Idea for offsides

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WazzaClaret
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Idea for offsides

Post by WazzaClaret » Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:59 pm

Probably talking nonsense but...

Wouldn't it be better now we have VAR to change it so as long as the attacker has a playable body part level with the defender then theyre onside? Wouldnt that make it easier for VAR to see as well?

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Re: Idea for offsides

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:02 pm

WazzaClaret wrote:Probably talking nonsense but...

Wouldn't it be better now we have VAR to change it so as long as the attacker has a playable body part level with the defender then theyre onside? Wouldnt that make it easier for VAR to see as well?
Brilliant idea. Ive said for ages. Should be clear day light.

The rules werent created for margins like that, that even computers cant detect never mind humans.

Ruining the game.
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Re: Idea for offsides

Post by Texanclaret16 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:08 pm

I set a thread up ages ago about this and how it should only be scoring body parts and that with VAR it should only be the body part connected with the floor in most cases this is your feet will make all decisions straight forward with no debating if it’s his nose or cheek bone
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Re: Idea for offsides

Post by WazzaClaret » Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:11 pm

Also it allows the forward to gain a slight advantage and if they do end up offside then it is completely the forwards fault for pushing his luck.

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Re: Idea for offsides

Post by Claretmatt4 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:08 pm

Also, if it goes to var they need to consider what advantage was gained. The sheff United one is a good example, what benefit was there for him being and extra centimetre ahead?

Or even better idea, get rid of it.

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Re: Idea for offsides

Post by WazzaClaret » Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:37 pm

Claretmatt4 wrote:Also, if it goes to var they need to consider what advantage was gained. The sheff United one is a good example, what benefit was there for him being and extra centimetre ahead?

Or even better idea, get rid of it.

Thatd be fantastic. Wood would have the golden boot if they scrapped offside :lol:

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Re: Idea for offsides

Post by Rileybobs » Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:47 pm

Nothing wrong with the offside rule. What is wrong is how VAR is used and how it negatively impacts on the spectator’s enjoyment of the game.

Some people say it’s melodramatic when fans say they can’t celebrate goals properly, but I can honestly say that I didn’t fully celebrate any of the 4 goals which were originally awarded today.

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Re: Idea for offsides

Post by Claretmatt4 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:08 pm

WazzaClaret wrote:Thatd be fantastic. Wood would have the golden boot if they scrapped offside :lol:
I meant scrap VAR you clever git :-)
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Re: Idea for offsides

Post by wilks_bfc » Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:31 pm

I thought only parts of the body that you can score a goal with could be offside but after decisions over the last couple of weeks I’m not so sure now.

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Re: Idea for offsides

Post by Darnhill Claret » Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:34 pm

If we can’t be certain which freeze frame should be used, surely the one that is used and the one prior to it should be used and if the scorer is onside in either then a goal should be awarded.
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Re: Idea for offsides

Post by beddie » Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:39 pm

My idea as well, get rid of it, it's ruining the game.

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Re: Idea for offsides

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:02 pm

Rileybobs wrote:Nothing wrong with the offside rule. What is wrong is how VAR is used and how it negatively impacts on the spectator’s enjoyment of the game.

Some people say it’s melodramatic when fans say they can’t celebrate goals properly, but I can honestly say that I didn’t fully celebrate any of the 4 goals which were originally awarded today.
Same.

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Re: Idea for offsides

Post by ClaretEngineer » Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:12 pm

What we need is a properly engineered solution.

It’s all very well drawing lines on a screen, but they are drawn from one side of the pitch and from a perspective view that is not a direct cross section of the play.

Hands and arms should be discounted from any offside decision as by the laws of the game the ball can not be controlled legally.

Balls and boots need sensors so that the VAR official has an origin reference point for when the ball is played to the point at which the player is deemed offside by the cross section.

The technology and science is already present in many other forms of industry.

However it isn’t half making the game sh7t when you have to wait for a decision on a goal.
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Re: Idea for offsides

Post by WazzaClaret » Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:38 pm

Yeah VAR is the pits but it's here to stay unfortunetly. I was looking forward to it so much. I stupidly thought it would level the playing field. I genuinely believe its killing the game as im coming away from most games i watch as a neutral annoyed rather than indifferent.

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Re: Idea for offsides

Post by Rileybobs » Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:56 pm

ClaretEngineer wrote:What we need is a properly engineered solution.

It’s all very well drawing lines on a screen, but they are drawn from one side of the pitch and from a perspective view that is not a direct cross section of the play.

Hands and arms should be discounted from any offside decision as by the laws of the game the ball can not be controlled legally.

Balls and boots need sensors so that the VAR official has an origin reference point for when the ball is played to the point at which the player is deemed offside by the cross section.

The technology and science is already present in many other forms of industry.

However it isn’t half making the game sh7t when you have to wait for a decision on a goal.
I think the future will be a camera on a track running along the length of the pitch, similar to at a greyhound track, with technology similar to that used in photo-finishes in horse racing.

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Re: Idea for offsides

Post by Jakubs Tash » Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:58 pm

Could they not just say if it's too tight to call either give the benefit of the doubt to the attacking team and/or go with the on-field refs decision?

Do we even know how accurate these lines are that the VAR refs are working with?

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Re: Idea for offsides

Post by dsr » Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:18 pm

Here's an idea for offside. Why not say that if you're behind the man you're onside, if you're in front of him you're offside, and if you're level with him you're onside. And then the VAR man can just look at the screen, say "Wood was level, the goal stands" and we all get on with it. This would save (1) the stupid situation where goals which are perfectly legal with normal rules being disallowed on a technicality ion VAR games; (2) it would stop situations like today when the technology clearly isn't good enough to judge whether it was offside or not because the film isn't fast enough, so the VAR man can say "we don't know whether it was offside or not at the moment the ball was played, but he was offside somewhere near the moment the ball was played so let's guess he was also offside at the time we should be looking".

I don't think VAR men realise that a running man's foot covers an inch in one-sixhundredth of a second. So if they are judging offside by an inch, they need cameras that take pictures at minimum 600 frames per second. The cameras actually take 26 frames per second, which makes them fine for judging offside under the traditional rules, but hopeless for judging offside under the new rules where "level" means "to the nearest half a millimetre". It's like trying to measure a cake ingredients on the bathroom scales. Hopelessly inadequate degree of accuracy.
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Re: Idea for offsides

Post by mdd2 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:21 pm

Being offside was an offence as it offered an unfair advantage and that should still be the case but if that bit of your bady that is offside needs lines drawing on a computer then I do not see any advantage and it shouldn't be offside.
Today the biggest sin for the Hammers was our first goal came from a corner that wasn't a corner as it went out of play off a Burnley player (Barnes I think)

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Re: Idea for offsides

Post by dsr » Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:23 pm

Jakubs Tash wrote:Could they not just say if it's too tight to call either give the benefit of the doubt to the attacking team and/or go with the on-field refs decision?

Do we even know how accurate these lines are that the VAR refs are working with?
I don't know the accuracy of the lines, but as in my post above, the timing is all to pot. If two men are running alongside each other in a race and you are judging who leads by the chests, then the chances are the man whose chest is an inch further forward in consecutive frames was an inch further forward in the instants between frames as well. But a running man's knee does not move at the same rate as another running man's shoulder, or indeed as his knee if they're running out of sync. So just because consecutive frames show a man offside by an inch in both frames does not necessarily mean he was offside in the time between.

In any case, as far as I can see they aren't using two frames to compare. They're just picking one more or less at random and using that. I dare say if the next or previous frame had been used, Wood would have been onside.

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Re: Idea for offsides

Post by dougcollins » Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:42 pm

Let the linesman decide. They actually got less wrong.
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Re: Idea for offsides

Post by Bosscat » Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:01 pm

What Doug says along with what dsr says ......


To break it down to millimetres you need cameras with 600 fpm not 26fpm ......

The decision should favour the attacking side not at the moment the defending side (unless its Arsenil, Chelski, Man Spew, Citeh Spuds etc etc :D :D :D )

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Re: Idea for offsides

Post by Ashingtonclaret46 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:12 pm

Just get used to what is happening in the game because it will continue for the benefit of the tv audiences all over the world. That is where the money is coming from and those of us who actually go to the matches do not matter one bit.
They are messing about with the Laws of the Game to accommodate VAR and there will be more changes made in the future.

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Re: Idea for offsides

Post by Bordeauxclaret » Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:20 pm

We need to either get competent people to judge decisions via VAR or just bin it off altogether and accept they are exceedingly bad at their jobs currently.

It’s been brought in because they are awful. However they’ve let the same awful officials made the decisions.
And it’s going awfully.

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Re: Idea for offsides

Post by bfcjg » Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:24 pm

Simplify it even more If you're a Burnley player it's offside.

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Re: Idea for offsides

Post by NL Claret » Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:24 pm

Here's an idea , don't have useless referees at Stockley Park. Every week they prove why there are no English referees at major tournaments . Andy Gray was going mad at ours and the Sheffield United decisions. For consistency, just have him making all the var decisions .

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Re: Idea for offsides

Post by Dyched » Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:41 pm

Offside is offside. Whether by 1mm or 1 mile.

Fans celebrating a goal properly or not doesn’t even come into the rule.

I’m sick of hearing if he had clipped his toe nails if he was a size 8 and not a size 9.

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Re: Idea for offsides

Post by Rileybobs » Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:15 pm

Dyched wrote:Offside is offside. Whether by 1mm or 1 mile.

Fans celebrating a goal properly or not doesn’t even come into the rule.

I’m sick of hearing if he had clipped his toe nails if he was a size 8 and not a size 9.
I agree - offside is offside. The technology isn’t accurate to determine that a decision is 100% correct but it has made it a black and white call.

Not sure of your point about the fans celebrating the goal though. No one is arguing for that offside goals should be allowed to stand for spectator enjoyment. I would happily scrap VAR and accept that some incorrect offside calls will go for my team and some will go against them. As a spectator at the ground I would prefer the referee immediately point to the centre spot or the linesman raise his flag.

I celebrated today’s goals far less enthusiastically than I would have done last season. The enjoyment was sucked out of those moments which are why we all love football.

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Re: Idea for offsides

Post by Dyched » Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:22 pm

Rileybobs wrote:I agree - offside is offside. The technology isn’t accurate to determine that a decision is 100% correct but it has made it a black and white call.

Not sure of your point about the fans celebrating the goal though. No one is arguing for that offside goals should be allowed to stand for spectator enjoyment. I would happily scrap VAR and accept that some incorrect offside calls will go for my team and some will go against them. As a spectator at the ground I would prefer the referee immediately point to the centre spot or the linesman raise his flag.

I celebrated today’s goals far less enthusiastically than I would have done last season. The enjoyment was sucked out of those moments which are why we all love football.
I worded it wrongly tbh with you. I just meant fans celebrating in general comes up in these kinds of debates about VAR and tbh that really doesn’t matter. It isn’t a measure of how good or bad VAR works.

For me offside is fine how it is. Those wanting “daylight” take a look at Arsenals disallowed goal today. That would be ridiculous if that had been allowed to stand.

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Re: Idea for offsides

Post by Rileybobs » Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:27 pm

Dyched wrote:I worded it wrongly tbh with you. I just meant fans celebrating in general comes up in these kinds of debates about VAR and tbh that really doesn’t matter. It isn’t a measure of how good or bad VAR works.

For me offside is fine how it is. Those wanting “daylight” take a look at Arsenals disallowed goal today. That would be ridiculous if that had been allowed to stand.
Yeah - I don’t understand the daylight argument. How can you see daylight between players if someone is stood behind them? Also - it just moves the offside line back slightly. There will still be the same marginal calls, the margin will just have moved. Won’t make a single bit of difference.

In terms of how VAR works - is VAR resulting in more correct decisions? I would say that it is - particularly with offside calls. But is the sacrifice of spectator enjoyment and general entertainment a price worth paying for a very small increase in correct decisions? I would say no.

Waiting 3 minutes to find out whether the goal your team have scored has been awarded is utterly ridiculous. How can that be good for the game?

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Re: Idea for offsides

Post by Dyched » Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:38 pm

Rileybobs wrote:Yeah - I don’t understand the daylight argument. How can you see daylight between players if someone is stood behind them? Also - it just moves the offside line back slightly. There will still be the same marginal calls, the margin will just have moved. Won’t make a single bit of difference.

In terms of how VAR works - is VAR resulting in more correct decisions? I would say that it is - particularly with offside calls. But is the sacrifice of spectator enjoyment and general entertainment a price worth paying for a very small increase in correct decisions? I would say no.

Waiting 3 minutes to find out whether the goal your team have scored has been awarded is utterly ridiculous. How can that be good for the game?
I like the way it’s starting to get things correct. From a fans point of view the sacrifice probably isn’t worth it at the minute. But that depends who you ask. As those Spurs fans that were at the Etihad in the CL and they’ll have a different view of those in the City end. But it’s new. It’s been here a few months. It’ll get better. Refs starting out will be trained with it in place which will make it run more smoothly.

I like the no goal if it touches an attackers arm rule also. But I also think that it should be the same for defenders and penalties given whether accidental or not. Teams shouldn’t get an unfair advantage by an accidental arm if defending or attacking.

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Re: Idea for offsides

Post by dsr » Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:06 am

About 30 years ago, the offside law was changed so that if a forward was level with the second-last defender, he was onside. Previously, level meant offside. This was explicitly stated to be with the intention of getting more goals into football. It was never intended to give the forward an extra 1mm or 2mm of space; it was intended to make a significant difference. The area in which a player is "level" is a bit of a broad brush area - as judged by the naked eye - "if a player appears to be level, then he is level" is the wording I remember from guidance to referees, though I can't find that quoted on t'net.

But now the lawmakers have two choices.

Option 1 - they could keep the law and its interpretation the same as it has been for the last thirty years. No need to draw lines all over the screen, no need to have two and three minute delays. Level could mean level as it generally appears to human eye and goals like Wood's and that Sheff Utd goal today would stand, after a 15 second delay which is all it would take for the VAR man to say "yes, that's level".

Option 2 - they could insist on a strict interpretation of the offside law to take away all the advantage of the "new" rule introduced thirty years ago. This would mean that the extra goals introduced by the new rule, like Wood's today, can be disallowed; it would mean the decisions would be much harder to make so there would be much longer delays before a goal can be celebrated or disallowed; it would make judgement of close offsides literally impossible for a linesman so would mean many more offside referrals.

I doubt that the FA officials have looked closely at these options and decided that option 2 is full of advantages and is the way forward for football. I think they just haven't thought about it at all. Apart from the thought "VAR is new, so it must be good". I don't know who is in charge of the implementation of VAR, but whoever it is, he is incompetent and should be sacked.
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Re: Idea for offsides

Post by Madpete » Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:58 am

Post 31 by dsr is so simply the best explanation of how we can move forward on this matter.Sadly I can’t possibly see how such a practical suggestion would be adopted by the powers that be.Why a inquiry involving all interested parties cannot be convened to bring clarity & common sense to this thorny problem is beyond me.The scoring of goals is such a sheer joy & to destroy this on a question of kneecaps,big toes,shoulders and such is so wrong.
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Re: Idea for offsides

Post by Bosscat » Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:45 am

bfcjg wrote:Simplify it even more If you're a Burnley player it's offside.
Isn't that how its done already :?

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Re: Idea for offsides

Post by Ashingtonclaret46 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:56 am

Bosscat wrote:Isn't that how its done already :?
They must have got confused with the colours when we played Villa! ;)
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Re: Idea for offsides

Post by alwaysaclaret » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:11 am

Imo campaigning for a solution to all this offside business was brought about by so many bad decisions made by officials that seemed to be leaning towards teams deemed to be part of the big six clan, by managers and coaches etc of teams deemed to be "a bottom half team" or teams ending up in a relegation battle, if you follow me, which was all escalated because of people watching what is deemed to be the best league in the world being the premier league, obviously somebody has to be in a relegation battle but it just seemed to be so unfair as with the diving obviously, but when we're now talking about a body part as in toe or arm making huge decisions this is imo just ridiculous, what advantage does that give the attacking player for god sake, in previous times/seasons there was thousands of "clear and obvious, wrong decisions" made where there has been yards between and the goal has been given, how on earth has the game got to this, yes I agree with var but the rule has to be changed obviously, daylight springs to mind as has been already mentioned. But just in response to post 22 by Ashington it will start to matter when crowds start to dwindle because no one sees any enjoyment in the game anymore, I actually thought at one point what am I doing here yesterday. Yes I am claret forever but it did cross my mind.

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Re: Idea for offsides

Post by LordBob » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:47 am

cricketfieldclarets wrote:Brilliant idea. Ive said for ages. Should be clear day light.

The rules werent created for margins like that, that even computers cant detect never mind humans.

Ruining the game.
They are discussing the offside rule on Talksport this very moment and they agree with your 'clear daylight' idea so do I.
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Re: Idea for offsides

Post by Rileybobs » Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:06 pm

LordBob wrote:They are discussing the offside rule on Talksport this very moment and they agree with your 'clear daylight' idea so do I.
How would clear daylight be measured? Surely whether or not there is clear daylight depends on the angle of the tv cameras which are a different height at each ground. I hear a lot of people talk about clear daylight but I have absolutely no idea what that means.

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Re: Idea for offsides

Post by CombatClaret » Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:32 pm

Rileybobs wrote:I think the future will be a camera on a track running along the length of the pitch, similar to at a greyhound track, with technology similar to that used in photo-finishes in horse racing.
In racing everyone is running the same direction. Imagine trying to control a camera to keep up along side a player, pausing, running, shooting etc.

Also racing tracks are narrow compared to football pitches which can be up to 90meters in width, at those distances lens distortion would make it all but impossible to give an accurate position of two player. Horse racing uses a zoom lens to compress the background and foreground, that would be impossible to implement on a football pitch.

Also, aren't the moving camera only to show the action? I think in both cases of dogs and horses the photo finish the high frame rate cameras are in a static position on the finish line which is needed for the precision.

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Re: Idea for offsides

Post by Rileybobs » Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:44 pm

CombatClaret wrote:In racing everyone is running the same direction. Imagine trying to control a camera to keep up along side a player, pausing, running, shooting etc.

Also racing tracks are narrow compared to football pitches which can be up to 90meters in width, at those distances lens distortion would make it all but impossible to give an accurate position of two player. Horse racing uses a zoom lens to compress the background and foreground, that would be impossible to implement on a football pitch.
I was thinking the camera would be automated and trained on the last man rather than manually controlled. I don’t have an answer to your other technical points as I know very little about cameras, but I don’t think my suggestion will be beyond the wit of man in the future.

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Re: Idea for offsides

Post by Woodleyclaret » Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:48 pm

Revert to previous rules where a player is deemed offside if they are standing in front of the ball
This rule of var is nonsense .Salah had his chest in front of the var line .Chris Wood had the drip off his nose in front .Surprise Surprise the Scallies goal stood ,ours didn't.
A Liverpool player was standing in the penalty are as Salah"scored"
The confusion with Var is nonsense
Sheff Utd were robbed at Spuds with var decision.Chalking off their winner

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Re: Idea for offsides

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:31 pm

LordBob wrote:They are discussing the offside rule on Talksport this very moment and they agree with your 'clear daylight' idea so do I.
Cant think of a better solution.

@ Rileybobs - clear day light. i.e. no part of the body is overlapping with that of the defender. Be it toe, leg, head or even arm.

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Re: Idea for offsides

Post by dougcollins » Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:48 pm

dsr wrote:
I doubt that the FA officials have looked closely at these options and decided that option 2 is full of advantages and is the way forward for football. I think they just haven't thought about it at all. Apart from the thought "VAR is new, so it must be good". I don't know who is in charge of the implementation of VAR, but whoever it is, he is incompetent and should be sacked.

Isn't it ex (and bang average) referee Neil Swarbrick?

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Re: Idea for offsides

Post by Stayingup » Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:13 pm

Rileybobs wrote:I think the future will be a camera on a track running along the length of the pitch, similar to at a greyhound track, with technology similar to that used in photo-finishes in horse racing.
The future may be even more automated than that. A1 robotics. We are going to have cars that drive themselves so lets relieve humans - with particular reference to an inept set officials - of the duty of officiating football matches. It could well happen you know. Alexa will be able to see soon!!!

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