General Election Is On

[bfcjg]

If the labour party was sensible, moderate, all inclusive and economy focused they would have walked this election, the marxist momentum group have done nothing for the lower income British person they claim to be in existence for.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ing-labour" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[dsr]

2) Increase in personal allowance for lower earners has increase by an average of 6% per annum since 2014 (£9440 - 12,500)
3) Increase in personal allowance for higher earners has increased by average of 11% per annum since 2014 (£32,000 - 50,000)

I have only a vague idea where you are getting the figures from for point 3, but they're wrong.

Personal allowance for everyone earning less than £100k p.a. is the same, £12,500. But when you get over £100k, personal allowance reduces until you reach £125k, at which point you get no persoanl allowance at all.

I think you might be confusing the £32,010 figure which was the basic rate band in 2013-14? Not a personal allowance, just the amount of earnings over and above the personal allowance that you could earn at 20% tax before going into higher rates. If that was the figure you were after, it has risen to £37,500.

[aggi]

Certainly highlights the problems with modern labour that taking all that into account they will still get dicked by the tories.

Eventually the party will stop blaming everyone and everything else and start looking closer to home

I don't view the current labour party as particularly competent but it's no excuse for the repeated lies and mistruths that appear to be Tory party policy.

Even worse is the people who reckon it's ok because they support Brexit.

[aggi]

The biggest donor to the Conservatives was its Israeli born co-treasurer Ehud Sheleg, a Mayfair art gallery director who gave more than £1 million in the period between April 1 and June 30.

I've just twigged that I've met this bloke many times but I know him as Udi.

[dsr]

I cannot understand why anyone who identifies with the working person could ever vote Tory. The Tories exist to promote and protect the interests of the wealthy and the privileged. Always have done, always will do

Look at who makes up the their membership: 71% male, average age 57 and 33% live in London/south east

For one thing, the average age of adults over 25 in the UK is about 53, and 27% of the UK's population live in London and the South East, so the membership is not much different from average on those scores.

But I think the big misunderstanding is that Labour haven't caught up with the idea that the "working person" isn't what he was. It's no longer a time of slaving in the factory and getting a week in Blackpool of you're lucky. The "working man" drives a car, goes on foreign holidays, owns flashy electronic devices, in fact he has money. He doesn't want tax rises. He or she earns perhaps £600 p.w., his or her spouse earns money as well, and they don't see themselves as downtrodden poor slaving away for the benefit of the masters.

[Lancasterclaret]

Lib Dem manifesto out

(for those of you who read so you actually know what you are voting for)

https://www.libdems.org.uk/plan" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Lowbankclaret]

Yes, but 2 x a made up figure = another made up figure

Are you going to argue everyone is going to get it for free?????

[Mala591]

Do not underestimate the importance of raising the personal tax allowance to £12,500. This has been an extremely important policy for the low paid, for part time workers and most of all for those who are lucky/unlucky enough to be retired.

[AndrewJB]

If the labour party was sensible, moderate, all inclusive and economy focused they would have walked this election, the marxist momentum group have done nothing for the lower income British person they claim to be in existence for.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ing-labour" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Which of Labour’s policies do you think are turning off voters? Which policies have been drafted by Momentum people?

[Lowbankclaret]

Which of Labour’s policies do you think are turning off voters? Which policies have been drafted by Momentum people?

32 hour 4 day week, for the same pay.

[android]

Not sure what you're getting at here.

1) Figure is incorrect, the Tories have reduced income tax for higher earners from 45% to 40%
2) Increase in personal allowance for lower earners has increase by an average of 6% per annum since 2014 (£9440 - 12,500)
3) Increase in personal allowance for higher earners has increased by average of 11% per annum since 2014 (£32,000 - 50,000)

Not much help for the ordinary working person there. At the same time health, welfare and education have been significantly cut, no prizes for guessing who comes out of that worse off. Since 2010 they have also tripled university tuition fees, again no prizes for guessing who that hits hardest.

That the Tories hit the poorest hardest is beyond doubt. So I ask again why would anybody who identifies with the working man vote Tory?

1) You have got mixed up Cryssys . What I said was correct and you have got that wrong.
2) and 3) Dsr has explained the difference between an allowance and a tax band. Also, you have used a highly selective period for the personal allowance from 2014 as it had already increased by nearly 50% in the 3 years to 2014! Obviously that rate of change couldn't continue forever.

I wasn't trying to debate all the points raised by you and Steve harper and counter points such as the benefit to all those who now have a job instead of being unemployed, which we could debate forever. I was just answering Cryssy's question to point out that there are some obvious reasons for ordinary working people to vote Tory. You don't have to reach the same conclusion but it's a bit daft to suggest the reasons are stupid or somehow invalid just because you disagree.

I gave 2 examples:
1) Some historic facts on the progressive income tax changes under the Tories, which are unsurprisingly popular with the less well off. I know it goes against the Tory stereo type but inconvenient facts are still facts.
2) Some speculation that a Corbyn government will wreck the economy. You might think that vast spending and anti capitalist measures are a good idea but surely you can't dispute that it's a genuinely held view of many that it will end badly! A wrecked economy is bad news whether you are looking from the top down or the bottom up.

[fatboy47]

Lib Dem manifesto out

(for those of you who read so you actually know what you are voting for)

https://www.libdems.org.uk/plan" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Does it say much about tuition fees?

[Cryssys]

46% of the UK population don’t pay any income tax, so it would need to be those paying £40 so everyone can have it for free.
Unless we all pay a £20 broadband tax to receive free broadband.

Does that mean that 46% of the UK population earn less than £12.5K per year? No it doesn't.

Based on current ONS statistics there are 32M people in work in the UK out of a population of 67M. Which means that less than half (48%) of the population are in work.

If you're going to play politics you need to up your game.

[martin_p]

Are you going to argue everyone is going to get it for free?????

There’ll be tax rises for a small minority and the big internet companies will start having to pay their fair share. But for the vast majority there don’t seem to be any tax rises planned, so yes, free.

[Damo]

Martin actually believes there is a magic money tree

[martin_p]

1) You have got mixed up Cryssys . What I said was correct and you have got that wrong.

If you’re talking about the highest tax rate, payable over £150k, that’s come down from 50% to 45% under the Tories having been introduced by Gordon Brown. If you’re taking about the higher tax rate, currently payable over £50k, then that has remained the same under the Tories at 40% although the threshold has gone up by about £7k. So taxes certainly haven’t gone up for higher earners under the Tories as you claim.

[martin_p]

Martin actually believes there is a magic money tree

So where is all the Tory spending coming from then? It was a handy little saying when the Tories were all about austerity but it just doesn’t wash now.

[Damo]

So where is all the Tory spending coming from then? It was a handy little saying when the Tories were all about austerity but it just doesn’t wash now.

It's free martin.
Free hospitals. What's not to like

[martin_p]

It's free martin.
Free hospitals. What's not to like

Well you’ve done as much costing as the Tories then. Labour have said how they will pay for the broadband but it easier to shout ‘magic money tree’ than to engage your brain.

Are the Tories raising taxes for these new hospitals they’re supposed to be building?

[martin_p]

And now Johnson has let slip he wants the national insurance threshold to £12k which, depending on the detail, could cost up to £15bn. That’s not a great deal less than the broadband bill for Labour.

Magic money tree Damo?

[ClaretCliff]

Wow! Just been listening to another Labour MP who is even worse with numbers than Diane Abbot - Dawn Butler.

She was talking to Nick Ferrari about Labour reducing rough sleeping and in her constituency of Brent she said there are around 3,000 people sleeping on the streets. As he corrected her, there are only about 4,700 across the whole of Britain. The number in Brent is about 250.

As she was talking about reducing the numbers he asked her how many there were in Britain and she hadn't a clue.

Came out with another classic statement - "lets not take for facts what I have just said in terms of the numbers".

Unbelievable!

Here a link - http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/n ... ures-wrong

[Cryssys]

Ever heard of Project Fear Damo? Because that is exactly what the UK press and big business is playing out right now.

You believe big business when they say that Labour will be bad for economy yet when big business says Brexit will bad for the economy you choose to dismiss it as Project Fear. Can't have it both ways.

[Spiral]

I just checked BB10 4BX and virgin media are offering 39 mbps. Hardly the dark ages is it?
Obviously that's not 1gbps, but if you hang on another 10 years (the timeframe Labour have promised this to be implimented in) I'm sure it will be available. Probably wirelessly. Probably cheaper than the state sponsored stuff we are being promised.
I'd imagine the people of BB10 4BX have little need for 1gbps as it stands currently anyway. Certainly not if the extra cost is going to mean cutting back on the sort of things the average person prioritizes, day to day.
You personally could probably move house if online gaming, or whatever you need 1gbps for is so important

Considering we ran a literal university from Turf Moor I'd argue that's a rather short-sighted view to hold. What is considered high speed today will not suffice in the future. I once worked in a small-ish place where the broadband connection was terribly slow, so data backup was stored physically because the speeds weren't conducive cloud backup. The risk there is the physical backup location also being affected by disaster. Your comment about online gaming shows you aren't actually serious about this, but you've inadvertently stumbled on another benefit of higher speed broadband. The UK gaming market is worth £5.7 billion (with a 'b') and this is only growing. FTTP will make cloud streaming (not to be confused with video capture a la twitch streaming) more and more viable. That's a significantly large and ever growing industry having the ability to dramatically modernise it's method of delivery. That's significant, even if you can't see it.

[Damo]

Well you’ve done as much costing as the Tories then. Labour have said how they will pay for the broadband but it easier to shout ‘magic money tree’ than to engage your brain.

Are the Tories raising taxes for these new hospitals they’re supposed to be building?

Have they?
I know they have told us they are making google and facebook pay for some of the upkeep
I haven't seen where the £20.3 billion pounds to install it in every house is coming from.
And from what I've read, they are going to issue government bonds (magic money tree) for the compulsory purchase of openreach

[martin_p]

Have they?
I know they have told us they are making google and facebook pay for some of the upkeep
I haven't seen where the £20.3 billion pounds to install it in every house is coming from.
And from what I've read, they are going to issue government bonds (magic money tree) for the compulsory purchase of openreach

So in what way will you and I be paying for it then?

[Devils_Advocate]

[Spiral]

Have they?
I know they have told us they are making google and facebook pay for some of the upkeep
I haven't seen where the £20.3 billion pounds to install it in every house is coming from.
And from what I've read, they are going to issue government bonds (magic money tree) for the compulsory purchase of openreach

You honestly sound like you'd have objected to the electrification of the country in pre-industrial times. The essence of an investment in national infrastructure is such that the initial outlay is repaid by manifold productivity gains. If you're opposed to modernisation, don't complain of the brain-drain in 25 years time when we're as technologically unattractive as Bulgaria is today.

[JohnMcGreal]

Ever heard of Project Fear Damo? Because that is exactly what the UK press and big business is playing out right now.

You believe big business when they say that Labour will be bad for economy yet when big business says Brexit will bad for the economy you choose to dismiss it as Project Fear. Can't have it both ways.

Raising Corporation Tax by a few percentage points:

Corbyn is a crazy commie who will scare away all the businesses! We have to treat businesses with kid gloves in case they all up sticks and leave! It's a very delicate balance!

Introducing trade barriers and tariffs between us and our biggest trading partner:

This is all perfectly fine. Don't worry about it. It will all be ok.

The cognitive dissonance from Leavers on this subject is absolutely mind-blowing.

[android]

If you’re talking about the highest tax rate, payable over £150k, that’s come down from 50% to 45% under the Tories having been introduced by Gordon Brown. If you’re taking about the higher tax rate, currently payable over £50k, then that has remained the same under the Tories at 40% although the threshold has gone up by about £7k. So taxes certainly haven’t gone up for higher earners under the Tories as you claim.

Oh yes they have (well it is panto season). I was stating a fact rather than making claims - although having double checked I slightly underestimated the increase under the Tories. I need to get off this board for a bit so I will spell it out to avoid further questions.

The highest rate of income tax under the Labour government from 1997 to 2010 was 40% for all but the last month when it was "temporarily" increased to 50%. (Labour described it as "temporary" but it was also widely considered a pre-election trap)! So, if my maths is correct, the average highest rate of income tax for the highest earners in those Labour years was 40.06%, which I rounded to 40%.

The Tories left the temporary rate of 50% in place for 3 years but when it was removed they did not go back to 40% they went for 45% (the infamous "tax cut for millionaires", a line which some fell for but most could see through). So the average highest rate of income tax for the highest earners from 2010 to date is about 46.5% (trending down towards 45% and I made a slight mistake in prematurely rounding it down to 45%).

In summary, the average highest rate of income tax for the highest earners has increased from approx. 40% under Labour (1997 to 2010) to approx. 46% under the Tories (2010 to 2019).

[AndyClaret]

Amjad Bashir suspended for anti semitism, Tory candidate.

And now a Lib Dem candidate.

[AndyClaret]

Well you’ve done as much costing as the Tories then. Labour have said how they will pay for the broadband but it easier to shout ‘magic money tree’ than to engage your brain.

Are the Tories raising taxes for these new hospitals they’re supposed to be building?

Labour costed it at 20bn, BT and others say over 100bn.

[Cryssys]

Post deleted due to stupidity on my part!

[claretonthecoast1882]

Labour costed it at 20bn, BT and others say over 100bn.

To pinch a phrase from on here, what would the experts know though

[Cryssys]

I have only a vague idea where you are getting the figures from for point 3, but they're wrong.

Personal allowance for everyone earning less than £100k p.a. is the same, £12,500. But when you get over £100k, personal allowance reduces until you reach £125k, at which point you get no persoanl allowance at all.

I think you might be confusing the £32,010 figure which was the basic rate band in 2013-14? Not a personal allowance, just the amount of earnings over and above the personal allowance that you could earn at 20% tax before going into higher rates. If that was the figure you were after, it has risen to £37,500.

Apologies. You're right, my figures were wrong. Post has now been deleted.

[Lancasterclaret]

Favourite bit of news today is defo that a Brexit Party candidate is claiming that illegal immigrants are paragliding into the UK.

[Damo]

You honestly sound like you'd have objected to the electrification of the country in pre-industrial times. The essence of an investment in national infrastructure is such that the initial outlay is repaid by manifold productivity gains. If you're opposed to modernisation, don't complain of the brain-drain in 25 years time when we're as technologically unattractive as Bulgaria is today.

Do you think I'm objecting to the upgrade of the broadband network in this country?
If you do then you are not reading my comments correctly

[Rowls]

Best news so far of the GE:

https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50492998" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Boris Johnson Pledges to cut National Insurance Tax for anyone earning £12,500 or under.

Great boost for the lowest paid workers in society.

Brilliant.

[aggi]

Best news so far of the GE:

https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50492998" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Boris Johnson Pledges to cut National Insurance Tax for anyone earning £12,500 or under.

Great boost for the lowest paid workers in society.

Brilliant.

Damo is going to be really ****** off about how much this will cost.

[Rowls]

Damo is going to be really ****** off about how much this will cost.

The cost is eye-watering.

£11billion.

But it means that the lowest paid workers in society get to keep more of their own money. It's the best possible way to help the lower paid and to encourage society to value work over welfare whenever possible.

I'd consider supporting any party who made promises like this.

It's a brilliant policy.

[Dy1geo]

When Labour say they plan on increasing Corporation Tax back up to 26% will that be applicable to all businesses I.e those employing 1-50 employees?

[martin_p]

Oh yes they have (well it is panto season). I was stating a fact rather than making claims - although having double checked I slightly underestimated the increase under the Tories. I need to get off this board for a bit so I will spell it out to avoid further questions.

The highest rate of income tax under the Labour government from 1997 to 2010 was 40% for all but the last month when it was "temporarily" increased to 50%. (Labour described it as "temporary" but it was also widely considered a pre-election trap)! So, if my maths is correct, the average highest rate of income tax for the highest earners in those Labour years was 40.06%, which I rounded to 40%.

The Tories left the temporary rate of 50% in place for 3 years but when it was removed they did not go back to 40% they went for 45% (the infamous "tax cut for millionaires", a line which some fell for but most could see through). So the average highest rate of income tax for the highest earners from 2010 to date is about 46.5% (trending down towards 45% and I made a slight mistake in prematurely rounding it down to 45%).

In summary, the average highest rate of income tax for the highest earners has increased from approx. 40% under Labour (1997 to 2010) to approx. 46% under the Tories (2010 to 2019).

That’s some mighty creative accountancy! Tax rates are set in tax years that start in April. The facts are the top rate of tax was 50% when the Tories took office in the 2010/11 tax year and is 45% now. A tax cut in anyone’s language.

[martin_p]

The cost is eye-watering.

£11billion.

But it means that the lowest paid workers in society get to keep more of their own money. It's the best possible way to help the lower paid and to encourage society to value work over welfare whenever possible.

I'd consider supporting any party who made promises like this.

It's a brilliant policy.

Apparently it’ll be worth as much as 60p a week to someone on Universal Credit. Life changing!

[Dy1geo]

That’s some mighty creative accountancy! Tax rates are set in tax years that start in April. The facts are the top rate of tax was 50% when the Tories took office in the 2010/11 tax year and is 45% now. A tax cut in anyone’s language.

You cannot just focus on headline rates of tax for higher earners. There have been cuts in allowances for high earners, those earning over £120k lose their personal allowance, those earning over £210k only have an annual pension allowance of £10k rather than £40k for those earning under £150k. Families with an earner over £50k lose their child benefit at 10% for every £1k above £50k until it’s lost completely at £60k - I could go on

[Lancasterclaret]

The cost is eye-watering.

£11billion.

But it means that the lowest paid workers in society get to keep more of their own money. It's the best possible way to help the lower paid and to encourage society to value work over welfare whenever possible.

I'd consider supporting any party who made promises like this.

It's a brilliant policy.

Cost of £11 billion.

Course, its just a soundbite at the moment from Johnson at a steelworks

And as with all Conservative pledges, not a lot about how to fund it.

But its a very good policy.

One of those that you can't imagine a Conservative Party doing but I don't really care to be honest as this is a good policy.

More edits - it sounds too good to be true, which tends to mean it is. There will be some catch, there always is with the Conservatives

[quoonbeatz]

Best news so far of the GE:

https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50492998" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Boris Johnson Pledges to cut National Insurance Tax for anyone earning £12,500 or under.

Great boost for the lowest paid workers in society.

Brilliant.

Makes those lowest paid workers ineligible for state pension, maternity allowance, employment support etc. A truly great boost.

Also means less money for the nhs.

[martin_p]

You cannot just focus on headline rates of tax for higher earners. There have been cuts in allowances for high earners, those earning over £120k lose their personal allowance, those earning over £210k only have an annual pension allowance of £10k rather than £40k for those earning under £150k. Families with an earner over £50k lose their child benefit at 10% for every £1k above £50k until it’s lost completely at £60k - I could go on

You could go on, but it’d be missing the point, I.e. that it’s claimed that the income tax rate for earnings over £150k has gone up from 40% to 45% under the Tories, which isn’t true.

[AlargeClaret]

When Labour say they plan on increasing Corporation Tax back up to 26% will that be applicable to all businesses I.e those employing 1-50 employees?

Is this rise to 26% an official policy statement ? Or just some crazed “ Corbynomics”?

[Dy1geo]

Is this rise to 26% an official policy statement ? Or just some crazed “ Corbynomics”?

Labour has said it would reverse the corporation tax cuts back up to 26%, taken from Channel 4 factcheck

[Dy1geo]

Makes those lowest paid workers ineligible for state pension, maternity allowance, employment support etc. A truly great boost.

Also means less money for the nhs.

There is a difference between the level you qualify for state pension etc which is the lower earnings limit of £118 a week whereas you don’t start paying National Insurance until £166 a week. So unless the Tories plan on increasing the LEL to £12k those lowest paid workers will still be eligible

[quoonbeatz]

There is a difference between the level you qualify for state pension etc which is the lower earnings limit of £118 a week whereas you don’t start paying National Insurance until £166 a week. So unless the Tories plan on increasing the LEL to £12k those lowest paid workers will still be eligible

Yes apparently so, wasn't aware of that. Interesting policy then and the first time in their history they'd be doing something beneficial to poorer people off their own back.

The magic money tree continues to sprout forth.