General Election Is On

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dsr
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by dsr » Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:42 pm

Inchy wrote:I am fed up of the amount of support this Tory government are getting off decent traditional labour voting people just because they don’t want to see Corbyn in government.

If you don’t like Corbyn then good! I don’t particularly like him either. I don’t particularly believe a lot of his policies will work either. Does that mean I am going to stick up for Boris when he tells lies? Does it mean I will stick up for a Tory government when they force people to starvation? Does it mean I will stick up for the Tories when they make the poorest suffer and the richest prosper?

Does it B0ll0CKS!

If people don’t like this labour rabble I can totally understand but if people support this Tory mob like they are going to be the second coming then I really question their morality. This is a horrific government.
If people want to vote Tory to avoid what they perceive an even worse labour government then fair enough. But let’s not pretend that this Tory lot are decent. They are incompetent at best and evil at worst
EVIL? Have you the first idea what "EVIL" means? We know evil - Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, that sort of evil. Is that sort of evil what you have in mind? Specifically, what in the Tory manifesto do you think qualifies for the epithet "evil"?

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Elizabeth » Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:48 pm

Who are the people Crosspool?

Maybe it's my age but these so called 'people' are always outraged and victims.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Paul Waine » Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:50 pm

Did I hear this correctly, re nationalisation...."we won't borrow money, we will issue government bonds....." (don't all jump on me if these weren't JC's precise words, please).

It's got to be hoped that the First Lord of the Treasury - which is one of the other titles for the Prime Minister - has a little better understanding of government finance that that statement suggests.

Sleep well, everyone.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Paul Waine » Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:54 pm

And, did I hear this correctly, from AN this time: 31,000 people pay 12% of the income tax.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Spiral » Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:56 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:Neil relentlessly homed in on Corbyn’s four achilles heels, and, to mix my metaphors, holed him below the waterline. The four are:

1. Antisemitism
2. Brexit neutrality (obviously to try to retain Leave voters)
3. WASPI women (obviously to try to win over a few million female voters after the PM’s question on Friday)
4. Danger to national security.

All four were devastating. Any one should sink a campaign. That it won’t shows us how polarised things have got.

p.s. I look forward to the Johnson one too, but apart from trust I don’t see the landmines lurking.

p.p.s. Particularly devastating was the evidence that if just a few thousand high earners leave the country the tax plan is in pieces.
Okay, a few thoughts now my blood pressure is down. The words 'to a fault' have never been more aptly used than to describe Corbyn, whom I'll still be voting for (and equally, against Johnson) in spite of how much his principles get in the way of more pragmatic politicking like, I dunno', giving a sodding answer to a question that at least makes tabloid headline writers use their imagination a little bit. BUT, while it's damage limitation at this point and the very best labour could possibly hope for is a -1 minority Tory govt, there are a few points that on reflection might not be as fatal as they might initially have seemed. Bear in mind two things: undecided voter attention span and efficacy of superficial rhetoric...

(Not an exoneration because the interview was a mess, but a plea in mitigation)

1. I don't know if 'don't know' voters are going to be swayed by the 'Rothchild Zionism' quote. Most people with skin in that game have already settled and most undecideds probably don't have a clue what that even means. I barely do, but daft conspiracy theories by their nature never do make sense. I wonder if folks zone out a little when hearing this, especially those tuning in or reading papers to hear about their own personal more immediate concerns. Corbyn will see an apology as a de facto admission of the validity and legitimacy of what he will undoubtedly see as smears, and I imagine this is a deliberate strategy. An admission of guilt would be more damaging than a protest of innocence, which on a superficial level will be how this is framed: guilt vs innocence. Is he an anti-Semite or is he not. Without trying to be patronising to low-information voters (but failing at it, admittedly), most folks with an appreciation for nuance have already pitched their tent. The line of questioning will be digested as 'another' labour AS story.

2. I'm astonished that it's taken so long for labour to adopt the word 'neutral' to describe their position, but better late than never, and it's more difficult to attack when Corbyn presents himself as an unbiased referee of sorts. Again, how much superficial rhetoric cuts through will matter. For all the rights and wrongs of neutrality, it is a position by virtue of being distinctively neither for or against, by it's nature appears more reconciliatory, and is a much better soundbite than a long, detailed, piecemeal explanation for a policy, which, again, apologies for sounding patronising, isn't rewarded by a lot of voters.

3. No idea what waspi was until a few weeks ago, and I pay a bit of attention to politics! (Obviously not that much). Costing is a problem, but I reckon this will be out of the news cycle within a day or two due to how niche it. It's difficult to be provoked by the costing of an ostensibly righteous policy barely anyone cares about, and so many numbers are being thrown about in this election that people will become numb to that particular one.

4. He should have just said 'kill the b@stard', but again, I think most folks have made their mind on his pacifism back in 2017. The IRA grilling he took from brillo pad in 2017 was far more brutal from my recollection, and his stance on Trident during that election more significant than Baghdaddi, IMO. Interestingly, a couple of people I've spoken to who aren't too hot on Corbyn thought brillo's line of questioning on that topic was a bit preposterous.

Overall, a shambles, but we've been here before, though perhaps this time without the novelty and benefit of it being a honeymoon period, if that even matters. The only saving grace (just) is that Johnson's grilling will be replacing it in the news cycle by early next week. Bleak.

On potential landmines, the big non-obvious one is the ISC Russia report. In light of the recent BBC whistleblower, questions will be raised of the BBC if Johnson isn't challenged on or is given an easy ride on this. It's legitimate national security and personal conduct type stuff. One cabinet minister was concerned that he was capable of being blackmailed.
Last edited by Spiral on Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:33 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndrewJB » Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:05 am

Inchy wrote:I am fed up of the amount of support this Tory government are getting off decent traditional labour voting people just because they don’t want to see Corbyn in government.

If you don’t like Corbyn then good! I don’t particularly like him either. I don’t particularly believe a lot of his policies will work either. Does that mean I am going to stick up for Boris when he tells lies? Does it mean I will stick up for a Tory government when they force people to starvation? Does it mean I will stick up for the Tories when they make the poorest suffer and the richest prosper?

Does it B0ll0CKS!

If people don’t like this labour rabble I can totally understand but if people support this Tory mob like they are going to be the second coming then I really question their morality. This is a horrific government.
If people want to vote Tory to avoid what they perceive an even worse labour government then fair enough. But let’s not pretend that this Tory lot are decent. They are incompetent at best and evil at worst
I watched the interview, and it's not a car crash at all. Neill's points were:

Will you apologise for Labour's "anti Semitism"? - for what? is Corbyn personally responsible for anti semitism within Labour, when it was worse ten years ago? Should Corbyn be familiar with the various people Nell brought up?

The next point was Brexit, and that Corbyn should take a stance. Why? It's a people's vote. Who will take the country forward after, if not someone who was neutral?

The next point was on spending - specifically that on WASPI women. They've been ripped off, so Labour is going to right the wrong. But Corbyn wouldnt say how it should be found. Next question is, where has the money gone? More than this, public sector employees have suffered wage reductions over time due to our tory government, and where has that money gone? We all deserve answers on this. It might be the money has gone offshore to Bermuda, or other sunny places - so let's bring it back.

Last point Neill made to Corbyn was about killing poeple. Would you? If you have to? Corbyn said yes, so that should be the end of it, but Neill had to provide a particular example, and Corbyn scoffed at this. He's not a psychopath, which is always reassuring for us as people.
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by tiger76 » Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:07 am

Spijed wrote:Electoral Reform Society

Verified account

@electoralreform
Follow Follow @electoralreform
More
NEW: There have been a massive 2.8m applications to #RegisterToVote since the election was called.

That's over a million more than the comparable pre-deadline period during the last election, which saw 1.7m applications
There has been a high-profile campaign at my workplace (a university) to encourage students to register,whether it's has had any impact i can't say,i'm not even certain how many of our student intake will be eligible to vote in the GE.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Elizabeth » Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:30 am

We are all in denial Andrew. Some of the time at least

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by claretandy » Wed Nov 27, 2019 5:44 am

This just about covers the "whatabout Boris" line.
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by HieronymousBoschHobs » Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:02 am

What's sad is that many of the Tory posters on here attacking Labour for anti-semitism are the same kind of people who would have taken a job at Auschwitz because it offered a good pension.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by HieronymousBoschHobs » Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:13 am

If this media teacup-based storm has any effect it will be to reinforce the idea that powerful people are desperate for Corbyn to be returned to the back benches and, as has been the case in the States for many a year, for a 'left-wing' candidate more amenable to the interest on a few hundred blokes' piles of mega gold to be to be reinstated.

That is nonsense of course, but the electorate loves it so far as I can tell: another pitcher of kerosene on the conspiratorial fire and we might just get a reverse-Trump, left-wing populist government.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:49 am

Spiral wrote:Okay, a few thoughts now my blood pressure is down. The words 'to a fault' have never been more aptly used than to describe Corbyn, whom I'll still be voting for (and equally, against Johnson) in spite of how much his principles get in the way of more pragmatic politicking like, I dunno', giving a sodding answer to a question that at least makes tabloid headline writers use their imagination a little bit. BUT, while it's damage limitation at this point and the very best labour could possibly hope for is a -1 minority Tory govt, there are a few points that on reflection might not be as fatal as they might initially have seemed. Bear in mind two things: undecided voter attention span and efficacy of superficial rhetoric...

(Not an exoneration because the interview was a mess, but a plea in mitigation)

1. I don't know if 'don't know' voters are going to be swayed by the 'Rothchild Zionism' quote. Most people with skin in that game have already settled and most undecideds probably don't have a clue what that even means. I barely do, but daft conspiracy theories by their nature never do make sense. I wonder if folks zone out a little when hearing this, especially those tuning in or reading papers to hear about their own personal more immediate concerns. Corbyn will see an apology as a de facto admission of the validity and legitimacy of what he will undoubtedly see as smears, and I imagine this is a deliberate strategy. An admission of guilt would be more damaging than a protest of innocence, which on a superficial level will be how this is framed: guilt vs innocence. Is he an anti-Semite or is he not. Without trying to be patronising to low-information voters (but failing at it, admittedly), most folks with an appreciation for nuance have already pitched their tent. The line of questioning will be digested as 'another' labour AS story.

2. I'm astonished that it's taken so long for labour to adopt the word 'neutral' to describe their position, but better late than never, and it's more difficult to attack when Corbyn presents himself as an unbiased referee of sorts. Again, how much superficial rhetoric cuts through will matter. For all the rights and wrongs of neutrality, it is a position by virtue of being distinctively neither for or against, by it's nature appears more reconciliatory, and is a much better soundbite than a long, detailed, piecemeal explanation for a policy, which, again, apologies for sounding patronising, isn't rewarded by a lot of voters.

3. No idea what waspi was until a few weeks ago, and I pay a bit of attention to politics! (Obviously not that much). Costing is a problem, but I reckon this will be out of the news cycle within a day or two due to how niche it. It's difficult to be provoked by the costing of an ostensibly righteous policy barely anyone cares about, and so many numbers are being thrown about in this election that people will become numb to that particular one.

4. He should have just said 'kill the b@stard', but again, I think most folks have made their mind on his pacifism back in 2017. The IRA grilling he took from brillo pad in 2017 was far more brutal from my recollection, and his stance on Trident during that election more significant than Baghdaddi, IMO. Interestingly, a couple of people I've spoken to who aren't too hot on Corbyn thought brillo's line of questioning on that topic was a bit preposterous.

Overall, a shambles, but we've been here before, though perhaps this time without the novelty and benefit of it being a honeymoon period, if that even matters. The only saving grace (just) is that Johnson's grilling will be replacing it in the news cycle by early next week. Bleak.

On potential landmines, the big non-obvious one is the ISC Russia report. In light of the recent BBC whistleblower, questions will be raised of the BBC if Johnson isn't challenged on or is given an easy ride on this. It's legitimate national security and personal conduct type stuff. One cabinet minister was concerned that he was capable of being blackmailed.
I think its a good thing that Corbyn wasn't the last interview, but as long as Johnson struggles on where he is weak (everything that involves detail) and he is on last, then the damage will be minimal.

But lets be clear, Corbyn destroyed weeks of good work to try to calm down Jewish voters with the Rothschilds thing.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndrewJB » Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:58 am

Elizabeth wrote:We are all in denial Andrew. Some of the time at least
Rather than patronising me, you could attempt to answer my points.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Inchy » Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:01 am

dsr wrote:EVIL? Have you the first idea what "EVIL" means? We know evil - Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, that sort of evil. Is that sort of evil what you have in mind? Specifically, what in the Tory manifesto do you think qualifies for the epithet "evil"?

I would say forcing people into poverty needlessly is evil. I would say underfunding the NHS to the point where people are needlessly dying is evil. I would say 17000 people dying whist waiting for their disability benefit as evil.


Yeah they are not dropping bombs on people but no doubt Tory policies over the past 8 years have contributed to the deaths of many people. Evil

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:07 am

Inchy wrote:I would say forcing people into poverty needlessly is evil. I would say underfunding the NHS to the point where people are needlessly dying is evil. I would say 17000 people dying whist waiting for their disability benefit as evil.


Yeah they are not dropping bombs on people but no doubt Tory policies over the past 8 years have contributed to the deaths of many people. Evil
Still don't think evil is fair.

Look, they are using Brexit as a cover to get voters to give them a clean run for five years.

Thats not evil, its just calculating.

And if they succeed, then it says a lot about the voters ability to judge the long term effects that their decisions have.

Absolutely no doubt that the Tories are toxic for social care, NHS, anything that is state run and absolutely necessary, but do voters think that?

I'm not sure they do, or at the very least they convince themselves that it will all be ok.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:11 am

Inchy wrote:I would say forcing people into poverty needlessly is evil. I would say underfunding the NHS to the point where people are needlessly dying is evil. I would say 17000 people dying whist waiting for their disability benefit as evil.


Yeah they are not dropping bombs on people but no doubt Tory policies over the past 8 years have contributed to the deaths of many people. Evil
I'm aware you work in the NHS etc, but there are several examples of people needlessly dying in hospitals even when they had the funds to stop that happening.

Mid Staffordshire Trust for example was so poorly ran that hundreds of people died under their care when they would've lived at another hospital.
That was during the first part of this century when they were getting all the money they wanted.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Inchy » Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:16 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:I'm aware you work in the NHS etc, but there are several examples of people needlessly dying in hospitals even when they had the funds to stop that happening.

Mid Staffordshire Trust for example was so poorly ran that hundreds of people died under their care when they would've lived at another hospital.
That was during the first part of this century when they were getting all the money they wanted.

That wasn’t the norm though was it?

Ok, more people dying needlessly in hospital.

More people being forced to live in pain due to not having elective operations as waiting lists are longer than ever and the annual “stop all elective surgery” which hospitals now do as there are no beds.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:20 am

You do know don’t you Lancs that the Tories have been in charge of the NHS for over two thirds of its existence?

It has done very well in that time.

The demands of an ageing population put huge pressure on an ideology of a low tax, small public sector economy, and no doubts the Tories are wrestling with this, but to call them toxic is way, way too far. I think people get blinkers on regarding this subject.

The key is for the needs of the NHS to be independently assessed by a large expert group of, say, 200 people, and for the Treasury to fund this without political interference. No cuts, no political management, just funding a “best value” NHS. It will still be dependant on other government policies such as migration but would be largely self managing. A system like that will be fit for the future and it is one that I have spent my whole career fighting for.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by RMutt » Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:20 am

The media are having to up their game this election. If they are going to negate the Johnson effect of lies, deceit, austerity, repeating tired phrases about brexit, bumbling, Russian meddling etc, etc, etc. they will need to do better than in previous polls. Criticism for wearing the wrong coat, falling over on the beach or not being good looking enough isn’t going to cut it this time. Which they know of course and have responded to accordingly.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by taio » Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:20 am

Inchy wrote:That wasn’t the norm though was it?

Ok, more people dying needlessly in hospital.

More people being forced to live in pain due to not having elective operations as waiting lists are longer than ever and the annual “stop all elective surgery” which hospitals now do as there are no beds.
You should know working in the NHS that the challenges are largely due to unprecedented increases in demand caused by people living longer with more complex conditions. The same problems exist in Scotland and Wales under different leadership.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:26 am

Inchy wrote:That wasn’t the norm though was it?

Ok, more people dying needlessly in hospital.

More people being forced to live in pain due to not having elective operations as waiting lists are longer than ever and the annual “stop all elective surgery” which hospitals now do as there are no beds.
The big crisis (of many) is in frail elderly, where costs are enormous, lengths of hospital stay are huge, and social care doesn’t have enough provision for them so they stay in beds even after a Section 5 notice has been issued. This then “knocks on” to other patients in terms of bed capacity.

Those of us managing those situations find it incredibly difficult, it is one of the hardest management challenges in the UK. Sure, politicians could do more, but they don’t have a magic wand. It can only be solved by providing far more care closer to home which is what many of these old people want.

p.s. stop using the Independent sector to help with elective lists and the problem would be far far worse.

p.p.s. there is a mindset regarding the NHS that managers = bad, clinicians = good. But these issues are way past the skillset of most clinicians. They require strategic planning and decision making, project management, cutting edge data analytics and negotiation skills (e.g. with local authority social care executives). There is too much bureaucracy, granted, but the best top management is needed, equivalent to a FTSE100 company in talent.
Last edited by CrosspoolClarets on Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by RMutt » Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:26 am

CrosspoolClarets wrote:You do know don’t you Lancs that the Tories have been in charge of the NHS for over two thirds of its existence?

It has done very well in that time.

The demands of an ageing population put huge pressure on an ideology of a low tax, small public sector economy, and no doubts the Tories are wrestling with this, but to call them toxic is way, way too far. I think people get blinkers on regarding this subject.

The key is for the needs of the NHS to be independently assessed by a large expert group of, say, 200 people, and for the Treasury to fund this without political interference. No cuts, no political management, just funding a “best value” NHS. It will still be dependant on other government policies such as migration but would be largely self managing. A system like that will be fit for the future and it is one that I have spent my whole career fighting for.
You could make this case for other areas of government like education for example. The Tories stopped listening to experts years ago. When in education, Gove dismissed his experts and made up his own policy. Ask anyone working in education what they think of Gove’s, back of a fag packet ideas.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:30 am

CrosspoolClarets wrote:You do know don’t you Lancs that the Tories have been in charge of the NHS for over two thirds of its existence?

It has done very well in that time.

The demands of an ageing population put huge pressure on an ideology of a low tax, small public sector economy, and no doubts the Tories are wrestling with this, but to call them toxic is way, way too far. I think people get blinkers on regarding this subject.

The key is for the needs of the NHS to be independently assessed by a large expert group of, say, 200 people, and for the Treasury to fund this without political interference. No cuts, no political management, just funding a “best value” NHS. It will still be dependant on other government policies such as migration but would be largely self managing. A system like that will be fit for the future and it is one that I have spent my whole career fighting for.
I used to work in it.

When labour ran it, money was almost certainly wasted, but at the same time, it worked at doing what its supposed to be do, which was a national health service.

When the tories got in, everyone expected a squeeze, but its just got tighter and tighter. I left because our long term work plan around the kids came to fruition, but I don't envy anyone who stays, especially in departments that are run at an absolute shoe string.
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:30 am

Most depressing "Anywhere but Westminister" yet

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ster-video" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:32 am

CrosspoolClarets wrote:The big crisis (of many) is in frail elderly, where costs are enormous, lengths of hospital stay are huge, and social care doesn’t have enough provision for them so they stay in beds even after a Section 5 notice has been issued. This then “knocks on” to other patients in terms of bed capacity.

Those of us managing those situations find it incredibly difficult, it is one of the hardest management challenges in the UK. Sure, politicians could do more, but they don’t have a magic wand. It can only be solved by providing far more care closer to home which is what many of these old people want.

p.s. stop using the Independent sector to help with elective lists and the problem would be far far worse.
The current government have had nine years to try to sort this out. They haven't even attempted to, and the latest manifesto still doesn't address it.

Thats what I mean about a blank sheet of paper if we give the Tories five more years. They haven't promised anything (because that all costs) and people want to believe that it can all be solved without money being taken off them.

Dishonest politics at best, bloody dangerous for the long term stability of the country at worst.

And thats before you get into anything else that is in crisis as well.
Last edited by Lancasterclaret on Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Inchy » Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:32 am

An aging population is an issue I agree. I’m
Not sure cutting funding and making it a lot harder to train to be a nurse way a proactive way of managing that though.


Also cuts to mental health services mean a lot of acute hospital beds are taken by people who have hit crisis point because they are not receiving the MH support in primary care.

What have this government done to proactively improve the NHS?

What have they done to make things worse?

They have created policies over the past 8 years which have actively made things worse. They knew that as well. They knew it would lead to more needless illness and death

Evil
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:35 am

Spiral wrote:On potential landmines, the big non-obvious one is the ISC Russia report. In light of the recent BBC whistleblower, questions will be raised of the BBC if Johnson isn't challenged on or is given an easy ride on this. It's legitimate national security and personal conduct type stuff. One cabinet minister was concerned that he was capable of being blackmailed.
Agreed.

Neil has not yet agreed a date with Johnson :shock:

The other big shock with Corbyn is that he didn’t know what government bonds were in enough detail. Not having that level of knowledge but proposing such a big nationalisation drive is dangerous - he would be unable to make a balanced decision at the Cabinet table and the Chancellor would be able to have a free run. No government can succeed in that way, even with a modest agenda.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:43 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:The current government have had nine years to try to sort this out. They haven't even attempted to, and the latest manifesto still doesn't address it.

Thats what I mean about a blank sheet of paper if we give the Tories five more years. They haven't promised anything (because that all costs) and people want to believe that it can all be solved without money being taken off them.

Dishonest politics at best, bloody dangerous for the long term stability of the country at worst.

And thats before you get into anything else that is in crisis as well.
They have actually done a hell of a lot - mainly in developing the NHS Long Term Plan which does a lot of the things I just wrote about, but the social care issue is the sticking point. Theresa May tried to solve it but got panned for the Dementia Tax and had to drop it. Boris is thus rightly too scared to include a variation because if he did he would lose.

Not enough voters want to pay for it because we all like to think (wrongly) that it won’t be us ending up in these beds, so a cross party approach is needed in the next Parliament no matter who wins.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Inchy » Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:44 am

CrosspoolClarets wrote:Agreed.

Neil has not yet agreed a date with Johnson :shock:

The other big shock with Corbyn is that he didn’t know what government bonds were in enough detail. Not having that level of knowledge but proposing such a big nationalisation drive is dangerous - he would be unable to make a balanced decision at the Cabinet table and the Chancellor would be able to have a free run. No government can succeed in that way, even with a modest agenda.
If I was Johnson’s advisor I’d be telling him not to do an interview with Neil. He has nothing to gain and everything to lose

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Elizabeth » Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:47 am

Andrew , your defence of Corbyn is admirable but where could I start when political commentators from all sides, even Labour supporting journals , don't agree with you.
I will throw this back at you with the question, 'What leadership qualities did Corbyn demonstrate in this interview? '
Last edited by Elizabeth on Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Inchy » Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:48 am

CrosspoolClarets wrote:They have actually done a hell of a lot - mainly in developing the NHS Long Term Plan which does a lot of the things I just wrote about, but the social care issue is the sticking point. Theresa May tried to solve it but got panned for the Dementia Tax and had to drop it. Boris is thus rightly too scared to include a variation because if he did he would lose.

Not enough voters want to pay for it because we all like to think (wrongly) that it won’t be us ending up in these beds, so a cross party approach is needed in the next Parliament no matter who wins.
It’s very easy to come up with a long term plan for the NHS. Particularly if you won’t be running it for a long time.

To be fair 9 years is a fair long time. What’s improved in 9 years?


I agree on having a cross party approach to running the NHS

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:50 am

Inchy wrote:If I was Johnson’s advisor I’d be telling him not to do an interview with Neil. He has nothing to gain and everything to lose
If I was his advisor I would be telling him to do it ASAP for that reason.

It is what true leaders do. Whether he is a true leader remains to be seen.

I’m about to go and do some work but just wanted to say I agree with the above points on mental health, nurse training etc.

In general (I have had some abuse on here over this) I hope Johnson is different and am voting for him because I find this Labour too dangerous, BUT I viewed Cameron and Osborne's time as a total disaster (and I did not vote for them). No doubts those two are out of touch toffs who do not get the needs of ordinary people, and most of that mental health neglect came on their watch, as did the wrong choices to address the financial crisis they inherited.

Not disagreeing with any poster on that.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Inchy » Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:51 am

Elizabeth wrote:Andrew , your defence of Corbyn is admirable but where could I start when political commentators from all sides, even Labour supporting journals , don't agree with you.
I will throw this back at you with the question, 'What leadership qualities did Corbyn demonstrate in this interview? '

Not many. Neither does Boris

How lucky are the British people

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Inchy » Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:54 am

CrosspoolClarets wrote:If I was his advisor I would be telling him to do it ASAP for that reason.

It is what true leaders do. Whether he is a true leader remains to be seen.

I’m about to go and do some work but just wanted to say I agree with the above points on mental health, nurse training etc.

In general (I have had some abuse on here over this) I hope Johnson is different and am voting for him because I find this Labour too dangerous, BUT I viewed Cameron and Osborne's time as a total disaster (and I did not vote for them). No doubts those two are out of touch toffs who do not get the needs of ordinary people, and most of that mental health neglect came on their watch, as did the wrong choices to address the financial crisis they inherited.

Not disagreeing with any poster on that.

As things stand Johnson is a sure thing to win this election, albeit with a minority gov.

If he goes and makes a massive balls up in the Neil interview that might make a difference, although I feel Johnson could wave his manhood around during the interview and still get in power

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:03 am

CrosspoolClarets wrote:They have actually done a hell of a lot - mainly in developing the NHS Long Term Plan which does a lot of the things I just wrote about, but the social care issue is the sticking point. Theresa May tried to solve it but got panned for the Dementia Tax and had to drop it. Boris is thus rightly too scared to include a variation because if he did he would lose.

Not enough voters want to pay for it because we all like to think (wrongly) that it won’t be us ending up in these beds, so a cross party approach is needed in the next Parliament no matter who wins.
But you will never get a cross party approach with politics as it is at the moment.

Its up to the government to run the country both in the short and long term, and no offence, sometimes that means making unpopular decisions.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:06 am

CrosspoolClarets wrote:If I was his advisor I would be telling him to do it ASAP for that reason.

It is what true leaders do. Whether he is a true leader remains to be seen.

I’m about to go and do some work but just wanted to say I agree with the above points on mental health, nurse training etc.

In general (I have had some abuse on here over this) I hope Johnson is different and am voting for him because I find this Labour too dangerous, BUT I viewed Cameron and Osborne's time as a total disaster (and I did not vote for them). No doubts those two are out of touch toffs who do not get the needs of ordinary people, and most of that mental health neglect came on their watch, as did the wrong choices to address the financial crisis they inherited.

Not disagreeing with any poster on that.
I don't know how you think Johnson can be different. He got to be PM by caving into the right of the party, the ERG, the freetrade, the minimal state interventionist, the market rules all.

At least be honest with us and say that is exactly why you are backing him.

I can't back him because he's completely untrustworthy. I don't trust him to do what is best for the country if it tarnished "brand Boris".

I genuinely think he doesn't have any principles or beliefs at all, and will change tack as soon as he sees an advantage for him.

Its profoundly depressing state of affairs all round, and that is before we even get to the stage where the Brexit that was promised is going to be nothing of the sort.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by IanMcL » Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:19 am

Cross pool- why do you think Cameron & Osborne distanced themselves from Johnson? His only motivation is the furthering of B. Johnson, to the detriment of anything else.

A disaster of a human being.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndyClaret » Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:21 am

When carpet bagging goes horribly wrong....


https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/ ... 24672?s=19" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by FactualFrank » Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:23 am

Bojo may be best just replying with, "No comment".

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Spijed » Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:25 am

There's been an interesting point made that because Corbyn didn't apologise it's that that has mainly dominated the headlines and most people will miss many of the poor answers he gave to other questions.

Sounds like it could have been a deliberate policy for that very reason.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:26 am

Not sure if this should be on this thread or the Brexit thread but a plea from trace experts for some realism in the public discourse about the future trade deals.

https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/11 ... 16/photo/1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by IanMcL » Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:28 am

The most disturbing thing about this election is the open use of lies and untruths and 'fake news', by B Johnson and co, to achieve a selective victory, no matter what and Mr J Corbyn's reluctance to be direct on anything, where he has a personal position.

Tories playing Trump is a disaster for British politics. There is no turning back.

Corbyn is the opposite. If you can't say it out loud, for fear of upsetting someone, don't say it. Instead of upsetting 50%, he upsets 100%!

We are doomed!

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Clarets4me » Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:37 am

I've only glanced ...

Are Labour planning to abolish the 25% discount on Council Tax for single occupancy ? Did Corbyn admit, ( although I suspect he didn't know ), that a Pensioner on 14,000 a year would pay an extra £500 in tax p.a. ?

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Mala591 » Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:46 am

Let's not forget that this is a Brexit 'people's vote' general election:

If you definately want to remain in the EU - vote Lib Dem
If you definitely want to leave the EU - vote Conservative

If you are totally confused and aren't sure what you want - vote Labour

Bear in mind that if you vote Lib Dem or Labour that you will be voting for a free for all/open door immigration policy.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by If it be your will » Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:59 am

dsr wrote:EVIL? Have you the first idea what "EVIL" means? We know evil - Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, that sort of evil. Is that sort of evil what you have in mind? Specifically, what in the Tory manifesto do you think qualifies for the epithet "evil"?
Is chucking a frog on a campfire then cackling with glee as its legs shrivelled in a hopeless attempt to escape the embers evil?

I'd rather the Tories had done that than brought in Universal Credit, that's all.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by FactualFrank » Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:09 am

If you cut 20,000 police officers then employ 20,000 police officers how many more police officers do you have?
If you promise to build 200,000 homes under the affordable housing scheme then don't build any how many have you built?
If you say you're building 40 new hospitals, but only have the funding to renovate 6 existing hospitals how many new hospitals are you really building?

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:10 am

If it be your will wrote:Is chucking a frog on a campfire then cackling with glee as its legs shrivelled in a hopeless attempt to escape the embers evil?

I'd rather the Tories had done that than brought in Universal Credit, that's all.
I BET THEY DID THAT AS KIDS AS WELL.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:12 am

FactualFrank wrote:If you cut 20,000 police officers then employ 20,000 police officers how many more police officers do you have?
If you promise to build 200,000 homes under the affordable housing scheme then don't build any how many have you built?
If you say you're building 40 new hospitals, but only have the funding to renovate 6 existing hospitals how many new hospitals are you really building?
1. I thought we were still down 1,000 police officers, so its -1000
2. None
3. None

But when the few media outlets call this out, they can't get politicians on to answer their questions.

That tactic used to be roundly condemned by all sides of the media, but its certainly not the case anymore.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by If it be your will » Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:15 am

Inchy wrote:As things stand Johnson is a sure thing to win this election, albeit with a minority gov.

If he goes and makes a massive balls up in the Neil interview that might make a difference, although I feel Johnson could wave his manhood around during the interview and still get in power
I honestly don't think these interviews, TV debates and the rest of it make a blind bit of difference. It's just pointless political theatre. For all the talk of 'disaster' this and 'car-crash' that (it actually seemed ok to me, for what it's worth!), the odds on oddschecker of a Labour win didn't budge in the hours following: none of the odds lengthened, and 2 bookies even shortened their odds ever so slightly. Boris will likely be made to look silly too - that's the whole point - but it won't affect the outcome. They're for entertainment purposes only.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:18 am

Labour claiming they have evidence that the NHS is for sale.

If they can back it up, this is the sort of thing that makes people change their vote.

Must be true btw, the right wing twitter accounts are already spinning like mad.

They only do that when they realise there is a risk.

Locked