobic nutjob and made the sensible decision not to engage.
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by dsr » Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:34 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:No worries DSR the conversation has moved on.

Corbyn was approached by a racist, homophobic christian nutjob who seems to think pedophilia by the church is less perverse than consensual adult sex between two men who then started to accuse Corbyn of being a terrorist sympathiser with unsubstantiated claims and as a result Corbyn made the sensible decision not to engage with him and give his horrific views any more airtime than he had already gotten

Johnson set up a joint press conference following a visit to Luxembourg to share his Brexit proposals and because some Luxembourg based British citizens turned up to protest about the negative threat it poses to their lives Johnson cancelled and snuck out the back door

Its clear youve sided with the racist, homophobic christian zealot in this debate but hey ho we've seen enough of your views pedaled on here over and over again to not be shocked or surprised.

You can keep on trying to twist things and act the good guy but once again the mask slips. Have a good night.
I think there's a bit of misreading, miscomprehension, or possibly ascribing someone else's post to me. What I said was:
dsr wrote:"I have a suspicion that if the UK government set up a press conference for Corbyn with a crowd of Brexiteers as spectators, Corbyn wouldn't turn up either."
There was no reference to any actual event, it was a hypothetical occurence. And it wasn't a criticism of Corbyn either. So now that the reason behind your recent string of rants has been sorted out, and we know it was down to sloppiness in reading, perhaps you can cut down on the bigotry?

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by FactualFrank » Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:14 pm

I was watching the Labour's pledge regarding the NHS but for some reason all I was picturing was https://youtu.be/1_36VDDTPRU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:57 pm

I’ve just been doing a fag packet working of Labour’s 32 hour week on the NHS.

The Tories reckon it will cost £6bn.

I think that is way, way too low. Well into double figures annually. The Tories wont have figured out the impact if the NHS cannot find new staff to replace these lost hours (likely to be overtime and other high pay levels, at least for a few years).

Crikey. Probably good for me, I’ll be asked to go into some Trusts to sort the mess out, like always when there is a major change, but terrible for the NHS.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Steve-Harpers-perm » Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:07 pm

AndyClaret wrote:SNP guy now being skewered by Neil over and Independent Scotland's fiscal deficit.
I was relying on you posting about what’s happened on News at Ten and Newsnight. Any new polls due out?

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lowbankclaret » Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:08 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:I’ve just been doing a fag packet working of Labour’s 32 hour week on the NHS.

The Tories reckon it will cost £6bn.

I think that is way, way too low. Well into double figures annually. The Tories wont have figured out the impact if the NHS cannot find new staff to replace these lost hours (likely to be overtime and other high pay levels, at least for a few years).

Crikey. Probably good for me, I’ll be asked to go into some Trusts to sort the mess out, like always when there is a major change, but terrible for the NHS.
To be fair communist costing are always on the low side, by a long way.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by tiger76 » Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:18 pm

FactualFrank wrote:I was watching the Labour's pledge regarding the NHS but for some reason all I was picturing was https://youtu.be/1_36VDDTPRU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Cynical FF i don't think extra money is necessarily the cure all for the NHS,despite what Labour claim.

This article is 18 months old,but the bullet points still remain.https://www.bbc.com/news/health-42572110

Social care hasn't yet had much of a mention in this campaign,but it's a ticking timebomb,and sooner or later the government of whatever persuasion will have to find a solution,whether that's raising income tax or national insurance or both.

A bigger issue is recruiting and retaining staff,yes you can train nurses but that takes 5-10 years to filter through,and if many existing staff are hitting retirement age in that period,your net increase will be minimal at best.

Immigration curbs don't encourage recruitment either,which is why i agree with Labour in keeping FOM.

Ideally the politicians would stop using the NHS as a political football,but alas that's fantasy land.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by aggi » Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:06 am

CrosspoolClarets wrote:I’ve just been doing a fag packet working of Labour’s 32 hour week on the NHS.

The Tories reckon it will cost £6bn.

I think that is way, way too low. Well into double figures annually. The Tories wont have figured out the impact if the NHS cannot find new staff to replace these lost hours (likely to be overtime and other high pay levels, at least for a few years).

Crikey. Probably good for me, I’ll be asked to go into some Trusts to sort the mess out, like always when there is a major change, but terrible for the NHS.
Are you taking into account the fact that the majority of studies show increased productivity when working fewer hours or assuming the same productivity levels?

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by taio » Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:08 am

aggi wrote:Are you taking into account the fact that the majority of studies show increased productivity when working fewer hours or assuming the same productivity levels?
How would the NHS increase its productivity, over and above it pursuing existing productivity initiatives, with the substantial workforce capacity and skills shortages that a 32 hour week would create in the NHS? Over the next 10 years and beyond the NHS will increasingly look to digital technology, AI and robotics to improve productivity but this will happen regardless.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndyClaret » Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:45 am

Labour is split over Immigration, union boss urges Corbyn to end free movement.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... f-movement" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:00 am

taio wrote:How would the NHS increase its productivity, over and above it pursuing existing productivity initiatives, with the substantial workforce capacity and skills shortages that a 32 hour week would create in the NHS? Over the next 10 years and beyond the NHS will increasingly look to digital technology, AI and robotics to improve productivity but this will happen regardless.
I think to compare the NHS with a normal workplace is why its in such a mess in the first place.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndyClaret » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:35 am

"The Tories are the party of the rich" Oh....

https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/11 ... 1228337152" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by aggi » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:44 am

AndyClaret wrote:"The Tories are the party of the rich" Oh....

https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/11 ... 1228337152" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Although pensioners, regardless of wealth, are classed as working class in this poll which I imagine has skewed the figures.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by android » Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:06 am

[quote="Rick_Muller"]He’s more than racist... this is the top result when searching for Boris racist

Boris has certainly played the clown over the years and said some idiotic things either at attempts at humour or just to get attention.

But over that period the country as a whole has grown up on gay rights including gay marriage. It's 2019 and thankfully no person has anything to fear from any British PM or government just for being gay.

Whether Boris has grown up in his attitude to women is more debatable, although I don't think the guaranteed bigger breasts policy will make it into the manifesto. He is not the first British, French or American leader to not practice celibacy or monogamy and some of them have been good leaders.

We have also made great strides against racism but I think this is more of a live issue and potential problem still than gay rights or womens rights. I don't think it helps that the term racist is thrown around so casually.

I had Lancaster down as one of the less rabid Tory haters so I asked him why he had branded our PM a racist. Also Martin as well, although I think he might have been joking.

I seem to have somehow upset Lancaster just by asking the question but I don't know why. Lancaster?

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Mala591 » Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:55 am

NET immigration is currently 300,000 per year (3 million over 10 years). Imo this situation is unsustainable and this country needs a strong but fair immigration policy.

The Conservatives are proposing an Australian style points based system. Can anyone (Andrew or Martin?) explain the immigration policies of the other political parties?

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:59 am

android wrote:
Why would you upset me?

I get vexed that intelligent people can ignore the evidence of their own eyes and ears but I can't do anything about it so I don't get angry.

You are perfectly within your rights to think Johnston isn't a racist. I think he's shown he is.

To be fair though, I worry more about the Conservative parties shift to the right (and also by Labour to the left) and anyone who thinks that won't have an effect on minorities in this county really needs to read some history.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Devils_Advocate » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:05 am

Mala591 wrote: fair policy / The Conservatives
Sorry you lost me with this oxymoron

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by android » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:11 am

Fair enough Lancs. But it was the "driving home your point" comment that seemed weird. Not only have you not driven home your point, you still seem unable to answer the question!

I think calling someone a racist is pretty serious. It's extremely serious if that person is our Prime Minister. Are you really unable to say why he is a racist?

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by martin_p » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:12 am

Mala591 wrote:NET immigration is currently 300,000 per year (3 million over 10 years). Imo this situation is unsustainable and this country needs a strong but fair immigration policy.

The Conservatives are proposing an Australian style points based system. Can anyone (Andrew or Martin?) explain the immigration policies of the other political parties?
The manifestos haven’t been published yet so no.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Mala591 » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:14 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:Sorry you lost me with this oxymoron
I consider the Australian based points system as a strong but fair system. If you disagree then kindly put forward your preferred solution to this very important political issue.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:19 am

android wrote:Fair enough Lancs. But it was the "driving home your point" comment that seemed weird. Not only have you not driven home your point, you still seem unable to answer the question!

I think calling someone a racist is pretty serious. It's extremely serious if that person is our Prime Minister. Are you really unable to say why he is a racist?
But you have though

My point was in four stages.

Your replies have (indirectly perhaps!) shown it be a fair one.

You must know that Johnson isn't fit to be PM.

Everyone who has worked with him and is honest about it is fairly damning. Its not just one or two disgruntled people is it?

You know he's guilty of saying stuff about Muslims, Liverpool, Scotland (just off the top of my head) that would immediately disqualify him from being a PM in normal times.

But he backs Brexit.

And because he backs Brexit, Brexit backers are prepared to ignore all his faults.

And when those faults are mentioned, they are brushed aside as not important.

Thats why my point stands.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:21 am

Mala591 wrote:I consider the Australian based points system as a strong but fair system. If you disagree then kindly put forward your preferred solution to this very important political issue.
I don't think its remotely fair.

You do know where the Australians take illegal immigrants to to avoid having to deal with them face to face don't you?

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Firthy » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:21 am

Donald Tusk coming down on the side of the remainers saying that Britain will be a 2nd rate country and it will be the real end of the British Empire if we go ahead with Brexit. Guess he's hoping to sway voters to vote Labour or Lib Dem. If that's Europes opinion of us then we're better of out of it and they obviously don't need us so why are they so desperate to keep us in.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:31 am

Worst ever A & E figures

https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/11 ... 4719395840" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This kind of thing matters.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Mala591 » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:34 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:I don't think its remotely fair.

You do know where the Australians take illegal immigrants to to avoid having to deal with them face to face don't you?
You are entitled to your opinion Lancs. So, what kind of 'fair' immigration system would YOU prefer?

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:36 am

Mala591 wrote:You are entitled to your opinion Lancs. So, what kind of 'fair' immigration system would YOU prefer?
One that realises that non-EU migration is bigger than EU migration.

One that doesn't penalise my kids if they want to work in other parts of Europe.

One that isn't blatantly racist.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by JohnMcGreal » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:43 am

It's funny how immigration critics always invoke Australia, one of the most racist countries in the world, when trying to make a point about a fairer system. Almost as if they're not really bothered about a fairer system, just a more racist one.
Last edited by JohnMcGreal on Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by android » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:43 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:But you have though

My point was in four stages.

Your replies have (indirectly perhaps!) shown it be a fair one.

You must know that Johnson isn't fit to be PM.

Everyone who has worked with him and is honest about it is fairly damning. Its not just one or two disgruntled people is it?

You know he's guilty of saying stuff about Muslims, Liverpool, Scotland (just off the top of my head) that would immediately disqualify him from being a PM in normal times.

But he backs Brexit.

And because he backs Brexit, Brexit backers are prepared to ignore all his faults.

And when those faults are mentioned, they are brushed aside as not important.

Thats why my point stands.
You are making less and less sense. How on earth have I answered the question that Johnson is a racist?

I don't see how comments about Liverpool and Scotland make him racist. You mention Muslims and I can only think of the letter box thing. Is that it? Rowan Atkinson called this a good and funny joke. I disagree with Rowan Atkinson but I doubt he is a fan of Boris Johnson and a don't think he is a racist. But logically you must also think Rowan Atkinson is a racist - right?

You have written a lot about truth and evidence so you must have more than this surely?

JohnMcGreal
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by JohnMcGreal » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:45 am

android wrote:Fair enough Lancs. But it was the "driving home your point" comment that seemed weird. Not only have you not driven home your point, you still seem unable to answer the question!

I think calling someone a racist is pretty serious. It's extremely serious if that person is our Prime Minister. Are you really unable to say why he is a racist?
You know what's more serious than calling someone a racist? Being a racist.
This user liked this post: Lancasterclaret

Lancasterclaret
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:47 am

android wrote:You are making less and less sense. How on earth have I answered the question that Johnson is a racist?

I don't see how comments about Liverpool and Scotland make him racist. You mention Muslims and I can only think of the letter box thing. Is that it? Rowan Atkinson called this a good and funny joke. I disagree with Rowan Atkinson but I doubt he is a fan of Boris Johnson and a don't think he is a racist. But logically you must also think Rowan Atkinson is a racist - right?

You have written a lot about truth and evidence so you must have more than this surely?
Look, you vote for Johnson because he backs Brexit.

You ignore the other **** that he's clearly unsuitable to be PM.

When its bought up, you ignore it and make facile comparisons

every post you make on this backs up my post.

In the nicest possible way, you are clearly way brighter than this.

But its Brexit, and to some, that trumps everything.

Lancasterclaret
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:47 am

JohnMcGreal wrote:You know what's more serious than calling someone a racist? Being a racist.
Exactly

Mala591
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Mala591 » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:47 am

JohnMcGreal wrote:It's funny how immigration critics always invoke Australia, one of the most racist countries in the world, when trying to make a point about a fairer system. Almost as if they're not really bothered about a fairer system, just a more racist one.
Please explain why the Australian points based immigration system is racist.

android
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by android » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:48 am

JohnMcGreal wrote:You know what's more serious than calling someone a racist? Being a racist.
Blimey. Are you calling me a racist now?????

AndyClaret
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndyClaret » Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:01 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:One that realises that non-EU migration is bigger than EU migration.
So the Government are letting in lots of brown people.
One that isn't blatantly racist.
The Government is blatantly racist.


Quite, quite, incredible.

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