General Election Is On

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AndrewJB
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndrewJB » Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:41 am

Inchy wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 7:00 am
Boris won last night purely on the fact he wasnt humiliated. If Corbyn was a strong leader he would have gone for Boris. He would have highlight all the lies. He should have focussed on that and less on his own policies. Boris had an easy ride. All he have to do is divert every question to brexit. The one time he was questioned about his lies he was able to brush it off as a joke. Corbyn should have gone to town on this subject.

It admirable that Corbyn was more interested in focusing on his own policies but that won’t win this election.


The only outcome I hope for is a minority Tory win (I would prefer labour to win and that’s how I will be voting but it’s clearly not achievable). Hopefully this will provide a weak Tory government and hopefully this will be enough to replace Corbyn. Preferably with someone with less baggage.

Labour need someone more in touch with the labour heartlands. Immigration isn’t an issue to Corbyn. It isn’t an issue for me. I believe in freedom of movement. However I understand that people in the industrial north have a real issue with that.
How have you determined that Johnson won last night? He looked lost and bereft whenever he was asked a difficult question, and answered none. Their fag packet manifesto hasn’t been costed, and just contains sticking plasters to cover over a bit of their austerity damage. How many new hospitals and nurses do you believe they’ll deliver? The Labour manifesto is very transformational and positive. A cogent alternative to austerity. The choice couldn’t be starker.

If Labour do poorly in the election, I’d imagine Corbyn will go, however the next leader will get the same relentless assault from the right wing press. They don’t hate Corbyn, but the ideas and policies he represents. If you want a Labour government that truly works for the people, then we have to accept the opposition of the Sun, Mail and Telegraph. Immigration fits in here as an issue those papers invented. Why else would it be an issue in areas largely unaffected by immigration, and why is it not an issue in places most of the immigrants have come to? I think it would be unwise for Labour to play to a concocted issue (and precisely why the Tories have done so badly with immigration - failing to meet any targets, and going so far to bring numbers down that they’ve had things like the Windrush Scandal blow up in their faces).
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Mala591 » Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:58 am

Let's not forget that this isn't really a general election, it's a second Brexit referendum.

If you (still) want to remain in the EU vote Labour or Lib Dem

If you (still) want to leave the EU vote Conservative

We are all now much better informed about the EU than we were for the first referendum so think carefully and vote carefully in which direction YOU think this country should follow. Is it a question of 'the devil you know' or is it time for a major change in direction?

The choice is yours...
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Firthy » Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:21 am

AndrewJB wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:41 am
The Labour manifesto is very transformational and positive. A cogent alternative to austerity. The choice couldn’t be starker.
Do you honestly believe all that crap. It's completely unrealistic and the figures mentioned are mind blowing and would put our country in billions of pounds more debt even if they managed half the numbers quoted.

Labour are the modern day Robin Hood, tax the rich to give to the poor which does nothing to encourage the scroungers to get a job and earn a living. Their new manifesto is dangerous because it risks losing the mega rich and big companies who pay more in to the coffers than all the rest.

The problem is that none of the parties are fit for purpose and voting has become Hobsons Choice.
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by taio » Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:30 am

AndrewJB wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:41 am
How have you determined that Johnson won last night? He looked lost and bereft whenever he was asked a difficult question, and answered none. Their fag packet manifesto hasn’t been costed, and just contains sticking plasters to cover over a bit of their austerity damage. How many new hospitals and nurses do you believe they’ll deliver? The Labour manifesto is very transformational and positive. A cogent alternative to austerity. The choice couldn’t be starker.

If Labour do poorly in the election, I’d imagine Corbyn will go, however the next leader will get the same relentless assault from the right wing press. They don’t hate Corbyn, but the ideas and policies he represents. If you want a Labour government that truly works for the people, then we have to accept the opposition of the Sun, Mail and Telegraph. Immigration fits in here as an issue those papers invented. Why else would it be an issue in areas largely unaffected by immigration, and why is it not an issue in places most of the immigrants have come to? I think it would be unwise for Labour to play to a concocted issue (and precisely why the Tories have done so badly with immigration - failing to meet any targets, and going so far to bring numbers down that they’ve had things like the Windrush Scandal blow up in their faces).
It was a close call last night. Both did ok. Johnson was slightly ahead in a poll. So not unreasonable to suggest Johnson edged it. You think the Labour manifesto is excellent and sustainable, others think its undeliverable rubbish that will be harmful to the economy.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by FactualFrank » Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:43 am

I don't trust either and think the country will be worse off regardless of which of them wins. Lose-lose situation.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Firthy » Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:19 pm

FactualFrank wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:43 am
I don't trust either and think the country will be worse off regardless of which of them wins. Lose-lose situation.
I blame Brexit :lol: :lol:

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by chorleyhere » Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:51 pm

Equally, If you think the Tory manifesto and deal are excellent and sustainable, others think they are undeliverable rubbish that will be harmful to the economy and if recent Government history is taken into account they can't be trusted with their madcap austerity model as they themselves drop it like a hot potato when they are about to be judged by the electorate.

Johnson's pretending he didn't know who it was that has resigned from the British Embassy in Washington shows yet again that he can't be trusted.

"The British diplomat in charge of explaining Brexit to the US government, Congress and public, has resigned, saying she was no longer prepared to “peddle half-truths on behalf of a government I do not trust”.

Alexandra Hall Hall, the Brexit counsellor at the UK embassy in Washington, had been frustrated with the job for some time, according to friends and colleagues.

They said she felt she was not being given enough reliable information to do her job, which was to explain Britain’s departure from the EU to US audiences and help promote a strong US-UK relationship post-Brexit.

Her resignation, .... was damning in its description of the Johnson government’s integrity.
Daniel Fried, a former US assistant secretary of state for Europe, said: “Ambassador Hall Hall is known to her US colleagues, myself included, as a person of integrity and insight.' Guardian. Friday 6th December 2019
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Inchy » Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:54 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:41 am
How have you determined that Johnson won last night? He looked lost and bereft whenever he was asked a difficult question, and answered none. Their fag packet manifesto hasn’t been costed, and just contains sticking plasters to cover over a bit of their austerity damage. How many new hospitals and nurses do you believe they’ll deliver? The Labour manifesto is very transformational and positive. A cogent alternative to austerity. The choice couldn’t be starker.

If Labour do poorly in the election, I’d imagine Corbyn will go, however the next leader will get the same relentless assault from the right wing press. They don’t hate Corbyn, but the ideas and policies he represents. If you want a Labour government that truly works for the people, then we have to accept the opposition of the Sun, Mail and Telegraph. Immigration fits in here as an issue those papers invented. Why else would it be an issue in areas largely unaffected by immigration, and why is it not an issue in places most of the immigrants have come to? I think it would be unwise for Labour to play to a concocted issue (and precisely why the Tories have done so badly with immigration - failing to meet any targets, and going so far to bring numbers down that they’ve had things like the Windrush Scandal blow up in their faces).
He won by the simply fact that he didn’t totally cock it up and because Corbyn did nothing to really attack him. Corbyn needed last night to be big. It wasn’t. Corbyn might have edged the debate but it needed to be a massive win to make any difference.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndrewJB » Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:52 pm

Firthy wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:21 am
Do you honestly believe all that crap. It's completely unrealistic and the figures mentioned are mind blowing and would put our country in billions of pounds more debt even if they managed half the numbers quoted.

Labour are the modern day Robin Hood, tax the rich to give to the poor which does nothing to encourage the scroungers to get a job and earn a living. Their new manifesto is dangerous because it risks losing the mega rich and big companies who pay more in to the coffers than all the rest.

The problem is that none of the parties are fit for purpose and voting has become Hobsons Choice.
I think Labour’s plans will rejuvenate the economy. The money doesn’t just disappear. It’ll be spent on things that benefit everyone, and create a lot of well paid jobs at the same time. The private sector has failed in providing fast affordable broadband for the whole country, and with Johnson we’ll be spending taxpayer money to improve it, and the private sector operators will reap the profits. We may as well own it. The aspiration of moving to a four day work week is excellent, and will improve peoples lives. Tackling climate change is also important and owning the power utilities is a key element to doing this. There’s nothing from the Tories but a bit less austerity. If you prefer that over a positive and forward looking view, that’s your call, but I think you showed yourself in calling people scroungers.
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AndrewJB
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndrewJB » Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:55 pm

Inchy wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:54 pm
He won by the simply fact that he didn’t totally cock it up and because Corbyn did nothing to really attack him. Corbyn needed last night to be big. It wasn’t. Corbyn might have edged the debate but it needed to be a massive win to make any difference.
Well have to see how it goes, but on the whole I’d say politics is better when people speak with passion about what they want to achieve, rather than attacking the other candidate. We all know how crap Johnson is anyway, so what would be the point in repeating it?

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Bfcboyo » Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:42 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:24 am
What price is a person’s self worth?
Clearly overvalued I see.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Bfcboyo » Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:44 pm

martin_p wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 8:22 am
Like you’ve got a job :lol:
Definately paid more taxes than you and your fella in the last ten years against your last twenty.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndrewJB » Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:08 pm


JohnMcGreal
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by JohnMcGreal » Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:19 am

AndrewJB wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:08 pm
So much for getting Brexit done. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 35976.html
It's patently obvious that Brexit will not 'get done' any time soon. Even if we leave the EU in January, that's just the start. We'll be dealing with the carnage for years and years.

Johnson's 'Get Brexit Done' is just another empty slogan aimed at the same fools who swallowed his empty slogans in 2016.

You'd really hope that a good number of people would see right through his bullshit at this point, but I'm not getting my hopes up.
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Steve-Harpers-perm » Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:25 am

I thought his deal was oven ready? You can’t be saying Boris Johnson is lying can you?
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Damo » Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:33 am

Brexit is a big issue for me.
Not as big an issue as a potential Corbyn led government though.
I'd go as far as to say I'd rather remain if Labour were to win this election. But I would literally vote for anyone other than labour at the moment.

Corbyn is a problem that no "Leaked documents" by Russian's can do anything to alleviate
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Damo » Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:35 am

martin_p wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 8:22 am
Like you’ve got a job :lol:
I think the fact he isn't a labour supporter is enough evidence to suggest that he works for a living

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by evensteadiereddie » Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:45 am

A weird thing to say but hey ho...

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndrewJB » Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:28 am

We’re now in real danger of getting a Johnson majority government that polls show there isn’t a majority of support for. This will be the most right wing government we’ve ever had, and likely take us out of the EU on WTO terms. With a majority there’s nothing to stop Johnson renaming on his promises. A free trade deal with the US will come with compromises. If Johnson does protect the NHS, he won’t be able to tax the internet giants such as Amazon and Google (which the US opposes), and that cuts off the extra money for paying for his promises. No more cash for the NHS or police. No tax cuts, unless he increases borrowing. Just more austerity. A Tory majority will be a disaster for the country and the northwest. Time to vote tactically to keep them out.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndrewJB » Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:41 am

Steve-Harpers-perm wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:25 am
I thought his deal was oven ready? You can’t be saying Boris Johnson is lying can you?
I’ve never seen a more blatant liar during an election. And with such a poor manifesto I can’t say I understand the attraction some people have. I suppose it underlines the power of the billionaire-owned press.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:43 am

A Johnson majority government would have significant inward migration, high levels of gay rights, women’s rights etc. It would economically throw a lot of money into public services (by Tory standards).

But according to AndrewJB it will be the most right wing government ever.

The left are getting shriller and shriller. The choice is either a Johnson majority or a Corbyn government propped up by the SNP with huge levels of debt, tax and spend, and probably huge rises in interest rates, inflation and a crash in the housing market. That’s the choice. Luckily, it is one that most of us can see clearly.
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Darthlaw » Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:45 am

AndrewJB wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:41 am
I’ve never seen a more blatant liar during an election. And with such a poor manifesto I can’t say I understand the attraction some people have. I suppose it underlines the power of the billionaire-owned press.
It underlines the poor quality of the opposition.

This election is merely liars vs dreamers, worse still proven liars vs proven dreamers. Question is do you want the guys who won’t spend or the ones who can’t because “there’s no money left”.

I’ve voted for all three major parties in my lifetime, the fact that I’m choosing the least worst option this time round is truly depressing.
Last edited by Darthlaw on Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Steve-Harpers-perm » Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:45 am

CrosspoolClarets wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:43 am
A Johnson majority government would have significant inward migration, high levels of gay rights, women’s rights etc. It would economically throw a lot of money into public services (by Tory standards).

But according to AndrewJB it will be the most right wing government ever.

The left are getting shriller and shriller. The choice is either a Johnson majority or a Corbyn government propped up by the SNP with huge levels of debt, tax and spend, and probably huge rises in interest rates, inflation and a crash in the housing market. That’s the choice. Luckily, it is one that most of us can see clearly.
If that’s what Boris says he’ll do then it will definitely happen.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by jrgbfc » Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:47 am

CrosspoolClarets wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:43 am
A Johnson majority government would have significant inward migration, high levels of gay rights, women’s rights etc. It would economically throw a lot of money into public services (by Tory standards).

But according to AndrewJB it will be the most right wing government ever.

The left are getting shriller and shriller. The choice is either a Johnson majority or a Corbyn government propped up by the SNP with huge levels of debt, tax and spend, and probably huge rises in interest rates, inflation and a crash in the housing market. That’s the choice. Luckily, it is one that most of us can see clearly.
And when Brexit turns out to be a complete disaster the Tories have got the perfect excuse to go back on all their promises.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Dy1geo » Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:08 am

Andrew, Labour’s biggest Achilles heel is how it’s runs the economy and quite frankly the country isn’t ready for Modern Monetary Theory economics due to the dangers it comes with. Yes there are economists who will promote it but even Keynesian economists are against it.

Corbyn’s argument is he will eventually get people to come round to his way of thinking but it is looking likely that they aren’t and with 5 days to go a Tory majority is looking likely, so my question to people like him would they compromise after the election to a more centrist Labour leader.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by CombatClaret » Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:14 am

Good bit in the Times
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ELP2t9fWkAAOpOH.png (19.34 KiB) Viewed 2144 times
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by claretandy » Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:18 am

Damo wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:33 am
Brexit is a big issue for me.
Not as big an issue as a potential Corbyn led government though.
I'd go as far as to say I'd rather remain if Labour were to win this election. But I would literally vote for anyone other than labour at the moment.

Corbyn is a problem that no "Leaked documents" by Russian's can do anything to alleviate
Same here, if it were a choice between leaving with a Corbyn government, or remaining, i would remain, they are that dangerous.
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:21 am

Brexit is a sideshow. Brexit is getting some of these northern folk to vote Tory but the big issue (as John Curtice said on Marr today) is that Labour are no longer the party of the working class. They are the party of the liberal young city dweller. The working class have no love of the Tories but they have showed the Tories a bit of leg, and we’ll see on Thursday what happens.

This feels to me to be the tipping point for the north for the first time in my lifetime. Blair’s labour failed to address decline (in fact, it accelerated it by sending kids off to get what is in many instances pointless social science degrees). The Tories have neglected it too. A bigger public sector to get northern people into work doesn’t regenerate anything, it just perpetuates the decline.

Now we may see what free market economics can do for the north. E.g. free ports in Hull could in time cause a vibrant industrial hub that spreads out for miles around. Look at all the mammoth Amazon and other distribution centres around road hubs like Daventry and airports like Robin Hood. The ports could be similar hubs with new road and rail networks springing off them. Yes, Johnson may let us down, but we have a chance to become the long term swing voter who gets bribed in every election - we have to take it.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndrewJB » Sun Dec 08, 2019 12:16 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:43 am
A Johnson majority government would have significant inward migration, high levels of gay rights, women’s rights etc. It would economically throw a lot of money into public services (by Tory standards).

But according to AndrewJB it will be the most right wing government ever.

The left are getting shriller and shriller. The choice is either a Johnson majority or a Corbyn government propped up by the SNP with huge levels of debt, tax and spend, and probably huge rises in interest rates, inflation and a crash in the housing market. That’s the choice. Luckily, it is one that most of us can see clearly.
Look at the facts. He's kicked everyone with a shred of common decency out of the party, so what is he left with? Clark, Grieve, Churchill's own grandson - all gone. Look at his cabinet. Apart from the fact they're all a bit thick, they're also rabid, foaming at the mouth right wingers. Look at the book "Britannia Unchained" that four of them wrote a few years back. They advocate ending paid holidays, maternity leave, and giving employers the right to hire and fire at will. It's completely unhinged, and three of them are now senior ministers. We have a Chancellor who, ten years ago, sold the very derivatives that brought about the banking crisis. Where do you get the idea they'll throw a lot of money into public services? It doesn't say that anywhere in the manifesto. The two standout things are more police, and the heavily questioned claims about more hospitals and nurses. Otherwise it's austerity as usual. You've talked about your high hopes for what Johnson will do for the northwest. Okay, take me to the pages in the manifesto where he sets these things out.

I understand your fears around a Corybn government. It's a lot like a person coming out of an abusive relationship and questioning the motives of a new partner when they suggest doing something nice. You've had ten years of a government and their propaganda newspapers telling you that Britain is on the ropes, and we can't afford to have a society that looks after each other anymore. You have to look beyond the bullshit, and consider the facts. Why, with all the cuts that have taken place, and all the things sold off, has the government had to borrow so much money our debt has doubled? The cuts have all been about reducing tax for the wealthiest, and austerity makes no financial sense. The small sums saved from cutting social programs such as Surestart or recreation clubs for youth, have been dwarfed by costs in other areas to deal with the issues arising from cutting Surestart and recreation clubs for youth. Labour is talking about reversing this stupidity and getting the country on the right track.

Time for a change.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by If it be your will » Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:16 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:28 am
We’re now in real danger of getting a Johnson majority government that polls show there isn’t a majority of support for. This will be the most right wing government we’ve ever had, and likely take us out of the EU on WTO terms. With a majority there’s nothing to stop Johnson renaming on his promises. A free trade deal with the US will come with compromises. If Johnson does protect the NHS, he won’t be able to tax the internet giants such as Amazon and Google (which the US opposes), and that cuts off the extra money for paying for his promises. No more cash for the NHS or police. No tax cuts, unless he increases borrowing. Just more austerity. A Tory majority will be a disaster for the country and the northwest. Time to vote tactically to keep them out.
You're screaming at the wind. Saying things like "take is out of the EU on WTO terms" might make highly educated, mobile, comfortable, metropolitan London voters shiver at the thought. Up here the general reaction is "Good! At ******* last!".

I think the working class was right to vote leave (if often for the wrong reasons), but wrong to vote Tory to take care of it. But when Labour abandoned it, there was no choice: if you want to leave you have to vote Tory. And they will. That's the reaction you get when you ask everyone what they want then ignore the verdict.

Leave was decided in 2016. 2019 should be about who takes care of it, but it isn't. It isn't because so many in the Labour fold just couldn't bring themselves to accept that 2016 actually happened.
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Re: General Election Is On

Post by taio » Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:24 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 12:16 pm
Look at the facts. He's kicked everyone with a shred of common decency out of the party, so what is he left with? Clark, Grieve, Churchill's own grandson - all gone. Look at his cabinet. Apart from the fact they're all a bit thick, they're also rabid, foaming at the mouth right wingers. Look at the book "Britannia Unchained" that four of them wrote a few years back. They advocate ending paid holidays, maternity leave, and giving employers the right to hire and fire at will. It's completely unhinged, and three of them are now senior ministers. We have a Chancellor who, ten years ago, sold the very derivatives that brought about the banking crisis. Where do you get the idea they'll throw a lot of money into public services? It doesn't say that anywhere in the manifesto. The two standout things are more police, and the heavily questioned claims about more hospitals and nurses. Otherwise it's austerity as usual. You've talked about your high hopes for what Johnson will do for the northwest. Okay, take me to the pages in the manifesto where he sets these things out.

I understand your fears around a Corybn government. It's a lot like a person coming out of an abusive relationship and questioning the motives of a new partner when they suggest doing something nice. You've had ten years of a government and their propaganda newspapers telling you that Britain is on the ropes, and we can't afford to have a society that looks after each other anymore. You have to look beyond the bullshit, and consider the facts. Why, with all the cuts that have taken place, and all the things sold off, has the government had to borrow so much money our debt has doubled? The cuts have all been about reducing tax for the wealthiest, and austerity makes no financial sense. The small sums saved from cutting social programs such as Surestart or recreation clubs for youth, have been dwarfed by costs in other areas to deal with the issues arising from cutting Surestart and recreation clubs for youth. Labour is talking about reversing this stupidity and getting the country on the right track.

Time for a change.
Have you read Britannia Unchained? I read it a few years ago and don't recall it saying maternity should be abolished. But I could easily have overlooked. What did they say on maternity pay and also holiday pay?

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Spiral » Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:03 pm

Has anyone seen the story in the times about Amazon being given complete free access the NHS database? Don't worry, your medical records aren't in Amazon's hands (yet!) but the sheer amount of data being handed over for nothing is a bloody outrage. Data is a commodity as valuable as any other and the Tories seem to have handed over a state commodity - a database funded by taxpayers - to Amazon (whose tax arrangements in the UK are a complete pi$$ take). If you need evidence of the direction the Tories are taking the country and the NHS look no further than this. It's not an exaggeration to say we're being plundered by foreign corporations. This is a taste of things to come.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by taio » Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:19 pm

Spiral wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:03 pm
Has anyone seen the story in the times about Amazon being given complete free access the NHS database? Don't worry, your medical records aren't in Amazon's hands (yet!) but the sheer amount of data being handed over for nothing is a bloody outrage. Data is a commodity as valuable as any other and the Tories seem to have handed over a state commodity - a database funded by taxpayers - to Amazon (whose tax arrangements in the UK are a complete pi$$ take). If you need evidence of the direction the Tories are taking the country and the NHS look no further than this. It's not an exaggeration to say we're being plundered by foreign corporations. This is a taste of things to come.
I was at a conference a few months ago where there was a presentation on this by NHS Digital. It is to make better use of intelligence, to promote digital health and to enable people to self-care where appropriate. Digital technology, artifical intelligence and robotics will understandably play a much greater role in health and care over the next decade and its a key aim of the NHS long term plan.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:27 pm

You need to open your eyes a little taio and stop seeing just what you want to see.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by taio » Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:30 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:27 pm
You need to open your eyes a little taio and stop seeing just what you want to see.
I know it to be true through work. What do you disagree with?

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:35 pm

Not saying what you have been told isnt the case but it goes way beyond that. Plenty of info out there about whats happening and why just needs an open mind

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by taio » Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:36 pm

Fair enough. What do you think is happening?

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Spiral » Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:40 pm

The idea of contracting to the private sector to alleviate stress on the NHS is reasonable enough in principle, though the efficiencies and quality of provision and service that comes about is for another debate, but this looks to be much more than Amazon being granted access to the database of NHS direct. The justification, the pretext for this giveaway appears to revolve around, it is supposed, older folks being able to ask alexa how to cure a sore throat or some such b0llocks, but the database appears to contain so much more and would have cost a pretty penny to build in the first place. One article I read about this referred to "mission creep" and I can't help but agree. There's a clear willingness on the part of the Tories to pawn off any commodity owned by you and me and every other taxpayer but I must admit, an outright giveaway is a new one to me. We usually get a bit of money in return when we hand over public assets to private investors. Amazon want access to the data because it has marketable value, otherwise they wouldn't be interested in it. Why should oligopolies, and in this case the richest man on Earth (literally, in the case of Jeff Bezos, or he was until recently) reap the commercial benefits of a public built database without paying a damn penny? It's pretty damn clear whom the Tories are serving. Like I said, a taste of things to come, I think.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:46 pm

I think our personal data estimated to be worth billions is being sold off on the cheap by the Tories to their US friends to get a favourable trade deal.

In effect we are being traded by our own govt for the benefit of themselves and the US Pharma companies.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by taio » Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:53 pm

But this isn't about personal data. If it was I'd be equally concerned. And I'd be left wondering how they would be able to do that lawfully under GDPR in particular. The NHS is rightly very careful about how they use personal information to the extent that it is even forbidden for NHS clinical commissioning groups to hold patient identifiable information.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by tiger76 » Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:56 pm

There is an old adage follow the money,well this look at party funding is illuminating.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50686045

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:57 pm


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Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndrewJB » Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:00 pm

taio wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:36 pm
Fair enough. What do you think is happening?
Amazon can make a lot of money from this data - selling it off to pharmaceutical companies for research purposes, insurance companies, universities, and varying parts of the US health industry. Like most Tory privatisations, the majority of the profit will go to a foreign company, but no doubt they’ll get some donations in.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Paul Waine » Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:01 pm

Firthy wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:21 am
The problem is that none of the parties are fit for purpose and voting has become Hobsons Choice.
Hi Firthy, a bit back, I saw an explanation of where the expression "hobson's choice" comes from: a stable owner called Hobson would pick the horse he would rent you - rather than the renter being allowed to check out whether the horse was already lame, or otherwise not good to ride. (I think it was renting rather than buying, but that probably doesn't matter).

So, who is "Hobson" for our GE on Thursday?

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by taio » Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:05 pm

Don't see a problem with sharing anonymised data for research and development purposes to improve health so long as it is shared safely.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:12 pm

Thats the worry though. Read plenty of views of data scientist opinions who point out that "anomymised" data can nearly always be re-identified.

When you add this to to the lack of transparency and clarity in what has been sold, to who and what for and the way our Govt has been continually lying to us then you either have to be very naive or just unwilling to see that this is not as simple and innocent as they wish to make out

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by taio » Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:21 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:12 pm
Thats the worry though. Read plenty of views of data scientist opinions who point out that "anomymised" data can nearly always be re-identified.

When you add this to to the lack of transparency and clarity in what has been sold, to who and what for and the way our Govt has been continually lying to us then you either have to be very naive or just unwilling to see that this is not as simple and innocent as they wish to make out
I understand the risks so I am not very naive. And to be fair the conversation has changed from sharing non-personal data with Amazon to anonymised personal data to wider health care markets. I get the concerns about sharing patient information because of course there is a risk of data breaches through incompetence. But if anonymisation follows the law the process makes it impossible for a third party to identify the patients.

"Anonymisation destroys any way of identifying the data subject. It is irreversible."

Recital 26 of the GDPR defines anonymised data as “data rendered anonymous in such a way that the data subject is not or no longer identifiable.”

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:45 pm

taio wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:21 pm
I understand the risks so I am not very naive. And to be fair the conversation has changed from sharing non-personal data with Amazon to anonymised personal data to wider health care markets. I get the concerns about sharing patient information because of course there is a risk of data breaches through incompetence. But if anonymisation follows the law the process makes it impossible for a third party to identify the patients.
I wasn't implying you to be naive as you obviously arent and are obviously an intelligent person. Its more I think people on all sides are closed off to information that goes against their tribal instincts.

Again its ok to say follow the law process but we've seen time and time again companies like google and amazon, massive companies like the Pharma ones who have big political influence and the US and UK govts themselves all see themselves above the law and have the power to do what they want.

I think we've gone about full circle with this and fair enough if we see things differently but the direction this govt is taking us with regards to the US and the levels of sacrifice we will likely go to imo just seems so obviously worrying its untrue.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by taio » Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:56 pm

I can understand your concerns. It's clear the data controller i.e. NHS is under legal obligation to processs and share information lawfully not the third party. If data is anonymised correctly then it would be impossible for a third party to identify the patients. To the extent that anonymised data is not classifiied as personal data in law. Of course there is a risk in sharing such information if the anonymisation process is not followed correctly. But those risks have to be balanced against the obvious benefits of sharing rich intelligence to researchers, universities and the pharmaceutical sector. The NHS has rigorous safeguards in place. If you want a sense of this Google something like 'Dars application NHS Digital'.

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Re: General Election Is On

Post by Spiral » Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:37 pm

I suppose the worry for me isn't so much the data access in and of itself, but the deal that has been struck in the context of the wider story. That is, there's compelling argument to be made about the growing trend in the marketisation of healthcare. Whatever the justification, it's somewhat galling to see a taxpayer built commodity being licenced to a private firm, seemingly exclusively although I can't say for sure on that front, with no reuse commission or licence fee benefitting our country. There's a point made in the article DA linked a few posts up about the US demand to end data localisation, which is...concerning. Notable is the fact that Amazon has invested heavily in cloud storage (Amazon web services) in recent years. It's not inconceivable to see a UK-US trade deal stuck that sees AWS storing NHS patient data. This specific Amazon story we're talking about today doesn't relate to individual patient data, of course, but it's not difficult to envision how Amazon might utilise the database it has been given for free to better collect metadata on its customers, specifically their echo device users, and aggressively microtarget those customers, especially in a more marketized healthcare landscape. (People are kidding themselves if they believe this is anything other than the direction the Tories are taking us. Don't let whatever views you have on Brexit cloud this fact). There's the other massive elephant in the room in this not-all-too-inconceivable scenario, that is, Amazon becoming too big to fail, the untold consequences of failure, and the ridiculous power it gives the company and its CEO particularly in a time of stress or crisis. So that's why this story alarmed me. It points towards a bigger, bleaker picture where foreign companies have too much power over anyone reading this post. It's not so much that the Tories don't stand up for us, for the country, against this direction of travel; they are the ones actively pursuing this ideology. They don't represent the British, they represent money, regardless of its source. I think they're downright unpatriotic.

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