Are we going to have to change to 3-5-2 ?

FCBurnley · Post by **FCBurnley** » Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:18 pm

Having been torn to shreds yesterday by an average team playing 3-5-2will we be forced into changing from our current 4-4-2 system. If so do we have the players who can adapt quickly to such a change. Here is some idea of what our team would be
Pope
Gibson or Long. Tarks. Mee

Lowton or Brady 2 from (Cork Westy and Hendrick) McNeil. Taylor

Wood Barnes

Looks stronger to me providing the 2 wide midfielders can track back and get forward as well as the Sheffield U guys did yesterday

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:20 pm

I hope not.

taio · Post by **taio** » Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:20 pm

I'd stick with 442 because it has served us very well. May be a case for it at some point but don't need a knee jerk reaction just because of yesterday.

FCBurnley · Post by **FCBurnley** » Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:23 pm

4-4-2 does not work without Wood. That is for sure

Bordeauxclaret · Post by **Bordeauxclaret** » Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:24 pm

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:25 pm

FCBurnley wrote:4-4-2 does not work without Wood. That is for sure

I think we'd suit 4-4-1-1 with Vydra in place of JR.

SGr · Post by **SGr** » Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:26 pm

Not sure if anyone else remembers how much of an abject failure 3-5-2 was, but I do.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:27 pm

SGr wrote:Not sure if anyone else remembers how much of an abject failure 3-5-2 was, but I do.

I remember it happening. Was it friendlies?

FCBurnley · Post by **FCBurnley** » Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:29 pm

It is a great system if you have the right players to operate it. Do we ?

jrgbfc · Post by **jrgbfc** » Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:30 pm

Unless we were to sign someone capable of playing right wing back then no.

claretnproud · Post by **claretnproud** » Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:30 pm

We currently play
3 1/2
4
2
remember Lowton.

taio · Post by **taio** » Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:30 pm

SGr wrote:Not sure if anyone else remembers how much of an abject failure 3-5-2 was, but I do.

Yes, exemplified by the 5-1 defeat to Everton last season.

jrgbfc · Post by **jrgbfc** » Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:33 pm

taio wrote:Yes, exemplified by the 5-1 defeat to Everton last season.

Not sure that was solely down to the formation, we just didn't turn up. Should we drop the 442 because we got a spanking yesterday?

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:36 pm

jrgbfc wrote:Not sure that was solely down to the formation, we just didn't turn up. Should we drop the 442 because we got a spanking yesterday?

No.

FCBurnley · Post by **FCBurnley** » Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:36 pm

A fit Brady could replace Lowton in a 3-5-2

taio · Post by **taio** » Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:41 pm

jrgbfc wrote:Not sure that was solely down to the formation, we just didn't turn up. Should we drop the 442 because we got a spanking yesterday?

I agree it wasn't solely down to formation but it certainly was a key factor - our shape was all over the show. No we shouldn't drop 442 because of yesterday, particularly as it's tried and tested and we've been so successful playing that way, unlike 352.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:43 pm

FCBurnley wrote:A fit Brady could replace Lowton in a 3-5-2

Would you completely change the formation and ask players to change in such a way, during a season?

FCBurnley · Post by **FCBurnley** » Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:48 pm

FactualFrank wrote:Would you completely change the formation and ask players to change in such a way, during a season?

I would if we continued to ship goals as we have in last 2 games. However I would not play Lowton and Pieters in a 4-4-2 so Bardsley and Taylor would be first change

ksrclaret · Post by **ksrclaret** » Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:49 pm

A 3-5-2 can be an excellent way to set up, as demonstrated by Sheffield United yesterday.

I don't think we have the players to make it work though. Charlie Taylor could play a wing back role, but neither right back will be able to convert to a right wing back with any success.

Also, our midfielders and centre halves aren't comfortable enough receiving and dealing with the ball, which would leave us aiming long balls up to two isolated strikers with no wide support.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:49 pm

FCBurnley wrote:I would if we continued to ship goals as we have in last 2 games. However I would not play Lowton and Pieters in a 4-4-2 so Bardsley and Taylor would be first change

You have a point, but only if we were rock bottom and desperate. But we aren't. We can bring Taylor and Wood back in and we'll be so much better.

jrgbfc · Post by **jrgbfc** » Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:52 pm

ksrclaret wrote:A 3-5-2 can be an excellent way to set up, as demonstrated by Sheffield United yesterday.

I don't think we have the players to make it work though. Charlie Taylor could play a wing back role, but neither right back will be able to convert to a right wing back with any success.

Also, our midfielders and centre halves aren't comfortable enough receiving and dealing with the ball, which would leave us aiming long balls up to two isolated strikers with no wide support.

McNeil could play in the midfield 3, hes certainly good enough on the ball to provide a link to the forwards. I agree that we've no one capable of playing right wing back though.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:56 pm

jrgbfc wrote:McNeil could play in the midfield 3, hes certainly good enough on the ball to provide a link to the forwards. I agree that we've no one capable of playing right wing back though.

It would be a desperate formation change, but we aren't desperate.

If I was manager I would stick with the formation. Wood is surely back for the next game so it has to be 4-4-2. It's what the players know and it's not pre-season.

claretnproud · Post by **claretnproud** » Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:57 pm

Could Hendrick drop to RB if Drinkbeer could get fit and recapture form. Hendrick has tracked back into Lowtons position on most games this season.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:00 pm

claretnproud wrote:Could Hendrick drop to RB

Are you ClaretSpice in disguise?

Tricky Trevor · Post by **Tricky Trevor** » Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:22 pm

The difference between Blades 3 at the back and any 3 we could select there is that all 3 of theirs are comfortable to bring the ball out until closed down and then the space has been created for opportunities further forward.
None of our 4 CDs have this ability although Tarks clearly thinks he has. Is it a coincidence that our form drops every time he thinks he is Beckenbauer and starts getting caught on the ball or misplaces an easy or impossible pass. He is an excellent defender that should be his mantra. He showed Lowton his palm yesterday for give it back and his only option was launch it. Instead he dallies on the ball with two Blades in his face. Shocking.

claretnproud · Post by **claretnproud** » Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:26 pm

FactualFrank wrote:Are you ClaretSpice in disguise?

On the basis that he couldnt do any worse than Lowton.

ClaretAL · Post by **ClaretAL** » Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:05 pm

I brought the same idea up on another thread and I do think it had legs but I can't see Dyche changing from 442.

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SonofPog · Post by **SonofPog** » Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:43 pm

I would rather go 541, or 523, or 343, however you want to call it.

……………Wood / Barnes
......McNeil / Vydra Jay Rod

........Westwood Hendricks

Taylor ……………………………….. Bardsley
...…...Mee Gibson Tarks

Give the two AMs license to drift wide, but also get them close to the forward. If struggling they'll need to follow the full backs or help out in the middle, wherever we're outnumbered.

I've put McNeil / Vydra as I feel McNeil needs a rest.

KlyBfc · Post by **KlyBfc** » Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:08 am

IMO - We don’t have the players with the qualities to play 3-5-2 as that horror show v Everton showed last season. Also don’t under estimate the work that Sheff Utd have done. the reason sheff Utd are excellent at it is Wilder has drilled them into that shape and he has recruited players for that shape all over a number of seasons , we haven’t and can’t expect it to work at premier league level with what we have in a short space of time.

We do have players that can play 4-5-1 /4-3-3 as well as 4-4-2 and that’s where our flexibility needs to come from and be utilised against some sides.

SalisburyClaret · Post by **SalisburyClaret** » Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:34 am

4-5-1 is the more likely formation change

We should also bear in mind that Sheff U’s players looked a lot fitter than ours. They were able to get forward far quicker often having 7 or 8 players in attacking positions. They made their formation look fluid rather than our rigid framework

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:19 am

I would prefer 4 5 4 with all subs on from the start.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:26 am

SalisburyClaret wrote:We should also bear in mind that Sheff U’s players looked a lot fitter than ours

They were better than us on the day, but I'm not having it that they looked fitter than our players at all.

As for are we going to have to change to 3-5-2? I really can't think why but I would possibly be inclined to go back to what was very successful two years ago with Hendrick behind the one striker in a 4-4-1-1.

jrgbfc · Post by **jrgbfc** » Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:35 am

ClaretTony wrote:They were better than us on the day, but I'm not having it that they looked fitter than our players at all.

As for are we going to have to change to 3-5-2? I really can't think why but I would possibly be inclined to go back to what was very successful two years ago with Hendrick behind the one striker in a 4-4-1-1.

It's not a bad shout, but who goes upfront? For me Wood is our best striker by a mile and biggest goal threat but I don't think he's ever looked comfortable or happy playing the lone striker role.

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:36 am

It was a one off.

Win next week and all well for the break.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:44 am

IanMcL wrote:It was a one off.

Win next week and all well for the break.

We hope it was a one off. It's our first really disappointing performance all season and doesn't warrant any over reaction to be honest.

Tricky Trevor · Post by **Tricky Trevor** » Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:51 am

ClaretTony wrote:We hope it was a one off. It's our first really disappointing performance all season and doesn't warrant any over reaction to be honest.

We throw a couple of these in a season. Usually bounce back stronger.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:04 pm

We've had one bad result this season. That was Saturday, and seemingly the performance was equally lamentable, but still - one bad result.

Other than that, we've drawn the games from which a point would be a good result, and won the games we'd have targeted to win. The four games we'd previously lost are all against teams currently sat in the top 5, and who look the most likely ones to thrash out the Champions League spots.

So a bit of perspective needed. Swapping to a formation we last tried with disastrous results against Everton strikes me as a really, really daft move in that context. We've taken virtually 40 points from the 30 or so games since that disaster, playing with a back 4.

BOYSIE31 · Post by **BOYSIE31** » Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:09 pm

claretspice wrote:We've had one bad result this season. That was Saturday, and seemingly the performance was equally lamentable, but still - one bad result.

Other than that, we've drawn the games from which a point would be a good result, and won the games we'd have targeted to win. The four games we'd previously lost are all against teams currently sat in the top 5, and who look the most likely ones to thrash out the Champions League spots.

So a bit of perspective needed. Swapping to a formation we last tried with disastrous results against Everton strikes me as a really, really daft move in that context. We've taken virtually 40 points from the 30 or so games since that disaster, playing with a back 4.

But this back four has been littered with mistakes this season

Bullabill · Post by **Bullabill** » Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:10 pm

We won the first div. title playing 2-3-5.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:12 pm

I hope it was a one off but I also fear this performance has been coming for a while now.
We have made a lot of mistakes in the last 2 games especially. When you look at the Chelsea goal where Tarks gives the ball away if you remember Ben Mee gave the ball away in a similar fashion twice in a row just before Tarky did. Bearing in mind how close we were to half time, the importance of getting in just one down and also how we had lost the first goal in this game I have no idea what was going through the mind of Tarks or Mee - they should have been launching the ball and clearing their lines.
Saturday we could have easily been beaten by 5 or 6 goals.

But we have been here plenty of times before and there is a lot more evidence that our team bounces back than all of a sudden we are a bad team. If I was to pick a team to play against this week West Ham would be pretty high up on the list (though in their bad form they might say the same about us).
It’s not a must win game by any means but it is probably a time to change things up player wise - change both full backs, possibly change the midfield and one of the forward line too. We need to get playing better again soon and pick up points from the next 3 games before we play City and Spurs.

dougcollins · Post by **dougcollins** » Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:24 pm

I would have gone 4-5-1 as soon as Wood was out. Hendrick back in the middle.
It's not negative if you play it right.

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:34 pm

We needed to play 5-5-5 Saturday.

It was on of them games where we didn't turn up, and were poor - rank bad from 1-11.
The result showed it, and SD felt the need to speak about it, which he never really does.

It's very hard to win away in this league anyway, I think the boys deserve a crack at putting it right, and the next 3 games are possibly the best 3 game run we could ask for to pick up points.

Let's see where we are on the 1st of December before doing anything drastic.

CoolClaret · Post by **CoolClaret** » Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:38 pm

Some ludicrous suggestions in here my lord.

Only system I want to see -

4-3-3

Bardo-Tarky-Mee-Taylor
---------------Westwood
---------Hendrick-----McNeil
JayRod/JBG-------------Barnes
-------------------Wood

ClaretAL · Post by **ClaretAL** » Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:42 pm

ClaretTony wrote:They were better than us on the day, but I'm not having it that they looked fitter than our players at all.

As for are we going to have to change to 3-5-2? I really can't think why but I would possibly be inclined to go back to what was very successful two years ago with Hendrick behind the one striker in a 4-4-1-1.

I think the problem we have CT is most teams are now playing that formation and we get outnumbered and overrun in an are of the pitch we know is not out most strongest positions. This in turn means we get pinned back and our defence has got to be unbelievably strong and organised, which it usually is, but when they are average or have an off day we get punished way too easily. Just my opinion and not a professional one by any means.

BOYSIE31 · Post by **BOYSIE31** » Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:51 pm

ksrclaret wrote:A 3-5-2 can be an excellent way to set up, as demonstrated by Sheffield United yesterday.

I don't think we have the players to make it work though. Charlie Taylor could play a wing back role, but neither right back will be able to convert to a right wing back with any success.

Also, our midfielders and centre halves aren't comfortable enough receiving and dealing with the ball, which would leave us aiming long balls up to two isolated strikers with no wide support.

We did that all game saturday so whats the difference

BOYSIE31 · Post by **BOYSIE31** » Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:53 pm

Hard to see why Gibson cannot be given a chance this saturday but if its Tarks and Mee again which is very likley then we might as well just sell him in january and see what we can get back in fees

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:09 pm

ClaretAL wrote:I think the problem we have CT is most teams are now playing that formation and we get outnumbered and overrun in an are of the pitch we know is not out most strongest positions. This in turn means we get pinned back and our defence has got to be unbelievably strong and organised, which it usually is, but when they are average or have an off day we get punished way too easily. Just my opinion and not a professional one by any means.

One bad performance - not most teams playing it. The problem is the ridiculous overreaction to one poor performance. You would think we are about to go down.

ClaretAL · Post by **ClaretAL** » Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:22 pm

ClaretTony wrote:One bad performance - not most teams playing it. The problem is the ridiculous overreaction to one poor performance. You would think we are about to go down.

I'm not basing it one poor performance so please don't be so pedantic. Im basing it on a view from watching our team struggle when we get out numbered in midfield as a whole, and the reason for that is down to formation. Usually our defence counters this, and as strong as they are, they are going to have a purple patch. I think the goals Chelsea scored against us were also soft goals, again due to having to defend on our 18 yard line pinned back because we were overrun in midfield. And before you point to the class of the Chelsea team, I agree, and they are turning everyone over at the minute, but the goals we conceded were soft to our standards which Dyche also agreed with.

Sometime I'm not sure why you get so upset when people have a different opinion to you. It was the same when i mentioned Taylor was the better than Pieters, it just an opinion, it not berating anyone or the team its just an opinion.

BOYSIE31 · Post by **BOYSIE31** » Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:28 pm

ClaretTony wrote:One bad performance - not most teams playing it. The problem is the ridiculous overreaction to one poor performance. You would think we are about to go down.

I agree overall one bad performance but this has been coming from previous performances with soft soft goals conceded

SalisburyClaret · Post by **SalisburyClaret** » Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:30 pm

ClaretTony wrote:They were better than us on the day, but I'm not having it that they looked fitter than our players at all.

As for are we going to have to change to 3-5-2? I really can't think why but I would possibly be inclined to go back to what was very successful two years ago with Hendrick behind the one striker in a 4-4-1-1.

As for who was fitter - only one team was closing down, getting numbers forward and easily able to recover when they did - Maybe it was tactical but no clean sheets away from home since January means we have to make changes, a midfield 5 would certainly help prevent us getting overun like we were on Saturday