General Election Is On

[Jakubclaret]

Instances of voter fraud, let alone that which is concentrated enough to swing an election, is so infrequent as to be statistically insignificant, and while there is no such thing as an acceptable level of voter fraud, like all things in life where the upholding of law is concerned, the actions taken to uphold the law need to be balanced against the risks inherent in those actions.

Anyone arguing for electronic voting machines has a terribly naïve understanding of technology. Those machines are far more insecure than a paper ballot; susceptible to, at best, glitches, and at worst, hacks, and the only people in the country who would benefit from their use are the companies close enough to govt ministers able to secure the undoubtedly lucrative contract to supply them. The idea of fingerprint databases is so near-sighted and horrifically Orwellian that it doesn't even need comment. Which brings us to ID. If you truly believe in democracy the baseline should always be enfranchisement (conditional; age etc) as a birth right, and any impediment to the exercising of this right, the ostensible necessity of any obstacle...sorry...'safeguard' to one's ability to vote freely should always be balanced against the justification for its use, so to put it crudely, it comes down to the arithmetic of election security vs the potential for disenfranchisement, which in the case of voter ID and it's potential effect on enfranchisement is so hilariously lop sided that one's mask slips with its advocacy. There are too many people on here, and elsewhere out in the world, using the language of ballot integrity to justify voter suppression because they have at some point in their life, somewhere, somehow, internalised that it advances their politics. Don't dare pretend otherwise.

You seem quite knowledgeable about the subject, I know the fingerprint IDs work effectively with clocking in & out at work & security access to sensitive areas, it’d need some kind of testing whether viable on a large scale before rolling it out nationwide to establish whether it had any promise, regarding the security hacks wouldn’t some sort of firewall safeguard against hacks & malware style attacks, (I realise consistent potential to be compromised) the ballot integrity seems to be questionable & quite frankly open to exploitation in my view, the existing levels of voter fraud may be small now & insignificant in a major swing to influencing any outcome, but is there a possibility it could increase to a concerning level, I’m not a expert on this, it was just a common sense suggestion looking at improving a problem & minimising fraud.

[Imploding Turtle]

You're missing what I said.
It isnt people who turn up at the booth whose vote is being stolen, but those people sat at home with either no intention of voting, or putting their trust in a third party with a political bias. When a postal vote arrives at the count, what is proof is there to show that it was filled in by the person who's name is on the paper.

Do you think that fraudulent voters are magically predicting, with near 100% accuracy, the people who aren't going to vote?

[Colburn_Claret]

Do you think that fraudulent voters are magically predicting, with near 100% accuracy, the people who aren't going to vote?

No they go knocking on the door and asking, whilst out canvassing. If they say they're not voting what easier than to apply. Then there are those who might be elderly and appreciate the help of the kind chap happy to fill in the form for them, and post it as well.
As I said, it's too easy to manipulate if you have the desire, and as was shown in the Peterborough by-election, there were a lot of iffy postal votes that ultimately could have affected the result.

I'm not against postal voting, I just think there has to be a way of verifying the authenticity of the voter.

[Imploding Turtle]

No they go knocking on the door and asking, whilst out canvassing. If they say they're not voting what easier than to apply. Then there are those who might be elderly and appreciate the help of the kind chap happy to fill in the form for them, and post it as well.
As I said, it's too easy to manipulate if you have the desire, and as was shown in the Peterborough by-election, there were a lot of iffy postal votes that ultimately could have affected the result.

I'm not against postal voting, I just think there has to be a way of verifying the authenticity of the voter.

And you're saying this is happening on a massive scale up and down the country?

The peterborough-by-election. Remind me, if you don't mind, what was the outcome of that investigation?

[AndyClaret]

Latest poll, big majority territory.

[ClaretAndJew]

Imagine wanting the tories to win when you live in Burnley.

[AndyClaret]

Imagine wanting the tories to win when you live in Burnley.

I've done very well under the Tories thank you very much.

[ClaretAndJew]

I've done very well under the Tories thank you very much.

Elaborate. That’s genuinely good but can you expound?

[Goobs]

Imagine wanting the tories to win when you live in Burnley.

Out of interest (Genuinely asking as I'm not overly into politics), in your opinion who should the people of Burnley want to vote for (considering Burnley was largely pro brexit)?

Labour, whose MP voted consistently against the wishes of her constituents?

Lib Dems, who are opposed to Brexit?

Greens, I believe the above also applies (don't know too much about them to be honest)?

BP ?

I know there is more to consider than just Brexit but it is a major issue and will be the main focus of most (all) parties in their campaigning I would expect.

[ClaretAndJew]

Out of interest (Genuinely asking as I'm not overly into politics), in your opinion who should the people of Burnley want to vote for (considering Burnley was largely pro brexit)?

Labour, whose MP voted consistently against the wishes of her constituents?

Lib Dems, who are opposed to Brexit?

Greens, I believe the above also applies (don't know too much about them to be honest)?

BP ?

I know there is more to consider than just Brexit but it is a major issue and will be the main focus of most (all) parties in their campaigning I would expect.

This is an interesting question and obviously difficult to answer though I guess it depends what your bigger picture ideas are or whether you care locally or on a more national scale.

Funnily enough in Padiham the only council members who seem to do anything and engage with people are ones who’s policies I don’t agree with.

For me, I’m a remain voter and always voted labour. Logically you would think Lib Dems but they aren’t going to win and I don’t want a local Tory government.

[Rick_Muller]

Out of interest (Genuinely asking as I'm not overly into politics), in your opinion who should the people of Burnley want to vote for (considering Burnley was largely pro brexit)?

Labour, whose MP voted consistently against the wishes of her constituents?

Lib Dems, who are opposed to Brexit?

Greens, I believe the above also applies (don't know too much about them to be honest)?

BP ?

I know there is more to consider than just Brexit but it is a major issue and will be the main focus of most (all) parties in their campaigning I would expect.

It is similar to those remainers in Tory strongholds who oppose Brexit - who do they vote for...? Lib Dems..? Labour...? The problem is that this Election will be a pseudo Referendum whether we like it or not. People will vote on Brexit and other issues will be forgotten. Personally this is the main reason why I wanted a second referendum before an election, and it is also the reason why BoJo has pushed hard for an Election - so that he can hopefully (in his eyes) gain a parliamentary majority and force Brexit through knowing that Corbyn is unlikely to win and Lib Dems are not going to be strong enough to make enough of a difference.

For me, I will have to vote Labour to oppose my Tory MP (Nadine Dorries) when I would prefer to vote Lib Dems on other policies and for remain too, but our Lib Dem candidate was no where near close enough to win in 2017.

[tiger76]

Ringo's Christmas wish list-

The following MPs to be turfed out by their constituents-

1 Dominic Grieve

2 Anna Soubrey

3 Yvette Cooper

4 Owen Smith

5 Sarah Wollaston


Any of the above will do. More to come.

Owen Smith won't be turfed out as he's not standing.

Soubry's apparently standing under the CUK banner in a hyper-marginal Con-Lab seat,she'll be lucky to keep her deposit,dear oh dear.

A couple of other rebels to note.

Heidi Allen is not standing after her defection to the Lib Dems,she cites the constant abuse she's suffered,totally out-of-order that anyone should have to endure this treatment,however you do have to wonder if she's realised it would be a tough slog to win South Cambridgeshire as a non Conservative candidate.

Amber Rudd not standing in Hastings and Rye,on paper that should help Labour pick up this seat.

[RingoMcCartney]

From the spectator-


At long last, it looks like there’s going to be a general election to break the Brexit deadlock. The House of Commons has voted to hold an election on 12 December, after MPs on both sides of the political aisle backed a one-line government bill, which now moves on to the House of Lords.

But rather unfortunately, one MP did not exactly react to the news that Parliament would be dissolved for a Christmas contest with good grace. Shortly after the vote, the former Conservative MP Anna Soubry used a point of order to put her bizarre spin on the Commons’ decision. The ‘Change UK – The Independent Group’ MP began by saying that, despite just voting by 438 to 20 for a general election, the House did not actually want one:



‘I know it is uncomfortable sometimes to speak truth to power. But Mr Speaker would it be in order to record that in private, many of us have come to the conclusion that the majority of backbenchers on both sides do not want a general election?



And would it be, because as the honourable lady has said: “fear from whatever quarter it may come, will be an abiding thing that will come out,” and history will record that of this Parliament. And a lack of courage from too many is also a mark of the end of this Parliament.’

Before adding that she believed the House of Commons would rather support a People’s Vote too:

‘Would it also be in order to record, Mr Speaker, that in private again, from the conversations that take place, as you understand, it is undoubtably a fact that the majority of Members of this Parliament support a People’s Vote rather than a general election?’

Clearly Soubry isn’t used to respecting a democratic vote…



And theres a gaggle of remoaners on this message board that think and sound just as ridiculous as one of their heroines, Hysterical Anna "hold the tonic barman" Soubrey!

[RingoMcCartney]

Owen Smith standing down!

That's one ticked off the xmas wish list, before a vote has even been cast !


Amber Rudd jumps before she was booted as well!!



Reasons to be cheerful!

[Cryssys]

He'll get about 38, probably. Enough to win easily.

So 38% of those voting can elect a majority government whilst the views of the 62% who wanted something else are ignored.

Democracy anyone?

[GodIsADeeJay81]

So 38% of those voting can elect a majority government whilst the views of the 62% who wanted something else are ignored.

Democracy anyone?

Pretty much how it's always been tbh

[tiger76]

Owen Smith standing down!

That's one ticked off the xmas wish list, before a vote has even been cast !


Amber Rudd jumps before she was booted as well!!



Reasons to be cheerful!

Your friend John Bercow is going tomorrow Ringo.

Speaker's last day confirmed
BBC political editor tweets:

Laura Kuenssberg
✔
@bbclaurak
Also whatever rumours, I understand that Bercow’s last day in the Speaker’s Chair will definitely be tomorrow and he will not be seen there again!

I have to chuckle at the Lib Dems adamantly stating that they won't enter into a coalition,they sure as hell ain't gonna win a majority,so how do they expect to stop brexit or get a 2nd referendum,all the better for the leave camp so i'm

[RingoMcCartney]

Your friend John Bercow is going tomorrow Ringo.

Speaker's last day confirmed
BBC political editor tweets:

Laura Kuenssberg
✔
@bbclaurak
Also whatever rumours, I understand that Bercow’s last day in the Speaker’s Chair will definitely be tomorrow and he will not be seen there again!

I have to chuckle at the Lib Dems adamantly stating that they won't enter into a coalition,they sure as hell ain't gonna win a majority,so how do they expect to stop brexit or get a 2nd referendum,all the better for the leave camp so i'm

He's no friend of mine. He is, however, an enemy of democracy.

But he, and the rest of the democracy denying vermin, are being flushed out by the very thing they've thwarted for the last 3 and a half years.

Democracy!

How ironic that yesterday Lindsay Hoyle, the deputy speaker, was there yesterday. He chose to follow advice from the electoral commission and follow accepted conventions and norms, not to allow under 18s and 2.4 million foreigners to vote in the forthcoming election.

Had Bercow, been in place , he may have torn up the rule book , AGAIN, and in another , "I will not be bound by precedence" moment, driven a coach and horses through the rules to be the referee that changed the rules mid-game, yet again.

As it was the snivelling , narcissistic, democracy denier was kept in his box, due to the parliamentary rules.

I love the thought of him gnashing his teeth in frustration , having to look on from the sidelines, as opportunity to go out with one final attention seeking bang , was denied him!






Sweet poetic justice.

[If it be your will]

So 38% of those voting can elect a majority government whilst the views of the 62% who wanted something else are ignored.

Democracy anyone?

It's not right, no. But FPTP was also put to us in the form of a referendum. Whilst I personally voted for AV, I accept I lost. It seems FPTP is what the electorate want. Can't reasonably change that before December 12th.

[Mala591]

Quite possible/probable that Labour and Lib Dems will form a remain coalition after the election subject to Corbyn standing down as leader of course.

[RMutt]

What motivates the ‘ democracy denying vermin’ do you think RingoMcCartney?

[aggi]

It's not right, no. But FPTP was also put to us in the form of a referendum. Whilst I personally voted for AV, I accept I lost. It seems FPTP is what the electorate want. Can't reasonably change that before December 12th.

To be honest I think a lot (myself included) didn't vote for AV because they wanted PR. My belief was that if we got AV then that would be the end of electoral reform but the vast majority of seats would return pretty much the same result as, on an individual constituency basis, the minor parties still wouldn't get enough of the vote.

[Spijed]

Interesting that the talk is of Labour party being worse than the one in 1983.

Yet Labour won 209 then seats compared to the worst election on record for a major party - that of the Conservatives who only got 165 in 1997.

I doubt Jeremy Corbyn will end up with even that few.

[RingoMcCartney]

What motivates the ‘ democracy denying vermin’ do you think RingoMcCartney?

He's a dweller of the metropolitan London borough of Ivory Towers. He rather likes being in the EU. For entitled people like him, preserving his privilege, and keeping the status quo as he sees it, is essential. To hell with the rest of the country, and Real People who've had 40 odd years years to decide membership of the European union has been a disaster for them, their family, their towns and all their futures. And to hell with accepting the largest single expression of democracy this nation has ever witnessed.

Hope that clears things up.


For your good self or anybody else. That's my final answer on the odious little toads motives.

[Lancasterclaret]

He's a dweller of the metropolitan London borough of Ivory Towers. He rather likes being in the EU. For entitled people like him, preserving his privilege, and keeping the status quo as he sees it, is essential. To hell with the rest of the country, and Real People who've had 40 odd years years to decide membership of the European union has been a disaster for them, their family, their towns and all their futures. And to hell with accepting the largest single expression of democracy this nation has ever witnessed.

Hope that clears things up.


For your good self or anybody else. That's my final answer on the odious little toads motives.

Do you just draw this stuff out of a hat?

[RingoMcCartney]

PMQs -

Corbyn accuses the government of having top secret meetings with American pharmaceutical companies.


Top secret meetings that he somehow knows all about!




Absolute comedy gold!

[tiger76]

PMQ'S focussed on the NHS,that's good ground for Corbyn to fight on,gives a big hint how the election campaign will be fought.

[RingoMcCartney]

Do you just draw this stuff out of a hat?

No.

However , I won the lottery ticket of life. I'm a Claret and a brexiteer!


Equal to you on the pitch. Superior to you at the ballot box.

[Bordeauxclaret]

Ringo is going to be comedy gold over the next six weeks.

I suspect each Friday will be more epic than the last.

[TheFamilyCat]

I suspect he's more likely to continue to be the emptiest vessel making the same boring noise.

I wonder if he will respond to the Transparency International accounts that were posted on here yesterday.

[Lancasterclaret]

Glad its a GE

If the country want to ruled by the Conservatives, then that is what they will vote for and that will give them the electoral mandate to do what they want with the big problem of Brexit.

Good or bad, finally having a possible solution is a very good thing.

[aggi]

What motivates the ‘ democracy denying vermin’ do you think RingoMcCartney?

They're getting £3.5m pounds a year from the EU. It must be true, Ringo read it on http://www.madeupbrexitnews.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[RMutt]

He's a dweller of the metropolitan London borough of Ivory Towers. He rather likes being in the EU. For entitled people like him, preserving his privilege, and keeping the status quo as he sees it, is essential. To hell with the rest of the country, and Real People who've had 40 odd years years to decide membership of the European union has been a disaster for them, their family, their towns and all their futures. And to hell with accepting the largest single expression of democracy this nation has ever witnessed.

Hope that clears things up.


For your good self or anybody else. That's my final answer on the odious little toads motives.

Sorry, perhaps I wasn’t clear enough. I was not just referring to Bercow, but all the MP’s who have appeared to go against their electorate by preferring to remain? What motivates them, do you think? They are not all in some metropolitan Euro bubble ivory tower.

[Bordeauxclaret]

Iwonder if he will respond to the Transparency International accounts that were posted on here yesterday.

I wouldn’t trust him to hold an Ice Cream the right way up so he’s not going to get his head around those by the time the GE is here.

[LoveCurryPies]

Interesting that the talk is of Labour party being worse than the one in 1983.

Impossible to compare 1983 with now.

Thatcher had the success of the Falklands War and clear aims for the country. We had been (approx) 95th (from memory) in the world rankings. Thatcher dragged the country into the top 10 and a major player in the G7 and EU meetings.

Michael Foot lacked charisma and was seen as old school Labour. Many feel Corbyn has been sitting on the Brexit fence and playing a game that was only about getting elected.

Many fear Corbyn and McConnell’s left wing policies will drag us back into the 1960’s era era of trade union powers resulting in strikes and daily power cuts.

[Damo]

It seems lots of Labour members are more terrified or Corbyn winning an election, than losing one

[aggi]

I wouldn’t trust him to hold an Ice Cream the right way up so he’s not going to get his head around those by the time the GE is here.

But I used bold and a big font and everything. That's the language of Ringo.

[Lancasterclaret]

It seems lots of Labour members are more terrified or Corbyn winning an election, than losing one

Corbyn is good, great even when the campaigning starts but he's going to really struggle with this one.

Its a Brexit election, and his policy isn't one or the other and I can't believe they have been daft enough to find themselves in this position.

[dsr]

Interesting that the talk is of Labour party being worse than the one in 1983.

Yet Labour won 209 then seats compared to the worst election on record for a major party - that of the Conservatives who only got 165 in 1997.

I doubt Jeremy Corbyn will end up with even that few.

On the other hand, the Tories got 30.7% of the vote in 1997 while Labour got 27.6% in 1983. I suppose they're talking about Labour now being potentially worse than Labour in 1983 because it's a direct comparison.

[RingoMcCartney]

Sorry, perhaps I wasn’t clear enough. I was not just referring to Bercow, but all the MP’s who have appeared to go against their electorate by preferring to remain? What motivates them, do you think? They are not all in some metropolitan Euro bubble ivory tower.

I dont know what motivates them. Youd have to asked them.

But I'm sure , that the ones who aren't running scared and stepping down, will soon see that in a great number of cases. Where their constituents voted leave and they've done everything to stop democracy being implemented. Their constituents will be motivated to see the back of them!

Cant come quick enough!

[RingoMcCartney]

Another to add to the xmas wish list

It's a long shot, but , Jo Swinson.

[TheFamilyCat]

I dont know what motivates them. Youd have to asked them.

But I'm sure , that the ones who aren't running scared and stepping down, will soon see that in a great number of cases. Where their constituents voted leave and they've done everything to stop democracy being implemented. Their constituents will be motivated to see the back of them!

Cant come quick enough!

You're assuming that their constituents still want to leave.

[RingoMcCartney]

I suspect he's more likely to continue to be the emptiest vessel making the same boring noise.

I wonder if he will respond to the Transparency International accounts that were posted on here yesterday.

Yeah I'll hold my hand up, looks like I got that one wrong.

It's no biggy!

[RingoMcCartney]

You're assuming that their constituents still want to leave.

Yes I am. According to john curtess, the highly regarded polling guru. Peoples opinions have barely changed since the 2016 Peoples Vote. So I've no need to assume any different.

[Lancasterclaret]

Yeah I'll hold my hand up, looks like I got that one wrong.

It's no biggy!

But it is mate, it is

You found four fake news sites, and put it on here because you so wanted to believe it.

A simple check of them would have told you that they weren't being entirely honest.

But you didn't do that, because you wanted to believe it more than you cared whether it was true or not.

In a nutshell, this is why the UK is going through the **** since 2016

[tiger76]

Another to add to the xmas wish list

It's a long shot, but , Jo Swinson.

Her majority is just 5,339,so she's not bulletproof if the SNP replicate 2015 and sweep the board in Scotland.

She's also got to juggle a national campaign and making sure she doesn't neglect her own seat.

On balance i suspect she'll hold,but there will be some upsets,there always is.

No election pacts or deals,pre election anyhow,let's see what transpires in the event of a hung parliament.

Earlier, the Lib Dems ruled out the possibility of forming part of a post-election coalition, and the SNP has now ruled out any election pacts or deal.

When asked about the possibility of a pact, the party's Westminster leader Ian Blackford told BBC Breakfast: "No, we are in an election campaign and quite unambiguously...we are standing in all 59 seats in Scotland."

I don't see how either the Lib Dems get a 2nd brexit referendum,or the SNP get a 2nd indy ref,without forming some agreement presumably with Labour post-election.if the numbers add up,this might not be a formal coalition,but could be a supply and confidence agreement,

[Spijed]

Her majority is just 5,339,so she's not bulletproof if the SNP replicate 2015 and sweep the board in Scotland.

She's also got to juggle a national campaign and making sure she doesn't neglect her own seat.

On balance i suspect she'll hold,but there will be some upsets,there always is.

No election pacts or deals,pre election anyhow,let's see what transpires in the event of a hung parliament.

Earlier, the Lib Dems ruled out the possibility of forming part of a post-election coalition, and the SNP has now ruled out any election pacts or deal.

When asked about the possibility of a pact, the party's Westminster leader Ian Blackford told BBC Breakfast: "No, we are in an election campaign and quite unambiguously...we are standing in all 59 seats in Scotland."

I don't see how either the Lib Dems get a 2nd brexit referendum,or the SNP get a 2nd indy ref,without forming some agreement presumably with Labour post-election.if the numbers add up,this might not be a formal coalition,but could be a supply and confidence agreement,

If he campaigns in his own seat Boris is under enormous pressure too.

[RingoMcCartney]

Her majority is just 5,339,so she's not bulletproof if the SNP replicate 2015 and sweep the board in Scotland.

She's also got to juggle a national campaign and making sure she doesn't neglect her own seat.

On balance i suspect she'll hold,but there will be some upsets,there always is.

No election pacts or deals,pre election anyhow,let's see what transpires in the event of a hung parliament.

Earlier, the Lib Dems ruled out the possibility of forming part of a post-election coalition, and the SNP has now ruled out any election pacts or deal.

When asked about the possibility of a pact, the party's Westminster leader Ian Blackford told BBC Breakfast: "No, we are in an election campaign and quite unambiguously...we are standing in all 59 seats in Scotland."

I don't see how either the Lib Dems get a 2nd brexit referendum,or the SNP get a 2nd indy ref,without forming some agreement presumably with Labour post-election.if the numbers add up,this might not be a formal coalition,but could be a supply and confidence agreement,

All true.

[RingoMcCartney]

If he campaigns in his own seat Boris is under enormous pressure too.

Sam Gymah is switching seats.

Chuka Umuna the man who boasted of always wanting to proudly represent the people of Streatham, has decided that's no longer the case!

If he wins in his new seat, he'll have had almost nearly as many constituencies as he's had parties!

[tiger76]

If he campaigns in his own seat Boris is under enormous pressure too.

His majority is similar to Swinson's,it would be ironic if 2 of the party leaders were unseated,Tim Farron had a close shave in 2017 so being a party leader doesn't guarantee a safe passage.

I really can't see how Johnson can up sticks at this late stage,he should be able to hold Uxbridge fairly easily,sitting PM'S usually get a boost to their own vote,Labour are the obvious challengers and i'm sure they''ll campaign strongly in the PM'S backyard,but they've got some tough defences against the Lib Dems in London,and they won't want to waste resources fruitlessly chasing seats which they're unlikely to win.

Zac Goldsmith is the big scalp for the Lib Dems in London,Richmond was 75% remain and his majority is a mere 45,this is normally a high turn-out area as well,and it was a mild surprise he was able to overturn the by-election loss.