Which is probably why the manifesto refers to ‘profitable utilities’ in reference to this rule.dsr wrote:Yes. Normal accountancy would show money borrowed to buy an asset as balance-sheet neutral; over time, the asset would depreciate in value and the loan would be repaid out of profits until both disappeared off the balance sheet when the asset was worn out and the loan repaid; hopefully with a profit as a result.
Government finances don't work like that. Probably the reason is that treating schools and hospitals this way, as Labour is proposing, is nonsense. Schools and hospitals don't make financial profits so the company financial model doesn't work. Government finances work on the basis of receipts and payments.
General Election Is On
Re: General Election Is On
Last edited by martin_p on Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This user liked this post: Tall Paul
Re: General Election Is On
Yes, but if the government is changing its own rules so that new assets are to added to the balance sheet and presumably depreciated, then they must also change the rules so that existing assets are depreciated as well. That'll blow a massive hole in the budget. They can't use one set of accounting policies for new spending while applying a different set of policies to old spending. It's nonsense.Tall Paul wrote:Fair enough, but if the government is spending on an income generating asset like the utilities, surely it's wrong to write that expenditure off straight away and it makes more sense to account for it as any other entity would.
This user liked this post: Darthlaw
Re: General Election Is On
But there is the other rule about having to balance "current spending" as opposed to investment; the definition of investment to be made by themselves. You can bet that schools and hospitals will class as "investment" and don't need the books to balance for them.martin_p wrote:Which is probably why the manifesto refers to ‘profitable utilities’ in reference to this rule.
Re: General Election Is On
So you’re guessing now to try and back up your point.dsr wrote:But there is the other rule about having to balance "current spending" as opposed to investment; the definition of investment to be made by themselves. You can bet that schools and hospitals will class as "investment" and don't need the books to balance for them.
Re: General Election Is On
If they're leaving gaps in the info, we've either got to make best estimates to fill the gaps, or else just shrug and think "it'll be right".martin_p wrote:So you’re guessing now to try and back up your point.
Re: General Election Is On
Like you do with Brexit?dsr wrote:If they're leaving gaps in the info, we've either got to make best estimates to fill the gaps, or else just shrug and think "it'll be right".
Re: General Election Is On
If you like. And like we make "best estimates" to fill the gaps of what we don't know about Brexit. Works both ways.martin_p wrote:Like you do with Brexit?
Re: General Election Is On
But there isn’t a gap here. Labour are very clear about how they’ll fund their investments, through taxation.dsr wrote:If you like. And like we make "best estimates" to fill the gaps of what we don't know about Brexit. Works both ways.
Re: General Election Is On
So when Sam Coates says "2. Relax fiscal rules. Under Lab they only have to balance *current* spending, not investment - and they will define the difference themselves. Their goal is to always be able to promise balance at a point 5 yrs in future", what is the very clear definition of "current" spending and investment?martin_p wrote:But there isn’t a gap here. Labour are very clear about how they’ll fund their investments, through taxation.
Re: General Election Is On
Hilarious how you originally asked about the utilities, and then switched to schools and hospitals.dsr wrote:Yes. Normal accountancy would show money borrowed to buy an asset as balance-sheet neutral; over time, the asset would depreciate in value and the loan would be repaid out of profits until both disappeared off the balance sheet when the asset was worn out and the loan repaid; hopefully with a profit as a result.
Government finances don't work like that. Probably the reason is that treating schools and hospitals this way, as Labour is proposing, is nonsense. Schools and hospitals don't make financial profits so the company financial model doesn't work. Government finances work on the basis of receipts and payments.
Re: General Election Is On
Well if all you can find to criticise is an unclear definition of investment then it’s looking like a pretty good manifesto to me. As I said the funding for the investment is addressed anyway.dsr wrote:So when Sam Coates says "2. Relax fiscal rules. Under Lab they only have to balance *current* spending, not investment - and they will define the difference themselves. Their goal is to always be able to promise balance at a point 5 yrs in future", what is the very clear definition of "current" spending and investment?
But if not having a clear definition is a big deal for you then fair enough, although you weren’t voting Labour whatever was in the manifesto.
Re: General Election Is On
And then switched to something else when it was pointed out that Labour wasn’t intending to treat schools and hospitals like utilities.AndrewJB wrote:Hilarious how you originally asked about the utilities, and then switched to schools and hospitals.
-
- Posts: 3484
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:50 pm
- Been Liked: 660 times
- Has Liked: 205 times
Re: General Election Is On
To be succinct, Corbyn’s manifesto sucks.
Re: General Election Is On
Ok, be less succinct and say why.dermotdermot wrote:To be succinct, Corbyn’s manifesto sucks.
This user liked this post: Taffy on the wing
Re: General Election Is On
If the 1983 Labour manifesto was described as the “longest suicide note in history” this one runs it close.
It is one thing saying it’s fully costed and another actually obtaining the funds from the markets. Like me saying I fancy buying a house for a million pounds and I will borrow the million to pay for it.
The idea of taxing dividends at same rate of income tax will have a massive effect on small ltd companies who already pay corporation tax on profits which Labour have said will rise to 21% but now any dividend paid afterwards will be taxed at 20% minimum. This is your local garage, shop etc that will be effected.
Whilst it admirable the pension age will stay at 66 no mention of the extra cost of this.
Waspi women will be compensated no mention of cost
No mention of cost of abolishing private schools which they are committed to.
The thing with this election is that if Labour were running a centre left agenda under a Blairite they would be walking this election
It is one thing saying it’s fully costed and another actually obtaining the funds from the markets. Like me saying I fancy buying a house for a million pounds and I will borrow the million to pay for it.
The idea of taxing dividends at same rate of income tax will have a massive effect on small ltd companies who already pay corporation tax on profits which Labour have said will rise to 21% but now any dividend paid afterwards will be taxed at 20% minimum. This is your local garage, shop etc that will be effected.
Whilst it admirable the pension age will stay at 66 no mention of the extra cost of this.
Waspi women will be compensated no mention of cost
No mention of cost of abolishing private schools which they are committed to.
The thing with this election is that if Labour were running a centre left agenda under a Blairite they would be walking this election
Last edited by Dy1geo on Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: General Election Is On
Dy1geo wrote:If the 1983 Labour manifesto was described as the “longest suicide note in history” this one runs it close.
It is one thing saying it’s fully costed and another actually obtaining the funds from the markets. Like me saying I fancy buying a house for a million pounds and I will borrow the million to pay for it.
The idea of taxing dividends at same rate of income tax will have a massive effect on small ltd companies who already pay corporation tax on profits which Labour have said will rise to 21% but now any dividend paid afterwards will be taxed at 20% minimum. This is your local garage, shop etc that will be effected.
Whilst it admirable the pension age will stay at 66 no mention of the extra cost of this.
Waspi women will be compensated no mention of cost
No mention of cost of abolishing private schools which they are committed to.
The thing with this election is that if Labour were running a centre left agenda under a Blairite they would be walking this election
Re: General Election Is On
They can if those existing assets aren't generating income (such as schools and hospitals, for example) and the new ones are going to.dsr wrote:Yes, but if the government is changing its own rules so that new assets are to added to the balance sheet and presumably depreciated, then they must also change the rules so that existing assets are depreciated as well. That'll blow a massive hole in the budget. They can't use one set of accounting policies for new spending while applying a different set of policies to old spending. It's nonsense.
Re: General Election Is On
If you had read the rest of my recent posts you would realise that I have a lot more criticisms than that.martin_p wrote:Well if all you can find to criticise is an unclear definition of investment then it’s looking like a pretty good manifesto to me. As I said the funding for the investment is addressed anyway.
But if not having a clear definition is a big deal for you then fair enough, although you weren’t voting Labour whatever was in the manifesto.
Re: General Election Is On
Not really, small company owners will pay themselves a wage instead of a dividend and get corporation tax relief at a higher rate.Dy1geo wrote:The idea of taxing dividends at same rate of income tax will have a massive effect on small ltd companies who already pay corporation tax on profits which Labour have said will rise to 21% but now any dividend paid afterwards will be taxed at 20% minimum. This is your local garage, shop etc that will be effected.
Re: General Election Is On
I’ve read all your posts since the manifesto was published and all you’ve talked about is Corbyn being middle class and getting confused over what a profitable utility is.dsr wrote:If you had read the rest of my recent posts you would realise that I have a lot more criticisms than that.
This user liked this post: Bordeauxclaret
-
- Posts: 1349
- Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:08 pm
- Been Liked: 217 times
- Has Liked: 543 times
Re: General Election Is On
Labour costings are not credible according to the IFS.
https://twitter.com/itvnews/status/1197504856761815041" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://twitter.com/itvnews/status/1197504856761815041" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
-
- Posts: 6576
- Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:42 pm
- Been Liked: 1233 times
- Has Liked: 56 times
Re: General Election Is On
I have been having a debate at work.
Who nowadays is working class???
Who is middle class???
Who is upper class???
It’s become a difficult definition.
When I started work I would have myself where I am today as middle class.
Now I am where I am I thinking i am working class but not sure other people would think.
When does working class become middle class???
Who nowadays is working class???
Who is middle class???
Who is upper class???
It’s become a difficult definition.
When I started work I would have myself where I am today as middle class.
Now I am where I am I thinking i am working class but not sure other people would think.
When does working class become middle class???
Re: General Election Is On
They could always take the money out as wages which may also relieve some of the IR35 abuse.Dy1geo wrote:If the 1983 Labour manifesto was described as the “longest suicide note in history” this one runs it close.
It is one thing saying it’s fully costed and another actually obtaining the funds from the markets. Like me saying I fancy buying a house for a million pounds and I will borrow the million to pay for it.
The idea of taxing dividends at same rate of income tax will have a massive effect on small ltd companies who already pay corporation tax on profits which Labour have said will rise to 21% but now any dividend paid afterwards will be taxed at 20% minimum. This is your local garage, shop etc that will be effected.
Whilst it admirable the pension age will stay at 66 no mention of the extra cost of this.
Waspi women will be compensated no mention of cost
No mention of cost of abolishing private schools which they are committed to.
The thing with this election is that if Labour were running a centre left agenda under a Blairite they would be walking this election
-
- Posts: 1349
- Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:08 pm
- Been Liked: 217 times
- Has Liked: 543 times
Re: General Election Is On
New tactical voting app for brexiteers, recommends voting Tory in Burnley.
http://tacticalbrexit.org/#/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://tacticalbrexit.org/#/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: General Election Is On
To explain currently a 100% owner of a Ltd company will pay himself/herself a wage of £8632 a year. If the business make a profit of say £40k he/she will pay 19% corporation tax = £7600 the accountant advises say a dividend of £32400 he/she will receive the first £2000 free and pay 7.5% on the £30,400 = £2,280 in tax. Total tax bill £9,880 (corporation plus dividend tax) and he/she will receive a Net income of £38,752Tall Paul wrote:Not really, small company owners will pay themselves a wage instead of a dividend and get corporation tax relief at a higher rate.
If he paid himself a wage in full as you suggest the £8632 would be added to the £40k profit bringing total wage to £48,632 the first £12,500 would be at 0% and the residual amount of £36,132 at 20% bringing tax bill of £7226.40, there would also be Class 1 National Insurance to pay first £8632 is discounted so remaining £40,000 is at 12% = £4800 so total tax and NI bill by paying it as a wage as you suggest is £12,026.40 so from a wage of £48,632 he/she would get £36,605.60
Re: General Election Is On
And by the looks of it, neither will the Conservatives:AndyClaret wrote:Labour costings are not credible according to the IFS.
https://twitter.com/itvnews/status/1197504856761815041" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Tom Newton Dunn
Verified account
@tnewtondunn
Follow Follow @tnewtondunn
More
Matt Hancock all but confirms the Tories are ducking out of proposing a specific social care solution in their manifesto. Including his own well-prepared insurance payments system. Instead, just a lofty aim to achieve cross-party consensus. So the decade-long dither continues.
Re: General Election Is On
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10389069/ ... ered-vote/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: General Election Is On
You wouldn't expect to depreciate an appreciating asset (a profitable company) though. Obviously the assumption there is that it will be profitable (which they seem to have based on the sector's current performance).dsr wrote:Yes, but if the government is changing its own rules so that new assets are to added to the balance sheet and presumably depreciated, then they must also change the rules so that existing assets are depreciated as well. That'll blow a massive hole in the budget. They can't use one set of accounting policies for new spending while applying a different set of policies to old spending. It's nonsense.
Re: General Election Is On
Lowbankclaret wrote:
When does working class become middle class???
When they start voting Tory
These 2 users liked this post: Cryssys longsidepies
Re: General Election Is On
So a fairly small impact, not a massive one as you originally stated.Dy1geo wrote:To explain currently a 100% owner of a Ltd company will pay himself/herself a wage of £8632 a year. If the business make a profit of say £40k he/she will pay 19% corporation tax = £7600 the accountant advises say a dividend of £32400 he/she will receive the first £2000 free and pay 7.5% on the £30,400 = £2,280 in tax. Total tax bill £9,880 (corporation plus dividend tax) and he/she will receive a Net income of £38,752
If he paid himself a wage in full as you suggest the £8632 would be added to the £40k profit bringing total wage to £48,632 the first £12,500 would be at 0% and the residual amount of £36,132 at 20% bringing tax bill of £7226.40, there would also be Class 1 National Insurance to pay first £8632 is discounted so remaining £40,000 is at 12% = £4800 so total tax and NI bill by paying it as a wage as you suggest is £12,026.40 so from a wage of £48,632 he/she would get £36,605.60
-
- Posts: 4388
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:09 pm
- Been Liked: 1826 times
- Has Liked: 930 times
Re: General Election Is On
Millions flooding in to the party of the rich. What are they buying..?
-
- Posts: 5793
- Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 10:52 am
- Been Liked: 1884 times
- Has Liked: 841 times
Re: General Election Is On
Pretty sure Johnson said there would be a social care pledge in their manifesto other night and said people should not have to sell their homes to fund being cared for ?Spijed wrote:And by the looks of it, neither will the Conservatives:
Tom Newton Dunn
Verified account
@tnewtondunn
Follow Follow @tnewtondunn
More
Matt Hancock all but confirms the Tories are ducking out of proposing a specific social care solution in their manifesto. Including his own well-prepared insurance payments system. Instead, just a lofty aim to achieve cross-party consensus. So the decade-long dither continues.
Re: General Election Is On
Tall Paul wrote:So a fairly small impact, not a massive one as you originally stated.
The point I was making was regarding the changes to the dividend tax rates and increase in corporation tax but even if they do what you suggest on that level of income it equates to to £41.28 a week.
You might not think that it’s a lot but it’s the general direction of travel towards higher taxes. Blair realised that you had to appeal to the aspirational business owners unlike Corbyn and McDonnell
Re: General Election Is On
Haha LOL look at labour the absolute scrubbers. £218k. Randy Andy spends more than that on coke at his sex parties, the absolute legend. £218k! HA! Losers! Haha LOL!!!
Re: General Election Is On
And you believed him?Steve-Harpers-perm wrote:Pretty sure Johnson said there would be a social care pledge in their manifesto other night and said people should not have to sell their homes to fund being cared for ?
Re: General Election Is On
I'm sure they'll just invent another £50 a week of business expenses to make up for it.Dy1geo wrote:The point I was making was regarding the changes to the dividend tax rates and increase in corporation tax but even if they do what you suggest on that level of income it equates to to £41.28 a week.
You might not think that it’s a lot but it’s the general direction of travel towards higher taxes. Blair realised that you had to appeal to the aspirational business owners unlike Corbyn and McDonnell
-
- Posts: 5793
- Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 10:52 am
- Been Liked: 1884 times
- Has Liked: 841 times
Re: General Election Is On
Of course!Cryssys wrote:And you believed him?
Re: General Election Is On
Don’t worry, I’m sure the rich people have got our backs on this. Throughout history the main concern of the rich man is making sure his workers are well paid and happy, even if it’s at his own expense.CombatClaret wrote:Millions flooding in to the party of the rich. What are they buying..?
-
- Posts: 6904
- Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:04 pm
- Been Liked: 2758 times
- Has Liked: 4325 times
Re: General Election Is On
Does that include the Bankers and Corporations for whose benefit the EU is run ?
Re: General Election Is On
Don't do drugs like Spiral kids.Spiral wrote:Haha LOL look at labour the absolute scrubbers. £218k. Randy Andy spends more than that on coke at his sex parties, the absolute legend. £218k! HA! Losers! Haha LOL!!!
-
- Posts: 23343
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
- Been Liked: 8058 times
- Has Liked: 4714 times
- Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing
Re: General Election Is On
I'm sorry, but please just stop making **** up.randomclaret2 wrote:Does that include the Bankers and Corporations for whose benefit the EU is run ?
Yours
Everybody else
Re: General Election Is On
Dominic Raab:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-englan ... -misled-us" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-englan ... -misled-us" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
-
- Posts: 4388
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:09 pm
- Been Liked: 1826 times
- Has Liked: 930 times
Re: General Election Is On
Labour have only £218k in donations larger than £7.5k in the last week.
Meanwhile Tory's millions in large donations include a donation of £200k from a Putin linked Russian Oligarch's wife.
Meanwhile Tory's millions in large donations include a donation of £200k from a Putin linked Russian Oligarch's wife.
-
- Posts: 5793
- Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 10:52 am
- Been Liked: 1884 times
- Has Liked: 841 times
Re: General Election Is On
Patrick Bateman I mean Dominic Raab won’t give a toss about this.Spijed wrote:Dominic Raab:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-englan ... -misled-us" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: General Election Is On
Labour plan to build 100,000 council homes a year which is brilliant however they also want to have free movement of people and more migration into the UK and make it easier for refugees. Will they be living in tents ? Labour will house them first so the housing problem will never be resolved.
Re: General Election Is On
It’s impossible to fully evaluate without putting it next to the Tory one.dermotdermot wrote:To be succinct, Corbyn’s manifesto sucks.
-
- Posts: 6576
- Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:42 pm
- Been Liked: 1233 times
- Has Liked: 56 times
Re: General Election Is On
Chobulous wrote:When they start voting Tory
Will I have had people in Terraced houses who are going to vote Tory.
-
- Posts: 6904
- Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:04 pm
- Been Liked: 2758 times
- Has Liked: 4325 times
Re: General Election Is On
Good to see Labour insisting only those earning over £80,000 will pay more tax. An MP's salary is £79,468.
-
- Posts: 4388
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:09 pm
- Been Liked: 1826 times
- Has Liked: 930 times
Re: General Election Is On
Nash... foam... foreigners...bfcjg wrote:Labour plan to build 100,000 council homes a year which is brilliant however they also want to have free movement of people and more migration into the UK and make it easier for refugees. Will they be living in tents ? Labour will house them first so the housing problem will never be resolved.
-
- Posts: 6576
- Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:42 pm
- Been Liked: 1233 times
- Has Liked: 56 times
Re: General Election Is On
Oh, now .i believe polls.
2% meh
2% meh