General Election Is On

This Forum is the main messageboard to discuss all things Claret and Blue and beyond
Locked
martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by martin_p » Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:33 pm

Darthlaw wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:30 pm
"I'm sorry there's no money left" - Last outgoing Labour Government, just before they began screaming blue murder at the cuts needed to balance the books.

Hopefully Corbyn doesn't get the credit card again.
If he does he’ll find it even more ‘maxed out’ than David Cameron claimed it was, the Tories have continued to hit it hard even while spending less. That may not have been necessary had they made the investment to grow the economy at a decent rate.

Devils_Advocate
Posts: 12345
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:43 pm
Been Liked: 5202 times
Has Liked: 920 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Devils_Advocate » Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:37 pm

Darthlaw wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:30 pm
"I'm sorry there's no money left" - Last outgoing Labour Government, just before they began screaming blue murder at the cuts needed to balance the books.

Hopefully Corbyn doesn't get the credit card again.
I dont see the point of posting this kind of rubbish when if inclined you could try and discuss and argue the issue intelligently.

Do you really not understand the context and history behind the Labour chancellors message or are you just trying to deliberately misrepresent it?

Either way its not a good look for you
This user liked this post: Greenmile

Darthlaw
Posts: 3060
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:08 pm
Been Liked: 1177 times
Has Liked: 414 times
Location: Death Star, Dark Side Row S Seat 666

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Darthlaw » Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:40 pm

Complete denial of the fiscal **** show Labour left last time isn't a great look for you either. In fact, scratch that, it's par for the course for your average uber Labour supporter, only concerned with passing the debt onto the next generation.

aggi
Posts: 8762
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:31 am
Been Liked: 2109 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by aggi » Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:41 pm

dsr wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:55 pm
I'm by no means convinced there is a terrible underfunding of education, at least. How many full time teachers or classroom assistants do they have now? The number is going up and up. A junior school with 8 classes of 30 would have been run by 9 full time educators, 40 years ago. Now it would be a surprise to have less than 16. How many teachers and classroom assistants is the "right" number - can that "right" number ever be reached?
40 years ago the kids with learning difficulties would have been ignored or, more likely, not in mainstream schooling. Also class sizes have increased, there is far more safeguarding work to be done, etc.

I don't know what the right number is but I would say that one person trying to teach a class of 30 pupils of wildly differing abilities and behaviour isn't enough.

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by martin_p » Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:44 pm

Darthlaw wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:40 pm
Complete denial of the fiscal **** show Labour left last time isn't a great look for you either. In fact, scratch that, it's par for the course for your average uber Labour supporter, only concerned with passing the debt onto the next generation.
Government debt has been ‘passed on to the next generation’ pretty much since government has existed! We’ve only just paid off our war debts.

Devils_Advocate
Posts: 12345
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:43 pm
Been Liked: 5202 times
Has Liked: 920 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Devils_Advocate » Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:44 pm

Darthlaw wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:40 pm
Complete denial of the fiscal **** show Labour left last time isn't a great look for you either. In fact, scratch that, it's par for the course for your average uber Labour supporter, only concerned with passing the debt onto the next generation.
I haven't defended or debated it so its not my look to be concerned about. Im more interested in honest and factual debate so again do you understand the context and history around the quote you posted?

dsr
Posts: 15138
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 4549 times
Has Liked: 2241 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by dsr » Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:44 pm

Erasmus wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:12 pm
Dsr, my youngest son's school now closes on Friday afternoons to save money. An elder son is at secondary school and I was told I should buy text books and revision materials for him because the school couldn't afford it.

Education is suffering due to the cuts in funding, but the main objection I have to Conservative government is the manner in which they have driven so many people into poverty and destitution. And then when one of them said, 'There are many reasons why people use food banks' it was just sickening the way he tried to pretend it wasn't an issue. The reality is that 94% of those who use food banks do so because of 'destitution.' It's not acceptable.
How much of that is a matter of spending choices, and how much is necessity? Have they got just 1 member of staff in each classroom for nine-tenths of the week, and can't cover the other tenth? Or do they have teaching assistants, meaning they have made the choice of having two members of staff in the classroom for much of the week but don't have the budget for the rest?

Primary schools now get more than double the amount per child than schools did in 1990. What are they spending it on? Schools in 1990 opened 5 days a week. What are schools spending the money on now, that wasn't deemed necessary in 1990? Could they change their priorities?

https://www.ifs.org.uk/uploads/publicat ... s/R126.pdf

CrosspoolClarets
Posts: 5229
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:00 pm
Been Liked: 1623 times
Has Liked: 397 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:45 pm

Erasmus wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:44 am
Crosspools, I can to some extent understand your misgivings about Labour's spending plans to be funded by taxation. But what then would be the solution you propose from the Conservative side to the chronic problems in education, healthcare, poverty and destitution, lack of social care for the elderly and many other issues.

It must be apparent that there are dreadful problems in all areas of public services. Labour proposes to address these problems through increased taxation. What is the Conservative plan to deal with these problems? Six weeks wait for Universal Credit is absolutely awful and undoubtedly leads to poverty, destitution and dependence on food banks. Are the Conservatives going to change? If not, why vote for them?
Hi. The only point I have made today is about Labour’s 40 tax rise to low earning business owners because I view a 40% tax rise on (say) a carpenter to be a scandal, but you are right, I am concerned overall about tax and spend.

I hold the view that the ordinary person in society will be far worse off under Corbyn (I choose not to narrow this to just the extreme destitute although they should be addressed too). That is due to interest rates, inflation and unemployment which will all be rampant. Possibly like never seen before, this is unprecedented stuff they are proposing.

Johnson is moving left on economics so we can hope things will be different - I didn’t agree with austerity in the way it was done and I wouldn’t vote for a repeat of that.

CrosspoolClarets
Posts: 5229
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:00 pm
Been Liked: 1623 times
Has Liked: 397 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:49 pm

martin_p wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:57 am
This is how bad things have become in this country. Any media not exhibiting the right wing bias of 90% of our press is seen as being left wing when it is in fact neutral. Ok, I get that when you’re stood so far on the right that pretty much everything else is to the left of you, but that doesn’t make them left wing or equate to left wing bias.
Seriously Martin, if you don't believe Channel 4 News is leftwing then you need to leave this discussion to the adults. Some media has a right wing bias (mainly the newspapers) and some a left wing bias, such as the two I mention. I don’t support Boris punishing them but they have clearly led him down that road.

Darthlaw
Posts: 3060
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:08 pm
Been Liked: 1177 times
Has Liked: 414 times
Location: Death Star, Dark Side Row S Seat 666

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Darthlaw » Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:50 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:44 pm
I haven't defended or debated it so its not my look to be concerned about. Im more interested in honest and factual debate so again do you understand the context and history around the quote you posted?
I fully understand the tradition of leaving a jokey note for the incoming Treasury minister. The fact that, given the deficit Labour left, it seemed more of a Freudian slip may be lost upon you.

CrosspoolClarets
Posts: 5229
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:00 pm
Been Liked: 1623 times
Has Liked: 397 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:57 pm

aggi wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:25 am
You've gone on full-on Lowbank here. I'll ask you the same question I've asked other hyperbolic loons (maybe I'll finally get an answer this time), what evidence is there that Corbyn hates the UK? Specific examples?
You are in danger of being as blinkered as Martin here, this election is doing strange things to people.

He doesn’t hate the ordinary people in the UK, but he clearly hates many of the things which make us a top nation. He defends the oppressed, and believes western capitalism is a form of oppressor. He would prefer us to have no military. He would reject our presence in the Five Eyes security framework. Even his own Shadow Health Secretary (a good man) thinks he is a danger to national security. Evidence of all this comes from all the accumulated interviews and videos of Corbyn over the years.

You make a judgement like this from your gut. My gut tells me he is dangerous to our whole way of life. That’s my choice, if you have a different choice, crack on, but we all can’t complain about the consequences later.

p.s. you also quoted my comment on the Leeds thing. Some of those tweets were hoaxes but the information I heard was what has now been released in a statement (which Inchy posted above) which is that chairs were available to him while he waited, but no bed.
Last edited by CrosspoolClarets on Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

RMutt
Posts: 1066
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:08 pm
Been Liked: 373 times
Has Liked: 88 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by RMutt » Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:01 pm

Darthlaw wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:50 pm
I fully understand the tradition of leaving a jokey note for the incoming Treasury minister. The fact that, given the deficit Labour left, it seemed more of a Freudian slip may be lost upon you.
https://inews.co.uk/news/sajid-javid-la ... eck-919558

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by martin_p » Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:01 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:49 pm
Seriously Martin, if you don't believe Channel 4 News is leftwing then you need to leave this discussion to the adults. Some media has a right wing bias (mainly the newspapers) and some a left wing bias, such as the two I mention. I don’t support Boris punishing them but they have clearly led him down that road.
You’ll find plenty of Channel 4 news items reporting criticism of Labour and Corbyn and their ‘fact checks’ questioning things Labour have claimed. But you’re only attuned to Tory criticism.

tiger76
Posts: 25697
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:43 pm
Been Liked: 4644 times
Has Liked: 9849 times
Location: Glasgow

Re: General Election Is On

Post by tiger76 » Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:20 pm

dsr wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:02 pm
Brexiters aren't extremists. Brexit is mainstream. It had majority support at the referendum.

I know that many people like to believe that living in a European super-state is the only rational way to exist - it isn't true. An independent UK is a perfectly reasonable idea. Obviously not one you agree with, but nonetheless, reasonable.

If you think Brexiters are extremists, then please don't let the Scottish Nationalists into a power sharing agreement!!! :o
I was referring to the no deal advocates,i know brexit had majority support in the referendum,i was one of the 17.4m,however we have to find a viable way of exiting without crashing the economy,that's why despite some reservations i'd back Johnson's WA deal,at least this phase will be complete and the UK can then move onto trade negotations at long last.

As for the Scottish Nationalists,living North of the border i'm well aware of their independence obsession,which is one of the reasons i've switched to the tories,as they've ruled out indy ref 2 for the foreseeable future.Labour can't be trusted on brexit or defending the union,hence why they'll suffer at the ballot box on Thursday.

Erasmus
Posts: 761
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 1:46 pm
Been Liked: 574 times
Has Liked: 44 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Erasmus » Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:26 pm

Crosspool, I'm sorry but 'Johnson may be moving to the left' is not an answer to the question I posed, which was what are the Conservatives going to do about these problems if they get in? From what you have said, it seems like the answer will be nothing, and all the problems faced by the poorest and most disadvantaged people will continue to fester.

My impression of Johnson is that he is a weak individual who is currently under the control of Dominic Cummings, a rather disreputable individual. If he wins the election, look at who he will have around him, the likes of Rees-Mogg and other right-wingers. I can't see how a Conservative victory will be anything but a disaster for those most in need of help. Can you?

aggi
Posts: 8762
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:31 am
Been Liked: 2109 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by aggi » Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:33 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:57 pm
You are in danger of being as blinkered as Martin here, this election is doing strange things to people.

He doesn’t hate the ordinary people in the UK, but he clearly hates many of the things which make us a top nation. He defends the oppressed, and believes western capitalism is a form of oppressor. He would prefer us to have no military. He would reject our presence in the Five Eyes security framework. Even his own Shadow Health Secretary (a good man) thinks he is a danger to national security. Evidence of all this comes from all the accumulated interviews and videos of Corbyn over the years.

You make a judgement like this from your gut. My gut tells me he is dangerous to our whole way of life. That’s my choice, if you have a different choice, crack on, but we all can’t complain about the consequences later.

p.s. you also quoted my comment on the Leeds thing. Some of those tweets were hoaxes but the information I heard was what has now been released in a statement (which Inchy posted above) which is that chairs were available to him while he waited, but no bed.
Personally I don't rate Corbyn and wouldn't vote for him. I've issues with his manifesto, I don't think he's politically savvy enough to lead the nation, I'm not convinced that he is strong enough to run the country. There are plenty of things to criticise him for so why make stuff up like he hates the UK?

Again, I'll ask for evidence for things such as:
He would prefer us to have no military.
He would reject our presence in the Five Eyes security framework.
Even his own Shadow Health Secretary (a good man) thinks he is a danger to national security.
(I've read today's transcript and he doesn't say that so I assume it's from elsewhere.)

It's also a bit weird that most of the things that you think make us a top nation are linked to our military but each to their own. Personally, I'd have documented things like Corbyn's involvement in the Battle of Wood Green and fighting fascists above gut feelings that he wants to get rid of the military.

As I said, it's easy to be critical of someone without having to resort to just making stuff up. It's just a bit pathetic and weakens whatever else you're saying.

As for the hospital, that seems to match up to what's been reported rather than the fake twitter stuff. There weren't any beds and I imagine if you're a four year-old being treated for pneumonia you may want a bit of a lie down.
This user liked this post: Greenmile

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by martin_p » Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:00 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:57 pm
You are in danger of being as blinkered as Martin here, this election is doing strange things to people.

He doesn’t hate the ordinary people in the UK, but he clearly hates many of the things which make us a top nation. He defends the oppressed, and believes western capitalism is a form of oppressor. He would prefer us to have no military. He would reject our presence in the Five Eyes security framework. Even his own Shadow Health Secretary (a good man) thinks he is a danger to national security. Evidence of all this comes from all the accumulated interviews and videos of Corbyn over the years.

You make a judgement like this from your gut. My gut tells me he is dangerous to our whole way of life. That’s my choice, if you have a different choice, crack on, but we all can’t complain about the consequences later.

p.s. you also quoted my comment on the Leeds thing. Some of those tweets were hoaxes but the information I heard was what has now been released in a statement (which Inchy posted above) which is that chairs were available to him while he waited, but no bed.
You really shouldn’t be making such a judgement from your gut you should be looking for some evidence to make a judgement. There’s nothing out there to suggest that Corbyn hates this country or that he’s dangerous to our way of life. You’ve bought the media scaremongering hook, line and sinker.

claretandy
Posts: 4751
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 953 times
Has Liked: 238 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by claretandy » Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:02 pm

They phoned an Ambulance for Tonsillitis ?

" diagnosed with Influenza A and Tonsillitis by doctors."

https://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/ ... ds-1334909

aggi
Posts: 8762
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:31 am
Been Liked: 2109 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by aggi » Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:05 pm

claretandy wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:02 pm
They phoned an Ambulance for Tonsillitis ?

" diagnosed with Influenza A and Tonsillitis by doctors."

https://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/ ... ds-1334909
"We went in an ambulance from our GP as the doctor suspected he was suffering from pneumonia.

Desperately trying to spin this one isn't a good look.

claretandy
Posts: 4751
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 953 times
Has Liked: 238 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by claretandy » Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:08 pm

aggi wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:05 pm
"We went in an ambulance from our GP as the doctor suspected he was suffering from pneumonia.

Desperately trying to spin this one isn't a good look.
And they we're given a bed, then the Doctors decided to give it to a more serious case, they were given chairs to sit on, but chose to lie him on the floor instead.

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by martin_p » Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:10 pm

claretandy wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:08 pm
And they we're given a bed, then the Doctors decided to give it to a more serious case, they were given chairs to sit on, but chose to lie him on the floor instead.
Have you ever had a sick child Andy?

dsr
Posts: 15138
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 4549 times
Has Liked: 2241 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by dsr » Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:14 pm

claretandy wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:02 pm
They phoned an Ambulance for Tonsillitis ?

" diagnosed with Influenza A and Tonsillitis by doctors."

https://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/ ... ds-1334909
Even the medical professionals thought it might be serious; enough so that they stuck a drip into him, anyway. Can't blame parents for worrying.

claretandy
Posts: 4751
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 953 times
Has Liked: 238 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by claretandy » Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:18 pm

martin_p wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:10 pm
Have you ever had a sick child Andy?
Yes, both my boys have spent time in hospital, i didn't ring for an ambulance, i took them myself to urgent care, if the doctors decided a more needy case required a bed then so be it, i thought you liked experts ?

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by martin_p » Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:29 pm

claretandy wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:18 pm
Yes, both my boys have spent time in hospital, i didn't ring for an ambulance, i took them myself to urgent care, if the doctors decided a more needy case required a bed then so be it, i thought you liked experts ?
And they didn’t ring for an ambulance, their GP did (wrong sort of expert?).

If there was a more needy case then yes that case should have got a bed. But when patients are routinely being left in corridors or on trolleys you don’t have to be an expert to work out they need more beds.

claretandy
Posts: 4751
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 953 times
Has Liked: 238 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by claretandy » Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:31 pm

martin_p wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:29 pm
And they didn’t ring for an ambulance, their GP did (wrong sort of expert?).

If there was a more needy case then yes that case should have got a bed. But when patients are routinely being left in corridors or on trolleys you don’t have to be an expert to work out they need more beds.
GP's aren't "experts" the clue is in the name, General Practitioner, a paediatrician is an expert.

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by martin_p » Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:33 pm

claretandy wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:31 pm
GP's aren't "experts" the clue is in the name, General Practitioner, a paediatrician is an expert.
So what are you saying, they should have bypassed their GP and gone straight to A&E? Do you not visit GPs?

Oh, and the doctor that decided the other case was more serious, was he/she a specialist?
Last edited by martin_p on Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Swizzlestick
Posts: 3978
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2016 9:40 pm
Been Liked: 1503 times
Has Liked: 578 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Swizzlestick » Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:35 pm

claretandy wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:31 pm
GP's aren't "experts" the clue is in the name, General Practitioner, a paediatrician is an expert.
Oh my god, stop posting.

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by martin_p » Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:45 pm

Swizzlestick wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:35 pm
Oh my god, stop posting.
No don’t! You’re doing great!

ClaretAndJew
Posts: 8020
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:08 am
Been Liked: 2814 times
Has Liked: 503 times
Location: Earth

Re: General Election Is On

Post by ClaretAndJew » Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:45 pm

A GP not an expert? Hahaha.

Hahahaha.

Haha hahaha.

Close this board down now.
This user liked this post: Greenmile

claretandy
Posts: 4751
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 953 times
Has Liked: 238 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by claretandy » Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:01 pm

martin_p wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:33 pm
So what are you saying, they should have bypassed their GP and gone straight to A&E? Do you not visit GPs?

Oh, and the doctor that decided the other case was more serious, was he/she a specialist?
The GP miss-diagnosed, i would have gone straight to urgent care.

Greenmile
Posts: 3164
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:50 pm
Been Liked: 1081 times
Has Liked: 4241 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Greenmile » Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:02 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:57 pm
...You make a judgement like this from your gut. My gut tells me he is dangerous to our whole way of life. That’s my choice, if you have a different choice, crack on, but we all can’t complain about the consequences later...
Your gut is full of sh1t

aggi
Posts: 8762
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:31 am
Been Liked: 2109 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by aggi » Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:04 pm

claretandy wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:08 pm
And they we're given a bed, then the Doctors decided to give it to a more serious case, they were given chairs to sit on, but chose to lie him on the floor instead.
I think most people would suggest that the solution there is more beds, not shifting a sick four year old into a chair because someone else needs the bed.

I'm quite glad you ignored my suggestion not to try and spin this one though, it's been pretty entertaining.

android
Posts: 670
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:01 am
Been Liked: 119 times
Has Liked: 43 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by android » Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:10 pm

martin_p wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:54 pm
I’m not answering that question as it’s not my argument. I’m accusing you of hypocrisy if a major reason for not voting Labour is an increase in hatefulness but you’re voting for the Tories under whom hatefulness continues to increase.
Nice one Martin. So I am lacking decency and also a hypocrite. I just need one more Corbyn supporter to come along and call me a liar for a left wing liberal hat trick of tolerance and open mindedness!

I am not being hypocritical on this particular issue because I genuinely believe that a Corbyn government would encourage class and race (antisemitism) hatred and I don't believe that hatred of any kind would be as big a problem under a Johnson government. You take a different view and I accept that.

I was tempted to ask you if you enjoy name calling in person but I guess you probably don't mix with morally inferior Tory voters!

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by martin_p » Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:11 pm

claretandy wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:01 pm
The GP miss-diagnosed, i would have gone straight to urgent care.
Would you have got a specialist there? You didn’t answer whether you use GPs, although I know that you’re one of those that believe if one ‘expert’ gets something wrong the rest can be safely ignored so I guess you won’t be any more.

Bordeauxclaret
Posts: 10272
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:36 pm
Been Liked: 3327 times
Has Liked: 1942 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Bordeauxclaret » Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:25 pm

Best page of this whole thread yet.

android
Posts: 670
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:01 am
Been Liked: 119 times
Has Liked: 43 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by android » Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:29 pm

Erasmus wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:20 pm
Android, I can well understand your fears of the consequences of a Labour government, but I will ask you as I have asked others: What are the Conservative Party's proposed solutions to the terrible problems of underfunding of social care, health, and education as well as the alleviation of poverty and destitution? What are the Conservatives going to do to get rid of the intolerable sight of people having to rely on food banks to get enough to eat? Do you believe the Conservatives will put an end to all this?
Tough questions Erasmus and it's tragic that our political parties cannot have a serious debate about these issues. Social care, the NHS, tackling homelessness should be cross party issues rather than political footballs. I don't think the definition of poverty helps. I believe it is based on a percentage of average income, which produces very high levels of official poverty, which many cannot take seriously.

I don't think the Conservatives will put an end to all our problems. They have made their intentions clear on the NHS and education. What will happen to people who need to use food banks (not all usage being from genuine need but probably I will be pilloried for just mentioning that) and homelessness I'm not sure. I don't share the view that Conservatives are somehow fundamentally nasty selfish people who don't care about poor people (although true of some no doubt). Part of the lack of attention to these issues is due to the ridiculous exhausting demands of parliament trying and failing to deal with Brexit over the past 4 years to the exclusion of other concerns. It is seen as a cliché but my overriding view is that any government has a better chance of improving life for people at the bottom with a strong economy and low unemployment. Hence my fear of the Corbyn/Mcdonnell economic madness (as I see it).

Inchy
Posts: 2828
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2016 5:32 pm
Been Liked: 1332 times
Has Liked: 95 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Inchy » Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:31 pm

claretandy wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:01 pm
The GP miss-diagnosed, i would have gone straight to urgent care.
Stop clutching at straws and accept you're wrong on this one. You're making an t*t of yourself.


The GP told them to go to A and E because of suspected pneumonia.

The same thing happened to my daughter a few weeks ago. I took her to the GP for her jabs and mentioned she had quite a rough cough, The doctor auscultated and percussed and told me to go to the CAT unit as she suspected my daughter may have pneumonia.

I don't understand what's so confusing about that and why you feel the need to patronise the expertise of a GP. I assume just by your comments they are far more educated than you.

Firthy
Posts: 4966
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:04 am
Been Liked: 1607 times
Has Liked: 275 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Firthy » Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:11 pm

It doesn't matter which party is in power, there simply isn't enough money to go round. There are too may benefits these days and not just hand outs but things like maternity/paternity leave etc. which we never used to have. Our population is growing but thanks to automation there are less jobs and this will only get worse. People don't want to pay higher taxes, NI or rates but this money has to come from somewhere and the social welfare system is now unaffordable, there are too many people dependent on it, hence too much coming out and not enough going in. No I don't have the answers but I do know it's only going to get worse.
This user liked this post: Fenwick

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by martin_p » Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:20 pm

android wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:10 pm
Nice one Martin. So I am lacking decency and also a hypocrite. I just need one more Corbyn supporter to come along and call me a liar for a left wing liberal hat trick of tolerance and open mindedness!

I am not being hypocritical on this particular issue because I genuinely believe that a Corbyn government would encourage class and race (antisemitism) hatred and I don't believe that hatred of any kind would be as big a problem under a Johnson government. You take a different view and I accept that.

I was tempted to ask you if you enjoy name calling in person but I guess you probably don't mix with morally inferior Tory voters!
I’m not ‘taking a view’ I’m looking at the stats. Hate crimes are up and hate crimes against Muslims are running at three times the levels against Jews. That’s under Tory governments and at least the previous Tory governments weren’t led by someone with a history of using racist language. How’s that going to get better?

Devils_Advocate
Posts: 12345
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:43 pm
Been Liked: 5202 times
Has Liked: 920 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Devils_Advocate » Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:26 pm

martin_p wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:20 pm
I’m not ‘taking a view’ I’m looking at the stats. Hate crimes are up and hate crimes against Muslims are running at three times the levels against Jews. That’s under Tory governments and at least the previous Tory governments weren’t led by someone with a history of using racist language. How’s that going to get better?
And have the front to criticise Corbyn for hand picking the forms of bigotry to care about

aggi
Posts: 8762
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:31 am
Been Liked: 2109 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by aggi » Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:36 pm

Firthy wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:11 pm
It doesn't matter which party is in power, there simply isn't enough money to go round. There are too may benefits these days and not just hand outs but things like maternity/paternity leave etc. which we never used to have. Our population is growing but thanks to automation there are less jobs and this will only get worse. People don't want to pay higher taxes, NI or rates but this money has to come from somewhere and the social welfare system is now unaffordable, there are too many people dependent on it, hence too much coming out and not enough going in. No I don't have the answers but I do know it's only going to get worse.
The main issue isn't benefits or paternity/maternity leave or whatever, it's people living longer and the costs associated with that. They absolutely dwarf things like unemployment benefits and the like.

No party has yet grasped that nettle though and I'm not surprised. It's a difficult and emotive subject and the solutions aren't going to be popular.

Erasmus
Posts: 761
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 1:46 pm
Been Liked: 574 times
Has Liked: 44 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Erasmus » Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:55 pm

Thanks for that reply, Android, although I would point out that recent research concluded that 94% of those using food banks did so because of 'destitution', their word not mine.

What you seem to be saying is that you think that the Labour Party's taxation plans would make a bad situation worse and so we can't look for a solution there. Which is tantamount to saying there is no feasible solution at all. We should vote Conservative because they won't make things worse.

You will understand that I can't accept the view that nothing substantial can be done to ease the plight of those who are destitute, elderly, disabled or receiving a substandard education, and as that is all that you are suggesting the Conservatives can do I won't vote for them.

I saw a graph on the television which showed that a no-deal Brexit will demand almost as much government borrowing as Labour's spending plans; but whereas Brexit will deliver no tangible benefits to the people of the country, Labour's increased spending might do. I know it is a gamble, but for me the crisis of poverty and destitution is so acute, and shameful for Britain, that doing more or less nothing is unthinkable.
These 4 users liked this post: jordsclarets Greenmile martin_p longsidepies

claretandy
Posts: 4751
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 953 times
Has Liked: 238 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by claretandy » Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:01 pm

Inchy wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:31 pm
Stop clutching at straws and accept you're wrong on this one. You're making an t*t of yourself.


The GP told them to go to A and E because of suspected pneumonia.

The same thing happened to my daughter a few weeks ago. I took her to the GP for her jabs and mentioned she had quite a rough cough, The doctor auscultated and percussed and told me to go to the CAT unit as she suspected my daughter may have pneumonia.

I don't understand what's so confusing about that and why you feel the need to patronise the expertise of a GP. I assume just by your comments they are far more educated than you.
Well i took my son to the GP when he was in pain and he was sent home saying it was trapped wind, we took him to urgent care and he had a serious water infection and spent 3 days in Hospital. He could have died if i'd have listened to the GP.

Devils_Advocate
Posts: 12345
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:43 pm
Been Liked: 5202 times
Has Liked: 920 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Devils_Advocate » Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:08 pm

claretandy wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:01 pm
Well i took my son to the GP when he was in pain and he was sent home saying it was trapped wind, we took him to urgent care and he had a serious water infection and spent 3 days in Hospital. He could have died if i'd have listened to the GP.
With such a terrible personal experience you would think you just might empathise with the cautious GP not risking a young childs health and sending them to the hospital - very strange.

AndrewJB
Posts: 3808
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 1159 times
Has Liked: 754 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndrewJB » Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:09 pm

Darthlaw wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:40 pm
Complete denial of the fiscal **** show Labour left last time isn't a great look for you either. In fact, scratch that, it's par for the course for your average uber Labour supporter, only concerned with passing the debt onto the next generation.
Look up Reginald Maudling’s note to Callaghan, to understand Byrne’s joke.

If you want to talk shitshows: UK national debt when Labour left office - £850 million. U.K. National debt after the Tories have been in office for nine years - £2.1 trillion. Austerity failed and happened only so the Tories could hand out tax breaks for the rich. The Tories cannot be trusted with the economy.

AndrewJB
Posts: 3808
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 1159 times
Has Liked: 754 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndrewJB » Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:20 pm

Erasmus wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:55 pm
Thanks for that reply, Android, although I would point out that recent research concluded that 94% of those using food banks did so because of 'destitution', their word not mine.

What you seem to be saying is that you think that the Labour Party's taxation plans would make a bad situation worse and so we can't look for a solution there. Which is tantamount to saying there is no feasible solution at all. We should vote Conservative because they won't make things worse.

You will understand that I can't accept the view that nothing substantial can be done to ease the plight of those who are destitute, elderly, disabled or receiving a substandard education, and as that is all that you are suggesting the Conservatives can do I won't vote for them.

I saw a graph on the television which showed that a no-deal Brexit will demand almost as much government borrowing as Labour's spending plans; but whereas Brexit will deliver no tangible benefits to the people of the country, Labour's increased spending might do. I know it is a gamble, but for me the crisis of poverty and destitution is so acute, and shameful for Britain, that doing more or less nothing is unthinkable.
Back in the Thirties the Canadian government was asked to provide more money to alleviate destitution arising from the Great Depression, not with handouts but through capital works projects creating work. It responded that there wasn’t more money. As soon as WWII began, the government employed hundreds of thousands of men, fed and housed them, and even paid them to travel to different parts of the world. The assertion that there wasn't any enough money is a lie.
Last edited by AndrewJB on Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Darthlaw
Posts: 3060
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:08 pm
Been Liked: 1177 times
Has Liked: 414 times
Location: Death Star, Dark Side Row S Seat 666

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Darthlaw » Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:38 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:09 pm

If you want to talk shitshows: UK national debt when Labour left office - £850 million. U.K. National debt after the Tories have been in office for nine years - £2.1 trillion. Austerity failed and happened only so the Tories could hand out tax breaks for the rich. The Tories cannot be trusted with the economy.
What was the deficit, the Tories inherited from Labour again?

I know you guys aren’t good with debt and all but it really doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that whoever came after Labour couldn’t avoid increasing debt with the deficit they inherited.

Or maybe you could explain how you get rid of a £103 billion budget deficit overnight? Corbyn balance transfer?

Spiral
Posts: 5005
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:37 am
Been Liked: 2518 times
Has Liked: 333 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Spiral » Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:50 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:20 pm
Back in the Thirties the Canadian government was asked to provide more money to alleviate destitution arising from the Great Depression, not with handouts but through capital works projects creating work. It responded that there wasn’t more money. As soon as WWII began, the government employed hundreds of thousands of men, fed and housed them, and even paid them to travel to different parts of the world. The assertion that there was any enough money is a lie.
It's quite incredible that a question as fundamental as "where does money come from?" is relegated to a niche among academia and technocrats and never enters the public discourse. Would you believe, it was UKIP of all parties who tried (failed, but tried nonetheless) to have a discussion on this in 2015 (or 2017, can't remember exactly). Not so much a question of challenging a system or anything, but shining a light on something that fundamentally underpins how an economy works can't be a bad thing, if you ask me. I imagine every party with their own niche already carved out has long ago made a political calculation that the public would quickly lose interest in any conversation about even the most basic principles of money creation, but ultimately that's a problem for the electorate, who only ever reward slogans and as such are quite deservedly treated like dummies.
Last edited by Spiral on Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

taio
Posts: 11520
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:17 am
Been Liked: 3220 times
Has Liked: 340 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by taio » Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:01 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:09 pm
Look up Reginald Maudling’s note to Callaghan, to understand Byrne’s joke.

If you want to talk shitshows: UK national debt when Labour left office - £850 million. U.K. National debt after the Tories have been in office for nine years - £2.1 trillion. Austerity failed and happened only so the Tories could hand out tax breaks for the rich. The Tories cannot be trusted with the economy.
Please can you provide your sources for the £850m and £2.1 trillion figures.

clarethomer
Posts: 3104
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:24 am
Been Liked: 942 times
Has Liked: 410 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by clarethomer » Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:08 pm

taio wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:01 pm
Please can you provide your sources for the £850m and £2.1 trillion figures.
Not my post but presume its something to do with this...

https://fullfact.org/economy/public-debt/

Locked