General Election Is On

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android
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by android » Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:21 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Oh good, we've got whataboutery now.

This is completely predictable.

At least you've admitted that Johnson has made a racist comment, which is a start I suppose.

You might even be admitting he's a serial liar by the next election at this rate of progress.
I did not say that Johnson has made a racist comment. I was defending Corbyn.

Instead of making stuff up and obfuscating why don't you answer my question? What are the racist thing/things that Johnson has said or done?

You have actually made an outrageous slur against me Lancaster by effectively aligning with John McGreal to call me a racist. I expect you will continue avoiding the question about Johnson but I would be grateful if you would apologise to me and withdraw that ridiculous allegation.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:25 pm

android wrote:I did not say that Johnson has made a racist comment. I was defending Corbyn.

Instead of making stuff up and obfuscating why don't you answer my question? What are the racist thing/things that Johnson has said or done?

You have actually made an outrageous slur against me Lancaster by effectively aligning with John McGreal to call me a racist. I expect you will continue avoiding the question about Johnson but I would be grateful if you would apologise to me and withdraw that ridiculous allegation.
You just need to read the thread

Page 40

I think the point JmC was making the point that being an actual racist is worse than calling someone a racist (which is my interpretation of it btw)

I've agreed with that because it clearly is.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by android » Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:35 pm

fatboy47 wrote:
Not entirely sure what you mean in the first question but I think there is no way the current House would have allowed Johnson's deal to go through ultimately - whether through unpalatable amendments or whatever. Once the 31 Oct pledge had been made their only goal was delay, as delivery would have been an obvious electoral advantage for Johnson.

I reluctantly wanted May's deal to go through. I thought it would and I was wrong. I prefer Boris's deal as I think the removal of the backstop puts us in a stronger negotiating position (other opinions are available). Northern Ireland was always going to be a special case in some way as it always has been.

I would be in favour of a 2nd ref if the polls showed, for the sake of argument, 80% remain. If so we would be mad to press on. But we are not there and it's still close to 50:50. Interesting that your friends have shifted as I have heard very little of that. What are the reasons? I have thought for a long time that the numbers shifting to Remain would be more than offset by those shifting to Leave (probably small numbers due to revised opinion of EU) and more significantly Remain voters thinking the result should be implemented (probably quite large numbers).

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Devils_Advocate » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:00 pm

dsr wrote:Fair enough. DA himself was calling me yesterday because he read something into one of my posts that simply wasn't there. I shouldn't be making the same mistake. Fair play to DA for posting something complimentary to Boris, who I know he doesn't normally approve of.
It wasn't complimentary to Johnson. Having empathy for children with Aids can only be a good thing (although should be a given) and I would not question that Johnson didn't feel empathy but to refer to them as little Aids-ridden choristers just highlights the way he views people from the African continent

Before you or anyone else comes back with the defence well they do have aids then just think whether Johnson would refer to British children in this way if he went to a childrens hospital ward in the UK next month and some children with Aids sang Christmas carols for him.

Edit: I didnt read anything into your posts that wasnt there. You got involved in a conversation that was clearly about Corby running away where I provided a comparative example of Johnson doing the same. You made no effort to defend the accusations against Corbyn yet tried to twist things anyway you could to defend Johnson. I drew the conclusion I still stand by that you picked your side of the debate and sided with a racist, homophobic christian zealot who to be fair has as far as I can see a lot more common ground with you than Corbyn does
Last edited by Devils_Advocate on Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by android » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:03 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:You just need to read the thread

Page 40

I think the point JmC was making the point that being an actual racist is worse than calling someone a racist (which is my interpretation of it btw)

I've agreed with that because it clearly is.
Ok progress at last.

So I misread JmC and your earlier weird driving home thing and neither of you are calling me a racist. Small mercies!

And you have not answered the question but you have allowed others to answer it for you. So Johnson is a racist for 2 reasons (please correct me without being cryptic if I'm wrong):
1. The burkas and letter boxes.
2. The "piccannies" and "watermelon smiles"

I have already answered the letter box thing. I think it was unwise but I do agree with Rowan Atkinson and other free speech lovers that it was not racist. He was mocking an extreme interpretation of a religion that very few muslims in this country agree with and which oppresses women. I believe he is against any clothing bans.

The second point doesn't look good in 2019. I understand the context was mocking Blair for escaping to Commonwealth countries in Africa to be greeted by supposedly adoring crowds to make Blair look good away from his domestic strife. The first word means black children and is a descriptive term. I fail to see how any children of any race cannot have watermelon smiles. Nevertheless, when it was pointed out that these words are offensive to some people he apologised unreservedly. He likes to use obscure clever words and he came unstuck.

So is that it? That is all that is needed now to brand someone a racist for life?

You do realise that you are going to be fuming when I tell you what Corbyn said about British Jews. It was worse than the above because it was actual racial prejudice - a race deemed to be different to "us". When I last discussed his antisemitism problems I said that despite this I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and not go as far as calling him a racist. Obviously to you he must be.

So we don't know who our next PM will be but we do know that according to your logic he/she will be a racist. Brilliant!

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lord Beamish » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:13 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:It wasn't complimentary to Johnson. Having empathy for children with Aids can only be a good thing (although should be a given) and I would not question that Johnson didn't feel empathy but to refer to them as little Aids-ridden choristers just highlights the way he views people from the African continent

Before you or anyone else comes back with the defence well they do have aids then just think whether Johnson would refer to British children in this way if he went to a childrens hospital ward in the UK next month and some children with Aids sang Christmas carols for him.

Edit: I didnt read anything into your posts that wasnt there. You got involved in a conversation that was clearly about Corby running away where I provided a comparative example of Johnson doing the same. You made no effort to defend the accusations against Corbyn yet tried to twist things anyway you could to defend Johnson. I drew the conclusion I still stand by that you picked your side of the debate and sided with a racist, homophobic christian zealot who to be fair has as far as I can see a lot more common ground with you than Corbyn does
I didn’t look at it like that, but you are correct. I’ll leave you to defend yourself in future. You can do it far better than I.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Devils_Advocate » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:14 pm

android wrote: I fail to see how any children of any race cannot have watermelon smiles.
You really dont see the racial connotations of watermelon smiles and you really think Johnson did not understand its historical context?

Image

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watermelon_stereotype

Im sorry but if you are taking this position you are either to stupid to be worht a serious debate (you obviously are not stupid) or you are deliberately misrepresenting things in a disingenuous way which should make anyone question the good faith of the rest of your views and arguments

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Devils_Advocate » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:16 pm

Lord Beamish wrote:I didn’t look at it like that, but you are correct. I’ll leave you to defend yourself in future. You can do it far better than I.
Thats fair enough but you still managed to sum up DSR perfectly even when getting the wrong end of the stick. Plus how many people are happy to put their hands up and say I misread something rather than keep digging and digging or just run away

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by JohnMcGreal » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:20 pm

android wrote:I did not say that Johnson has made a racist comment. I was defending Corbyn.

Instead of making stuff up and obfuscating why don't you answer my question? What are the racist thing/things that Johnson has said or done?

You have actually made an outrageous slur against me Lancaster by effectively aligning with John McGreal to call me a racist. I expect you will continue avoiding the question about Johnson but I would be grateful if you would apologise to me and withdraw that ridiculous allegation.
Where did I call you a racist? Do you know how serious it is to accuse someone of accusing someone of being a racist?

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by dsr » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:36 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:It wasn't complimentary to Johnson. Having empathy for children with Aids can only be a good thing (although should be a given) and I would not question that Johnson didn't feel empathy but to refer to them as little Aids-ridden choristers just highlights the way he views people from the African continent

Before you or anyone else comes back with the defence well they do have aids then just think whether Johnson would refer to British children in this way if he went to a childrens hospital ward in the UK next month and some children with Aids sang Christmas carols for him.

Edit: I didnt read anything into your posts that wasnt there. You got involved in a conversation that was clearly about Corby running away where I provided a comparative example of Johnson doing the same. You made no effort to defend the accusations against Corbyn yet tried to twist things anyway you could to defend Johnson. I drew the conclusion I still stand by that you picked your side of the debate and sided with a racist, homophobic christian zealot who to be fair has as far as I can see a lot more common ground with you than Corbyn does
:roll: I didn't defend the accusations about Corbyn because I agreed with what you said about him. I disagreed with what you said about Johnson so I told you so. Maybe the world would be a happier place if we all posted to say how much we agree with each other, but that's not the way it often works.

I'm sure there are other ways to describe little Aids-ridden choristers. But if this is to be exhibit number 2 in "Boris Johnson is a racist", then it suggests the evidence is very very thin.

You would need to have a heart of stone to look at that sentence and fill yourself with hatred for the man that said it.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by dsr » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:37 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Thats fair enough but you still managed to sum up DSR perfectly even when getting the wrong end of the stick. Plus how many people are happy to put their hands up and say I misread something rather than keep digging and digging or just run away
You aren't, for a start.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by android » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:39 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:Where did I call you a racist? Do you know how serious it is to accuse someone of accusing someone of being a racist?
It seems I put 2 and 2 together from your post 1945 and Lancs cryptic posts and made 842. I very quickly gave you a chance to withdraw but maybe you had gone. Anyway - apologies - at least the racism wattage between clarets has been turned down. But tragic that apparently we have a choice between 2 racists for PM (not my view).

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:41 pm

android wrote:Ok progress at last.

So I misread JmC and your earlier weird driving home thing and neither of you are calling me a racist. Small mercies!

And you have not answered the question but you have allowed others to answer it for you. So Johnson is a racist for 2 reasons (please correct me without being cryptic if I'm wrong):
1. The burkas and letter boxes.
2. The "piccannies" and "watermelon smiles"

I have already answered the letter box thing. I think it was unwise but I do agree with Rowan Atkinson and other free speech lovers that it was not racist. He was mocking an extreme interpretation of a religion that very few muslims in this country agree with and which oppresses women. I believe he is against any clothing bans.

The second point doesn't look good in 2019. I understand the context was mocking Blair for escaping to Commonwealth countries in Africa to be greeted by supposedly adoring crowds to make Blair look good away from his domestic strife. The first word means black children and is a descriptive term. I fail to see how any children of any race cannot have watermelon smiles. Nevertheless, when it was pointed out that these words are offensive to some people he apologised unreservedly. He likes to use obscure clever words and he came unstuck.

So is that it? That is all that is needed now to brand someone a racist for life?

You do realise that you are going to be fuming when I tell you what Corbyn said about British Jews. It was worse than the above because it was actual racial prejudice - a race deemed to be different to "us". When I last discussed his antisemitism problems I said that despite this I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and not go as far as calling him a racist. Obviously to you he must be.

So we don't know who our next PM will be but we do know that according to your logic he/she will be a racist. Brilliant!
You'll vote for him after those incidents?

You'll vote for him after all his lies?

You'll vote for him after its pretty clear his morals are alley cat level?

Got to ask mate, at what stage won't you vote for him?

And I have to ask, where have you got the impression that I'm interested in what you think about Corbyn from?

I don't vote labour and think he's useless.

I just think Johnson is worse.
Last edited by Lancasterclaret on Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by android » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:42 pm

DA - I have never heard that term until recently and I have no idea what Johnson thought about it back then. Presumably you also disagree with me on Corbyn then and you have him down as a racist?

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by android » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:43 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:You'll vote for him after those incidents?

You'll vote for him after all his lies?

You'll vote for him after its pretty clear his morals are alley cat level?

Got to ask mate, at what stage won't you vote for him?
Well I certainly will not vote for Corbyn that's for sure.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by android » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:50 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:
And I have to ask, where have you got the impression that I'm interested in what you think about Corbyn from?


.
That's what happens though - I raise something uncomfortable about Corbyn and you respond like that. I thought we could have a civilised debate but let's end it there.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by aggi » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:51 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:You really dont see the racial connotations of watermelon smiles and you really think Johnson did not understand its historical context?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watermelon_stereotype

Im sorry but if you are taking this position you are either to stupid to be worht a serious debate (you obviously are not stupid) or you are deliberately misrepresenting things in a disingenuous way which should make anyone question the good faith of the rest of your views and arguments
To be fair I think a lot of people in the UK aren't aware of a lot of the Jim Crow racial stereotypes of the USA. It was never really a thing over here and it was easy to not be exposed to it.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Firthy » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:51 pm

The sad thing is that this election isn't about parties and manifestos. It's about Brexit and having a go at the opposition. Whatever the result the country will end up like a headless chicken. Scary times ahead.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:52 pm

android wrote:Well I certainly will not vote for Corbyn that's for sure.
Yeah, I certainly got that impression!

Look, all I know is that both Labour and the Conservatives have terrible leaders, but unless someone votes for someone else, it won't change anything.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:53 pm

android wrote:That's what happens though - I raise something uncomfortable about Corbyn and you respond like that. I thought we could have a civilised debate but let's end it there.
Because its pretty clear from my posts that I don't like Corbyn, I don't vote for Corbyn and I blame Corbyn for a lot of what has gone wrong.

You use him as its your only defence against my attacks on Johnston and his character.

You can't actually defend Johnson and his character.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Spijed » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:01 pm

norman smith

@BBCNormanS
Sounds to me Tories not at all confident they will be able to reduce immigration. Now Priti Patel line is they will "control" immigration.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndyClaret » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:21 pm

Brexit party candidate Rupert Lowe has just withdrawn his papers in Dudley North, labours 2nd most marginal seat.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Devils_Advocate » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:30 pm

android wrote:DA - I have never heard that term until recently and I have no idea what Johnson thought about it back then. Presumably you also disagree with me on Corbyn then and you have him down as a racist?
I'll accept you was not aware of the links between Watermelons and the old cartoons and imagery of the black slave stereotypes but I find it very surprising as you seem to be very well read and have a breadth of knowledge in this kind of area. There is absolutely zero chance Boris Johnson did not realise the what he was referencing with the term but what he obviously misjudged is what kind of things he can say in his own circles and what is acceptable in the public domain.

Im not sure I have actually specifically branded Johnson as a racist but I think he has no problem using knowingly racist language / expressions in certain situations. I see Johnson as someone who will be anything to anyone to ultimately get what he wants and I think he is a potential danger to minorities because if the tide is against them he will simply swim with it.

Conversations go down many wormholes on here it is hard to keep track of where they go back to and a lot of stuff I see you post on Corbyn does seem to conflate the fight against Israel and solidarity with Palestine to that of antisemitism. I dont want you to rehash stuff but if you provide me with a few of your examples of why you see Corbyn as being racist in the same way people have provided examples of Johnson then I will look at them on their own merit in isolation and give my view.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Cryssys » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:36 pm

Spijed wrote:norman smith

@BBCNormanS
Sounds to me Tories not at all confident they will be able to reduce immigration. Now Priti Patel line is they will "control" immigration.
They talk the talk because they believe it is a vote winner but they have consistently failed to achieve their stated objective of reducing net migration to less than 100,000 p.a. Why? Because it is hopelessly unrealistic given the UK's dependence on immigrant labour. They know that it's unrealistic but they also realise that admitting it will not go down well. Hence the change to we will "control immigration."

The Office for National Statistics (ONS) estimate that in 2017, just under 9.4 million people living in the UK were born abroad, (14.3% of the total population of the UK). Of these, 3.7 million were from countries now in the European Union and just under 5.7 million were from non-EU countries.

As other posters have pointed out leaving the EU will not result in a reduction in net immigration. It will just change the countries they come from.
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Cryssys » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:45 pm

AndyClaret wrote:Did he run away like Jezza ?
Looks like Boris has just done a runner in Somerset:

"There were lively scenes in Glastonbury as Boris Johnson dodged a crowd of protesters at a bakery in a business park on the outskirts of the Somerset town.

Word got out that Johnson was on his way and a crowd of about 100 – including Extinction Rebellion protesters, musicians and even a bard – turned up to greet him at the Burns the Bakery unit.

It got tense when the police moved the crowd away from the front of the bakery on to a grass verge close to a busy road.

Tory supporters including James Heappey, the party’s candidate in Wells, waited at the bakery for Johnson for more than an hour, but he did not show.

Over to you Andy.
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Cryssys » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:47 pm

Duplicate post so deleted
Last edited by Cryssys on Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by aggi » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:52 pm

Spijed wrote:norman smith

@BBCNormanS
Sounds to me Tories not at all confident they will be able to reduce immigration. Now Priti Patel line is they will "control" immigration.
I don't think anyone with a modicum of intelligence will be surprised by that. Just look at what's happened in the past few years, the drop in EU immigration has just been matched by an increase in non-EU immigration.

There's no way the Tory party is going to restrict immigrant labour, they just hope that people are gullible enough to believe them when they say they are rather then look at their actual track record.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by android » Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:09 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:I'll accept you was not aware of the links between Watermelons and the old cartoons and imagery of the black slave stereotypes but I find it very surprising as you seem to be very well read and have a breadth of knowledge in this kind of area. There is absolutely zero chance Boris Johnson did not realise the what he was referencing with the term but what he obviously misjudged is what kind of things he can say in his own circles and what is acceptable in the public domain.

Im not sure I have actually specifically branded Johnson as a racist but I think he has no problem using knowingly racist language / expressions in certain situations. I see Johnson as someone who will be anything to anyone to ultimately get what he wants and I think he is a potential danger to minorities because if the tide is against them he will simply swim with it.

Conversations go down many wormholes on here it is hard to keep track of where they go back to and a lot of stuff I see you post on Corbyn does seem to conflate the fight against Israel and solidarity with Palestine to that of antisemitism. I dont want you to rehash stuff but if you provide me with a few of your examples of why you see Corbyn as being racist in the same way people have provided examples of Johnson then I will look at them on their own merit in isolation and give my view.
Aggi kindly helped me out on the first bit. Never heard of it in my life until it was brought up about Johnson recently. Maybe I'm not as well read as you think!

I desperately don't want to drag up the Corbyn antisemitism stuff on which very few if any people are ever going to change their minds and I just don't have time. There was the mural and the wreath laying and the platform sharing with hideous anti-Semites and toleration of extremist views (as long as also left wing) and the hounding out (not directly by him obviously) of Jewish Labour MPs and so on. But there is only one time I have seen that he made an outright anti-Semitic comment. I'm useless at links but google Simon Hattenstone in the Guardian August 2018. Yes, my source for the facts of what he said is the Guardian and the opinion piece agreeing that it was blatantly anti semitic is a Guardian writer (not the Daily Mail for a change)! I just don't think one slip is enough to convict a lifelong anti racist campaigner - maybe he just got wound up that day or something. Of course stacked against all the other stuff it doesn't look good and I totally get why a lot of Jewish people say he is an outright racist but I am NOT the one saying that.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Devils_Advocate » Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:19 pm

android wrote:Aggi kindly helped me out on the first bit. Never heard of it in my life until it was brought up about Johnson recently. Maybe I'm not as well read as you think!

I desperately don't want to drag up the Corbyn antisemitism stuff on which very few if any people are ever going to change their minds and I just don't have time. There was the mural and the wreath laying and the platform sharing with hideous anti-Semites and toleration of extremist views (as long as also left wing) and the hounding out (not directly by him obviously) of Jewish Labour MPs and so on. But there is only one time I have seen that he made an outright anti-Semitic comment. I'm useless at links but google Simon Hattenstone in the Guardian August 2018. Yes, my source for the facts of what he said is the Guardian and the opinion piece agreeing that it was blatantly anti semitic is a Guardian writer (not the Daily Mail for a change)! I just don't think one slip is enough to convict a lifelong anti racist campaigner - maybe he just got wound up that day or something. Of course stacked against all the other stuff it doesn't look good and I totally get why a lot of Jewish people say he is an outright racist but I am NOT the one saying that.
Thanks. I'll have a look with an open mind but I'll be honest before I start that I am sceptical about the way with some of these links that they put one thing with another and make the connection they want. I'll let you know my thoughts and try and have a discussion with you but that in itself is not easy on a forum like this (for good reasons as well as bad) and agree with you that there is no point us going down the same rabit holes we've been before.

I dont mind disagreeing with people and having different opinions but what I object to is those who pedal falsities and half truths or dont discuss issues with any good faith or objectivity. If I can see the facts of the matter are represented fairly and you are taking a view based on the facts rather than trying to find facts just to support an already decided opinion then if we disagree then thats fair enough

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by fatboy47 » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:04 pm

Lord Beamish wrote:I’m surprised you didn’t finish that by calling Lancaster “Grasshopper”.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndrewJB » Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:48 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:It doesn't start there, it starts with the prevention why do some need to be their in the first place, obesity, smoking, drinking basically anything that contributes to poor health, prevention is always better than the cure, money should be spent on that & everything else will reduce or fall into place. The savings accrued adopting that kind of approach will be massive rather than throwing money into a bottomless pit.
This works in a lot of areas, such as justice, or child and family services - where youth and community groups, living wages and benefits that don't get sanctioned for every little thing, and affordable childcare (for just a few examples) are positive and inexpensive ways to give youth a chance to play sports or socialise, parents enough money to not be constantly stressed about it, and the ability to go out and work. Sadly these things were the first victims of austerity - but you can see how funding a neighbourhood youth program for tens of thousands of pounds can save a lot of money when contrasted against the hundreds of thousands of pounds it costs the taxpayer and wider community to process a young adult through the criminal justice system.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Paul Waine » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:27 pm

What will this mb be like if we've all got free broadband? Some posters will never sleep. ;)

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by bfcjg » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:30 pm

Paul Waine wrote:What will this mb be like if we've all got free broadband? Some posters will never sleep. ;)
Not to worry Labour will pay for us all to have comfortable beds and personal sleep therapists on the NHS. These rich people and big businesses who are getting taxed to pay for all these things must be super loaded.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndrewJB » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:44 pm

bfcjg wrote:Not to worry Labour will pay for us all to have comfortable beds and personal sleep therapists on the NHS. These rich people and big businesses who are getting taxed to pay for all these things must be super loaded.
The top 1000 of them in the U.K. trebled their wealth from £250Billion to.£750Billion between 2010 and 2017, so they’re doing fairly well.

On the subject of internet provision, would anyone complain if they paid more in tax, but saved more in total by not having to pay the monthly charge?

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Dy1geo » Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:09 pm

AndrewJB wrote:The top 1000 of them in the U.K. trebled their wealth from £250Billion to.£750Billion between 2010 and 2017, so they’re doing fairly well.

On the subject of internet provision, would anyone complain if they paid more in tax, but saved more in total by not having to pay the monthly charge?
Where is the money coming from to buy them are they swapping for bonds, or are they going to the market to raise the funds needed to buy them, what do yo think will happen to pension funds that hold these shares

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Jakubclaret » Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:23 pm

AndrewJB wrote:This works in a lot of areas, such as justice, or child and family services - where youth and community groups, living wages and benefits that don't get sanctioned for every little thing, and affordable childcare (for just a few examples) are positive and inexpensive ways to give youth a chance to play sports or socialise, parents enough money to not be constantly stressed about it, and the ability to go out and work. Sadly these things were the first victims of austerity - but you can see how funding a neighbourhood youth program for tens of thousands of pounds can save a lot of money when contrasted against the hundreds of thousands of pounds it costs the taxpayer and wider community to process a young adult through the criminal justice system.
Ideas & projects such as you’ve described if the results don’t happen straightaway the funding reduces & eventually stops, youth programs are more designed for multi cultural urban environments & I can’t say for sure whether it’s a success or failure as they don’t run for long enough. You do need find a balance of genuinely trying to help people but also ensure advantage isn’t taken, they say kindness can be a weakness, I’m a strong supporter of funding opportunities for the youth providing it represents value (not just financially) but for the betterment overall.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndrewJB » Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:26 pm

Dy1geo wrote:Where is the money coming from to buy them are they swapping for bonds, or are they going to the market to raise the funds needed to buy them, what do yo think will happen to pension funds that hold these shares
Read the manifesto once it comes out. Pension funds sometimes lose value - look at what happened during the financial crisis. It will depend on how smart the fund managers are, and the clever ones won’t be exposing themselves to too much risk over companies like this.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Rick_Muller » Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:31 pm

Watching QT... Tories taking a kicking tonight. Lass from Brexit party spoke some sense about stopping NHS being a political football and requested a cross party commission to define the future all parties would stick to. Clive Lewis speaking the most sense tonight, and is certainly reassuring me that Labour are thinking things through

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Dy1geo » Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:32 pm

AndrewJB wrote:Read the manifesto once it comes out. Pension funds sometimes lose value - look at what happened during the financial crisis. It will depend on how smart the fund managers are, and the clever ones won’t be exposing themselves to too much risk over companies like this.
Where is the money coming from to buy them?

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndrewJB » Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:38 pm

Dy1geo wrote:Where is the money coming from to buy them?
It’ll be in their manifesto once that is published. Bear in mind that even if it all comes from borrowing, well have assets as a result of it.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Jakubclaret » Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:40 pm

AndrewJB wrote:This works in a lot of areas, such as justice, or child and family services - where youth and community groups, living wages and benefits that don't get sanctioned for every little thing, and affordable childcare (for just a few examples) are positive and inexpensive ways to give youth a chance to play sports or socialise, parents enough money to not be constantly stressed about it, and the ability to go out and work. Sadly these things were the first victims of austerity - but you can see how funding a neighbourhood youth program for tens of thousands of pounds can save a lot of money when contrasted against the hundreds of thousands of pounds it costs the taxpayer and wider community to process a young adult through the criminal justice system.
Also you’ve forgot to mention these schemes operate on a first come first served basis with limited placements, a certain budget gets allocated & when the money is gone it’s gone, hence fundraising activities & recruiting a voluntary workforce to make it more sustainable, it’s not just down to the government to throw endless amounts of money at these schemes, people also need to show initiative themselves even driving down to the cash & carry & buying crisps & chocolates & pop & open a tuck shop up & make a profit on the items.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Dy1geo » Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:54 pm

AndrewJB wrote:It’ll be in their manifesto once that is published. Bear in mind that even if it all comes from borrowing, well have assets as a result of it.
Whilst I admire many of the progressive policies Labour are announcing, the worry is the costs and will the Bond markets lend, if PIMCO one of the largest bond investors in the world have said they are giving UK Gilts a wide berth, other bond investors will demand higher yields that what is on offer at the moment thus we will end up paying more than 3.5% of our annual budget on debt payments leading to cuts or increasing taxes.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Paul Waine » Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:07 am

AndrewJB wrote:The top 1000 of them in the U.K. trebled their wealth from £250Billion to.£750Billion between 2010 and 2017, so they’re doing fairly well.

On the subject of internet provision, would anyone complain if they paid more in tax, but saved more in total by not having to pay the monthly charge?
Hi Andrew, no.1 on the UK's rich list is Jim Ratcliffe - started out living on a council estate in Manchester. Let's say he's got £20 bn. How much was he worth in 2010? What I know is his business, Ineos, was close to failure following the 2008 "world financial crisis. What I also know is the larger part of his business in not in the UK, although what is in the UK is also very significant.

Can you name some of the other 999, and add a little info about how and where they are making their wealth?

We've got to hope that everyone would support paying more with one hand to save more on the other hand. That's not JC/JmcD proposal though, is it. They want 5% to pay more and 95% not to pay any more.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndrewJB » Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:12 am

Mala591 wrote:I consider the Australian based points system as a strong but fair system. If you disagree then kindly put forward your preferred solution to this very important political issue.
There are several things not addressed by this kind of system. Refugees - for which we have a legal obligation to take in our share; family reunification; and building British citizens (both those here, and those coming here). If we’re just looking for people to fill jobs, we could look at (for example) five year visas which after they expire, the holder could apply for citizenship if they met certain criteria; or even exchanges with other countries.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Paul Waine » Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:14 am

The Times take on things:

(Yes, other media reports are available)

Labour vows billions to nationalise broadband in new election policy

Free internet would cost taxpayer £12bn-£25bn

A Labour government would nationalise Britain’s broadband network and offer free internet access to every household and business in the country, the party will say today.

Outlining the party’s most radical policy of the campaign to date, John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor, will say that Labour would commit £20.3 billion to speed up the introduction of broadband.

It would also nationalise BT’s Openreach, which owns the bulk of the full-fibre network. The cost of this commitment is unclear as its shareholders would be compensated at a price fixed by parliament, but Bloomberg has recently estimated Openreach’s value at between £12 billion and £25 billion.

The pledge is an echo of a promise by Michael Foot in Labour’s 1983 election manifesto to create a full-cable network in public hands.

Broadband is the fifth industry targeted for public ownership by Labour after nationalisation plans already announced for rail operators, Royal Mail, water and energy companies.

Labour’s broadband offer comes after a day in which:
• Nigel Farage was hit by a last-minute rebellion as Brexit Party candidates quit to give the Tories a better chance in the general election.
• Jeremy Corbyn refused to say whether migration would rise or fall if Labour won, amid a split among his senior team over free movement.
• The worst A&E waiting figures on record heightened Tory fears of a full-blown NHS winter emergency before next month’s vote.

Mr McDonnell told The Times that a new Labour government would make a priority of establishing the new state-owned entity, British Broadband.

The running costs, estimated at £230 million a year, would be funded from a new tax on multinational companies. They would be charged a percentage of their profits, according to a calculation of what proportion of the assets, staff and turnover was located in Britain, he said. Mr McDonnell added that Labour’s manifesto, which will be finalised this weekend, would not make significant changes to inheritance tax.

He said that poor access to the internet had emerged as critical factor holding back local economies and driving young people to leave communities. “I’ve been touring around small communities . . . to talk about how we develop their local economy,” he said. “In every one of those meetings local people have raised the issue about how they develop their economy and the failure to be connected in terms of full-fibre broadband and how it is holding them back.”

Universal free broadband could lift Britain’s productivity by £59 billion, spreading employment more evenly through the country, he said.

During the Tory leadership campaign Boris Johnson promised to accelerate a commitment to provide a full-fibre network nationwide from 2033 to 2025 by means of a £5 billion subsidy. Labour will instead promise to establish the network within a decade — and to provide the service free.

In 2017 Labour proposed tax rises of £49 billion. The shadow chancellor declined to say whether the total would be higher or lower in this year’s manifesto.

Q&A

Who owns Britain’s broadband network?
Most of the infrastructure is owned and operated by Openreach, part of BT Group. An increasing number of investors and service providers, such as Talktalk in Yorkshire, have been investing in building their own networks.

What is the state of the broadband network?
Full-fibre broadband is available in 2.5 million properties, or 8 per cent. That compares with 80 per cent in other parts of Europe.

What is Labour proposing?
Free full-fibre to all individuals and businesses by 2030. It plans to introduce the remaining 92 per cent of full-fibre through a government-owned network and to acquire access rights to the existing 8 per cent.

How would Labour deliver this?
By creating a new entity called British Broadband with two arms. British Digital Infrastructure would build the network, and British Broadband Service would deliver free broadband. It would mean carving out a big part of BT Group, and leaving businesses such as BT Sport, and EE, BT’s mobile phone network, in private ownership.

How would Labour pay for this?
Labour forecasts a one-off capital cost to build the network of £15.3 billion, in addition to the £5 billion of funding committed by the government. The cost of nationalising parts of BT would be set by parliament and paid for by swapping bonds for shares. It says maintenance costs would be low, at about £230 million a year.

What would this mean for other broadband providers and BT?
A national free broadband provider would be likely to wipe out other service providers whose main business is broadband, and leave others such as Virgin Media that offer various services to review their investment in Britain. It would also probably lead to lengthy legal action from the industry and potentially shareholders. Labour is considering allowing rival broadband providers to acquire access rights to the network, and to continue to offer services despite the state providing it for nothing.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndyClaret » Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:54 am

Chairman of BT has said the cost would be more like 100bn, there's also the ongoing cost of providing something for free forever, which currently has a monthly payment.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:03 am

If santa corbyn promises to throw in food, water, booze and holidays in his free list along with broadband then I am voting for the balloon.

Hopefully amazon will agree to pay for all this

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndrewJB » Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:08 am

AndyClaret wrote:Chairman of BT has said the cost would be more like 100bn, there's also the ongoing cost of providing something for free forever, which currently has a monthly payment.
We’re lagging well behind the EU average for provision of fibre broadband, and this is a way to rectify this, because the private sector has failed to deliver. The Tory proposal is to reach the same figure by 2055, or twenty-five years after Labour do. Consider the savings we can make in that time.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Dy1geo » Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:08 am

Still waiting for the answer about where the money is coming from to buy BT,

What yields on GILTS will we have to pay for any borrowing?

Also with regards BT will the Govt. take on the pension liabilities of BT.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:09 am

I look forward to booking a new broadband install if I have a new home, no doubt there will be a 10 year waiting list once Labour get their mitts on it. I shall also be checking that I don’t own shares in BT or other broadband companies, all of which presumably would lose their business. Luckily that it is only down 2% this morning shows the market thinks labour have zip chance of winning.

Note - I have concern that Johnson’s broadband pledge would be unaffordable to many punters, but full nationalisation is not the answer. No matter what the existing problems, you never ask the lunatics to run the asylum (I know it is an old expression but “clients running the mental health and wellbeing facility” doesn’t work in the same way as a metaphor).

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