General Election Is On
Re: General Election Is On
If the labour party was sensible, moderate, all inclusive and economy focused they would have walked this election, the marxist momentum group have done nothing for the lower income British person they claim to be in existence for.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ing-labour" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ing-labour" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by bfcjg on Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: General Election Is On
I have only a vague idea where you are getting the figures from for point 3, but they're wrong.Cryssys wrote:2) Increase in personal allowance for lower earners has increase by an average of 6% per annum since 2014 (£9440 - 12,500)
3) Increase in personal allowance for higher earners has increased by average of 11% per annum since 2014 (£32,000 - 50,000)
Personal allowance for everyone earning less than £100k p.a. is the same, £12,500. But when you get over £100k, personal allowance reduces until you reach £125k, at which point you get no persoanl allowance at all.
I think you might be confusing the £32,010 figure which was the basic rate band in 2013-14? Not a personal allowance, just the amount of earnings over and above the personal allowance that you could earn at 20% tax before going into higher rates. If that was the figure you were after, it has risen to £37,500.
Re: General Election Is On
I don't view the current labour party as particularly competent but it's no excuse for the repeated lies and mistruths that appear to be Tory party policy.claretonthecoast1882 wrote:Certainly highlights the problems with modern labour that taking all that into account they will still get dicked by the tories.
Eventually the party will stop blaming everyone and everything else and start looking closer to home
Even worse is the people who reckon it's ok because they support Brexit.
Re: General Election Is On
I've just twigged that I've met this bloke many times but I know him as Udi.Cryssys wrote: The biggest donor to the Conservatives was its Israeli born co-treasurer Ehud Sheleg, a Mayfair art gallery director who gave more than £1 million in the period between April 1 and June 30.
Re: General Election Is On
For one thing, the average age of adults over 25 in the UK is about 53, and 27% of the UK's population live in London and the South East, so the membership is not much different from average on those scores.Cryssys wrote:I cannot understand why anyone who identifies with the working person could ever vote Tory. The Tories exist to promote and protect the interests of the wealthy and the privileged. Always have done, always will do
Look at who makes up the their membership: 71% male, average age 57 and 33% live in London/south east
But I think the big misunderstanding is that Labour haven't caught up with the idea that the "working person" isn't what he was. It's no longer a time of slaving in the factory and getting a week in Blackpool of you're lucky. The "working man" drives a car, goes on foreign holidays, owns flashy electronic devices, in fact he has money. He doesn't want tax rises. He or she earns perhaps £600 p.w., his or her spouse earns money as well, and they don't see themselves as downtrodden poor slaving away for the benefit of the masters.
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Re: General Election Is On
Lib Dem manifesto out
(for those of you who read so you actually know what you are voting for)
https://www.libdems.org.uk/plan" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(for those of you who read so you actually know what you are voting for)
https://www.libdems.org.uk/plan" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: General Election Is On
Are you going to argue everyone is going to get it for free?????martin_p wrote:Yes, but 2 x a made up figure = another made up figure
Re: General Election Is On
Do not underestimate the importance of raising the personal tax allowance to £12,500. This has been an extremely important policy for the low paid, for part time workers and most of all for those who are lucky/unlucky enough to be retired.
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Re: General Election Is On
Which of Labour’s policies do you think are turning off voters? Which policies have been drafted by Momentum people?bfcjg wrote:If the labour party was sensible, moderate, all inclusive and economy focused they would have walked this election, the marxist momentum group have done nothing for the lower income British person they claim to be in existence for.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ing-labour" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: General Election Is On
AndrewJB wrote:Which of Labour’s policies do you think are turning off voters? Which policies have been drafted by Momentum people?
32 hour 4 day week, for the same pay.
Re: General Election Is On
1) You have got mixed up Cryssys . What I said was correct and you have got that wrong.Cryssys wrote:Not sure what you're getting at here.
1) Figure is incorrect, the Tories have reduced income tax for higher earners from 45% to 40%
2) Increase in personal allowance for lower earners has increase by an average of 6% per annum since 2014 (£9440 - 12,500)
3) Increase in personal allowance for higher earners has increased by average of 11% per annum since 2014 (£32,000 - 50,000)
Not much help for the ordinary working person there. At the same time health, welfare and education have been significantly cut, no prizes for guessing who comes out of that worse off. Since 2010 they have also tripled university tuition fees, again no prizes for guessing who that hits hardest.
That the Tories hit the poorest hardest is beyond doubt. So I ask again why would anybody who identifies with the working man vote Tory?
2) and 3) Dsr has explained the difference between an allowance and a tax band. Also, you have used a highly selective period for the personal allowance from 2014 as it had already increased by nearly 50% in the 3 years to 2014! Obviously that rate of change couldn't continue forever.
I wasn't trying to debate all the points raised by you and Steve harper and counter points such as the benefit to all those who now have a job instead of being unemployed, which we could debate forever. I was just answering Cryssy's question to point out that there are some obvious reasons for ordinary working people to vote Tory. You don't have to reach the same conclusion but it's a bit daft to suggest the reasons are stupid or somehow invalid just because you disagree.
I gave 2 examples:
1) Some historic facts on the progressive income tax changes under the Tories, which are unsurprisingly popular with the less well off. I know it goes against the Tory stereo type but inconvenient facts are still facts.
2) Some speculation that a Corbyn government will wreck the economy. You might think that vast spending and anti capitalist measures are a good idea but surely you can't dispute that it's a genuinely held view of many that it will end badly! A wrecked economy is bad news whether you are looking from the top down or the bottom up.
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Re: General Election Is On
Lancasterclaret wrote:Lib Dem manifesto out
(for those of you who read so you actually know what you are voting for)
https://www.libdems.org.uk/plan" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Does it say much about tuition fees?
Re: General Election Is On
Does that mean that 46% of the UK population earn less than £12.5K per year? No it doesn't.Lowbankclaret wrote:46% of the UK population don’t pay any income tax, so it would need to be those paying £40 so everyone can have it for free.
Unless we all pay a £20 broadband tax to receive free broadband.
Based on current ONS statistics there are 32M people in work in the UK out of a population of 67M. Which means that less than half (48%) of the population are in work.
If you're going to play politics you need to up your game.
Re: General Election Is On
There’ll be tax rises for a small minority and the big internet companies will start having to pay their fair share. But for the vast majority there don’t seem to be any tax rises planned, so yes, free.Lowbankclaret wrote:Are you going to argue everyone is going to get it for free?????
Re: General Election Is On
Martin actually believes there is a magic money tree
Re: General Election Is On
If you’re talking about the highest tax rate, payable over £150k, that’s come down from 50% to 45% under the Tories having been introduced by Gordon Brown. If you’re taking about the higher tax rate, currently payable over £50k, then that has remained the same under the Tories at 40% although the threshold has gone up by about £7k. So taxes certainly haven’t gone up for higher earners under the Tories as you claim.android wrote:1) You have got mixed up Cryssys . What I said was correct and you have got that wrong.
This user liked this post: Cryssys
Re: General Election Is On
So where is all the Tory spending coming from then? It was a handy little saying when the Tories were all about austerity but it just doesn’t wash now.Damo wrote:Martin actually believes there is a magic money tree
Re: General Election Is On
It's free martin.martin_p wrote:So where is all the Tory spending coming from then? It was a handy little saying when the Tories were all about austerity but it just doesn’t wash now.
Free hospitals. What's not to like
Re: General Election Is On
Well you’ve done as much costing as the Tories then. Labour have said how they will pay for the broadband but it easier to shout ‘magic money tree’ than to engage your brain.Damo wrote:It's free martin.
Free hospitals. What's not to like
Are the Tories raising taxes for these new hospitals they’re supposed to be building?
Re: General Election Is On
And now Johnson has let slip he wants the national insurance threshold to £12k which, depending on the detail, could cost up to £15bn. That’s not a great deal less than the broadband bill for Labour.
Magic money tree Damo?
Magic money tree Damo?
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Re: General Election Is On
Wow! Just been listening to another Labour MP who is even worse with numbers than Diane Abbot - Dawn Butler.
She was talking to Nick Ferrari about Labour reducing rough sleeping and in her constituency of Brent she said there are around 3,000 people sleeping on the streets. As he corrected her, there are only about 4,700 across the whole of Britain. The number in Brent is about 250.
As she was talking about reducing the numbers he asked her how many there were in Britain and she hadn't a clue.
Came out with another classic statement - "lets not take for facts what I have just said in terms of the numbers".
Unbelievable!
Here a link - http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/n ... ures-wrong
She was talking to Nick Ferrari about Labour reducing rough sleeping and in her constituency of Brent she said there are around 3,000 people sleeping on the streets. As he corrected her, there are only about 4,700 across the whole of Britain. The number in Brent is about 250.
As she was talking about reducing the numbers he asked her how many there were in Britain and she hadn't a clue.
Came out with another classic statement - "lets not take for facts what I have just said in terms of the numbers".
Unbelievable!
Here a link - http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/n ... ures-wrong
Re: General Election Is On
Ever heard of Project Fear Damo? Because that is exactly what the UK press and big business is playing out right now.
You believe big business when they say that Labour will be bad for economy yet when big business says Brexit will bad for the economy you choose to dismiss it as Project Fear. Can't have it both ways.
You believe big business when they say that Labour will be bad for economy yet when big business says Brexit will bad for the economy you choose to dismiss it as Project Fear. Can't have it both ways.
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Re: General Election Is On
Considering we ran a literal university from Turf Moor I'd argue that's a rather short-sighted view to hold. What is considered high speed today will not suffice in the future. I once worked in a small-ish place where the broadband connection was terribly slow, so data backup was stored physically because the speeds weren't conducive cloud backup. The risk there is the physical backup location also being affected by disaster. Your comment about online gaming shows you aren't actually serious about this, but you've inadvertently stumbled on another benefit of higher speed broadband. The UK gaming market is worth £5.7 billion (with a 'b') and this is only growing. FTTP will make cloud streaming (not to be confused with video capture a la twitch streaming) more and more viable. That's a significantly large and ever growing industry having the ability to dramatically modernise it's method of delivery. That's significant, even if you can't see it.Damo wrote:I just checked BB10 4BX and virgin media are offering 39 mbps. Hardly the dark ages is it?
Obviously that's not 1gbps, but if you hang on another 10 years (the timeframe Labour have promised this to be implimented in) I'm sure it will be available. Probably wirelessly. Probably cheaper than the state sponsored stuff we are being promised.
I'd imagine the people of BB10 4BX have little need for 1gbps as it stands currently anyway. Certainly not if the extra cost is going to mean cutting back on the sort of things the average person prioritizes, day to day.
You personally could probably move house if online gaming, or whatever you need 1gbps for is so important
Re: General Election Is On
Have they?martin_p wrote:Well you’ve done as much costing as the Tories then. Labour have said how they will pay for the broadband but it easier to shout ‘magic money tree’ than to engage your brain.
Are the Tories raising taxes for these new hospitals they’re supposed to be building?
I know they have told us they are making google and facebook pay for some of the upkeep
I haven't seen where the £20.3 billion pounds to install it in every house is coming from.
And from what I've read, they are going to issue government bonds (magic money tree) for the compulsory purchase of openreach
Re: General Election Is On
So in what way will you and I be paying for it then?Damo wrote:Have they?
I know they have told us they are making google and facebook pay for some of the upkeep
I haven't seen where the £20.3 billion pounds to install it in every house is coming from.
And from what I've read, they are going to issue government bonds (magic money tree) for the compulsory purchase of openreach
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Re: General Election Is On
You honestly sound like you'd have objected to the electrification of the country in pre-industrial times. The essence of an investment in national infrastructure is such that the initial outlay is repaid by manifold productivity gains. If you're opposed to modernisation, don't complain of the brain-drain in 25 years time when we're as technologically unattractive as Bulgaria is today.Damo wrote:Have they?
I know they have told us they are making google and facebook pay for some of the upkeep
I haven't seen where the £20.3 billion pounds to install it in every house is coming from.
And from what I've read, they are going to issue government bonds (magic money tree) for the compulsory purchase of openreach
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Re: General Election Is On
Raising Corporation Tax by a few percentage points:Cryssys wrote:Ever heard of Project Fear Damo? Because that is exactly what the UK press and big business is playing out right now.
You believe big business when they say that Labour will be bad for economy yet when big business says Brexit will bad for the economy you choose to dismiss it as Project Fear. Can't have it both ways.
Corbyn is a crazy commie who will scare away all the businesses! We have to treat businesses with kid gloves in case they all up sticks and leave! It's a very delicate balance!
Introducing trade barriers and tariffs between us and our biggest trading partner:
This is all perfectly fine. Don't worry about it. It will all be ok.
The cognitive dissonance from Leavers on this subject is absolutely mind-blowing.
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Re: General Election Is On
Oh yes they have (well it is panto season). I was stating a fact rather than making claims - although having double checked I slightly underestimated the increase under the Tories. I need to get off this board for a bit so I will spell it out to avoid further questions.martin_p wrote:If you’re talking about the highest tax rate, payable over £150k, that’s come down from 50% to 45% under the Tories having been introduced by Gordon Brown. If you’re taking about the higher tax rate, currently payable over £50k, then that has remained the same under the Tories at 40% although the threshold has gone up by about £7k. So taxes certainly haven’t gone up for higher earners under the Tories as you claim.
The highest rate of income tax under the Labour government from 1997 to 2010 was 40% for all but the last month when it was "temporarily" increased to 50%. (Labour described it as "temporary" but it was also widely considered a pre-election trap)! So, if my maths is correct, the average highest rate of income tax for the highest earners in those Labour years was 40.06%, which I rounded to 40%.
The Tories left the temporary rate of 50% in place for 3 years but when it was removed they did not go back to 40% they went for 45% (the infamous "tax cut for millionaires", a line which some fell for but most could see through). So the average highest rate of income tax for the highest earners from 2010 to date is about 46.5% (trending down towards 45% and I made a slight mistake in prematurely rounding it down to 45%).
In summary, the average highest rate of income tax for the highest earners has increased from approx. 40% under Labour (1997 to 2010) to approx. 46% under the Tories (2010 to 2019).
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Re: General Election Is On
And now a Lib Dem candidate.AndyClaret wrote:Amjad Bashir suspended for anti semitism, Tory candidate.
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Re: General Election Is On
Labour costed it at 20bn, BT and others say over 100bn.martin_p wrote:Well you’ve done as much costing as the Tories then. Labour have said how they will pay for the broadband but it easier to shout ‘magic money tree’ than to engage your brain.
Are the Tories raising taxes for these new hospitals they’re supposed to be building?
Re: General Election Is On
Post deleted due to stupidity on my part!
Last edited by Cryssys on Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: General Election Is On
AndyClaret wrote:Labour costed it at 20bn, BT and others say over 100bn.
To pinch a phrase from on here, what would the experts know though
Re: General Election Is On
dsr wrote:I have only a vague idea where you are getting the figures from for point 3, but they're wrong.
Personal allowance for everyone earning less than £100k p.a. is the same, £12,500. But when you get over £100k, personal allowance reduces until you reach £125k, at which point you get no persoanl allowance at all.
I think you might be confusing the £32,010 figure which was the basic rate band in 2013-14? Not a personal allowance, just the amount of earnings over and above the personal allowance that you could earn at 20% tax before going into higher rates. If that was the figure you were after, it has risen to £37,500.
Apologies. You're right, my figures were wrong. Post has now been deleted.
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Re: General Election Is On
Favourite bit of news today is defo that a Brexit Party candidate is claiming that illegal immigrants are paragliding into the UK.
Re: General Election Is On
Do you think I'm objecting to the upgrade of the broadband network in this country?Spiral wrote:You honestly sound like you'd have objected to the electrification of the country in pre-industrial times. The essence of an investment in national infrastructure is such that the initial outlay is repaid by manifold productivity gains. If you're opposed to modernisation, don't complain of the brain-drain in 25 years time when we're as technologically unattractive as Bulgaria is today.
If you do then you are not reading my comments correctly
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Re: General Election Is On
Best news so far of the GE:
https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50492998" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Boris Johnson Pledges to cut National Insurance Tax for anyone earning £12,500 or under.
Great boost for the lowest paid workers in society.
Brilliant.
https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50492998" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Boris Johnson Pledges to cut National Insurance Tax for anyone earning £12,500 or under.
Great boost for the lowest paid workers in society.
Brilliant.
Re: General Election Is On
Damo is going to be really ****** off about how much this will cost.Rowls wrote:Best news so far of the GE:
https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50492998" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Boris Johnson Pledges to cut National Insurance Tax for anyone earning £12,500 or under.
Great boost for the lowest paid workers in society.
Brilliant.
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Re: General Election Is On
The cost is eye-watering.aggi wrote:Damo is going to be really ****** off about how much this will cost.
£11billion.
But it means that the lowest paid workers in society get to keep more of their own money. It's the best possible way to help the lower paid and to encourage society to value work over welfare whenever possible.
I'd consider supporting any party who made promises like this.
It's a brilliant policy.
Re: General Election Is On
When Labour say they plan on increasing Corporation Tax back up to 26% will that be applicable to all businesses I.e those employing 1-50 employees?
Re: General Election Is On
That’s some mighty creative accountancy! Tax rates are set in tax years that start in April. The facts are the top rate of tax was 50% when the Tories took office in the 2010/11 tax year and is 45% now. A tax cut in anyone’s language.android wrote:Oh yes they have (well it is panto season). I was stating a fact rather than making claims - although having double checked I slightly underestimated the increase under the Tories. I need to get off this board for a bit so I will spell it out to avoid further questions.
The highest rate of income tax under the Labour government from 1997 to 2010 was 40% for all but the last month when it was "temporarily" increased to 50%. (Labour described it as "temporary" but it was also widely considered a pre-election trap)! So, if my maths is correct, the average highest rate of income tax for the highest earners in those Labour years was 40.06%, which I rounded to 40%.
The Tories left the temporary rate of 50% in place for 3 years but when it was removed they did not go back to 40% they went for 45% (the infamous "tax cut for millionaires", a line which some fell for but most could see through). So the average highest rate of income tax for the highest earners from 2010 to date is about 46.5% (trending down towards 45% and I made a slight mistake in prematurely rounding it down to 45%).
In summary, the average highest rate of income tax for the highest earners has increased from approx. 40% under Labour (1997 to 2010) to approx. 46% under the Tories (2010 to 2019).
Re: General Election Is On
Apparently it’ll be worth as much as 60p a week to someone on Universal Credit. Life changing!Rowls wrote:The cost is eye-watering.
£11billion.
But it means that the lowest paid workers in society get to keep more of their own money. It's the best possible way to help the lower paid and to encourage society to value work over welfare whenever possible.
I'd consider supporting any party who made promises like this.
It's a brilliant policy.
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Re: General Election Is On
You cannot just focus on headline rates of tax for higher earners. There have been cuts in allowances for high earners, those earning over £120k lose their personal allowance, those earning over £210k only have an annual pension allowance of £10k rather than £40k for those earning under £150k. Families with an earner over £50k lose their child benefit at 10% for every £1k above £50k until it’s lost completely at £60k - I could go onmartin_p wrote:That’s some mighty creative accountancy! Tax rates are set in tax years that start in April. The facts are the top rate of tax was 50% when the Tories took office in the 2010/11 tax year and is 45% now. A tax cut in anyone’s language.
Last edited by Dy1geo on Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: General Election Is On
Cost of £11 billion.Rowls wrote:The cost is eye-watering.
£11billion.
But it means that the lowest paid workers in society get to keep more of their own money. It's the best possible way to help the lower paid and to encourage society to value work over welfare whenever possible.
I'd consider supporting any party who made promises like this.
It's a brilliant policy.
Course, its just a soundbite at the moment from Johnson at a steelworks
And as with all Conservative pledges, not a lot about how to fund it.
But its a very good policy.
One of those that you can't imagine a Conservative Party doing but I don't really care to be honest as this is a good policy.
More edits - it sounds too good to be true, which tends to mean it is. There will be some catch, there always is with the Conservatives
Last edited by Lancasterclaret on Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: General Election Is On
Makes those lowest paid workers ineligible for state pension, maternity allowance, employment support etc. A truly great boost.Rowls wrote:Best news so far of the GE:
https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50492998" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Boris Johnson Pledges to cut National Insurance Tax for anyone earning £12,500 or under.
Great boost for the lowest paid workers in society.
Brilliant.
Also means less money for the nhs.
Last edited by quoonbeatz on Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: General Election Is On
You could go on, but it’d be missing the point, I.e. that it’s claimed that the income tax rate for earnings over £150k has gone up from 40% to 45% under the Tories, which isn’t true.Dy1geo wrote:You cannot just focus on headline rates of tax for higher earners. There have been cuts in allowances for high earners, those earning over £120k lose their personal allowance, those earning over £210k only have an annual pension allowance of £10k rather than £40k for those earning under £150k. Families with an earner over £50k lose their child benefit at 10% for every £1k above £50k until it’s lost completely at £60k - I could go on
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Re: General Election Is On
Is this rise to 26% an official policy statement ? Or just some crazed “ Corbynomics”?Dy1geo wrote:When Labour say they plan on increasing Corporation Tax back up to 26% will that be applicable to all businesses I.e those employing 1-50 employees?
Re: General Election Is On
Labour has said it would reverse the corporation tax cuts back up to 26%, taken from Channel 4 factcheckAlargeClaret wrote:Is this rise to 26% an official policy statement ? Or just some crazed “ Corbynomics”?
Re: General Election Is On
There is a difference between the level you qualify for state pension etc which is the lower earnings limit of £118 a week whereas you don’t start paying National Insurance until £166 a week. So unless the Tories plan on increasing the LEL to £12k those lowest paid workers will still be eligiblequoonbeatz wrote:Makes those lowest paid workers ineligible for state pension, maternity allowance, employment support etc. A truly great boost.
Also means less money for the nhs.
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Re: General Election Is On
Yes apparently so, wasn't aware of that. Interesting policy then and the first time in their history they'd be doing something beneficial to poorer people off their own back.Dy1geo wrote:There is a difference between the level you qualify for state pension etc which is the lower earnings limit of £118 a week whereas you don’t start paying National Insurance until £166 a week. So unless the Tories plan on increasing the LEL to £12k those lowest paid workers will still be eligible
The magic money tree continues to sprout forth.