VAR changes

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ClaretTony
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VAR changes

Post by ClaretTony » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:57 pm

Premier League clubs and PGMOL have agreed to make changes to VAR with fans now set to get additional communication about checks inside the stadium.

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Re: VAR changes

Post by ClaretTony » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:07 pm

Seems only three clubs - Aston Villa, Brighton & Man City according to reports - wanted it scrapping.

I wonder how many of the 20 clubs consulted with players or fans before attending the meeting?

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Re: VAR changes

Post by Funkydrummer » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:08 pm

If their brains were made of gunpowder, they wouldn't have enough to blow their hat off !!

Who are these brainless, clueless, pointless people whose speciality seems to be, in the words of Basil Fawlty, the Bleedin' obvious ?

P!ss up and brewery come to mind. How they get these jobs astounds me.

Rant over. :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(
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Re: VAR changes

Post by Funkydrummer » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:11 pm

ClaretTony wrote:Seems only three clubs - Aston Villa, Brighton & Man City according to reports - wanted it scrapping.

I wonder how many of the 20 clubs consulted with players or fans before attending the meeting?
I'll bet the answer is NONE. The fans are of little or no consequence I'm afraid to say.

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Re: VAR changes

Post by ClaretTony » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:14 pm

Funkydrummer wrote:I'll bet the answer is NONE. The fans are of little or no consequence I'm afraid to say.
I'm convinced it will be none and that's the sad thing about this, decisions being made without consulting the most important people.

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Re: VAR changes

Post by Funkydrummer » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:16 pm

The fans think they are important but nobody else does. That's the crux of the whole sorry saga.
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Re: VAR changes

Post by bfcmik » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:49 pm

ClaretTony wrote:I'm convinced it will be none and that's the sad thing about this, decisions being made without consulting the most important people.
BFC income from fans is, at most, 7 or 8 million a year. TV revenue for BFC is over £100 Million per season. Who do you think has the most sway with Premier League Chairmen?
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Re: VAR changes

Post by evensteadiereddie » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:51 pm

Are the refs going to use pitch-side monitors ?

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Re: VAR changes

Post by Blackrod » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:56 pm

When clubs are on their knees they need fans. Shouldn’t be disregarded once the clubs hit the dizzy heights. They are much harder to get back once they stop going and apathy sets in.
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Re: VAR changes

Post by ClaretTony » Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:09 pm

Blackrod wrote:When clubs are on their knees they need fans. Shouldn’t be disregarded once the clubs hit the dizzy heights. They are much harder to get back once they stop going and apathy sets in.
That’s absolutely correct

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Re: VAR changes

Post by NottsClaret » Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:10 pm

Not sure I need more communication or information.

A man in front of a telly in an office somewhere is slowly forming a subjective opinion on an incident I've just seen myself. I know that already. Them telling me in more detail isn't going to make the moment any less devoid of emotion or passion.
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Re: VAR changes

Post by ClaretAL » Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:19 pm

If its the the communication/information that we see with the TMO in rugby including what they are reviewing shown on the big screen while they are discussing it then I am half way there. the put an ex footballer to sit with the VAR ref to add some common sense to the decisions and OK not far off.

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Re: VAR changes

Post by Dark Cloud » Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:21 pm

Is it going to now be any less subjective or controversial?? I suspect not, so still a well intentioned, well meaning idea, which has totally backfired and become pointless, tedious and useless. (And 95% of fans apparently hate it!)

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Re: VAR changes

Post by Quickenthetempo » Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:26 pm

ClaretAL wrote:If its the the communication/information that we see with the TMO in rugby including what they are reviewing shown on the big screen while they are discussing it then I am half way there. the put an ex footballer to sit with the VAR ref to add some common sense to the decisions and OK not far off.
Most footballers/ex footballers don't know the full rules though.
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Re: VAR changes

Post by Funkydrummer » Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:33 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:Most footballers/ex footballers don't know the full rules though.
Does anybody these days ? :lol: :lol:

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Re: VAR changes

Post by Ashingtonclaret46 » Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:44 pm

The Laws are basically the same, however, the interpretation of them is changing on a weekly basis, mainly thanks to VAR.
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Re: VAR changes

Post by Lowbankclaret » Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:54 pm

I wanted VAR, I wanted it because I thought in 95% of cases incorrect decisions would be corrected.

How wrong was I, it’s become a farce.

I didn’t even cheer or stand up when the corner went in as I was sure it was going to be ruled out.

Ben Mee’s header I am up and cheering, and it gets ruled out. When to be fair having watched it Ben’s shirt was being pulled and it should have been a pen.
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Re: VAR changes

Post by CleggHall » Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:56 pm

Agreed Ashington, the certainty that we all had that we knew and understood the rules of the game has been shaken or shattered by recent VAR interventions. Possibly our prior understanding was at times incorrect but, at this stage,VAR has added nothing to the supporter experience. The Wood - Johnny Evans decision at Leicester still sticks in the throat and will do so for a long time. Football is an exciting game for the present, not some protracted action replays.
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Re: VAR changes

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:59 pm

ClaretAL wrote:If its the the communication/information that we see with the TMO in rugby including what they are reviewing shown on the big screen while they are discussing it then I am half way there. the put an ex footballer to sit with the VAR ref to add some common sense to the decisions and OK not far off.
Seeing as a number of ex footballers usually insist that a player was right to take a tumble when there's minimal contact then I would say it's a bad idea to include an ex footballer.

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Re: VAR changes

Post by Beagleheart » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:11 pm

Last week was beyond rubbish and where I sit in the Bob Lord Stand no amount of information on the screen will help my fan experience.

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Re: VAR changes

Post by superdimitri » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:38 pm

They just need to have mics on the refs like in Rugby, I don't get why it has to be so hard...

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Re: VAR changes

Post by NL Claret » Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:03 pm

Communication isn't the big issue. Consistency is one and another is that VAR is not a goal prevention exercise if a player,s big cock is offside. The rules of football (or the interpretation of them) change by the game.

Then again, the game might be corrupt.

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Re: VAR changes

Post by evensteadiereddie » Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:21 pm

I think VAR is fine for offsides because whatever the margin may be, tiny or otherwise, it is either offside or not.
What I despise is the seemingly arbitary decision-making re handballs, fouls, diving and so on that varies from match to match.
The ref should be miced up as in RU and he or she should consult the pich-side monitor and give their decision as quickly and as clearly as possible.
If people disagree with his/her decision, at least they'll know what their reasoning was.

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Re: VAR changes

Post by Goodclaret » Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:39 pm

They say they are to continue to use the side of the pitch monitors on a limited basis! I hadn't noticed one referee use them at all. I've got to say I was well up for VAR but I think it's been a bit of a disaster so far. The inconsistencies are way too often and, to be fair, are more frustrating because they are made with time on their side and views from a number of angles. At least when it's down to the ref looking at it once, live, then you can actually accept wrong decisions better.
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Re: VAR changes

Post by AlargeClaret » Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:45 pm

It’s becoming nearly every goal that goes to VAR opposing teams can just appeal every goal and they know the ref will refer it. It’s been truly horrendous and the spirit of the game , not to mention the flow is becoming a car crash. There absolutely needs to be some small margin of error for offside ( 6-10” maybe ??) then there can be no frustration at “ fag paper” margins . Only other thing is a cricket like appeal maybe 1 a game end of story .

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Re: VAR changes

Post by Dark Cloud » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:01 pm

The problem is that one referee (on the field) is interpreting an incident one way and then a second referee (off the field) sees it and interprets it differently. That's life and human nature, but why is one then being given greater credence and being allowed to overrule the other? And if the answer to that question is because they have the benefit of seeing several replays which the initial referee doesn't, then why do people STILL not universally agree with them? Simple, because it's STILL all about interpretation. It's utter bollo**s and the PL are turning a deaf ear to what fans who turn up and pay good money really think about it.
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Re: VAR changes

Post by ClaretTony » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:18 pm

AlargeClaret wrote:It’s becoming nearly every goal that goes to VAR opposing teams can just appeal every goal and they know the ref will refer it. It’s been truly horrendous and the spirit of the game , not to mention the flow is becoming a car crash. There absolutely needs to be some small margin of error for offside ( 6-10” maybe ??) then there can be no frustration at “ fag paper” margins . Only other thing is a cricket like appeal maybe 1 a game end of story .
Referees don’t refer goals. Every goal is reviewed by VAR.

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Re: VAR changes

Post by evensteadiereddie » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:29 pm

AlargeClaret wrote:It’s becoming nearly every goal that goes to VAR opposing teams can just appeal every goal and they know the ref will refer it. It’s been truly horrendous and the spirit of the game , not to mention the flow is becoming a car crash. There absolutely needs to be some small margin of error for offside ( 6-10” maybe ??) then there can be no frustration at “ fag paper” margins . Only other thing is a cricket like appeal maybe 1 a game end of story .

That 6-10 " small margin of error would then lead to arguments over whether it was a "fag paper" more or less than 6-10". Never ending !
At least now, however incredibly unlucky it might seem at times, an offside decision is - or should be - quite straightforward.
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Re: VAR changes

Post by AlargeClaret » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:35 pm

ClaretTony wrote:Referees don’t refer goals. Every goal is reviewed by VAR.
Correct I mean the “ VAR refs” who appear to be running the game

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Re: VAR changes

Post by Dark Cloud » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:35 pm

ClaretTony wrote:Referees don’t refer goals. Every goal is reviewed by VAR.
And because we know this, nobody properly celebrates a goal anymore. It's killing one of the biggest attractions in the (live) game.
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Re: VAR changes

Post by k90bfc » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:37 pm

They were the best days,when the Ref said,I can only give what I can see,you won some,you lost some,common sense!

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Re: VAR changes

Post by Funkydrummer » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:44 pm

ClaretTony wrote:Referees don’t refer goals. Every goal is reviewed by VAR.
Our first goal was still given, despite the ball coming off Barnes for the corner.

That's why it's a joke.

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Re: VAR changes

Post by ClaretAL » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:45 pm

k90bfc wrote:They were the best days,when the Ref said,I can only give what I can see,you won some,you lost some,common sense!
How many times have we been done by dodgy decisions when playing the big six, especially Arsenal? VAR is needed but its not being utilised correctly. Once It is, it will be good for the game. Look at the TMO in Rugby, that's what it needs to get to.

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Re: VAR changes

Post by Funkydrummer » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:45 pm

AlargeClaret wrote:Correct I mean the “ VAR refs” who appear to be running the game
You've spelt ruining wrong !! :lol: :lol:
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Re: VAR changes

Post by Dark Cloud » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:48 pm

Funkydrummer wrote:Our first goal was still given, despite the ball coming off Barnes for the corner.

That's why it's a joke.
Everyone round me said exactly the same. How far should VAR go back to declare a goal "illegal"?? Because everyone in the stadium except the ref and the liner knew that wasn't a corner.

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Re: VAR changes

Post by ClaretTony » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:59 pm

Funkydrummer wrote:Our first goal was still given, despite the ball coming off Barnes for the corner.

That's why it's a joke.
VAR doesn’t check corners/goal kicks. It would be a nightmare if all those were checked too.

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Re: VAR changes

Post by Dark Cloud » Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:13 pm

ClaretTony wrote:VAR doesn’t check corners/goal kicks. It would be a nightmare if all those were checked too.
Yes, tbf CT I'm sure he (and I) both knew that. I think the point being made was if the intention is to wipe out erroneously awarded goals, then that COULD definitely be interpreted as one, especially if someone wanted to be pedantic about it and the way things are going it wouldn't surprise me if a couple of years down the line VAR IS being used in situations like that. If that Barnes goal had been scored against Liverpool, all hell would have broken loose over it spanning several days and Klopp would probably be restrained in a straight jacket right now, spitting feathers all over his padded cell and demanding VAR be used in the ENTIRE build up to each and every goal. And remember, don't cross the big 6, because what the big 6 want, eventually the big 6 get! (Via their mates at SKY!!)

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Re: VAR changes

Post by bfcjg » Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:15 pm

It wont go away unfortunately.

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Re: VAR changes

Post by ClaretTony » Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:24 pm

Dark Cloud wrote:Yes, tbf CT I'm sure he (and I) both knew that. I think the point being made was if the intention is to wipe out erroneously awarded goals, then that COULD definitely be interpreted as one, especially if someone wanted to be pedantic about it and the way things are going it wouldn't surprise me if a couple of years down the line VAR IS being used in situations like that. If that Barnes goal had been scored against Liverpool, all hell would have broken loose over it spanning several days and Klopp would probably be restrained in a straight jacket right now, spitting feathers all over his padded cell and demanding VAR be used in the ENTIRE build up to each and every goal. And remember, don't cross the big 6, because what the big 6 want, eventually the big 6 get! (Via their mates at SKY!!)
Once the corner is given it’s a different phase of play for the goal - I think, but there again I’m as confused as anyone with bloody VAR.
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Re: VAR changes

Post by Claret-On-A-T-Rex » Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:35 pm

ClaretTony wrote:Once the corner is given it’s a different phase of play for the goal - I think, but there again I’m as confused as anyone with bloody VAR.
If Wood's goal had have been given we would be seeing a lot more of that incredible cross from McNeil, it would be rightly famous.
The ball flew onto his forehead like a heat seeking missile. It left Wood with the simple job of nodding his head, it wasn't just the goal that any striker could score, it was the goal anybody's granny could score.
Probably the greatest Burnley goal never scored.
I was gutted when VAR ruled it out but by god, let's not kid ourselves, if McNeil can do that with any sort of consistency he's a Real Madrid level player.
Has someone made a gif out of it yet?

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Re: VAR changes

Post by Dark Cloud » Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:40 pm

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:If Wood's goal had have been given we would be seeing a lot more of that incredible cross from McNeil, it would be rightly famous.
The ball flew onto his forehead like a heat seeking missile. It left Wood with the simple job of nodding his head, it wasn't just the goal that any striker could score, it was the goal anybody's granny could score.
Probably the greatest Burnley goal never scored.
I was gutted when VAR ruled it out but by god, let's not kid ourselves, if McNeil can do that with any sort of consistency he's a Real Madrid level player.
Has someone made a gif out of it yet?
Totally agree. It was a hell of goal and such a shame it didn't stand for the sake of a fraction of an inch, so will never be remembered and replayed. It was also so, so unfortunate that minutes earlier an equally fantastic cross by McNeil was only JUST cut out, just as Hendrick was about to head it home.

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Re: VAR changes

Post by Claret-On-A-T-Rex » Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:40 pm

Accuracy, trajectory, speed. All perfect.
Power and technique, the curve of the ball, the weight of the pass, all perfect.
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Re: VAR changes

Post by Claret » Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:43 pm

F*ck VAR.
F*ck VAR and all its ridiculous interfering where it’s not wanted.
F*ck all the boll*cks of spending a decade working out if Chris Wood’s big toe was further forward than Cresswell’s knob.
F*ck VAR and the unbelievably stupid decisions they reach; decisions that no one, absolutely no one, thinks has improved the game.
What the game needs is respect for the officials (did you see Guardiola at Liverpool?) and the shaming of diving cheats and those absolute snowflakes who feign injury.
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Re: VAR changes

Post by Ashingtonclaret46 » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:12 pm

ClaretTony wrote:Once the corner is given it’s a different phase of play for the goal - I think, but there again I’m as confused as anyone with bloody VAR.
Correct CT. The interesting thing in this is that we were given two more corners on Saturday which should not have been given if the AR had given the offside decisions which he should have done.
He missed them, we got the corners but didn't score so no harm done.

This is happening in lots of games now but is never picked up because VAR does not get involved. The whole thing is getting ridiculous, however, sadly, it will not get any better because we now have 7 officials doing a job that was designed for 3, therefore, because of the comms between the officials, you have more opinions to consider! We know, from discussions on this board that, the more opinions you intorduce the bigger the difference! Sad isn't it?
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Re: VAR changes

Post by DCWat » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:38 pm

The only good news from that I take from this, is that despite their positive comments about VAR, it’s obvious that they’re starting to realise how badly it has been received by fans.

I’m for it, if it’s a) only used for ‘clear and obvious’ (not off sides that need to be looked at numerous times and from multiple angles) b) done quickly and c) communicated effectively throughout.

Failing that - **** VAR!

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Re: VAR changes

Post by Hibsclaret » Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:31 pm

My biggest issue with VAR is the ‘clear and obvious’ nonsense which ensures match by match we have inconsistencies and different outcomes for similar instances..dependent upon what the ref has or hasn’t given. This is easily remedied imo - where the VAR has any doubt they should advise the onfield ref to check the on pitch monitor. Currently it is all about an imaginary threshold of inaccuracy to the original decision which is nonsense...

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Re: VAR changes

Post by dsr » Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:11 am

evensteadiereddie wrote:I think VAR is fine for offsides because whatever the margin may be, tiny or otherwise, it is either offside or not.

...
Obviously you're entitled to your opinion, but why are you in favour of the new ruile? Under the old rule, Wood's goal would have been allowed because he was level, and the VAR check would have taken 10 seconds to establish that he was level and the goal would stand.

But under the new rule, where "level" no longer means "within the limits of human eye" and means instead "to the nearest millimetre", we have two new factors in goalscoring. One is that a lot more goals will be disallowed that would have been legal last year; the other is that a lot more goals, whether they are allowed or not, will not become official for three or four minutes because VAR is checking.

And you have no problem with that? (Nor do many other people, not just you, of course.) Why do you not have a problem with that? Why do you not think this is an almighty problem, and one that would be easily solved, just by telling refs that the rule hasn't changed and that level means to the extent that a linesman can reasonably judge it?

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Re: VAR changes

Post by ClaretLoup » Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:39 am

VAR the way that it is operated at the moment is like having two crap refs instead of just one.
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Re: VAR changes

Post by RammyClaret61 » Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:16 am

Refereeing by committee. Just doesn’t work.
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Re: VAR changes

Post by Hibsclaret » Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:25 am

The rules here highlight one of the problems where inconsistency is guaranteed before you even start with VAR....

HANDLING THE BALL

It is an offence if a player:
deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, including moving the hand/arm towards the ball
gains possession/control of the ball after it has touched their hand/arm and then:
scores in the opponents’ goal
creates a goal-scoring opportunity
scores in the opponents’ goal directly from their hand/arm, even if accidental, including by the goalkeeper

It is USUALLY an offence if a player:
touches the ball with their hand/arm when:
the hand/arm has made their body unnaturally bigger
the hand/arm is above/beyond their shoulder level (unless the player deliberately plays the ball which then touches their hand/arm)
The above offences apply even if the ball touches a player’s hand/arm directly from the head or body (including the foot) of another player who is close.

Except for the above offences, it is not USUALLY an offence if the ball touches a player’s hand/arm:
directly from the player’s own head or body (including the foot)
directly from the head or body (including the foot) of another player who is close
if the hand/arm is close to the body and does not make the body unnaturally bigger
when a player falls and the hand/arm is between the body and the ground to support the body, but not extended laterally or vertically away from the body
The goalkeeper has the same restrictions on handling the ball as any other player outside the penalty area. If the goalkeeper handles the ball inside their
penalty area when not permitted to do so, an indirect free kick is awarded but there is no disciplinary sanction.

If they remove the 2 USUALLY words it should give us better consistency on handball......

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