General Election Is On

[Lancasterclaret]

Politician lies, in other news water is discovered to be wet.

There is a certain level of lies though normally

Johnson appears to lie every single chance he gets, which isn't a great look.

Look, if both him and Corbyn are attached to audible lie detectors on that debate tonight, Johnsons machine would be on permanent ping.

[Top Claret]

I personally don't believe a word the lot of them say. I know one thing that speaks for itself and that is that the Tories are the only party to be trusted with the economy, that is good enough for me.

[AndrewJB]

Politician lies, in other news water is discovered to be wet.

If you’re not voting, then it won’t matter. If you are voting then it matters that one politician in particular is lying all the time, and not being pulled up on it.

[RMutt]

Politician lies, in other news water is discovered to be wet.

Certainly a lot of politicians have lied down the years but with Johnson it’s almost a compulsion. Small things, big things, it makes no difference. Unfortunately People are so wrapped up in brexit they don’t mind the lying. This almost religious obsession to leave the EU has stopped some thinking rationally about what is happening around them. It’s going to be a bit of a come down if they elect the Tories just because of brexit. I predict a big disappointed hangover when they don’t notice much difference from being out of the EU, not for the better anyway. But will instead have to live with five more years of this disastrous government who have been wrecking public services for the last ten.

[Dy1geo]

Johnson offering business rate cuts today. Just like they had in their 2015 and 2017 manifestos and didn’t implement. Third time lucky?

While I will say Johnson can be “economical with the truth” the fact that the Conservatives didn’t introduce the business rates cuts was due to the electoral arithmetic in the Commons and the overriding issue of Brexit. Manifesto are written for an assumed 5 yr term in office with a working majority. When Cameron won in 2015 the issue was the Brexit referendum and May never had a majority in 2017.

If Labour came to power with a coalition there will be many manifesto commitments that they won’t bring in but if they didn’t they can’t be accused of breaking promises and lying to the electorate.

[JohnMcGreal]

Politician lies, in other news water is discovered to be wet.

The leave voting conservative Peter Oborne has written a very good piece for the Guardian about the sheer scale and frequency of Johnson's lies, and the lack of any challenge from the media. The piece also touches on the comment you made about politicians lying generally. It's worth a read.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ying-media" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[TheFamilyCat]

Certainly a lot of politicians have lied down the years but with Johnson it’s almost a compulsion. Small things, big things, it makes no difference. Unfortunately People are so wrapped up in brexit they don’t mind the lying. This almost religious obsession to leave the EU has stopped some thinking rationally about what is happening around them. It’s going to be a bit of a come down if they elect the Tories just because of brexit. I predict a big disappointed hangover when they don’t notice much difference from being out of the EU, not for the better anyway. But will instead have to live with five more years of this disastrous government who have been wrecking public services for the last ten.

Yeah, but it will all be the remoaners' fault.

[aggi]

I was a bit surprised that ClaretAndy hasn't posted this. I thought he was all over candidates being dropped due to anti-semitic comments

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... d-50468770" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Darthlaw]

Considering Corbyn cant even be honest when calling May a stupid woman on camera, I can’t really see what the point is in trusting any of them, let alone arguing one is more ‘honest’ than the other.

What I will say is that the Conservative manifesto has a better chance of being implemented as they could conceivably win a working majority. Labour’s manifesto is just chip wrapper, where promises could be bounced at the drop of a hat, easily blamed on the coalition deals they will need to establish in order to get into power. That’s before you consider the financial viability of their offers, usually concocted by Diane’s calculator.

Free internet? Ah yeah, unfortunately the SNP voted that down as we couldn’t support the outer Hebrides, so it discriminates against Scots.
2nd Referendum? Ah yeah, unfortunately we had to cut a deal with the SNP and Lib Dems so we’re just going to have to withdraw A50.
Etc, etc.

See the Lib Dems and their promises, shortly bounced during the Lib/Con coalition.

Once we have a decent center opposition, I’d happily support voting for them in lieu of the ever more right leaning Tories. The fact that I’m choosing the least worst option, as I see it, is the most depressing thing.

[martin_p]

Considering Corbyn cant even be honest when calling May a stupid woman on camera, I can’t really see what the point is in trusting any of them, let alone arguing one is more ‘honest’ than the other.

You’re right, there is no argument, it is absolutely clear that Johnson is the most dishonest of the two. You’ve had to go back about a year for a pretty innocuous and inconsequential ’lie’ from Corbyn, it’s n the last week there’s a list as long as your arm from Johnson.

[Lancasterclaret]

Considering Corbyn cant even be honest when calling May a stupid woman on camera, I can’t really see what the point is in trusting any of them, let alone arguing one is more ‘honest’ than the other.

What I will say is that the Conservative manifesto has a better chance of being implemented as they could conceivably win a working majority. Labour’s manifesto is just chip wrapper, where promises could be bounced at the drop of a hat, easily blamed on the coalition deals they will need to establish in order to get into power. That’s before you consider the financial viability of their offers, usually concocted by Diane’s calculator.

Free internet? Ah yeah, unfortunately the SNP voted that down as we couldn’t support the outer Hebrides, so it discriminates against Scots.
2nd Referendum? Ah yeah, unfortunately we had to cut a deal with the SNP and Lib Dems so we’re just going to have to withdraw A50.
Etc, etc.

See the Lib Dems and their promises, shortly bounced during the Lib/Con coalition.

Once we have a decent center opposition, I’d happily support voting for them in lieu of the ever more right leaning Tories. The fact that I’m choosing the least worst option, as I see it, is the most depressing thing.

What does astonish me is that we've been ruled by Conservative or Labour governments and they all have done alright or terrible.

With such a bewildering bad choice between Johnson or Corbyn, I'm surprised so many people are refusing to vote for anyone else.

It won't get any better if you give either democratic legitimacy you know!

[martin_p]

What does astonish me is that we've been ruled by Conservative or Labour governments and they all have done alright or terrible.

With such a bewildering bad choice between Johnson or Corbyn, I'm surprised so many people are refusing to vote for anyone else.

It won't get any better if you give either democratic legitimacy you know!

But you need to include the Lib Dems in that list. They’ve had power (or a share at least) more recently than Labour and it was pretty disastrous.

[Lancasterclaret]

But you need to include the Lib Dems in that list. They’ve had power (or a share at least) more recently than Labour and it was pretty disastrous.

As a junior partner in a coalition, which made it easy for the Conservatives to claim credit for Lib Dem policies, and made it easier for both Lab and Cons to blame the Lib Dems for everything.

It suits both of them to marginalise other parties who threaten to break up the duopoly.

Highlighted even more today when a leadership debate is only between the two main parties.

[martin_p]

As a junior partner in a coalition, which made it easy for the Conservatives to claim credit for Lib Dem policies, and made it easier for both Lab and Cons to blame the Lib Dems for everything.

It suits both of them to marginalise other parties who threaten to break up the duopoly.

They certainly take a share of the blame. It’s a fact that the Tories couldn’t have implemented their austerity programme without Lib Dem support. Now you may argue, as Nick Clegg often does, that it would have been worse without Lib Dem intervention but it was still pretty bad.

[Lancasterclaret]

They certainly take a share of the blame. It’s a fact that the Tories couldn’t have implemented their austerity programme without Lib Dem support. Now you may argue, as Nick Clegg often does, that it would have been worse without Lib Dem intervention but it was still pretty bad.

Not denying it (though do agree with Clegg and others on this) but the point is that if the choice is between Johnson and Corbyn, why are you choosing one or the other when there are others?

[AndyClaret]

I was a bit surprised that ClaretAndy hasn't posted this. I thought he was all over candidates being dropped due to anti-semitic comments

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... d-50468770" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You've got me there, back at work today, good work.

[Lancasterclaret]

Its with absolutely no surprise that we see that JOhnson isn't interested in finding out the economic impact of his new withdrawal agreement.

If we don't know how bad its going to be, then we can't blame him for it?

Is that how it works now?

[martin_p]

Not denying it (though do agree with Clegg and others on this) but the point is that if the choice is between Johnson and Corbyn, why are you choosing one or the other when there are others?

But with our current electoral system their isn’t really. You’ve got to accept that our PM will be Johnson or Corbyn and vote accordingly in your constituency to try and get the one you want in.

[Lancasterclaret]

But with our current electoral system their isn’t really. You’ve got to accept that our PM will be Johnson or Corbyn and vote accordingly in your constituency to try and get the one you want in.

But if enough people vote, then it will change.

I'm torn between voting for what I want or tactically but I'm struggling to justify a tactical vote at the moment.

[martin_p]

But if enough people vote, then it will change.

I'm torn between voting for what I want or tactically but I'm struggling to justify a tactical vote at the moment.

But that will take a shift of tens of millions of people. The biggest shift of voters in recent times was to UKIP but even they only managed to actually win a single seat (who was a sitting MP who had defected from the Tories anyway).

The system just isn’t designed to let any new parties come through, so unless we move to some sort of PR (which is unlikely given it’s the main two parties who have the most to lose that would have to make it law) we’re stuck with what we have.

[Lancasterclaret]

But that will take a shift of tens of millions of people. The biggest shift of voters in recent times was to UKIP but even they only managed to actually win a single seat (who was a sitting MP who had defected from the Tories anyway).

The system just isn’t designed to let any new parties come through, so unless we move to some sort of PR (which is unlikely given it’s the main two parties who have the most to lose that would have to make it law) we’re stuck with what we have.

And voting for the duopoly just because of that makes its self perpetuating.

[RMutt]

And voting for the duopoly just because of that makes its self perpetuating.

Well. we had our chance in the PR referendum and only 42% bothered voting.

[martin_p]

And voting for the duopoly just because of that makes its self perpetuating.

It’s the system that makes it self perpetuating, but i can see a circular argument coming here so I’ll leave that point there!

I’m a big supporter of PR but I can’t see it ever happening in this country. Even when the Lib Dems managed to force a referendum the two main parties made sure people were never going to vote for it. And let’s face it, if we were ever to get another referendum on the subject the first thing detractors would point to is the paralysis of the last 12 months using it as an example of what not having majority government leads to.

[Lancasterclaret]

Well. we had our chance in the PR referendum and only 42% bothered voting.

Because both the Labour and the Conservatives have no real interest in changing it.

Not sure that STV (was it that one? can't remember to be honest) was a easily explainable solution as well.

If only there was a really catchable slogan we could have put on the side of a bus............

[Lancasterclaret]

It’s the system that makes it self perpetuating, but i can see a circular argument coming here so I’ll leave that point there!

I’m a big supporter of PR but I can’t see it ever happening in this country. Even when the Lib Dems managed to force a referendum the two main parties made sure people were never going to vote for it. And let’s face it, if we were ever to get another referendum on the subject the first thing detractors would point to is the paralysis of the last 12 months using it as an example of what not having majority government leads to.

Agreed!

But you can my problem

I want to vote Lib Dem, but its a struggle up here.

I want a sensible Brexit option, but to get that I have to give my vote to Labour, who I know from last time will take my vote and use it as justification for whatever they want. And a lot of stuff that is argued about on here is troubling (to put it mildly!)

But if I don't tacitcally vote, I might let a Conservative MP in here, who would effectively vote for the hardest of Brexit and a PM who I wouldn't trust to run a bath.

[martin_p]

Agreed!

But you can my problem

I want to vote Lib Dem, but its a struggle up here.

I want a sensible Brexit option, but to get that I have to give my vote to Labour, who I know from last time will take my vote and use it as justification for whatever they want. And a lot of stuff that is argued about on here is troubling (to put it mildly!)

But if I don't tacitcally vote, I might let a Conservative MP in here, who would effectively vote for the hardest of Brexit and a PM who I wouldn't trust to run a bath.

I have exactly the same problem where I live. But there’s no way I’m going to contribute indirectly to electing a Tory MP so I’ll be voting Labour.

[aggi]

Well. we had our chance in the PR referendum and only 42% bothered voting.

We didn't have a PR referendum though. We had a referendum on a weak compromise that would have done very little to change the status quo.

[Darthlaw]

With such a bewildering bad choice between Johnson or Corbyn, I'm surprised so many people are refusing to vote for anyone else.

But who to vote for?

The liberal’s priced me out with revocation of A50, Brexit and UKIP are mental and the greens is a wasted vote.

Where is the centre vote these days?

As an aside, my MP is Nigel Evans who I consider a decent bloke anyway.

[Lancasterclaret]

But who to vote for?

The liberal’s priced me out with revocation of A50, Brexit and UKIP are mental and the greens is a wasted vote.

Where is the centre vote these days?

As an aside, my MP is Nigel Evans who I consider a decent bloke anyway.

Well, Brexit does complicate stuff no doubt about it.

But the only center vote is Lib Dem, though I do see the issue with them if you are a Brexiteer.

[martin_p]

But who to vote for?

The liberal’s priced me out with revocation of A50, Brexit and UKIP are mental and the greens is a wasted vote.

Where is the centre vote these days?

As an aside, my MP is Nigel Evans who I consider a decent bloke anyway.

Well Nigel Evans isn’t anywhere near the centre ground.

[RMutt]

We didn't have a PR referendum though. We had a referendum on a weak compromise that would have done very little to change the status quo.

Yes, I stand corrected, it wasn't proper PR.

[taio]

Well, Brexit does complicate stuff no doubt about it.

But the only center vote is Lib Dem, though I do see the issue with them if you are a Brexiteer.

Lib Dem is more of a centre ground vote. I've voted for them in the past. Admittedly for tactical reasons in a general election, and in the local elections because we have very good Lib Dem councillors that make a difference in communities. But the issue with Lib Dem in this general election is not just for a Brexiteer - I voted remain but I would find revoking A50 totally undemocratic to the extent that I can't believe that the Lib Dem Party aren't just offering a second referendum in very explicit terms.

[Lancasterclaret]

Lib Dem is more of a centre ground vote. I've voted for them in the past. Admittedly for tactical reasons in a general election, and in the local elections because we have very good Lib Dem councillors that make a difference in communities. But the issue with Lib Dem in this general election is not just for a Brexiteer - I voted remain but I would find revoking A50 totally undemocratic to the extent that I can't believe that the Lib Dem Party aren't just offering a second referendum in very explicit terms.

Parliament is how we run things in this country.

If the Lib Dems win a majority (stop sniggering at the back there!) they are perfectly entitled with their mandate to do that with their manifesto pledge.

Ditto, if the Conservatives win a majority and take us out of the EU without a deal, then they are perfectly entitled with their mandate to do that in line with their manifesto pledge (assuming they make it, but I bet they don't!)

I've said all this before on the Brexit thread to be honest, but stuff does get lost on there!

Summed up a lot better by Nick Tyrone

https://nicktyrone.com/why-it-is-ridicu ... ut-brexit/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[CombatClaret]

file-20191115-66917-1ltwwi6.png (73.65 KiB) Viewed 1274 times

Quite the handicap for all parties not backed by the billionaire class.

[Darthlaw]

Good article that, Lancs.

I disagree with the premise of revoking A50 but fully respect that if the Lib Dems win a majority, that would signal the intent of the general public. Their stance is clear and fair - if we win, we do this.

As I disagree with the concept, I can't aid it by voting that way, which chalks off a vote for the Lib Dems this time round even though I've voted for them in the past.

It's a fair point you raise with giving legitimacy to the status quo duopoly, which is why I raise the point of a requirement for a better standard of opposition.

[dsr]

Quite the handicap for all parties not backed by the billionaire class.

Especially with the internet being under the control of Russia.

[Lancasterclaret]

Been a good day for the Conservatives....not

Candidate in Aberdeen north suspended

And this little fella advocating work camps

https://twitter.com/SpillerOfTea/status ... 3718012930" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[RMutt]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 07846.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

One for AndyClaret and Rowls.

[AlargeClaret]

Been a good day for the Conservatives....not

Candidate in Aberdeen north suspended

And this little fella advocating work camps

https://twitter.com/SpillerOfTea/status ... 3718012930" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The loon tory guy is talking about persistent problem tenants causing hell on estates so his ranting is fair enough imo. It’s not that unlike the snowflake account of the guy who posted it on Twitter really , who seems to think the Tories are almost the third reich. Though I’m presuming the tory guy is a councillor not an mp candidate ?

[aggi]

Rumours are that Aaron Banks has had his twitter hacked and all his direct messages have been obtained. Could be interesting.

[aggi]

The loon tory guy is talking about persistent problem tenants causing hell on estates so his ranting is fair enough imo. It’s not that unlike the snowflake account of the guy who posted it on Twitter really , who seems to think the Tories are almost the third reich. Though I’m presuming the tory guy is a councillor not an mp candidate ?

No, Tory guy is a candidate.

[RMutt]

Rumours are that Aaron Banks has had his twitter hacked and all his direct messages have been obtained. Could be interesting.

Well, ‘Northern monkeys’ wouldn’t be capable of that.

[Lancasterclaret]

The loon tory guy is talking about persistent problem tenants causing hell on estates so his ranting is fair enough imo. It’s not that unlike the snowflake account of the guy who posted it on Twitter really , who seems to think the Tories are almost the third reich. Though I’m presuming the tory guy is a councillor not an mp candidate ?

PMP for a marginal seat.

I genuinely don't know where they get people like that from.

In the nicest possible way, its the kind of stuff you come out with on places like this, rather than when trying to get elected.

[FactualFrank]

Well, ‘Northern monkeys’ wouldn’t be capable of that.

Only thing I read re: hacker is someone from Bristol, although not sure how they'd know that as Twitter are unlikely to share that data so soon.

[RMutt]

Only thing I read re: hacker is someone from Bristol, although not sure how they'd know that as Twitter are unlikely to share that data so soon.

Maybe it’s Banksy.

[AlargeClaret]

No, Tory guy is a candidate.

Crikey while I do have sympathy for the poor sods in sink estates whose lives are ruined by undesirables , this really isn’t “ MP” talk at all ! Where in gods name do they get em!

[jrgbfc]

How many times will Boris utter the phrase "get Brexit done" in tonight's TV debate then?

[CrosspoolClarets]

Really looking forward to this debate.

Johnson has been itching for years to get at Corbyn, he feels the sheer force of his personality will take Corbyn apart and win over the northern and midlands working class for the first time in a generation. Those people though, are brilliant at spotting a shyster - the jury is out if Johnson is that, or genuine. I think he is genuine, he is cavalier with the truth, relies on instinct, not part of the rules based order, but I think he does care.

He is a politician who takes risks and believes he is different. He probably is.

He’s won over Varadker, won over the Tory MPs, will he now win over the north? It’ll be fascinating to find out.

[Bordeauxclaret]

Can someone sort Corbyn’s glasses out!

[Granny WeatherWax]

How many times will Boris utter the phrase "get Brexit done" in tonight's TV debate then?

3 so far.

“Strong and stable”

Trying hard to listen to their policies and ignore the fact they are both woeful leaders.