Grenfell Tower Report

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Burnley Ace
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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by Burnley Ace » Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:06 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:How did they know it was a "generic policy"? If the firefighters told you to do something to maximise the likelihood that you would survive, are you really going to either ignore that, or get into a discussion with them as to why that specific instruction is the best instruction for the specific situation you are in?

Or, as a non-stupid person would do, would you rather they get on with their job of saving your life rather than explain to some resident who is slowing them down with questions and debate?
Because it was a generic policy, it was printed on a safety advice plaque! have you read any of the report or are you just gobbing off your normal ****. What did the Judge say about stay put? What did the Lankal House recommendations say? Why did Danny Cotton admit that stay put wasn’t suitable for Grenfell?The firefighters didn’t actually tell them what to do!! You faux outrage would be laughable if it wasn’t so predictable.

So you would sit quietly and wait would you just because you’ve been told to? Do you do everything you are told? I bet Shahid Ahmed didn’t have people like you in his flat.

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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by Steve-Harpers-perm » Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:07 pm

Rick_Muller wrote:https://www.facebook.com/871020093/post ... =n&sfns=mo

Great post here on Facebook sums up a lot of what I feel about it
Just a total lack of empathy and human decency. Sadly it’s also evident on this thread.

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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by Burnley Ace » Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:08 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Well, they are victims. Literally. It's not "sacrosanct" it's the ******* truth. And all they did wrong, apparently, is follow the instructions of trained ******* professionals. Apparently this makes them stupid though.
Go and look up what sacrosanct means

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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by Jakubclaret » Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:09 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Well, they are victims. Literally. It's not "sacrosanct" it's the ******* truth. And all they did wrong, apparently, is follow the instructions of trained ******* professionals. Apparently this makes them stupid though.
Sometimes following instructions can be the worst course of action, you need the freedom to show your own initiative & think on your plates of meat & not comply with protocol, people who create the rules are usually out of touch with the real world, in life I rarely follow instructions & go with my gut instinct, & so far it's stood me in good stead.

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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by Imploding Turtle » Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:09 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:Because it was a generic policy, it was printed on a safety advice plaque! have you read any of the report or are you just gobbing off your normal ****. What did the Judge say about stay put? What did the Lankal House recommendations say? Why did Danny Cotton admit that stay put wasn’t suitable for Grenfell?The firefighters didn’t actually tell them what to do!! You faux outrage would be laughable if it wasn’t so predictable.

So you would sit quietly and wait would you just because you’ve been told to? Do you do everything you are told? I bet Shahid Ahmed didn’t have people like you in his flat.
How were the residents, in this instance, supposed to know that staying put wasn't going to be the most effective advice? They weren't professionals. They didn't have an outside view of what was happening. How could they all have possibly known to ignore the advice?

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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by Imploding Turtle » Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:10 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:Sometimes following instructions can be the worst course of action, you need the freedom to show your own initiative & think on your plates of meat & not comply with protocol, people who create the rules are usually out of touch with the real world, in life I rarely follow instructions & go with my gut instinct, & so far it's stood me in good stead.
Go on then, ignore traffic lights.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by Burnley Ace » Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:23 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:How were the residents, in this instance, supposed to know that staying put wasn't going to be the most effective advice? They weren't professionals. They didn't have an outside view of what was happening. How could they all have possibly known to ignore the advice?
As Shahid Ahmed said to the enquiry - he lived on the 18th floor and decided to leave when his kitchen window exploded or read the testimony of Miguel Alves the chair of the Grenfell Tower Leasholders Association. I’m not criticising the residents just pointing out that there comes a point when your own judgement tells you that the advice printed on a plaque on the back of your door might not be, in all the circumstances, the best to follow.

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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by Imploding Turtle » Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:29 pm

Bordeauxclaret wrote:Andrew Bridgen with a “hold my beer” moment.

It's even dumber. I assumed he had simply misspoke in the moment, but he actually took a good few seconds to think.

Skip to 45 seconds if you're pressed for time.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p07t31w6" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by Damo » Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:36 pm

Well stormzy "doesn't know the ins and outs" but knows who's fault it is
https://twitter.com/stormzy/status/1191 ... 39488?s=09" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So that will do for me

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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by dsr » Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:48 pm

So with hindsight, was Rees-Mogg right or wrong to say that it the Grenfell residents should have left the building? Obviously they should have left the building, though equally obviously they didn't know that at the time; but is it wrong to make that obvious point?

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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by martin_p » Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:53 pm

dsr wrote:So with hindsight, was Rees-Mogg right or wrong to say that it the Grenfell residents should have left the building? Obviously they should have left the building, though equally obviously they didn't know that at the time; but is it wrong to make that obvious point?
That’s not what he said. He implied the Grenfell residents lacked common sense. ‘I think if either of us were in a fire, whatever the fire brigade said, we would leave the burning building. It just seems the common sense thing to do.’

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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by dsr » Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:59 pm

martin_p wrote:That’s not what he said. He implied the Grenfell residents lacked common sense. ‘I think if either of us were in a fire, whatever the fire brigade said, we would leave the burning building. It just seems the common sense thing to do.’
You mean he implied that people in danger of their lives couldn't decide what was the right thing to do? Outrageous.

Except it's obvious they couldn't decide the right thing to do. If they had known the right thing to do, they would have done it.

If Rees-Mogg had just added a few words "but of course, in that situation, none of us knows what we would do until it happens", then there would be no opportunity for even faux outrage. Because obviously, the common sense thing to do in a fire - if you're mind is still as sharp and as calm as if you were in perfect safety, which of course hardly anyone's is - is to leave the building if at all possible, even if the fire brigade tells you different. You're safer outside than in.

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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by martin_p » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:11 am

dsr wrote:You mean he implied that people in danger of their lives couldn't decide what was the right thing to do? Outrageous.

Except it's obvious they couldn't decide the right thing to do. If they had known the right thing to do, they would have done it.

If Rees-Mogg had just added a few words "but of course, in that situation, none of us knows what we would do until it happens", then there would be no opportunity for even faux outrage. Because obviously, the common sense thing to do in a fire - if you're mind is still as sharp and as calm as if you were in perfect safety, which of course hardly anyone's is - is to leave the building if at all possible, even if the fire brigade tells you different. You're safer outside than in.
So if he’d said something different to what he said the reaction may have been different. What a truly desperate response.

And what exactly do you think the fire brigade advice is based on? A desire to see people die? It’s not necessarily ‘common sense’ in a tower block fire to get out as soon as possible, the fires 99% of the time are small and remain local to where it started. In those instances the reasoning is that you may be putting yourself in more danger by leaving your flat and possibly moving towards the fire.

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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by Imploding Turtle » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:18 am

I love it. "faux outrage" is making an appearance again.


Look, ****face, just because you lack the capacity to feel empathy for people who died in a fire in part as a result of poor instruction from the fire brigade, it doesn't mean that everyone does. And when those of us with the capacity for empathy feel outraged by one of our representatives representing us by accusing those victims of bring too stupid to live, it doesn't mean the outrage is "faux".

And if being called a ****face offends you, then, well, just call it "faux" offence because that makes everything I say OK then doesn't it? Hopefully the mods will see your report as a "faux" report.

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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:24 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:Go on then, ignore traffic lights.
I didn’t mean so literal, I just meant generally you are better off independently thinking & making correct decisions without being prompted, granted not everybody is capable.
Last edited by Jakubclaret on Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by dsr » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:24 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:usual tirade deleted.
Here are some simple facts.

1. Lots of people died in the Grenfell fire because they stayed put.
2. If they had tried to leave the building, many of them would have survived.

THIS IS NOT THE SAME AS SAYING THEY WERE STUPID. Instead of getting all outraged and incontinent because I have said something even vaguely different from your own world view, why not actually think about what I said? If thinking isn't something that's beyond your admittedly limited capabilities?

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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by Imploding Turtle » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:26 am

Image

what the **** is this? :lol:

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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by Imploding Turtle » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:35 am

DSR, did your objection to foul language (which i didn't use btw, i literally typed the asterisks) causes you to feel like you had to delete what i said before quoting me?

Interesting, isn't it? You objected to much that i used some asterisks in my post that you had to remove it, but feel less objection to a member of your representative government representing you by saying that victims of Grenfell died because they lacked common sense.


Here's a helpful guide for the rest of us, i suppose.

Objecting to asterisks in a post = Justified objection
Objecting to Victim-blaming the Grenfell victims - "faux" objection

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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by aggi » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:36 am

dsr wrote:You mean he implied that people in danger of their lives couldn't decide what was the right thing to do? Outrageous.

Except it's obvious they couldn't decide the right thing to do. If they had known the right thing to do, they would have done it.

If Rees-Mogg had just added a few words "but of course, in that situation, none of us knows what we would do until it happens", then there would be no opportunity for even faux outrage. Because obviously, the common sense thing to do in a fire - if you're mind is still as sharp and as calm as if you were in perfect safety, which of course hardly anyone's is - is to leave the building if at all possible, even if the fire brigade tells you different. You're safer outside than in.
Maybe you are (although obviously you're ignoring the perils of toxic smoke in communal areas, risk of crushing in narrow stairwells, etc) but it's also a pretty selfish approach. Those coming down will be stopping the firefighters and their equipment getting to the fire and helping those who are actually in danger. On the other hand, I guess that kind of I'm alright Jack perspective is reasonable to suggest that's what a Tory would think.

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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by aggi » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:37 am

Jakubclaret wrote:I didn’t mean so literal, I just meant generally you are better off independently thinking & making correct decisions without being prompted, granted not everybody is capable.
Gems like this are why jakubclaret is my favourite poster.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by Damo » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:52 am

Hes virtue Signalling again

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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by Imploding Turtle » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:57 am

"virtue-signalling" :lol:

All the Rationals are bringing out their heavy-hitters tonight.

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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by dsr » Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:37 am

aggi wrote:Maybe you are (although obviously you're ignoring the perils of toxic smoke in communal areas, risk of crushing in narrow stairwells, etc) but it's also a pretty selfish approach. Those coming down will be stopping the firefighters and their equipment getting to the fire and helping those who are actually in danger. On the other hand, I guess that kind of I'm alright Jack perspective is reasonable to suggest that's what a Tory would think.
This is the Grenfell fire we are talking about, is it? I don't think there is any doubt at all that the people who left the building, in defiance of the fire brigade's advice, did the right thing. Not selfish, not "I'm all right Jack", not Tory. Just doing the right thing. It wouldn't be the right thing in every instance, and for some people it may have been the wrong thing in this instance. But I wouldn't accuse anyone of selfishness by taking what they believed (correctly) to be the best action when their lives were in danger - especially as there were several instances of heroism of people risking, and sometimes losing, their own lives while saving others.

The fire brigade gave the wrong advice. That's been established.

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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by Taffy on the wing » Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:14 am

[quote="Rick_Muller"]https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50216606



an example of "a good day to bury bad news" with the election on everyone's mind. I am at a loss how the London Fire Brigade can be judged in this way. What exactly has happened to the people who stuck flammable material to the side of a tower block...?[/quote

They are pals with Boris and his buddies.......

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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by Taffy on the wing » Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:21 am

claret wizard wrote:The report that looks at the materials and building is due next year. They have produced this report earlier as it could have an impact immediately on how similar fires would be managed.
...Or on the Election? The "impact" on future fires? What difference would it make if there are still too few Fire personnel.......Typical Tory response BLAME someone else, it's never their fault!

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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by AndyClaret » Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:06 am

Mogg's wording was clumsy, i know what he meant, he's clarified what he meant, he should have made clear that he was talking "in hindsight". He shouldn't have said "common sense". Bridgen had a mare though.

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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by Steve-Harpers-perm » Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:46 am

AndyClaret wrote:Mogg's wording was clumsy, i know what he meant, he's clarified what he meant, he should have made clear that he was talking "in hindsight". He shouldn't have said "common sense". Bridgen had a mare though.
If only Jacob had received a proper education to help him avoid these clumsy moments when speaking.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by Burnley Ace » Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:51 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:I love it. "faux outrage" is making an appearance again.


Look, ****face, just because you lack the capacity to feel empathy for people who died in a fire in part as a result of poor instruction from the fire brigade, it doesn't mean that everyone does. And when those of us with the capacity for empathy feel outraged by one of our representatives representing us by accusing those victims of bring too stupid to live, it doesn't mean the outrage is "faux".

And if being called a ****face offends you, then, well, just call it "faux" offence because that makes everything I say OK then doesn't it? Hopefully the mods will see your report as a "faux" report.
Coming from you it means nothing. My point is valid and is proven by both the findings of the first enquiry and the testimony of survivors and their relatives, yours is a (another) political rant.

At least you are now accepting that there was poor instruction and stay put was proven to be wrong. Would you sit in a burning building because the fire instructions on the back of the door said so?

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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by Steve-Harpers-perm » Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:58 am

Burnley Ace wrote:Coming from you it means nothing. My point is valid and is proven by both the findings of the first enquiry and the testimony of survivors and their relatives, yours is a (another) political rant.

At least you are now accepting that there was poor instruction and stay put was proven to be wrong. Would you sit in a burning building because the fire instructions on the back of the door said so?
Which page of the report suggested the residents were at fault and a bit like Liverpool fans as you posted further up?

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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by TheFamilyCat » Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:17 am

Steve-Harpers-perm wrote:If only Jacob had received a proper education to help him avoid these clumsy moments when speaking.
Jacob or Jakub?
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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by aggi » Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:47 am

dsr wrote:This is the Grenfell fire we are talking about, is it? I don't think there is any doubt at all that the people who left the building, in defiance of the fire brigade's advice, did the right thing. Not selfish, not "I'm all right Jack", not Tory. Just doing the right thing. It wouldn't be the right thing in every instance, and for some people it may have been the wrong thing in this instance. But I wouldn't accuse anyone of selfishness by taking what they believed (correctly) to be the best action when their lives were in danger - especially as there were several instances of heroism of people risking, and sometimes losing, their own lives while saving others.

The fire brigade gave the wrong advice. That's been established.
It didn't seem like it from what you posted. You said the thing to do in a fire which is pretty general.

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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by joey13 » Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:58 am

Burnley Ace wrote:Their position as victims is sacrosanct and there can be absolutely no criticism of any of their actions.
Just what I thought , ridiculous comment

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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by martin_p » Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:59 am

aggi wrote:It didn't seem like it from what you posted. You said the thing to do in a fire which is pretty general.
He’s like Jacob Rees-Mogg, you’ve got to ignore the words he actually said (wrote) and work out what he meant to say.

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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by joey13 » Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:02 am

Burnley Ace wrote:But the stairway (there was only one) wasn’t always full of smoke and the fumes/smoke went upward not down.

Would you stay in a burning building just because the fire brigade had a generic policy saying you should or would you take responsibility for your own behaviour?
Own behaviour, OMG :o

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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by Helmshore Claret » Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:39 am

Apologies if previously mentioned; but what happened to the 'GET OUT AND STAY OUT' (official Fire Brigade advice)?
Perhaps one 'size doesn't fit all' where safety is concerned!

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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by martin_p » Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:35 am

Bridgen has apologised for defending JRM.

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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by Firthy » Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:48 am

Has there been any mention of the faulty electrical equipment that caused the fire? Was it bought new or an old item bought second hand and not serviced or checked.

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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by nil_desperandum » Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:22 am

martin_p wrote:Bridgen has apologised for defending JRM.
How odd.
Bridgen had time to process what JRM said, (like a full day), reflect on it and then construct an argument in his defence.
Having made that robust defence of JRM, he then apologises???
(At least JRM's unfortunate / indefensible comment was made spontaneously during an interview).

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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by Quickenthetempo » Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:35 am

Helmshore Claret wrote:Apologies if previously mentioned; but what happened to the 'GET OUT AND STAY OUT' (official Fire Brigade advice)?
Perhaps one 'size doesn't fit all' where safety is concerned!
Anyone with Kids will have had this programmed into them. Hours and hours watching Fireman Sam.

Quite educational on how to deal with fires for a cartoon, but some whopper declared it sexist.

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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by Rick_Muller » Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:43 am

Helmshore Claret wrote:Apologies if previously mentioned; but what happened to the 'GET OUT AND STAY OUT' (official Fire Brigade advice)?
Perhaps one 'size doesn't fit all' where safety is concerned!
that advice does not apply for tower blocks where they are compartmentalised, such as Grenfell. What is supposed to happen is the fire is contained by the very design of the building enabling the fire service to isolate and contain the fire and as such minimising the damage to the whole building. Unfortunately for Grenfell all of those design features were rendered absolutely useless by someone deciding to stick flammable material to the side of the building which meant the fire could spread easily.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by dougcollins » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:31 pm

Rick_Muller wrote:that advice does not apply for tower blocks where they are compartmentalised, such as Grenfell. What is supposed to happen is the fire is contained by the very design of the building enabling the fire service to isolate and contain the fire and as such minimising the damage to the whole building. Unfortunately for Grenfell all of those design features were rendered absolutely useless by someone deciding to stick flammable material to the side of the building which meant the fire could spread easily.
And ultimately, that is the crux of the matter.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by Burnley Ace » Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:35 pm

Steve-Harpers-perm wrote:Which page of the report suggested the residents were at fault and a bit like Liverpool fans as you posted further up?
Where have I said residents were at fault? For ease just quote the post number.

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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by Burnley Ace » Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:37 pm

joey13 wrote:Own behaviour, OMG :o
Do you always abdicate responsibility to others? Do you accept everything you are told by those in authority?

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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by Burnley Ace » Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:51 pm

Rick_Muller wrote:that advice does not apply for tower blocks where they are compartmentalised, such as Grenfell.
At 1.15am it became apparent that compartmentation had failed and residents on floors 5 and 6 had already detected smoke and realising that stay put had failed evacuated the building. By 1.40am 144 residents had ignored stay put (which wasn’t cancelled until 2.47) and made the decision to evacuate.

Did they show common sense or should they have followed the instructions and stayed put?

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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by Rick_Muller » Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:11 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:At 1.15am it became apparent that compartmentation had failed and residents on floors 5 and 6 had already detected smoke and realising that stay put had failed evacuated the building. By 1.40am 144 residents had ignored stay put (which wasn’t cancelled until 2.47) and made the decision to evacuate.

Did they show common sense or should they have followed the instructions and stayed put?
Without knowing the specifics about each individual case you know I can't answer that.

You should also know that making generalisation comments relating to common sense with the benefit of hindsight will invite ridicule, especially as you nor JRM were present in the building on the night of the fire. Perhaps some residents didn't have any common sense - does that make them lesser human beings and as such does that mean they deserved to die as a result of a decision to install flammable material onto a building making it unsafe?

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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by Imploding Turtle » Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:43 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:Coming from you it means nothing. My point is valid and is proven by both the findings of the first enquiry and the testimony of survivors and their relatives, yours is a (another) political rant.

At least you are now accepting that there was poor instruction and stay put was proven to be wrong. Would you sit in a burning building because the fire instructions on the back of the door said so?
What do you mean "now accepting"? When did i deny it? You're making **** up.

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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by Steve-Harpers-perm » Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:51 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:Where have I said residents were at fault? For ease just quote the post number.
Post 38 where you said Grenfell residents had taken on the mantle of Liverpool fans. I presumed you meant they weren’t innocent victims in this or do you mean they’ll have to wait 20 odd years for any kind of justice?

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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by Burnley Ace » Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:15 pm

Steve-Harpers-perm wrote:Post 38 where you said Grenfell residents had taken on the mantle of Liverpool fans. I presumed you meant they weren’t innocent victims in this or do you mean they’ll have to wait 20 odd years for any kind of justice?
You made a presumption that is incorrect and not backed up by sort of evidence. It’s you “projecting”

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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by Burnley Ace » Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:20 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:What do you mean "now accepting"? When did i deny it? You're making **** up.
Start with post #46.

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Re: Grenfell Tower Report

Post by Imploding Turtle » Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:39 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:Start with post #46.
This?
Imploding Turtle wrote:How did they know it was a "generic policy"? If the firefighters told you to do something to maximise the likelihood that you would survive, are you really going to either ignore that, or get into a discussion with them as to why that specific instruction is the best instruction for the specific situation you are in?

Or, as a non-stupid person would do, would you rather they get on with their job of saving your life rather than explain to some resident who is slowing them down with questions and debate?

That's not a denial that it was the wrong decision. This is me knowing that they didn't have the benefit of hindsight and made the best decision they could make with the information they had at the time. What you're doing is taking all the information available since the fire and judging their decisions based on information they didn't have, and defending people who said they lacked common sense because that acted based on the information available.

Just because a decision proves later to not lead to the best outcome doesn't mean that in the moment it wasn't the best decision with the information they had. I'd assume you would know this already. It's just common sense.

Stop being results orientated.

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