Sean Dyche and Chris Wilder

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Paul Waine
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Sean Dyche and Chris Wilder

Post by Paul Waine » Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:12 am

Wasn't sure where to post. Article in Saturday's Times re these two Premier League managers.

It didn't seem to fit with the "Sam Alardyce" thread.

It's lengthy, so bear with it.

Byline: James Gheerbrant

Why is it so hard to imagine Chris Wilder or Sean Dyche thriving at one of the elite clubs?

This Saturday, there are eight fixtures in the Premier League, that shiny altar to sporting internationalism. But, to paraphrase the Sesame Street song, one of these games is not like the others.

Sheffield United v Burnley will be contested by teams who have given, respectively, 97.9 per cent and 72.8 per cent of their minutes this season to British and Irish players (in a league where the other 18 teams average 38.9 per cent) and whose captains were born a combined distance of about 30 miles from their home grounds. It will be played at a stadium that bears no sponsor name and has been in use since 1889, and it will be played, at least in part, in the airspace above the Bramall Lane pitch — these are the only teams to have hit more than 19 per cent of their passes long this season.

What makes Sheffield United v Burnley so fascinating is precisely the fact that it goes against so much of what we think the modern Premier League is about: globalisation; cosmopolitanism; the inescapable tide of market forces; a two-dimensional, televisual style of football played on perfectly manicured green carpets. It is, in some ways, a throwback. But the men in the dugout are not regressive relics; instead, they are in the vanguard of English coaches.

You could be forgiven for mentally lumping Sean Dyche and Chris Wilder together; there are a lot of similarities. A husky baritone, a long but undistinguished playing career, an unapologetically old-school pastoral approach and a cultural emphasis on graft, honesty and standards. Dyche’s views on diving are common knowledge, as is his Burnley training-ground ban on gloves, hats and snoods; Wilder forbade his Sheffield United players from swapping shirts against Liverpool, and at Oxford United required his young players to type up a dossier on their opponents, which he would send back if it contained grammatical mistakes. Underlying the methods of both men is a layer of steely machismo: Dyche’s regime of forfeits includes a dip in the River Calder; during his half-time team-talk against Leicester City, Wilder ripped off his shirt.

It would be easy to ridicule this approach, even to demonise it. So the first thing that bears saying about Dyche and Wilder is that they are both, without caveat, doing an excellent job. This season, Sheffield United rank a highly respectable 14th in the Premier League for non-penalty expected goal difference (xG), which measures the quality of chances a side creates minus the quality of chances they concede, and thus accurately quantifies a team’s underlying performance level. Burnley are fifth, above Manchester United and Arsenal, and would probably be fourth if Leicester hadn’t played 125 minutes against ten men this season.

There are some important stylistic differences between Burnley and Sheffield United, but broadly it is fair to say that Dyche and Wilder have thrived by taking some of the more overlooked, unfashionable, perhaps even traditionally English elements of the game and subjecting them to the same sort of innovative rigour that elite clubs might devote to counterpressing or co-ordinated passing movements.

A large part of Burnley’s success, for example, is that they consistently have the lowest xG per shot in the league: in other words, they ensure that the chances they concede are low-quality by forcing their opponents to head the ball, shoot from distance or through a crowd of bodies. It doesn’t sound like rocket science, but to pull it off to that degree of excellence requires immense positional sophistication.

With Sheffield United, much attention has been lavished on their overlapping centre backs, a genuinely novel tactical ploy. But it is also true that Wilder, since his Northampton Town days, has been arguably the most imaginative war-gamer of set-piece situations in English football, devising intricate routines with blockers and decoy runners to turn low-percentage scoring opportunities into high-percentage ones.

The other thing with Dyche and Wilder is that they are excellent communicators, who are brilliant at conveying to players, and supporters, precisely what their team stand for. Speaking last month, Aidy Boothroyd, the England Under-21 manager, nutshelled the magic of Dyche’s Burnley in six words: “You know exactly what they are.” At a time when so many of the Premier League’s better-resourced teams — Arsenal, Everton, West Ham United — are indistinct ghost ships with no compelling USP and only a tenuous grip on their fans’ imaginations, the value of being able to construct a pin-sharp identity has never been clearer.

You can’t really talk about Burnley or Sheffield United’s identity without talking about their unusual degree of national homogeneity. Plainly, such a pronounced anglophone bias is unlikely to be coincidental, and that lack of diversity has uncomfortable connotations. In their squad construction, Dyche and Wilder are playing on clarity of communication — in a polyglot league, can you gain an edge by minimising the language barriers through which your message is refracted? — and also on historical precedent. Look up the Burnley or Sheffield United squads on Wikipedia, look down the column of flags by each name and you could almost be looking at one of the all-conquering Liverpool or Nottingham Forest teams of the 1970s or 80s.

In a lot of what these two managers do, there are echoes of another time and place in British life. Wilder was raised in Stocksbridge, ten miles from Sheffield, by working-class Liverpudlian parents; Dyche’s mother worked in a shoe factory in Kettering. “I have an affinity with shoes because I grew up where I did and even as a kid I always had hand-made leather shoes, so it’s an appreciation,” he told the Lancashire Telegraph in 2014. “Then a pair of shoes would last 20 years.” You can see the imprint of these values in the way that Dyche and Wilder coach, I think: an emphasis on craftsmanship and industry at a time when the drift in football coaching is towards automation and almost robotic synchrony.

Of course, the million-dollar question with Dyche and Wilder is whether they could succeed in a bigger job. Take them out of their environment, and put them in charge of a huge budget, a multinational squad, a global fanbase with certain stylistic expectations, and could they still excel? It is hard to imagine — for some reason, they just don’t feel like Arsenal or Manchester United managers, say.

But then again, all those same doubts applied in December 2017 when Ajax appointed Erik ten Hag, a coach with a journeyman playing background, an unfashionable regional accent and an aversion to soaring rhetoric, who might easily have seemed too small-town and too small-time for such an iconic post. Two years on, Ten Hag is established as one of the best coaches in European football. An elite coach does not always look or sound how we may expect. We wonder whether Dyche or Wilder can make the jump; but perhaps the leap is ours to make.

jrgbfc
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Re: Sean Dyche and Chris Wilder

Post by jrgbfc » Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:15 am

Wilder has already shown far greater flexibility and tactical nous than Dyche.

TVC15
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Re: Sean Dyche and Chris Wilder

Post by TVC15 » Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:28 am

jrgbfc wrote:Wilder has already shown far greater flexibility and tactical nous than Dyche.
Of course he has - he’s been doing it for a full 12 weeks. We get it - you think he’s a better manager than Dyche. But then again you think everyone is better than SD.

Out of interest what other way of playing / “far greater flexibility” have you seen Wilder adopt than the tactics he played yesterday ?
Just post the links for the games....should be easy enough given your post and your in depth knowledge of Wilder.
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Re: Sean Dyche and Chris Wilder

Post by BOYSIE31 » Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:00 am

Should be dyche ringing wilder in future

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Re: Sean Dyche and Chris Wilder

Post by Steve1956 » Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:03 am

BOYSIE31 wrote:Should be dyche ringing wilder in future
Wilder's bubble will burst,just like Holloway's did at Blackpool,I still think they will struggle to stay up.

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Re: Sean Dyche and Chris Wilder

Post by tim_noone » Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:06 am

jrgbfc wrote:Wilder has already shown far greater flexibility and tactical nous than Dyche.
One swallow doesn't make a summer....

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Re: Sean Dyche and Chris Wilder

Post by jrgbfc » Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:07 am

Steve1956 wrote:Wilder's bubble will burst,just like Holloway's did at Blackpool,I still think they will struggle to stay up.
Wilder has far more about him than Holloway, he's been a massive success every club he's been at.

TVC15
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Re: Sean Dyche and Chris Wilder

Post by TVC15 » Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:08 am

tim_noone wrote:One swallow doesn't make a summer....
Tell Donna that

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Re: Sean Dyche and Chris Wilder

Post by tim_noone » Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:09 am

TVC15 wrote:Tell Donna that
She's in Dallas.. ;)

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Re: Sean Dyche and Chris Wilder

Post by tim_noone » Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:10 am

BOYSIE31 wrote:Should be dyche ringing wilder in future
Possibly next April.

TVC15
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Re: Sean Dyche and Chris Wilder

Post by TVC15 » Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:10 am

tim_noone wrote:She's in Dallas.. ;)
Is that not Debbie

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Re: Sean Dyche and Chris Wilder

Post by tim_noone » Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:12 am

TVC15 wrote:Is that not Debbie
:lol: :lol: yes! Who's Donna?

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Re: Sean Dyche and Chris Wilder

Post by taio » Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:12 am

jrgbfc wrote:Wilder has already shown far greater flexibility and tactical nous than Dyche.
We read some absolute shite on this messageboard at times but this is right up there.
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TVC15
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Re: Sean Dyche and Chris Wilder

Post by TVC15 » Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:15 am

tim_noone wrote::lol: :lol: yes! Who's Donna?
Donna Summer !
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Re: Sean Dyche and Chris Wilder

Post by Spijed » Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:15 am

jrgbfc wrote:Wilder has already shown far greater flexibility and tactical nous than Dyche.
Ever since SD became our manager why have you had a completely negative attitude towards him?

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Re: Sean Dyche and Chris Wilder

Post by Blyclaret » Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:21 am

Dyche was out thought out fought in every department.
His one trick pony tactics are wearing very thin.

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Re: Sean Dyche and Chris Wilder

Post by tim_noone » Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:25 am

Blyclaret wrote:Dyche was out thought out fought in every department.
His one trick pony tactics are wearing very thin.
:lol: :lol:

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Re: Sean Dyche and Chris Wilder

Post by jrgbfc » Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:37 am

Spijed wrote:Ever since SD became our manager why have you had a completely negative attitude towards him?
I haven't. Our first promotion season under him we played some great football. Since then our flair players have gradually been replaced by grafters/workhorse and our main game plan now seems to be aimless punts up to Ashley Barnes in the hope of winning cheap free kicks.
I don't think theres anything wrong with wanting to see your team at least try and play a bit of football.

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Re: Sean Dyche and Chris Wilder

Post by Wile E Coyote » Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:59 am

wilder will be a flash in the pan manager, probably a nice enough bloke, but there can be no comparison unless he somehow manages to maintain their status for several seasons in the top flight.

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Re: Sean Dyche and Chris Wilder

Post by DomBFC1882 » Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:02 pm

jrgbfc wrote:I haven't. Our first promotion season under him we played some great football. Since then our flair players have gradually been replaced by grafters/workhorse and our main game plan now seems to be aimless punts up to Ashley Barnes in the hope of winning cheap free kicks.
I don't think theres anything wrong with wanting to see your team at least try and play a bit of football.
Just out of interest, who did you class as flair players back then?

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Re: Sean Dyche and Chris Wilder

Post by MACCA » Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:05 pm

jrgbfc wrote:I haven't. Our first promotion season under him we played some great football. Since then our flair players have gradually been replaced by grafters/workhorse and our main game plan now seems to be aimless punts up to Ashley Barnes in the hope of winning cheap free kicks.
I don't think theres anything wrong with wanting to see your team at least try and play a bit of football.
I cant remember many flair players to be honest.
Quality yes, flair certainly not IMO.

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Re: Sean Dyche and Chris Wilder

Post by jrgbfc » Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:14 pm

DomBFC1882 wrote:Just out of interest, who did you class as flair players back then?
OK maybe not flair as in a Glen Little or Robbie Blake, but I'd say Ings, Trippier and Stanislas were all great players to watch.

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Re: Sean Dyche and Chris Wilder

Post by scouseclaret » Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:15 pm

Blyclaret wrote:Dyche was out thought out fought in every department.
His one trick pony tactics are wearing very thin.
One trick that has secured two automatic promotions and four consecutive seasons in the Premier League?
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Re: Sean Dyche and Chris Wilder

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:21 pm

Wile E Coyote wrote:wilder will be a flash in the pan manager, probably a nice enough bloke, but there can be no comparison unless he somehow manages to maintain their status for several seasons in the top flight.
Wilder has not reached anywhere near the level of Dyche yet and may never do so but he has spent years working up though the different levels of English football with great success.

Taking on Sheff Utd in League One and winning the league with 100pts in his first season followed by automatic promotion to the Prem League 2 years later is an a par with Dyche getting Burnley promoted. Whether Wilder can sustain it like Dyche has done is another thing all together.

Whatever you think of Wilder one thing he certainly isnt is a flash in the pan manager
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Re: Sean Dyche and Chris Wilder

Post by Hibsclaret » Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:26 pm

Wilder has done well so far.

Dyche is bordering on being a genius...that’s the difference...

Even Einstein had off days
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Re: Sean Dyche and Chris Wilder

Post by jrgbfc » Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:36 pm

Wile E Coyote wrote:wilder will be a flash in the pan manager, probably a nice enough bloke, but there can be no comparison unless he somehow manages to maintain their status for several seasons in the top flight.
You don't take a team from struggling in League 1 all the way to the Prem unless you have something about you.
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Re: Sean Dyche and Chris Wilder

Post by Jakubs Tash » Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:47 pm

For what it's worth, I think Chris Wilder is an excellent manager. He's done brilliantly at Sheff Utd and Northampton before that.

I also used the phrase 'out fought and out thought' (as someone else did above) about yesterday. I think we were. And when we play poorly we look extremely one dimensional and lacking in ideas.

However, this thread is clearly giving the few supporters who don't like Dyche or his 'style of play' an opportunity to lay into him.

In my opinion, most of you are talking rubbish. Without Dyche we'd be a lower end Championship team at best. If we win next week, we could go level on points with Brighton who are apparently having a great season....

We got beat yesterday by a team that came out the traps fast and were better than us. Get over it and grow up.

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Re: Sean Dyche and Chris Wilder

Post by beddie » Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:58 pm

Chris Wilde is doing a very good job at SU. We all heard how honest Sean was on MOTD. I imagine he will have earmarked that game to get something from so the manner in which we lost it will have disappointed him, probably to the point where he'll make a number of changes for the next game.
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Re: Sean Dyche and Chris Wilder

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:04 pm

jrgbfc wrote:You don't take a team from struggling in League 1 all the way to the Prem unless you have something about you.
He's not the first manager to do it, nor will he be the last.

Getting to the PL and staying in it for a period of time will be the benchmark to judge him on though.

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Re: Sean Dyche and Chris Wilder

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:05 pm

scouseclaret wrote:One trick that has secured two automatic promotions and four consecutive seasons in the Premier League?
Numerous managers would love to have one trick like that.

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Re: Sean Dyche and Chris Wilder

Post by FactualFrank » Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:05 pm

He's clearly an excellent manager.

A manager who takes a team from having not much of a future, to the Premier League has to gain respect. Martin O'Neil did a similar thing in lower divisions and keep an eye on Danny Cowley. He'll be managing in the Premier League.
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Re: Sean Dyche and Chris Wilder

Post by tiger76 » Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:46 pm

Jakubs Tash wrote:For what it's worth, I think Chris Wilder is an excellent manager. He's done brilliantly at Sheff Utd and Northampton before that.

I also used the phrase 'out fought and out thought' (as someone else did above) about yesterday. I think we were. And when we play poorly we look extremely one dimensional and lacking in ideas.

However, this thread is clearly giving the few supporters who don't like Dyche or his 'style of play' an opportunity to lay into him.

In my opinion, most of you are talking rubbish. Without Dyche we'd be a lower end Championship team at best. If we win next week, we could go level on points with Brighton who are apparently having a great season....

We got beat yesterday by a team that came out the traps fast and were better than us. Get over it and grow up.
Excellent summary JT,sure we were poor yesterday but every team can have a stinker,some of the hysteria is comical on this forum,calling for the manager's head well having no idea who'd do a better job,our next 2 games are West Ham at home,followed by a trip to Watford who can't buy a win,what's to say we won't collect 6 points from those fixtures,if that proves to be the case the moaners will quickly disappear.

Yes we've lost 3 in a row,prior to that we amassed 8 points from a possible 12,and went 4 unbeaten,the nature of this league is outwith a handful of teams,there will be peaks and troughs for the rest,to put the season into perspective we are a point behind Man U and Tottenham,and above Everton.

Most sensible people would accept finishing 14th which we currently are,with the resources at our disposal.

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Re: Sean Dyche and Chris Wilder

Post by tim_noone » Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:00 pm

tiger76 wrote:Excellent summary JT,sure we were poor yesterday but every team can have a stinker,some of the hysteria is comical on this forum,calling for the manager's head well having no idea who'd do a better job,our next 2 games are West Ham at home,followed by a trip to Watford who can't buy a win,what's to say we won't collect 6 points from those fixtures,if that proves to be the case the moaners will quickly disappear.

Yes we've lost 3 in a row,prior to that we amassed 8 points from a possible 12,and went 4 unbeaten,the nature of this league is outwith a handful of teams,there will be peaks and troughs for the rest,to put the season into perspective we are a point behind Man U and Tottenham,and above Everton.

Most sensible people would accept finishing 14th which we currently are,with the resources at our disposal.
A point behind man utd and spurs and some Burnley "fans" are crying :lol:

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Re: Sean Dyche and Chris Wilder

Post by IanMcL » Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:47 pm

We are so very lucky.
Having lived through the bad times, Sean Dyche is a God.

Mr Wilder has done for Sheffield Utd, what others have failed.

Both deserve huge respect.

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Re: Sean Dyche and Chris Wilder

Post by HunterST_BFC » Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:19 pm

I never thought I'd ever see BFC in the top division in my life time.
Let alone in europe.
I'd been offered countless "free's" to watch Man U by a friend who holds season tickets there. I always declined saying "only when we make it there", so having seen 4th to 2nd tier the Man U away was a landmark game - top tier.
I thought we'd last a year.
Sean Dyche and Chris Wilder are perfect fits for both clubs and both have done brilliantly + both are very likeable for being straight talking.
Both have earned respect despite having to manage against teams with stupidly higher budgets.
What's not to like?

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