General Election Is On

[Lowbankclaret]

Does that mean that 46% of the UK population earn less than £12.5K per year? No it doesn't.

Based on current ONS statistics there are 32M people in work in the UK out of a population of 67M. Which means that less than half (48%) of the population are in work.

If you're going to play politics you need to up your game.

According to this article it’s 43%.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -PAYE.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And this, 3% out from memory.

https://economia.icaew.com/news/august- ... tax-income" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


And this one one all from IFS figures.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/9667319/ ... ncome-tax/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Lowbankclaret]

Favourite bit of news today is defo that a Brexit Party candidate is claiming that illegal immigrants are paragliding into the UK.

Which numpty said that, idiot.

[Lowbankclaret]

Apparently it’ll be worth as much as 60p a week to someone on Universal Credit. Life changing!

So the poorest get a £465 a year boost (eventually) and Labour supporters attack it.

I don’t get it.

As I understand it when your on UC if you earn more in your pocket your UC reduces. So no surprise they don’t get much benefit. I might be thinking of working tax credit .

But someone will correct me.

[Lowbankclaret]

Makes those lowest paid workers ineligible for state pension, maternity allowance, employment support etc. A truly great boost.

Also means less money for the nhs.

No you get credit for it as your not earning enough, like people who stay home and look after children get credited.

It’s not going to make you ineligible for what you have said.

[tiger76]

Yes apparently so, wasn't aware of that. Interesting policy then and the first time in their history they'd be doing something beneficial to poorer people off their own back.

The magic money tree continues to sprout forth.

Whether it's intentional or not this policy could play well in northern seats which the Tories will need to gain.

Quite how they're going to finance it in the event of a hard brexit/no deal brexit is another

[Lowbankclaret]

Yes apparently so, wasn't aware of that. Interesting policy then and the first time in their history they'd be doing something beneficial to poorer people off their own back.

The magic money tree continues to sprout forth.

That’s not true either.


Tories have increased the lower rate of tax from approx £6000 to £12.500 which means 43% of adults don’t pay income tax.

Don’t like ageing for the Tories but this has helped low paid workers.

[Cryssys]

According to this article it’s 43%.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -PAYE.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And this, 3% out from memory.

https://economia.icaew.com/news/august- ... tax-income" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And this one one all from IFS figures.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/9667319/ ... ncome-tax/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Who are you more inclined to believe, the Daily Mail/Sun or the independent ONS?

What both the Sun and the Mail are doing is deliberately misleading people by quoting figures based on the total UK population rather than the working population. If you look at the Suns figures it talks about the adult population which will include 12M pensioners:

"That means around 21 million people - or 43 per cent of the adult population - earn less than £12,500 a year - the rate at which you start paying income tax."

[Spiral]

Do you think I'm objecting to the upgrade of the broadband network in this country?
If you do then you are not reading my comments correctly

So you're in favour of improving broadband infrastructure...smashing! That's quite the climb down from "pie in the sky" is it not? Look, I know you're practically operating on partisan reflex, I can forgive folk for that, but it's nice to see you're now actually engaging with the argument. Our differences are now on scale, funding and organisation of that infrastructure investment, which is a long way from writing the policy off, as you were doing, as a fantasy, and labelling (or at least insinuating) its advocates as stupid, so well done on that.

[quoonbeatz]

That’s not true either.


Tories have increased the lower rate of tax from approx £6000 to £12.500 which means 43% of adults don’t pay income tax.

Don’t like ageing for the Tories but this has helped low paid workers.

"Off their own back"

That one was instigated by the lib dems.

[quoonbeatz]

Whether it's intentional or not this policy could play well in northern seats which the Tories will need to gain.

Quite how they're going to finance it in the event of a hard brexit/no deal brexit is another

Doubt they will finance it post-brexit it will probably get shelved.

[android]

That’s some mighty creative accountancy! Tax rates are set in tax years that start in April. The facts are the top rate of tax was 50% when the Tories took office in the 2010/11 tax year and is 45% now. A tax cut in anyone’s language.

No creativity on my part Martin just plain facts! Too bad if you didn't understand. My guess is that you do understand but you are just sharing a bit of the apparent fact phobia on here whenever the inconvenient truth of the progressive tax changes under the Tories get a mention.

[Lancasterclaret]

No creativity on my part Martin just plain facts! Too bad if you didn't understand. My guess is that you do understand but you are just sharing a bit of the apparent fact phobia on here whenever the inconvenient truth of the progressive tax changes under the Tories get a mention.

I hate to keep bringing this up, but who bought it in?

[tiger76]

Doubt they will finance it post-brexit it will probably get shelved.

I'm sure it won't be the only pledge reneged on,until we see the official Conservative manifesto it's all speculation.

But i do recall Sajid Javid mentioning an emergency budget in the event of brexit,so plenty of wriggle room post-election for some u-turns.

[martin_p]

No creativity on my part Martin just plain facts! Too bad if you didn't understand. My guess is that you do understand but you are just sharing a bit of the apparent fact phobia on here whenever the inconvenient truth of the progressive tax changes under the Tories get a mention.

So what was the upper rate of income tax when the coalition government got in in May 2010 (2010-11 tax year)?

[Mala591]

Who are you more inclined to believe, the Daily Mail/Sun or the independent ONS?

What both the Sun and the Mail are doing is deliberately misleading people by quoting figures based on the total UK population rather than the working population. If you look at the Suns figures it talks about the adult population which will include 12M pensioners:

"That means around 21 million people - or 43 per cent of the adult population - earn less than £12,500 a year - the rate at which you start paying income tax."

It's still a bit of a shock that 43% of the UK adult population have an annual income less than £12,500. How do they manage to live 'a reasonably enjoyable life' with such a low income?

[Cryssys]

It's still a bit of a shock that 43% of the UK adult population have an annual income less than £12,500. How do they manage to live 'a reasonably enjoyable life' with such a low income?

It's a shocking statistic and one that we, and the government, should be ashamed of. Pity the Sun and The Mail don't concentrate on that rather than campaigning against increases in tax rates. Alternatively they could support increases in the minimum wage. Instead they want tax cuts for the well off.

[Darthlaw]

It's still a bit of a shock that 43% of the UK adult population have an annual income less than £12,500. How do they manage to live 'a reasonably enjoyable life' with such a low income?

Does that include part time staff?

[randomclaret2]

Anyone over 21 who works full time earns in excess of £12,500

[Cryssys]

Best news so far of the GE:
https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50492998" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Boris Johnson Pledges to cut National Insurance Tax for anyone earning £12,500 or under.

Great boost for the lowest paid workers in society.

Brilliant.

As a headline it's great, but Boris Johnson later confirmed to the BBC it would be raised to £9,500 in the first budget of a Tory government, with no timetable for the additional £3,000.

It's bit like their pledge to raise the minimum wage to £10.50. Sounds impressive until you read the small print which says it will be over five years. Which works out at an average of 5% a year.

Soundbites for the gullible.

[randomclaret2]

Id be delighted with a pay increase of 5% each year for each of the next 5 years

[Cryssys]

Anyone over 21 who works full time earns in excess of £12,500

And your point is?

Many people don't work full time do they. Working one hour a week counts as being employed so far as the ONS is concerned.

[Cryssys]

Id be delighted with a pay increase of 5% each year for each of the next 5 years

And how much do you earn? Less than 17K a year?

[quoonbeatz]

As a headline it's great, but Boris Johnson later confirmed to the BBC it would be raised to £9,500 in the first budget of a Tory government, with no timetable for the additional £3,000.

It's bit like their pledge to raise the minimum wage to £10.50. Sounds impressive until you read the small print which says it will be over five years. Which works out at an average of 5% a year.

Soundbites for the gullible.

Yep, predictable as ever.

[Damo]

So you're in favour of improving broadband infrastructure...smashing! That's quite the climb down from "pie in the sky" is it not? Look, I know you're practically operating on partisan reflex, I can forgive folk for that, but it's nice to see you're now actually engaging with the argument. Our differences are now on scale, funding and organisation of that infrastructure investment, which is a long way from writing the policy off, as you were doing, as a fantasy, and labelling (or at least insinuating) its advocates as stupid, so well done on that.

I'm wasnt insinuating people advocating it being upgraded as stupid either.
People who believe it's not going to cost the tax payer are a different matter.
I dont think anyone with no dependants, with not many years left of their working lives are stupid either.
All this, I'm sure you will agree, is online with my original post, which some of got rather angry about

[Rowls]

Apparently it’ll be worth as much as 60p a week to someone on Universal Credit. Life changing!

Worth ~£400.00/year to somebody on a low paid £12,000/year.

It’s the kind of amount of money that might make the difference between it being worthwhile taking a job or staying on benefit.

So yes, you’re right - that is the kind of thing which can be life changing.

It’s the reason why the UK has experienced a jobs miracle these past 9 years and if we can cut tax for the low paid again we can do even more to ensure that work pays.

[Devils_Advocate]

According to IFS studies Johnsons changes to NI threshold would most benefit the richest in our society

[Cryssys]

Worth ~£400.00/year to somebody on a low paid £12,000/year.

It’s the kind of amount of money that might make the difference between it being worthwhile taking a job or staying on benefit.

So yes, you’re right - that is the kind of thing which can be life changing.

It’s the reason why the UK has experienced a jobs miracle these past 9 years and if we can cut tax for the low paid again we can do even more to ensure that work pays.

Care to justify the £400 figure?

NI rates are currently 12% on earnings over £8632 so raising the threshold to £9500 would save someone £100 not £400 per year. Life changing?

As for the jobs miracle, the only thing that's miraculous is the way the figures have been manipulated.

[FactualFrank]

Care to justify the £400 figure?

NI rates are currently 12% on earnings over £8632 so raising the threshold to £9500 would save someone £100 not £400 per year. Life changing?

As for the jobs miracle, the only thing that's miraculous is the way the figures have been manipulated.

It appears that it's actually around £85, not £100, so even worse. The £400 (they're saying £500) is if/when it's raised to £12500 - which I wouldn't hold my breath over.

[martin_p]

I'm wasnt insinuating people advocating it being upgraded as stupid either.
People who believe it's not going to cost the tax payer are a different matter.
I dont think anyone with no dependants, with not many years left of their working lives are stupid either.
All this, I'm sure you will agree, is online with my original post, which some of got rather angry about

You were saying it’d cost everyone an extra £20 a week tax. Now you may have been exaggerating but the Labour plan is that only the top earners pay extra tax. So everyone else will save on their broadband bill without a tax hike.

If you’re arguing that there’d need to be a tax rise for everyone for Labours broadband bill then what will the tax rises need to be to fund the Tory national insurance plans?

[android]

So what was the upper rate of income tax when the coalition government got in in May 2010 (2010-11 tax year)?

Come on Martin it's not that tricky! It was 50%, as it had been for 30 whole days of the Labour government from 1997 to 2010. For 99.4% of their time in office, the top rate under Labour was 40%, but let's focus on the final 30 days (0.6% of their time in office) when it was 50%! 3 years later the Tories reversed what the Labour government described as a 10% "temporary" increase in the top rate and increased the long term top rate to 45%. You prefer to describe this as a 5% cut from the temporary increase to 50%, which is absolutely fine if that's all you want to think about. Describe it however you like Martin but it is not going to change the fact that the tax take from the highest earners has increased significantly under the Tories. The reason for this is the fact that the average highest rate of tax for high earners under Labour was 40% compared to an average to date of 46% under the Tories.

The increase in personal allowance and reduction in pension tax relief both disproportionately benefitting low earners has also been mentioned. Now there is the planned increase in the NIC threshold in a further progressive change. I suppose I had better not tell you what the Tories have done in terms of huge increases in stamp duty for the wealthiest. Facts can be really annoying sometimes.

[android]

I hate to keep bringing this up, but who bought it in?

Brought in what?

[Lowbankclaret]

Who are you more inclined to believe, the Daily Mail/Sun or the independent ONS?

What both the Sun and the Mail are doing is deliberately misleading people by quoting figures based on the total UK population rather than the working population. If you look at the Suns figures it talks about the adult population which will include 12M pensioners:

"That means around 21 million people - or 43 per cent of the adult population - earn less than £12,500 a year - the rate at which you start paying income tax."

Correct and after the last Labour gov got voted out anyone earning £6000 was paying tax, was Labour helping the low paid then??

So I am unsure why you think it’s a bad thing.

If Labour suggested going back to Labours levels would think it’s a good idea to return all those low paid workers and pensioners back into taxation.

[Lowbankclaret]

"Off their own back"

That one was instigated by the lib dems.

But your saying not by Labour the party of the low paid down trodden poor people.

[Lowbankclaret]

It's a shocking statistic and one that we, and the government, should be ashamed of. Pity the Sun and The Mail don't concentrate on that rather than campaigning against increases in tax rates. Alternatively they could support increases in the minimum wage. Instead they want tax cuts for the well off.

What I am really struggling with, how don’t you grasp it was a lot worse under Labour.

I hate arguing for the Tories, but Labours income tax rate was £6000, now its £12500.

Now they saying they will raise national insurance to £9000 and eventually to £12500.

Why if Labour are the party for the low paid are they not wanting to raise both to say £15000.

[TVC15]

Add the National Insurance benefit “lies” to the Corporation Tax Tory bullish-it.

For years they have said that cutting corporation tax has increased revenues...infact they have said this up until only a few days ago.
Now as a result of changing their mind on cutting corporation tax further they are going to SAVE 6 billion.
Mmm...when questioned on this the gov minister said it was a case of diminishing returns - or in normal speak they just make sh-it up as they go along.

[TVC15]

What I am really struggling with, how don’t you grasp it was a lot worse under Labour.

I hate arguing for the Tories, but Labours income tax rate was £6000, now its £12500.

Now they saying they will raise national insurance to £9000 and eventually to £12500.

Why if Labour are the party for the low paid are they not wanting to raise both to say £15000.

Maybe it’s because they know that such a tax change will benefit everyone rather than the lower income. Instead they have pledged to increase the living wage and there will be a whole range of policies no doubt targeted specifically at people on lower income.

Raising national insurance thresholds gives the same benefit to 31 million people and the vast majority of those people do not need this giveaway.
Personally in my situation I’d rather not have this given to me - I’d prefer my tax to rise....if the other side of this deal was more money going to key areas like education and NHS and money specifically earmarked for lower income people who are working and still under the poverty line, using food banks etc

[Lowbankclaret]

Maybe it’s because they know that such a tax change will benefit everyone rather than the lower income. Instead they have pledged to increase the living wage and there will be a whole range of policies no doubt targeted specifically at people on lower income.

Raising national insurance thresholds gives the same benefit to 31 million people and the vast majority of those people do not need this giveaway.
Personally in my situation I’d rather not have this given to me - I’d prefer my tax to rise....if the other side of this deal was more money going to key areas like education and NHS and money specifically earmarked for lower income people who are working and still under the poverty line, using food banks etc

Well I would prefer that people who go out to work keep more of the money they earn.

Rather than me paying more tax to give handouts to those who stop at home because they get more money that way.

I would rather they raised the income tax level and the national insurance level so working people got more. I would be perfectly ok with my tax burden increasing by the same amount so I got no extra, so you could increase tax above 50k or so to compensate.

So if a party said increase both to 15k and I got no benefit due to increased tax , I would go for that.
Encourage people into work

[Devils_Advocate]

They'd be better off doing something with working tax credits so its still those in work that benefit but the govt spend is much more focused on the lower earners and poorer people rather people like you and me benefiting from something we do not need

[Bordeauxclaret]

I wonder if the guy on twitter who Darren Bentley and Phil Bird have been arguing with today is our dear missing Ringo?

[quoonbeatz]

But your saying not by Labour the party of the low paid down trodden poor people.

I was talking about the Tories; nothing to do with Labour.

[TVC15]

Well I would prefer that people who go out to work keep more of the money they earn.

Rather than me paying more tax to give handouts to those who stop at home because they get more money that way.

I would rather they raised the income tax level and the national insurance level so working people got more. I would be perfectly ok with my tax burden increasing by the same amount so I got no extra, so you could increase tax above 50k or so to compensate.

So if a party said increase both to 15k and I got no benefit due to increased tax , I would go for that.
Encourage people into work

I never mentioned people who do not work.
I agree that more should be done to help those who are working and on low income to incentivise them to continue work.
But since you raised it in relation to those people out of work it would be great to see more of a radical approach and some new thinking : policies...and also for people to treat them with more respect than using terms like “handouts”.
Of course there are benefit cheats that need dealing with but there are many more genuine reasons why people don’t or cannot work.

[Spiral]

Most on here won't be arsed (that's fine, obviously) but I love this - Alan Moore, influential graphic novelist and man so defeatist about democratic institutions, voting, and humanity in general that he (probably wholly cathartically) created a fictional alternate-history world in which a giant inter-dimensional squid teleporting above New York, causing untold damage and catastrophic loss of human life was the only force by which people could learn to stop bickering for just a minute, has decided he's had enough of not voting. His rhetoric is typically excessive - you'd expect that from a professional writer - but it speaks a little bit to my own thoughts on anyone thinking of pi$$ing about with a spoilt ballot/protest vote or sitting at home stewing in a vat of cynicism.

https://twitter.com/johnreppion/status/ ... 3009401857" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[jontybfc]

But who to vote for?

The liberal’s priced me out with revocation of A50, Brexit and UKIP are mental and the greens is a wasted vote.

Where is the centre vote these days?

As an aside, my MP is Nigel Evans who I consider a decent bloke anyway.

Decent Bloke? Voted for legal aid cuts until it personally affected him. Typical career politician.

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2018/de ... l-aid-cuts" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

Priti Patel in Barrow today ‘You can’t blame the government for poverty.’ Mmmm.

[Elizabeth]

A really big hug to all the posters who are still lost in the fog.
As we head towards a General election win for the Tories

[Lowbankclaret]

New area of Burnley covered tonight.
In the interest of honesty.
2 Brexit party
6-8 Labour
Same Tories
About 20 + undecided

Had to have a bene n hot to warm up.

So opposite to other days out knocking on doors.

[dsr]

According to IFS studies Johnsons changes to NI threshold would most benefit the richest in our society

The figures don't make sense.

Take the man on £12,500 per year. At present, he pays no NIC on the first £8,628 of his wage, and 12% on the balance of £3,872. This comes to £464.64. When the £12,500 limit comes in, he pays nothing - saving £464.64.

And then the man on £30,000. At present, he pays NIC on his income above £8,628, which is £21,372 x 12% = £2,564.64. When the rate changes, he will pay NIC on his income above £12,500, which is £17,500 x 12%, which is £2,100. A saving of £464.64.

And the man on £60,000. He pays 12% NIC on his income from £6,628 to £50,000, and 2% after that. This is £41,372 @ 12% and £10,000 @ 2%, total £5,164.64. When the allowance goes up to £12,500, he will pay £37,600 @ 12% and £10,000 @ 2%, total £4,700. A saving of, guess what, £464.64.

That's the way it works with NIC. The effect is only on the income band from £8,628 to £12,500. So everyone earning more than £12,500 gets exactly the same absolute gain. It doesn't vary with income.

Do you have a link to the original graph?

[Rowls]

Care to justify the £400 figure?

NI rates are currently 12% on earnings over £8632 so raising the threshold to £9500 would save someone £100 not £400 per year. Life changing?

As for the jobs miracle, the only thing that's miraculous is the way the figures have been manipulated.

Figure from BBC website.

I would support *any* party who introduced such a measure as I believe it will help the lowest paid in society.

It's a shame to see people acting so tribally and cynically against this when it ought to be celebrated and welcomed on all sides of the political divide.

Who wants to see low paid workers having their wages taken up by taxes?

[Darthlaw]

Decent Bloke? Voted for legal aid cuts until it personally affected him. Typical career politician.

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2018/de ... l-aid-cuts" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Evans:

“If I had my time again I would stand up and argue against the implementation of Laspo, It’s wrong, completely wrong, to remove people’s right to have expert legal representation, and now I’ve gone through it I can see that clearly. We’re definitely talking about justice being denied as a result of Laspo.“

“My experience of being falsely accused, and losing my life savings to defend myself proving that, was a road to Damascus moment for me. I’m a changed person now, in terms of Laspo and sympathy for all those who now have to go through the legal system without expert help, support and advice.”

“I’m not just talking about those accused in the criminal courts like me, but everyone affected by Laspo. Parents going through the family courts, tenants fighting landlords, patients fighting hospitals and so on. Laspo is clearly not working. It needs to be overhauled.”

Admitted he got it wrong. What....a....horrible....individual...

[UpTheClaretsFCBK]

New area of Burnley covered tonight.
In the interest of honesty.
2 Brexit party
6-8 Labour
Same Tories
About 20 + undecided

Had to have a bene n hot to warm up.

So opposite to other days out knocking on doors.

The 11,000+ BME voters in Burnley will win the seat for Labour.

Say roughly 45,000 people turn out to vote, which is slightly higher than in the 2016 referendum and higher than the 2017 election.

Labour managed a majority of roughly 6,500 with 18,500 votes in total, half of those BME votes.

Conservatives managed 12,000 votes, Lib Dems 6,000, UKIP 2,500, Green 500.

You'd have to fancy the Brexit Party to outdo UKIP, as they were in turmoil at the time, and the votes will come from the Conservative total. In 2017, Labour were very much viewed as the remain party, so anyone who wanted Brexit at that point had already change allegiances to Tory or UKIP.

You've got to predict that Julie Cooper will strengthen her majority, unless the TBP or the Tories drop out of the race.