General Election Is On

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Paul Waine
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Paul Waine » Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:54 pm

Erasmus wrote:Thanks, Paul. We discussed NHS funding before. Of course, the major difference between the British and Dutch healthcare systems is that their government pays a considerable amount more per head of population than does ours. If you include that level of increased funding then I am with you all the way.

And I think the fact that you can't suggest solutions to the crises with education, destitution, care for the elderly etc explains why I will vote Labour. Johnson and his party are just offering more of the same and that is really, really unacceptable. Over a million people have had to use food banks, schools are unable to offer full-time education and the elderly are being deprived of proper care. The worst of all was the six weeks wait for universal credit, which was so cruel and heartless it beggars belief. I do think you are reasonable person, but I can't see how you can support the people who inflicted such suffering on others.
Hi Erasmus, agree, Netherlands spends more on health than UK. When I was living there it was a compulsory insurance based system - with everyone having insurance based on means - and (annual) excess paid by patient. (Those that could afford paid extra so that those that couldn't afford also had their own insurance). I haven't heard anything about their system changing to be a tax-payer pays system like UK. The big thing with Netherlands system is that you were bringing money to spend with the doctors/hospitals, so they responded to your needs - i.e. no weeks/months of waiting for your appointments.

I'm still considering what I can add to the discussion about "education, destitution, care for the elderly etc." So much of what we hear are just politicised slogans and sound bites. School budgets are based on pupil numbers, I know that there's been some re-balancing, but I don't have details and I don't what drives one school's budget versus another's. I'd want to be able to look a lot deeper to make my own recommendations about education.

I don't know enough about universal credit. Why does it have a 6 week pay out timing?

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by martin_p » Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:54 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:So are you arguing it’s all free???

No one pays for the 83billuon extra spending.

Plus there’s a few promises not included in the costings., but we can ignore that as the single pensioners can pay extra council tax to pay for that.
It’ll be free for many, but to represent the funding as just tax rises against the top 5% is wrong and if you’ve read the manifesto as you claim you’ll know that.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by If it be your will » Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:59 pm

AndrewJB wrote:What I’m saying is if Luxembourg can run their trains as a public service, then so can we. We know Germany legally provide three times more state aid than we do, and the French twice as much. There are ways of doing that t that don’t transgress EU regulation.
Okay, I'll admit it. Luxembourg's commuter services had, until now, escaped my attention, probably because they are so trifling. The other two main holdouts against neoliberalism in rail services were Eire and Norway (the latter being EFTA members). France capitulated to the 4th railway package ages ago. And now Eire and Norway are finally succumbing under pressure from the EU.

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/b7500 ... y-package/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://labourheartlands.com/norway-rai ... atisation/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There is literally zero chance of fully nationalising rail in the UK whilst members of the EU. If your brand of socialism includes major renationalisation programs, you have to accept you backed the wrong horse in the referendum.

Paul Waine
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Paul Waine » Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:04 pm

If it be your will wrote:I've had a quick look at their costings, and it does look like it would all be free for me. Would it not be for you?
Hi iibyw, who puts money into your pension? If you've got state employed defined benefit, then "good for you." However, if it's defined contribution, whether it is NEST or any other funds, it will be invested in shares. And, a Labour gov't taking 10% of shares will result in your pension fund value falling.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndrewJB » Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:14 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:So are you arguing it’s all free???

No one pays for the 83billuon extra spending.

Plus there’s a few promises not included in the costings., but we can ignore that as the single pensioners can pay extra council tax to pay for that.
Nothing is free, but some elements of an economy are better provided as a collectively paid for service that is not run for profit. This is a benefit for the citizens.and very good for real business that actually competes with other businesses for customers, and innovates to gain an advantage - as compared to a water or rail monopoly which places shareholder value foremost, and charges high prices without reinvesting profits to benefit users (both business and consumers).

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by If it be your will » Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:23 pm

Paul Waine wrote:Hi iibyw, who puts money into your pension? If you've got state employed defined benefit, then "good for you." However, if it's defined contribution, whether it is NEST or any other funds, it will be invested in shares. And, a Labour gov't taking 10% of shares will result in your pension fund value falling.
Pension funds are beneficial owners of 3% of quoted UK shares
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/investme ... hares/2016" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Pension funds are overwhelmingly invested in bonds, not shares.
https://www.mercer.com/content/dam/merc ... rt-new.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndrewJB » Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:27 pm

Paul Waine wrote:Hi iibyw, who puts money into your pension? If you've got state employed defined benefit, then "good for you." However, if it's defined contribution, whether it is NEST or any other funds, it will be invested in shares. And, a Labour gov't taking 10% of shares will result in your pension fund value falling.
People who have pensions will probably benefit more from lower prices with energy, and a greener plan that steps toward a better future. Along with a better economy.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:27 pm

One thing is for sure about Labour’s costings - with upping corporation tax to 26% in 5 years we cannot be out of the EU. That only works if we are low tax and nimble.

I’ve copied below the funding table for those who are interested (apologies if this has been done already, I don’t have time to read 2 days of posts). I am affected by FIVE of the below, and am NOT in the top 5% of household income, nor will I ever get a penny of inheritance. So much for only the top 5% funding it, which if it was I would have potentially supported to a small extent, (and this is only the stuff they have announced, there will be more to come).

Additional revenue raising measures
2023/24 £ (bn)

Income Tax: Additional Rate payable from £80,000 (45p) and new Super-rich Rate payable from £125,000 (50p)
Mechanical yield: 11.4 Behavioural response and deduction for devolved income tax in Scotland: -6.0 Post-behavioural estimated yield 5.4

Corporate taxation
Gradually reverse cuts to corporation tax to reach 21% (Small Profits Rate) and 26% (main rate) 23.7
Unitary taxation of multinationals 6.3

Taxing income from wealth equitably and efficiently
Tax capital gains at income tax rates, including behavioural response: 9.0 Tax dividends at income tax rates, including behavioural response: 9.0 Additional reduction for uncertainty: -4.0 Post-behavioural estimated yield reduced further for uncertainty 14.0

Financial Transactions Tax
Extend stamp duty reserve duty, including behavioural change 8.8

Tackling tax avoidance and evasion
Fair Tax Programme 6.2

Tax reliefs and expenditures
Efficiency review of corporate tax reliefs 4.3
Reform of R&D funding 4.0

Other
Reverse cuts to inheritance tax and Bank Levy, impose VAT on private school fees, scrap Married Persons Allowance,
introduce a second homes tax 5.2
Additional tax revenue from fiscal multiplier 5.0

Total 82.9

IanMcL
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by IanMcL » Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:33 pm

Labour have a huge set of spending proposals, many of which are unequivocally good like extra spending on the NHS, some are open to debate like abolishing student loans, and only one that I think is foolish (keeping the state pension age at 66). It would be good if all the debate was about these spending pledges. However the standard excuse for why you cannot have these things has always been about paying for them.


There are actually two issues here. The first concerns current spending, around £80 billion each year or about 4% of GDP, and public investment, expected to rise by about £50 billion a year or over 2% of GDP. Labour's current spending increase is financed £ for £ mainly by higher taxes on corporations, capital gains and high earners, while the investment is financed through borrowing. Let me take each in order,


The figure for the increase in current spending and taxes is large. I personally would not call it colossal but it is large. I would argue that reflects the extent of the squeeze we have seen on the public sector since 2010. But what about the argument that it makes the share of government current spending in GDP the highest since the 1970s? A much better comparison is to look at other countries, as the Resolution Foundation has done here.



What Labour’s plans do is to move the UK from the bottom of the league table in terms of the size of the state to somewhere around the middle.


I think this is a key part of the Corbyn project. Under Thatcher, but particularly since Cameron and Osborne, the UK has pretended it can have a state only a bit bigger than the US. But of course the US does not have a universal health service free at the point of delivery. So a key goal of this manifesto is to move us from the bottom to the average in terms of size of states. Another way of putting it is that the UK will become closer to the European average, and further away from the US/Canada level.


The reason why comparisons with the UK’s past are misleading can be summed up with three letters: the NHS. For reasons I have talked about in the past, spending on health has been increasing as a share of GDP since WWII. Every time the Conservatives try to halt this we get growing waiting times. That means that the share of the state in GDP is bound to rise over time, unless there is some offsetting component of public spending. In the 90s there was - lower military spending following the end of the Cold War - but now there is nothing. So the size of the state is bound to rise over time.


Who is going to pay for getting us to the average of European countries. Under Labour’s plans it is the rich and corporations. I think Paul Johnson in his initial TV comments on the manifesto confused two things, and as a result said some things which were very open to misinterpretation. (Initial reactions to complex documents are often hard to get right,) There is no ‘black hole’ in Labour’s costings. The IFS say the corporation tax numbers are realistic, and I know Labour have tried hard to make them so. Johnson’s point is that companies are not people, and some people will pay this tax. The question is who.


On this issue it has to be said that there is no settled view from the empirical evidence. At one end you have the studies presented in a recent IPPR report (p11). This suggests that most of corporation tax changes fall on shareholders. Now some of those shareholders will indeed be pension funds, but that might influence those who hold those funds rather than those who hold none. Other evidence suggests a 50/50 split between shareholders and workers, and some suggest workers end up paying an even greater share. The honest answer is we do not know what the incidence will be.


There also seems to be a legitimate difference of opinion over the longer term impact of higher corporation tax. The IFS say it will reduce investment and therefore profits. My own view is that corporation tax plays a pretty small roll in investment decisions. The most important factor for investment in non-traded goods is the future level of demand, and here Labour’s strategy is very positive. For exporting firms that are more mobile, factors like the skill base, ease of exporting and political stability play a big role, which is why leaving the EU is so costly.


I have no doubt that a few of the tax increases proposed by Labour will not yield as much as they hope. But most analysis misses the elephant in the room, and that is Brexit. I think it is highly likely Brexit will not happen under Labour, and even if it did it would be far less costly than either the Tories plans, or the effects embodied in the OBR base numbers that many people use. For this reason the LibDems have talked about a ‘Remain bonus’ (in the incredible event they could form a majority government). Labour will also get this bonus.


As to the investment part of the programme, the key issue is once again whether the investment is needed and well spent. We should not be talking about whether it is safe to borrow it. There is virtually no chance that this money will not be available at low long term real interest rates. No one should be scared of investing in the future of our economy and the planet, whether its by adding 2% or more to the deficit.


Much more interesting than the ‘do the numbers add up’ question is thinking about the macroeconomic impact of Labour’s plans. If you read some people there will be an immediate run on sterling as capital takes its money out of the UK. Of course if enough people believe this nonsense it might happen, for a day or two. But the one area where Labour are not radical is macroeconomic policy design. We will have Bank of England independence and a solid state of the art fiscal rule. As soon as that becomes clear any depreciation will be more than reversed, and I suspect there will be an appreciation from day 1. Sterling will appreciate on the expectations of an end to a hard Brexit and rising interest rates.


Why will interest rates rise? The large increase in public investment alone represents a large fiscal expansion. So does the increase in current spending, because a lot of the tax increases will come out of personal or corporate savings. A big injection of demand in the economy will require an increase in interest rates to prevent inflation rising, although the appreciation in sterling will provide some temporary cushioning.


An appreciation in sterling is likely to raise the real wage of every worker in this country. Is an increase in interest rates a problem? For some it may be, but of course for every borrower there is also a saver. From a macroeconomic point of view an increase in interest rates is long overdue. It is a sign that that after a wasted decade we are finally getting the economy moving. You thought the economy was already strong? Just more Conservatives lies. 2010 to 2018 has been the weakest period in terms of growth in GDP per head since the 1950s.  


In the unlikely event of a majority Labour government a stimulus of this scale might lead to shortages of skilled labour that would mean some plans may be delayed. More realistically that problem would be less severe in a minority government where some of the manifesto might be blocked by coalition partners. But either way, a Labour government implementing all or the major part of this manifesto will mean the economy as a whole will end a decade of low output and wage growth that has stifled UK innovation and productivity growth.


We should ignore the tired old discourse about whether we can pay for it, and focus on the benefits each individual spending increase or investment project might bring, and on the revitalisation of the economy that this manifesto will generate.
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Paul Waine
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Paul Waine » Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:26 am

If it be your will wrote:Pension funds are beneficial owners of 3% of quoted UK shares
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/investme ... hares/2016" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Pension funds are overwhelmingly invested in bonds, not shares.
https://www.mercer.com/content/dam/merc ... rt-new.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
AndrewJB wrote: People who have pensions will probably benefit more from lower prices with energy, and a greener plan that steps toward a better future. Along with a better economy.
Hi iibyw and AJB,

The 3% Pension Funds are just the "defined benefit" funds that employers used to provide to their staff. Yes, these have fallen massively in the past 20 years - well, since Gordon Brown took away their tax free dividends in 1998 (I think it was 98). There aren't many of these private sector schemes left - pension arrangements for new most existing and nearly all new employees are now defined contribution (yes, it is often different in the public sector). Mercer is correct that these "employer funded" pension funds have switched most of their investments into bonds.

Defined contribution pension arrangements, whether funded partly by employer (NEST is an example) or directly by individuals are mostly represented by (1) Insurance companies, (5.9%) (2) Unit Trusts (9.0%) from the ONS table linked.

ONS Background information on the institutions covered in the MQ5 release relates: https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/investme ... mq5release" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Of course, the Insurance (5.9%) and UTs (9.0%) may not be exclusively pension savings. They may also include ISAs - which is just another form of personal savings. It's also very possible that Individuals (11.9%) include pension savings. Of course, all the latter are individuals' exposures to share prices. (Yes, I know, some of these holdings will not be "the little man and woman").

Andrew, my reference to individual costs of JC/JMcD taking 10% of company value applies to everyone who is saving for a pension, whether they are 21 years old (I think compulsory pension contributions apply to employees from 21st birthday - and I think it's now from the smallest to the very largest firms). I'm intrigued by your thoughts that "a greener plan" will be coupled with "lower prices with energy."

Yes, let's hope we all have a better future along with a better economy.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:39 am

See the Tories have learnt a big lesson from the referendum debate.

Keep it light on detail but high on soundbites.

The voters will lap it up.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by aggi » Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:21 am

If it be your will wrote:I can't tell if you've answered my question or not.

So if Luxembourg can run a PSO service without competitive tender for 275km of commuter lines, having taken advantage of the exemption in paragraph 23 here: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content ... 32007R1370" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; , we can do the same for 16,000km of railways in the UK?
I can see how that carve out would work for Luxembourg but not a larger territory.

A serious question, how does TFL and the London underground being a publicly owned company get round this? They are actively expanding, taking over more train lines to add to the tube lines, but I've never seen anything about them potentially breaching EU rules.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by FactualFrank » Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:25 am

Not sure on the accuracy of this site, but which party is expected to win in your area?
https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For me it's overwhelmingly Tories with over 85% chance.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndyClaret » Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:29 am

FactualFrank wrote:Not sure on the accuracy of this site, but which party is expected to win in your area?
https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For me it's overwhelmingly Tories with over 85% chance.

It predicts a close one in Burnley,

Labour 33.8
Tory 32.2

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by FactualFrank » Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:34 am

AndyClaret wrote:It predicts a close one in Burnley,

Labour 33.8
Tory 32.2
Is that the 'chance of winning' column?

For predicted votes in my area, it's Tories 55.2%, Labour, 32.1%.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndyClaret » Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:58 am

FactualFrank wrote:Is that the 'chance of winning' column?

For predicted votes in my area, it's Tories 55.2%, Labour, 32.1%.
No, it's predicted votes.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by IanMcL » Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:00 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:See the Tories have learnt a big lesson from the referendum debate.

Keep it light on detail but high on soundbites.

The voters will lap it up.
Voters love bus ads!

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by LoveCurryPies » Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:51 am

I’m wondering how many party heads will roll after the results. I suspect Jo Swinson and Jeremy Corbyn. Boris is so thick skinned, I doubt he would resign.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by aggi » Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:40 pm

FactualFrank wrote:Not sure on the accuracy of this site, but which party is expected to win in your area?
https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For me it's overwhelmingly Tories with over 85% chance.
They apply national polls to local seats. They do ok but not great. I think in previous elections their error vote is something like 10-15%
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Erasmus » Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:35 pm

In my constituency it is 100% Labour, which raises the question as to what is the point of me voting.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by IanMcL » Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:43 pm

LoveCurryPies wrote:I’m wondering how many party heads will roll after the results. I suspect Jo Swinson and Jeremy Corbyn. Boris is so thick skinned, I doubt he would resign.
Mr C is Hardly likely to resign, when he is the new PM. Ms Swinson is new and young. She may hold some 'negotiating' powers. Mr J will cry.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Clarets4me » Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:59 pm

AndyClaret wrote:It predicts a close one in Burnley,

Labour 33.8 .... Tory 32.2
It's now moved to Labour 34.3% ( 12,401 ) beating the Conservatives into 2nd by 906 votes .... it has the Lib Dems and Brexit Party close together on 4,819 and 4,910 respectively, with the Greens on 1,851 and the 2 combined Independents on 723 ...

Other Candidates must look and wonder ... the Conservative, Neil Carmichael polled 45.9% ( 29,307 ) in Stroud, Gloucestershire in 2017 and still didn't win the seat !! Funny things, elections ! :D

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Clarets4me » Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:09 pm

IanMcL wrote:Mr C is Hardly likely to resign, when he is the new PM. Ms Swinson is new and young. She may hold some 'negotiating' powers. Mr J will cry.
If he does become PM, what happens to the 172 Labour MP's ( most of whom are still in situ ), who voted that they had no Confidence in Corbyn as Labour leader in June 2016 ....

Can they seriously sit there and back him as Prime Minister, Head of the security and armed services ?

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:10 pm

I’m finding this explanatory page of Electoral Calculus particularly fascinating.

I think it completely explains Brexit, Trump and wider populism, basically due to the two main parties not coping with people not being exactly on the traditional single left / right axis. It groups people into one of seven “tribes”.

https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/pol3d_main.html

An example being the tribe “strong left” which means economically very left wing, but also very liberal and global. Interesting that the graph shows this as being primarily one sweep of London, then Glasgow and Edinburgh. That isn’t many constituencies, and shows the problem Labour face because that tribe is their core current focus (and the SNPs who are similar).

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lowbankclaret » Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:41 pm

Clarets4me wrote:It's now moved to Labour 34.3% ( 12,401 ) beating the Conservatives into 2nd by 906 votes .... it has the Lib Dems and Brexit Party close together on 4,819 and 4,910 respectively, with the Greens on 1,851 and the 2 combined Independents on 723 ...

Other Candidates must look and wonder ... the Conservative, Neil Carmichael polled 45.9% ( 29,307 ) in Stroud, Gloucestershire in 2017 and still didn't win the seat !! Funny things, elections ! :D
The more I spend canvassing the more I am convinced Julie Cooper will poll just over 10,000.

Tom Commis, then UKIP, polled 6,864 in 2015 and I think Stewart will add a few thousand on that.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lowbankclaret » Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:46 pm

https://fullfact.org/election-2019/labo ... intenance/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Costings being challenged already. Like HS2 costs only go one way.

Labours spending currently stands at 95 billion a year, against the Tory 3 billion.

Anyone who does not look at that with a touch of suspicion, must just look at thing in blind faith.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lowbankclaret » Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:00 pm

EA978E32-31AE-4CB6-AEDA-0266048FB1BB.png
EA978E32-31AE-4CB6-AEDA-0266048FB1BB.png (398.36 KiB) Viewed 1404 times
That’s gunna hit lots of people hard.

Now as I understand it you have to pay the tax before you can inherit the rest. You might just lose it all.
Banks will not let money against an inheritance.

Now if that’s wrong I am sure someone on here will know.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Clarets4me » Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:09 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:
EA978E32-31AE-4CB6-AEDA-0266048FB1BB.png
That’s gunna hit lots of people hard. Now as I understand it you have to pay the tax before you can inherit the rest. You might just lose it all.
Banks will not let money against an inheritance.

Now if that’s wrong I am sure someone on here will know.
Back in the day, they would, based on a legal charge or a " Solicitors' Undertaking " ... not so sure these days, although I'm sure a specialist lender would ...

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by IanMcL » Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:22 pm

Clarets4me wrote:If he does become PM, what happens to the 172 Labour MP's ( most of whom are still in situ ), who voted that they had no Confidence in Corbyn as Labour leader in June 2016 ....

Can they seriously sit there and back him as Prime Minister, Head of the security and armed services ?
That is for their individual conscience.
Labour is a broad church!

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by IanMcL » Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:28 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:https://fullfact.org/election-2019/labo ... intenance/

Costings being challenged already. Like HS2 costs only go one way.

Labours spending currently stands at 95 billion a year, against the Tory 3 billion.

Anyone who does not look at that with a touch of suspicion, must just look at thing in blind faith.
I think folk should listen intently to their surroundings, whilst standing in a quiet space.
Stare at tour sentence for a short time.
'Labours spending currently stands at 95 billion a year, against the Tory 3 billion'

Ponder the two numbers and consider who will benefit most and who will not, from those 2 numbers.

Listen.

In the silence, when they really shut out the noise, they will hear a clunk and a rolling sound.

That will be the sound of the penny dropping.





The story of the haves and the have not.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lowbankclaret » Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:31 pm

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/12090 ... cooper-spt" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mentions Burnley!

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lowbankclaret » Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:35 pm

IanMcL wrote:That is for their individual conscience.
Labour is a broad church!

Not any more it’s not!

That’s why after over 50 years of membership my mum cancelled her Labour membership.

The extremists have taken over!!

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by IanMcL » Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:39 pm

Your mum is a born again political atheist!

Plenty of tories in same boat. Party bears no resemblance to the one nation tories of history (according to their own hype, not my belief). Unless in Johnson's continual parroting of the phrase, he means a national party.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by KateR » Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:47 pm

IanMcL wrote:I think folk should listen intently to their surroundings, whilst standing in a quiet space.
Stare at tour sentence for a short time.
'Labours spending currently stands at 95 billion a year, against the Tory 3 billion'

Ponder the two numbers and consider who will benefit most and who will not, from those 2 numbers.

Listen.

In the silence, when they really shut out the noise, they will hear a clunk and a rolling sound.

That will be the sound of the penny dropping.





The story of the haves and the have not.
I think you're deluded if you think the penny is dropping the way you think it is, it's not just the penny dropping but billions of them and you can guarantee the have nots will be paying more than there fair share of them

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lowbankclaret » Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:52 pm

KateR wrote:I think you're deluded if you think the penny is dropping the way you think it is, it's not just the penny dropping but billions of them and you can guarantee the have nots will be paying more than there fair share of them

Married allowance scrapped.

Single person 25% council tax discount scrapped.

Inheritance tax back down to 125k, which it’s the poor when they cannot pay.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by IanMcL » Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:56 pm

KateR wrote:I think you're deluded if you think the penny is dropping the way you think it is, it's not just the penny dropping but billions of them and you can guarantee the have nots will be paying more than there fair share of them
You could not be more wrong.
This is the one time in your life to be better off. Yes I am sure we will all pay something more along the way, however, the huge gains for all will be tangible and a bit like investing a pound to get many in return.

In terms of the spending....it is irrelevant. My council has hundreds of millions in loans. It is the safest torg council in the land. It borrows to the max. The decision is, 'can we pay the interest?''

Bit like a mortgage...how can I borrow this much? Because you can pay over time. You are lent the money because you are deemed a good bet - you have a job and likely to improve your circumstances over years, thus making paying back easier. If you only pay the interest - that's ok too.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by KateR » Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:02 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:
EA978E32-31AE-4CB6-AEDA-0266048FB1BB.png
That’s gunna hit lots of people hard.

Now as I understand it you have to pay the tax before you can inherit the rest. You might just lose it all.
Banks will not let money against an inheritance.

Now if that’s wrong I am sure someone on here will know.

Somewhere you will be able to borrow to pay the tax man, but of course there will be a guarantee/lien against the remainder for the lender to take his percentage first, so what you actually get will not be the remainder unless you are lucky enough to be able to pay the tax yourself first, doubt many will and of course whom do you think will be worst hit from this???

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by KateR » Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:08 pm

IanMcL wrote:You could not be more wrong.
This is the one time in your life to be better off. Yes I am sure we will all pay something more along the way, however, the huge gains for all will be tangible and a bit like investing a pound to get many in return.

In terms of the spending....it is irrelevant. My council has hundreds of millions in loans. It is the safest torg council in the land. It borrows to the max. The decision is, 'can we pay the interest?''

Bit like a mortgage...how can I borrow this much? Because you can pay over time. You are lent the money because you are deemed a good bet - you have a job and likely to improve your circumstances over years, thus making paying back easier. If you only pay the interest - that's ok too.
LOL, yes as I thought deluded.

Try going back to the last 3 Labour Governments and tell me how much better off the working man was when they were in power, what did they achieve other than a huge national debt, fiscal responsibility is not there strongpoint.

The Russian and Chinese forms of sharing are also a good yard stick from the past where the common working people benefited greatly.

Just to be clear I am not saying the Tories are the best thing since sliced bread, there is room for a lot of improvement, but I do feel they are more economically attuned and if I am putting my money anywhere it certainly will not be with Labour.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by dermotdermot » Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:35 pm

IanMcL wrote:That is for their individual conscience.
Labour is a broad church!
It used to be a broad church but no longer. It is now totalitarian. You do what the leader says. I just hope they get hammered so we might finally see the back of that festering subversive. I voted to remain and have always voted for Labour, apart from at the last election, but I’m voting for the Conservatives as I detest Corbyn that much. It’s a price to pay, but I prefer democracy.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lowbankclaret » Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:37 pm

KateR wrote:Somewhere you will be able to borrow to pay the tax man, but of course there will be a guarantee/lien against the remainder for the lender to take his percentage first, so what you actually get will not be the remainder unless you are lucky enough to be able to pay the tax yourself first, doubt many will and of course whom do you think will be worst hit from this???
I am always asked for a link or proof.

Can you provide proof you can borrow.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by IanMcL » Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:45 pm

dermotdermot wrote:It used to be a broad church but no longer. It is now totalitarian. You do what the leader says. I just hope they get hammered so we might finally see the back of that festering subversive. I voted to remain and have always voted for Labour, apart from at the last election, but I’m voting for the Conservatives as I detest Corbyn that much. It’s a price to pay, but I prefer democracy.
Not sure that's a vote for democracy dermot! More purgatory!

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by IanMcL » Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:50 pm

KateR wrote:LOL, yes as I thought deluded.

Try going back to the last 3 Labour Governments and tell me how much better off the working man was when they were in power, what did they achieve other than a huge national debt, fiscal responsibility is not there strongpoint.

The Russian and Chinese forms of sharing are also a good yard stick from the past where the common working people benefited greatly.

Just to be clear I am not saying the Tories are the best thing since sliced bread, there is room for a lot of improvement, but I do feel they are more economically attuned and if I am putting my money anywhere it certainly will not be with Labour.
The Labour govs did fantastic things - far more than tories ever do. Got caught up in the US induced financial disaster, thanks to some very dodgy uk bankers with a big W. Gordon Brown ensured tge damage to families was minimised. Not sure you get that from thatcherite tossers.

Delusion...voting tory and thinking it does you good, like a Guinness.

The English do like their flagellism!

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Darthlaw » Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:51 pm

Last Labour government - “I’m sorry, there’s no money left.”

But sure, give em the country’s wallet again.

IanMcL clearly doesn’t give a flyer about fiscal responsibility, just kicking the can of debt down the road for someone else (probably “the rich”), to pay later. The irony that it’s the tories who usually have to clean up the mess Labour makes, is no doubt lost on him.
This user liked this post: KateR

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by IanMcL » Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:55 pm

Darthlaw wrote:Last Labour government - “I’m sorry, there’s no money left.”

But sure, give em the country’s wallet again.
That was the world economic disaster caused by usa.
Labour managed better than any rmtories, ever, until that external calamity, made worse by uk bank incompetence.

Are you better or worse off these last 10 years?
Are your public services better or worse?

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by KateR » Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:58 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:I am always asked for a link or proof.

Can you provide proof you can borrow.

LOL, no of course I can't provide proof, I said "somewhere", that was a clue as to "I don't know", however I have the utmost faith in my fellow man that someone will be thinking of this and more than willing to take the misery that the Labour gov would cause and just add a little more to rub salt in the raw wounds.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Darthlaw » Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:59 pm

IanMcL wrote:That was the world economic disaster caused by usa.
Always someone else’s fault, eh? Under who’s watch were the financial services in the UK running amok, Ian?

You’ve even described your thoughts on debt a few posts above with the ‘can we afford the interest’. Keen to take the country into a wonga loan just to get your unicorn manifesto promises to land.

I have to say, as a caricature of Labour’s approach to fiscal responsibility - you’re nailing it.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Mala591 » Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:08 pm

Lowbank. What happens if Julie Cooper scrapes to victory due to Burnley's leave vote being split between the Tories and the Brexit Party?

What happens then if Johnson missed out on a majority by just one MP?

Brexit will probably be lost and the Burnley Brexit Party will be responsible.

Has this thought not crossed your mind?

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lowbankclaret » Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:11 pm

KateR wrote:LOL, no of course I can't provide proof, I said "somewhere", that was a clue as to "I don't know", however I have the utmost faith in my fellow man that someone will be thinking of this and more than willing to take the misery that the Labour gov would cause and just add a little more to rub salt in the raw wounds.
My mum keeps telling me there’s enough to pay it that is accessible , but not under these new rules.
She knows you cannot borrow to pay it.

It puts some people in real trouble trying to pay the tax.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lowbankclaret » Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:13 pm

Mala591 wrote:Lowbank. What happens if Julie Cooper scrapes to victory due to Burnley's leave vote being split between the Tories and the Brexit Party?

What happens then if Johnson missed out on a majority by just one MP?

Brexit will probably be lost and the Burnley Brexit Party will be responsible.

Has this thought not crossed your mind?

Yep, cross I will have to bear.

I have faith I will be looking her in the face when she loses.

My place going to the count not yet confirmed.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:14 pm

IanMcL wrote:That was the world economic disaster caused by usa.
Labour managed better than any rmtories, ever, until that external calamity, made worse by uk bank incompetence.

Are you better or worse off these last 10 years?
Are your public services better or worse?
Labour absolutely failed to protect the UK from another recession, in fact they probably made it worse with their view that they'd stopped the Boom and Bust nature of the UK economy.

Yeah let's put them in charge again shall we because what's the worse the could happen...

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