Facts About the NHS

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HieronymousBoschHobs
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Facts About the NHS

Post by HieronymousBoschHobs » Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:45 am

The Tories have been planning the privatisation of the health service for a long time. Here is a summary of a somewhat technical, but highly informative and well-research article, from the London Review of Books:

'In his report to the Conservative Party’s Economic Reconstruction Group in 1977, Nicholas Ridley wrote that

denationalisation should not be attempted by frontal attack but by preparation for return to the private sector by stealth. We should first pass legislation to destroy the public sector monopolies. We might also need to take power to sell assets. Secondly, we should fragment the industries as far as possible and set up the units as separate profit centres.
'

In 2012, the Tories put the NHS under the charge of one Simon Stevens - former CEO of the US for-profit healthcare company United Health. His mission? Cut costs, and hence increase profits, by reducing access to care - a long-term strategy of private healthcare operators in the States.

He was the right man for the job, at least in the eyes of the Conservatives: 'Hospital beds have been progressively cut: the UK’s bed-to-patient ratio is now one of the lowest in any developed country. Accident and emergency departments, which not only require expensive equipment and high numbers of staff but also take the brunt of social care failings, are in the process of being cut from 144 to about fifty. GP care is increasingly provided by ‘physician associates’, nurse practitioners and pharmacists, while patients are exhorted to use privately owned, profit-making online and app consultancies such as Doctaly, GP at Hand and myGP. Opening up new markets for US tech giants is a key factor in the reconfiguration of the NHS.

Proponents of privatisation might argue these measures are necessary because the spiralling costs of the NHS must be kept under-control. However, these policies are not cost-effective:

'Private companies, with their increased overheads, higher rates of borrowing and shareholder dividends, are inherently more costly to the public than state-funded services. Less obvious are the high costs of management and administration involved in franchising and marketing services. In the US these are estimated to account for more than 30 per cent of the $3.6 trillion spent on healthcare. A 2010 report commissioned by the Department of Health estimated management and administration costs at 14 per cent of total NHS spending, more than twice the figure in 1990. '

For-profit healthcare providers, most based in the US, seem to be doing very well out of the Conservative's reforms:

'At the 2012 World Economic Forum, Stevens [head of NHS England] led proposals to replace public healthcare systems... His collaborators included Medtronic, the world’s largest producer of medical devices (a US company based in Ireland for tax purposes), Qualcomm Life, which designs medical technology, and Kaiser. Since his arrival at NHS England, the influence of such companies has grown: IBM is now a lead supplier of IT; Optum runs GP referrals services and is in a partnership with the second largest GP federation, Modality. The UK’s largest GP network, the Practice Group, is owned by the American company Centene... NHS property and land assets worth £10 billion are being sold to private developers. '

Worst of all, this has all been done behind the backs of the British public:

'The fragmentation of a once fully integrated service into competing and commercially-driven units is well advanced and has been accomplished without proper public scrutiny, knowledge, consent or appropriate Parliamentary legislation. Successive governments have been assisted by the failure of the media to recognise the overall shape of the project and sufficiently analyse the disparate changes.'

John Furse - The NHS Dismantled
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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by tarkys_ears » Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:47 am

Could always vote labour... You'll never need to worry about the NHS again!
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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by Colburn_Claret » Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:16 am

I dont believe the Tories are stupid enough to think that privatising the NHS is a vote winner, so although I'm sure there are some grubby little men, rubbing their grubby little hands together at the prospect, One Nation Tories would never allow it.
But it does make a good headline for the opposition.

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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by Inchy » Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:06 am

Unfortunately the NHS has been sleepwalking into privatisation for years. New Labour were at it a lot, although it’s impossible to compare a Blair Labour Party to a Corbyn one.

At my trust the patient pharmacy is run by boots, the main cancer building is an expensive PFI, the procurement department is soon to be a subsidiary, there is a threat that domestic services are privatised, on any given night up to a third of all HCA staff are from an agency due to lack of NHS staff. Theres more. Many NHS surgery’s are outsourced to the Nuffield because there are not the beds to do them in the NHS. Joke is it’s the same surgeons and often the same theatre staff just working bank overtime.

If the yanks get their hands on the pharmaceutical industry over here it will be a massive leap into privatisation as it will be a matter of time before the NHS is bankrupt if that happens
Last edited by Inchy on Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by Inchy » Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:12 am

The tories policy to discourage anyone going into a career in healthcare has really not helped. Scrapping nursing bursaries when nursing vacancies were already through the roof was IMO a policy done solely to assist the NHS in its demise. The cost of the bursaries to the national coffers was minimal.

Many nurses now work agency to get more money due to an 8 year pay freeze. Agencies charge a fortune. When I worked in ICU I could be looking after a patient one day for the NHS, and the next day I’d be doing an agency shift looking after the same patient but earnings 3 times as much. I wonder if any politicians have business involvement with healthcare agencies?

If they paid nurses a competitive wage and made it easier to become a nurse financially then the NHS wouldn’t need to rely on agencies

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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by Rick_Muller » Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:17 am

Privatisation has already occurred. If I go for a blood test, I go to a Virgin Healthcare clinic which resides inside my local hospital. It was given the building for free and granted the contract to do blood tests and other supporting functions such as pre op assessments. They charge the NHS for their services and can generally charge what they like.

If I need physio, I have to get referred to another company who again charge the NHS what they like.

Most of the services that make up the NHS are now in the control of private firms WHO CAN CHARGE WHAT THEY LIKE.

It will get worse if BoJo gets to deal with the US because one area that is strictly controlled is the pharmaceutical industry, who cannot currently charge what they like, they have caps on the costs of drugs. The drug I have which gives me a moderate standard of living costs £3000-£4000 every 8 weeks ( I think it only costs approx £100 to make, but I agree that is misleading because you also pay for the research and development of the drug) in the US it costs 10-20 times that amount - if you have insurance most of that is covered if you don’t you can’t get it unless you’re very rich.

It stinks people, and I am really p!ssed off that many people don’t actually get it.

EDIT - as confirmed by Inchy above as well.

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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by Bordeauxclaret » Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:22 am

Colburn_Claret wrote:I dont believe the Tories are stupid enough to think that privatising the NHS is a vote winner, so although I'm sure there are some grubby little men, rubbing their grubby little hands together at the prospect, One Nation Tories would never allow it.
But it does make a good headline for the opposition.
The good news is that if they say it’s not for sale you can take their word to the bank.

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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by Jakubclaret » Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:32 am

Rick_Muller wrote:Privatisation has already occurred. If I go for a blood test, I go to a Virgin Healthcare clinic which resides inside my local hospital. It was given the building for free and granted the contract to do blood tests and other supporting functions such as pre op assessments. They charge the NHS for their services and can generally charge what they like.

If I need physio, I have to get referred to another company who again charge the NHS what they like.

Most of the services that make up the NHS are now in the control of private firms WHO CAN CHARGE WHAT THEY LIKE.

It will get worse if BoJo gets to deal with the US because one area that is strictly controlled is the pharmaceutical industry, who cannot currently charge what they like, they have caps on the costs of drugs. The drug I have which gives me a moderate standard of living costs £3000-£4000 every 8 weeks ( I think it only costs approx £100 to make, but I agree that is misleading because you also pay for the research and development of the drug) in the US it costs 10-20 times that amount - if you have insurance most of that is covered if you don’t you can’t get it unless you’re very rich.

It stinks people, and I am really p!ssed off that many people don’t actually get it.

EDIT - as confirmed by Inchy above as well.
It's likely though, once the drug as been approved the cost of research & development stops or seriously reduces, I think it's used as an excuse to overcharge, I get the point to reach the point of approval you need to factor in them costs but it's not a cost which should continue to rise, specifically drug to drug the testing, research ect, should be finished pre approval & the cost cemented by then set at a reasonable level.

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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by jojomk1 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:35 am

tarkys_ears wrote:Could always vote labour... You'll never need to worry about the NHS again!
Labour will re-nationalise everything

Wouldn't be surprised to see on their manifesto that all the mines will be reopened

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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by Inchy » Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:42 am

jojomk1 wrote:Labour will re-nationalise everything

Wouldn't be surprised to see on their manifesto that all the mines will be reopened

You can be as flippant as you like with this discussion. It’s all fun and games until it happens and you or someone you love require a free at the point of use health service, which may no longer exist.

Labour under Corbyn are far from perfect, and very far from likeable. However you simply cannot trust the NHS with the Tories.

The tories got in whist I was doing my nurse training. I have seen first hand the differences between a labour run NHS (and a right leaning labour at that) and a Tory run nhs
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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by CardyTheClaret » Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:53 am

Inchy wrote:You can be as flippant as you like with this discussion. It’s all fun and games until it happens and you or someone you love require a free at the point of use health service, which may no longer exist.

Labour under Corbyn are far from perfect, and very far from likeable. However you simply cannot trust the NHS with the Tories.

The tories got in whist I was doing my nurse training. I have seen first hand the differences between a labour run NHS (and a right leaning labour at that) and a Tory run nhs
Me too.....I’ve had two relatives die as a result of having to travel to Blackburn, thanks to Andy Burnham and the last Labour government.

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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by Rick_Muller » Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:16 am

CardyTheClaret wrote:Me too.....I’ve had two relatives die as a result of having to travel to Blackburn, thanks to Andy Burnham and the last Labour government.
Ahhh that old chestnut of deflecting away from the current Tory government who would sell their souls to the devil to make sure they retain power by making a statement about an old "New Labour" government who was in fact closer to a Tory standpoint than a traditional Labour standpoint, of which Jeremy Corbyn is now promoting.

I am sorry for your loss, as a result of changes to NHS services. I am still here, but I fear for my own life if the Tories get in
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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:25 am

I worked in the NHS as we switched from a Lab Gov to a Conservative Govt.

There was a lot of **** taking going on (one ward had all its staff nurses off at the same time) so it needed tightening up.

But within two years, my department was down to the barest minimum, with essentially no cover for holidays and sickness.

The amount of work we had to do doubled and trebled (no problem for me because I'd come from the private sector but a real issue for my work colleagues who'd never experienced non-NHS work)

And we were constantly told "you have to keep the costs down"

As we were the suppliers and orders of the wards basic medical equipment, that meant that a Band 3 with no medical experience was essentially undercutting the supply demands of a ward manager.

That was about seven years ago, and what I've heard its got a lot worse since.

Regarding the point about the A & Es

Its a good idea to have super hospitals in regional hubs with all you need, but that can't include A & E services.

But like cutting firemen and fire stations because its cheaper to run, the actual consequences are people dying.

Thats the reality.
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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by wickdkewlclaret » Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:35 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:I worked in the NHS as we switched from a Lab Gov to a Conservative Govt.

There was a lot of **** taking going on (one ward had all its staff nurses off at the same time) so it needed tightening up.

But within two years, my department was down to the barest minimum, with essentially no cover for holidays and sickness.

The amount of work we had to do doubled and trebled (no problem for me because I'd come from the private sector but a real issue for my work colleagues who'd never experienced non-NHS work)

And we were constantly told "you have to keep the costs down"

As we were the suppliers and orders of the wards basic medical equipment, that meant that a Band 3 with no medical experience was essentially undercutting the supply demands of a ward manager.

That was about seven years ago, and what I've heard its got a lot worse since.

Regarding the point about the A & Es

Its a good idea to have super hospitals in regional hubs with all you need, but that can't include A & E services.

But like cutting firemen and fire stations because its cheaper to run, the actual consequences are people dying.

Thats the reality.
The stories and case studies are all there, it’s a shame the public choose to keep there head in sand and vote conservative. (Because they don’t like Corbyn, ********)

Forget any other policy I believe this is the greatest reason to vote for a party that will safeguard our greatest asset.

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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by CardyTheClaret » Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:36 am

Rick_Muller wrote:Ahhh that old chestnut of deflecting away from the current Tory government who would sell their souls to the devil to make sure they retain power by making a statement about an old "New Labour" government who was in fact closer to a Tory standpoint than a traditional Labour standpoint, of which Jeremy Corbyn is now promoting.

I am sorry for your loss, as a result of changes to NHS services. I am still here, but I fear for my own life if the Tories get in
I’m not deflecting anything. Just pointing out that all political parties are full of shite. If you honestly think that a Labour government would magically turn around the NHS then you are just kidding yourself.
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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by Rick_Muller » Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:41 am

The problem as I see it is that you cant actually run a service of any kind whilst having a focus on cost reduction - it just doesn't work. You have to run a service as a service and accept that there will be losses due to misuse of that service because some people are only in it for themselves. Unfortunately the amount of people who are in it for themselves has massively increased recently because they have been influenced by propaganda that has been lying to them (see other thread regarding immigration).

As soon as you introduce any form of cost reduction policy in any organisation the first thing that goes by the wayside is quality whether that is making cars; producing food; or providing a service.

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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by Rick_Muller » Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:45 am

CardyTheClaret wrote:I’m not deflecting anything. Just pointing out that all political parties are full of shite. If you honestly think that a Labour government would magically turn around the NHS then you are just kidding yourself.
Your absolutely right I dont believe that any Labour government will be able to turn it around but not because they wont try, but because the task is almost impossible due to the fact that the NHS is already using private services on long term contracts that go beyond a term of government. But the fight has to start somewhere... and I did say almost impossible. We have to try. We cant lay down and let the Tories sell us off to US corporations.
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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by wickdkewlclaret » Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:55 am

CardyTheClaret wrote:I’m not deflecting anything. Just pointing out that all political parties are full of shite. If you honestly think that a Labour government would magically turn around the NHS then you are just kidding yourself.
No, but it might give it the best chance. The direction Labour want to go with it is far more beneficial to you and me than what the stories want to do with it.

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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by Acting Claret » Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:58 am

PFI and Trusts have done the NHS

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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by Rick_Muller » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:01 am

Jakubclaret wrote:It's likely though, once the drug as been approved the cost of research & development stops or seriously reduces, I think it's used as an excuse to overcharge, I get the point to reach the point of approval you need to factor in them costs but it's not a cost which should continue to rise, specifically drug to drug the testing, research ect, should be finished pre approval & the cost cemented by then set at a reasonable level.
The specific drug I am on is now issued under licence and the cost has already been reduced. The point is that the NHS currently has a control of the costs of the drugs because there is a cap on the costs, if the US want trade deals this removal of this cap on pharmaceuticals is one of their key requirements.

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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by Sproggy » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:07 am

Labour offered GPs a gold-plated contract with big pay increases that allowed most of them to abandon emergency cover.

The number of NHS managers doubled under the last Labour government.

Labour spent £10bn on a patient records system which never went live.

1997 - Labour's magical solution to under-investment in NHS infrastructure - PFI. The total bill for NHS PFI hospitals will be £80bn, vs. build costs of £12bn. That doesn't factor in “facilities maintenance” where PFI contractors have to change or fix certain equipment. A Daily Telegraph investigation found that one hospital was charged £52,000 for a job which should have cost £750. Some trusts spend a sixth of their budget repaying PFI (and will continue to until 2050)

2003 - Labour introduced Independent Sector Treatment Centres (ISTCs). Run by private companies for profit, ISTCs were contracted (on very favourable terms) to provide solely NHS elective procedures, creating extra capacity in the system to bring down waiting lists.

2009 - Labour introduced the “any qualified provider” (AQP) initiative, which allowed the private sector to undertake NHS work outside the ISTC programme. Under AQP, patients who require elective procedures can choose to use their nearby private hospital rather than their local general hospital.

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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by Caballo » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:21 am

Sproggy wrote:Labour offered GPs a gold-plated contract with big pay increases that allowed most of them to abandon emergency cover.

The number of NHS managers doubled under the last Labour government.

Labour spent £10bn on a patient records system which never went live.

1997 - Labour's magical solution to under-investment in NHS infrastructure - PFI. The total bill for NHS PFI hospitals will be £80bn, vs. build costs of £12bn. That doesn't factor in “facilities maintenance” where PFI contractors have to change or fix certain equipment. A Daily Telegraph investigation found that one hospital was charged £52,000 for a job which should have cost £750. Some trusts spend a sixth of their budget repaying PFI (and will continue to until 2050)

2003 - Labour introduced Independent Sector Treatment Centres (ISTCs). Run by private companies for profit, ISTCs were contracted (on very favourable terms) to provide solely NHS elective procedures, creating extra capacity in the system to bring down waiting lists.

2009 - Labour introduced the “any qualified provider” (AQP) initiative, which allowed the private sector to undertake NHS work outside the ISTC programme. Under AQP, patients who require elective procedures can choose to use their nearby private hospital rather than their local general hospital.
Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, not those facts!!

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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by Rick_Muller » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:21 am

Sproggy wrote:NEW Labour offered GPs a gold-plated contract with big pay increases that allowed most of them to abandon emergency cover.

The number of NHS managers doubled under the last NEW Labour government.

NEW Labour spent £10bn on a patient records system which never went live.

1997 - NEW Labour's magical solution to under-investment in NHS infrastructure - PFI. The total bill for NHS PFI hospitals will be £80bn, vs. build costs of £12bn. That doesn't factor in “facilities maintenance” where PFI contractors have to change or fix certain equipment. A Daily Telegraph investigation found that one hospital was charged £52,000 for a job which should have cost £750. Some trusts spend a sixth of their budget repaying PFI (and will continue to until 2050)

2003 - NEW Labour introduced Independent Sector Treatment Centres (ISTCs). Run by private companies for profit, ISTCs were contracted (on very favourable terms) to provide solely NHS elective procedures, creating extra capacity in the system to bring down waiting lists.

2009 - NEW Labour introduced the “any qualified provider” (AQP) initiative, which allowed the private sector to undertake NHS work outside the ISTC programme. Under AQP, patients who require elective procedures can choose to use their nearby private hospital rather than their local general hospital.
Just wanted to highlight the difference between NEW Labour and Jeremy Corbyn's Labour.
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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by Rick_Muller » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:22 am

Caballo wrote:Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, not those facts!!
Joke about it as much as you like. I genuinely hope you dont have to fight to get the care you may need in the future with no NHS.

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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:35 am

Reality is that a 100% public service run NHS is neither possible or desirable.

And to run it so it works as "free at the point of contact and for all treatments" is going to result in a lot of money being poured in.

Where is that coming from?

Both parties released their economic borrowing plans yesterday. Both are incredibly optimistic on the borrowing costs.

We need to raise more money and to use it more efficiently. Labour succeeded with the first bit but failed with the second, while the Tories failed with the first bit and succeeded with the 2nd.

Some balance is required
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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by houseboy » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:36 am

The basic problem is the NHS is anathema to everything the Tories stand for. If it doesn't make a profit scrap it is their basic code for everything. The 'death by stealth' is the only way they could rid themselves of something that they see as a beacon of socialism on our political landscape. It doesn't make a profit (of course it doesn't and it was never meant to) so they want rid. The only problem they have had in all these years is how to do it because simply scrapping it would probably mean they wouldn't get in power again this side of doomsday, thus the stealth. One of the worst lies ever told in British politics is when the Tories say the NHS is safe with them - it simply isn't and never will be because their basic creed is opposed to everything it stands for.

Anyone who doesn't realise this is simply fooling themselves. People can come in with whatever massaged government figures they want but it is simply a fact that the Tories don't like it - I can even understand it because it is not in their mindset to care for it.
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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by Mala591 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:44 am

The NHS is already predominantly run by private companies/individuals. GP's are self employed, hospital suppliers (medicines, equipment, food) are all private companies. Only acute care (hospital) staff are actually employed by the NHS.

It is a very complex but well co-ordinated system of care delivery which works exceedingly well and we should all be proud of it.
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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by LoveCurryPies » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:45 am

Maybe we should all be entitled to a basic (but quite comprehensive) NHS.

However, things like superficial cosmetic surgery - breast implants, nose jobs, tummy lifts, etc - should be self-funded.

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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by mdd2 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:15 am

Rick_Muller wrote:The problem as I see it is that you cant actually run a service of any kind whilst having a focus on cost reduction - it just doesn't work. You have to run a service as a service and accept that there will be losses due to misuse of that service because some people are only in it for themselves. Unfortunately the amount of people who are in it for themselves has massively increased recently because they have been influenced by propaganda that has been lying to them (see other thread regarding immigration).

As soon as you introduce any form of cost reduction policy in any organisation the first thing that goes by the wayside is quality whether that is making cars; producing food; or providing a service.
Up to a point but you can reduce costs by cutting out waste and boy do we waste in the NHS.
My experience of certain aspects of modernisation actually make you less efficient.

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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by mdd2 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:16 am

LoveCurryPies wrote:Maybe we should all be entitled to a basic (but quite comprehensive) NHS.

However, things like superficial cosmetic surgery - breast implants, nose jobs, tummy lifts, etc - should be self-funded.
Ah but the shape of my nose makes me depressed and if my nose gets fixed then so will my depression

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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by Rick_Muller » Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:35 am

mdd2 wrote:Up to a point but you can reduce costs by cutting out waste and boy do we waste in the NHS.
My experience of certain aspects of modernisation actually make you less efficient.
I agree that you can reduce costs by cutting out waste but when you trim anything to the bone and provide the bare minimum you lose those aspects that contribute over and above the bare minimum to provide quality. For example (and it is intentionally simple), the bare minimum is to repair the cut by stitching it up; whereas the quality treatment is to clean the wound first so the cut doesn't become infected. By adding the quality element (of cleaning the wound) you have reduced the overall cost because although you treated the cut by stitching it up, you had to do it again and more after it was infected.

Too many accountants aim for reduced costs by cutting quality. They don't understand that the value of quality reduces the cost.

I do agree that there is a compromise to be had, but getting back on topic - the NHS is stripped bare and can currently offer no quality of care like it used to. The next stage will be propaganda to discredit the failing NHS and insist on a private care system for all (like the US) because profit can be made.
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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by Grumps » Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:36 am

Rick_Muller wrote:Joke about it as much as you like. I genuinely hope you dont have to fight to get the care you may need in the future with no NHS.
Me and many of my family have received excellent care and treatment from the NHS in the past few years. Nowhere near as bad as some on here would try and have you believe

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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by Rick_Muller » Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:40 am

Grumps wrote:Me and many of my family have received excellent care and treatment from the NHS in the past few years. Nowhere near as bad as some on here would try and have you believe
I have received excellent care too. When you have a chronic life long disease like I have you get to see the changes over a long period of time. Trust me, the NHS is broken and the cause of the breakage is the poor care and management from successive governments.

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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by CardyTheClaret » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:04 am

Rick_Muller wrote:Just wanted to highlight the difference between NEW Labour and Jeremy Corbyn's Labour.
Replace the word NEW with ELECTABLE.

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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by Rick_Muller » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:28 am

CardyTheClaret wrote:Replace the word NEW with ELECTABLE.
You’re probably right. I think it’s a shame that people think like that, and it is a reflection on society as a whole. If you have empathy for others you tend to be more “Left wing”. If you’re more self centred you tend to be more “right wing”. I am not going to judge anyone else’s viewpoint per se, but I know I have a great deal of empathy for others and I include people who are self centred in that. The same, quite clearly, cannot be said of the reverse.

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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by chorleyhere » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:32 am

The juxtaposition of the words One Nation and Tories leaves a lot of doubt in my mind just as Cameron's"we're all in this together' rang the bells of insincerity. The words profit and National Health service do not and should not go together. The increased cost of medicines if we get embroiled with the US pharmaceutical giants has been proved to be eye watering.
On a personal note despite what some people made comments referring to my Prostate Cancer treatment as slow, I really couldn't have had any better treatment than that from the NHS surgeon, anaesthetist and nursing and clinic staff plus my GP who fast tracked me into the system. I'm on the road to recovery and am mightily grateful to everyone concerned.

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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by mdd2 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:32 am

Rick I am sure I am right-we will not go down the US route. No western democracy has-it is too expensive for those who use it and too inferior for those with no means to pay. There are ways other than ours and theirs to run a health service. Irish republic, France Australia have insurance based systems but for those without the means they have free and pretty similar care. In Australia doctors I know are seeing our practices moving into their system and making it worse for them and their patients.
I have said it so many times but with the NHS no one of importance and by that I mean patients and clinical staff have any ownership and therefore no idea of how much money they are wasting or how much danger is being created by their collective actions.
Government holds a gun to the heads of Chief Execs-balance the books, no more than 5% 4 hour waits we will take money off you if you have 12 hour waits and also not pay you for readmissions with the same problem if you are readmitted in x weeks of discharge. And the more emergencies you see well that is block contract so you get the same money or if you are lucky we will give you a bit more.
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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by lakedistrictclaret » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:33 am

My personal experience is that if you have something serious, like cancer, the NHS works.

If however you have something non-life threatening, like my hernia, you wait, and wait, and wait, and then go private.
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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by mdd2 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:34 am

You can be right wing and have sympathy/empathy. Try me
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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by If it be your will » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:50 am

The NHS is an embarrassment now. It doesn't seem capable of doing the simplest of things, like treating acutely ill people, without some laughable charade or other.

Which was the plan, of course.

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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by mdd2 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:50 am

I think some cancer treatments are slower than in the past but in some cases that is because more needs to be known about the cancer to allow the appropriate treatment as some cancers have much better outcomes due to more targeted treatment. Breast cancer used to be biopsy and mastectomy at the same operation and then on your way and maybe radiotherapy. Now sometimes lumpectomy and tablets or radiotherapy is all that is done but for some a lumpectomy will be followed a few weeks later by mastectomy.

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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by Spijed » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:52 am

lakedistrictclaret wrote:My personal experience is that if you have something serious, like cancer, the NHS works.
Indeed. I'd say intensive care units and high dependency units in the NHS are amongst the best in the world.
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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by mdd2 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:55 am

If it be your will wrote:The NHS is an embarrassment now. It doesn't seem capable of doing the simplest of things, like treating acutely ill people, without some laughable charade or other.

Which was the plan, of course.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Spot on there. Everyday health care workers get up and go to work and think "I wonder how I can **** up some poor patients life today?"
Not all called Shipman or Allitt you know.

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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by Rick_Muller » Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:05 pm

mdd2 wrote:You can be right wing and have sympathy/empathy. Try me
Accepted mdd2, I thinks that why I qualified the statement with “tend to be” :)

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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by Spike » Fri Nov 08, 2019 1:16 pm

HieronymousBoschHobs wrote:The Tories have been planning the privatisation of the health service for a long time. Here is a summary of a somewhat technical, but highly informative and well-research article, from the London Review of Books:

'In his report to the Conservative Party’s Economic Reconstruction Group in 1977, Nicholas Ridley wrote that

denationalisation should not be attempted by frontal attack but by preparation for return to the private sector by stealth. We should first pass legislation to destroy the public sector monopolies. We might also need to take power to sell assets. Secondly, we should fragment the industries as far as possible and set up the units as separate profit centres.
'

In 2012, the Tories put the NHS under the charge of one Simon Stevens - former CEO of the US for-profit healthcare company United Health. His mission? Cut costs, and hence increase profits, by reducing access to care - a long-term strategy of private healthcare operators in the States.

He was the right man for the job, at least in the eyes of the Conservatives: 'Hospital beds have been progressively cut: the UK’s bed-to-patient ratio is now one of the lowest in any developed country. Accident and emergency departments, which not only require expensive equipment and high numbers of staff but also take the brunt of social care failings, are in the process of being cut from 144 to about fifty. GP care is increasingly provided by ‘physician associates’, nurse practitioners and pharmacists, while patients are exhorted to use privately owned, profit-making online and app consultancies such as Doctaly, GP at Hand and myGP. Opening up new markets for US tech giants is a key factor in the reconfiguration of the NHS.

Proponents of privatisation might argue these measures are necessary because the spiralling costs of the NHS must be kept under-control. However, these policies are not cost-effective:

'Private companies, with their increased overheads, higher rates of borrowing and shareholder dividends, are inherently more costly to the public than state-funded services. Less obvious are the high costs of management and administration involved in franchising and marketing services. In the US these are estimated to account for more than 30 per cent of the $3.6 trillion spent on healthcare. A 2010 report commissioned by the Department of Health estimated management and administration costs at 14 per cent of total NHS spending, more than twice the figure in 1990. '

For-profit healthcare providers, most based in the US, seem to be doing very well out of the Conservative's reforms:

'At the 2012 World Economic Forum, Stevens [head of NHS England] led proposals to replace public healthcare systems... His collaborators included Medtronic, the world’s largest producer of medical devices (a US company based in Ireland for tax purposes), Qualcomm Life, which designs medical technology, and Kaiser. Since his arrival at NHS England, the influence of such companies has grown: IBM is now a lead supplier of IT; Optum runs GP referrals services and is in a partnership with the second largest GP federation, Modality. The UK’s largest GP network, the Practice Group, is owned by the American company Centene... NHS property and land assets worth £10 billion are being sold to private developers. '

Worst of all, this has all been done behind the backs of the British public:

'The fragmentation of a once fully integrated service into competing and commercially-driven units is well advanced and has been accomplished without proper public scrutiny, knowledge, consent or appropriate Parliamentary legislation. Successive governments have been assisted by the failure of the media to recognise the overall shape of the project and sufficiently analyse the disparate changes.'

John Furse - The NHS Dismantled
After all the lies people fell for in the Brexit referendum I would have thought that people would be now more discerning when spotting fake news from the truth

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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by If it be your will » Fri Nov 08, 2019 1:41 pm

mdd2 wrote::lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Spot on there. Everyday health care workers get up and go to work and think "I wonder how I can **** up some poor patients life today?"
Not all called Shipman or Allitt you know.
Ha, yes. Obviously not those that get up and try and do their job. But the gradual imposition of structures that were so blindingly ill-considered the only way to make sense of them is to believe they were done deliberately. Layer upon layer of idiocy making the whole thing unmanageable, no matter how many managers you employ. This can't be explained away by incompetence, they were just too incompetent for that.
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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by dsr » Fri Nov 08, 2019 1:50 pm

HieronymousBoschHobs wrote:The Tories have been planning the privatisation of the health service for a long time. Here is a summary of a somewhat technical, but highly informative and well-research article, from the London Review of Books:

'In his report to the Conservative Party’s Economic Reconstruction Group in 1977, Nicholas Ridley wrote that

denationalisation should not be attempted by frontal attack but by preparation for return to the private sector by stealth. We should first pass legislation to destroy the public sector monopolies. We might also need to take power to sell assets. Secondly, we should fragment the industries as far as possible and set up the units as separate profit centres.
'

In 2012, the Tories put the NHS under the charge of one Simon Stevens - former CEO of the US for-profit healthcare company United Health. His mission? Cut costs, and hence increase profits, by reducing access to care - a long-term strategy of private healthcare operators in the States.

He was the right man for the job, at least in the eyes of the Conservatives: 'Hospital beds have been progressively cut: the UK’s bed-to-patient ratio is now one of the lowest in any developed country. Accident and emergency departments, which not only require expensive equipment and high numbers of staff but also take the brunt of social care failings, are in the process of being cut from 144 to about fifty. GP care is increasingly provided by ‘physician associates’, nurse practitioners and pharmacists, while patients are exhorted to use privately owned, profit-making online and app consultancies such as Doctaly, GP at Hand and myGP. Opening up new markets for US tech giants is a key factor in the reconfiguration of the NHS.

Proponents of privatisation might argue these measures are necessary because the spiralling costs of the NHS must be kept under-control. However, these policies are not cost-effective:

'Private companies, with their increased overheads, higher rates of borrowing and shareholder dividends, are inherently more costly to the public than state-funded services. Less obvious are the high costs of management and administration involved in franchising and marketing services. In the US these are estimated to account for more than 30 per cent of the $3.6 trillion spent on healthcare. A 2010 report commissioned by the Department of Health estimated management and administration costs at 14 per cent of total NHS spending, more than twice the figure in 1990. '

For-profit healthcare providers, most based in the US, seem to be doing very well out of the Conservative's reforms:

'At the 2012 World Economic Forum, Stevens [head of NHS England] led proposals to replace public healthcare systems... His collaborators included Medtronic, the world’s largest producer of medical devices (a US company based in Ireland for tax purposes), Qualcomm Life, which designs medical technology, and Kaiser. Since his arrival at NHS England, the influence of such companies has grown: IBM is now a lead supplier of IT; Optum runs GP referrals services and is in a partnership with the second largest GP federation, Modality. The UK’s largest GP network, the Practice Group, is owned by the American company Centene... NHS property and land assets worth £10 billion are being sold to private developers. '

Worst of all, this has all been done behind the backs of the British public:

'The fragmentation of a once fully integrated service into competing and commercially-driven units is well advanced and has been accomplished without proper public scrutiny, knowledge, consent or appropriate Parliamentary legislation. Successive governments have been assisted by the failure of the media to recognise the overall shape of the project and sufficiently analyse the disparate changes.'

John Furse - The NHS Dismantled
All this going to say that the privatisation of the NHS is the fault of the tories since 2012? Remind me when Gordon Brown was Chancellor of the Exchequer. You can fault the Tories since 2012 by all means, but you can't blame them for starting off "privatisation" in 2012. It was already way down the line.

Anyway, the purpose of the NHS is not to please its staff. Looking after the staff is the responsibility of all good employers and the NHS should certainly do it, but the point of the NHS is not to keep the staff happy - it is to provide free healthcare at point of need. Argue all you want about how best to do it, but the principle that no company or individual ought to make a profit by it is nonsense. Doctors need paying; nurses need paying; caretakers and cleaners need paying; builders need paying; drug companies need paying; dentists need paying; landowners need paying; even administrators need paying. Argue all you want about who has the best system for paying them, but don't argue that no-one should make money. The NHS exists purely for the benefit of the patients.

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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by Rick_Muller » Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:39 pm

dsr wrote:Argue all you want about who has the best system for paying them, but don't argue that no-one should make money. The NHS exists purely for the benefit of the patients.
Contradictory Statement dsr, if the NHS exists purely for the benefit of the patients (which I agree with) how can people make money from it? The NHS should not function to create profit for anyone.

Or have I misunderstood what you meant?

Edit to say that I recognise that I have a somewhat utopian view, and I recognise that some people are motivated by money and that’s what they’ll do.

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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by dsr » Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:38 pm

Rick_Muller wrote:Contradictory Statement dsr, if the NHS exists purely for the benefit of the patients (which I agree with) how can people make money from it? The NHS should not function to create profit for anyone.

Or have I misunderstood what you meant?

Edit to say that I recognise that I have a somewhat utopian view, and I recognise that some people are motivated by money and that’s what they’ll do.
The purpose of the NHS is not to give a doctor a wage or a builder a profit on his building. But if you don't pay the doctor a wage, or you don't let the builder make money, then the NHS won't be able to fulfil its purpose which is to treat the patients.

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Re: Facts About the NHS

Post by martin_p » Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:45 pm

dsr wrote:The purpose of the NHS is not to give a doctor a wage or a builder a profit on his building. But if you don't pay the doctor a wage, or you don't let the builder make money, then the NHS won't be able to fulfil its purpose which is to treat the patients.
No one has a problem with people being paid for what they do, especially when there’s a link between what they do and the treatment of patients (whether direct or indirect). However the privatisation of the NHS is handing money to people who have done nothing more than invest in shares.
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