Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

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houseboy
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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by houseboy » Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:20 pm

Rick_Muller wrote:I'm overweight and I have no right to complain about being called fat because I am, but call me a git and I'm offended (only a little :D ) because I am not a git

:D
Agree with you totally bud. I find it odd that it is often considered 'offensive' when simply describing someone accurately. The politically correct have decreed that to accurately describe someone is sometimes offensive and sometimes not. Life is interesting don't you think?
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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by Blackrod » Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:21 pm

I haven’t heard racism at Turf Moor for years and years and think there is now a far greater mix of attendees. That might just be in the area I sit. If I heard it I’d certainly pull them up for it or have a word with a steward. I can’t undersyand people being racist towards other teams players if you have players of a different race on your own team. It doesn’t add up. It means you want to upset your own players with something deep rooted not just beacuse they are having a poor game. May be more common at away matches. Seen some real Neanderthals at away games but thankfully don’t see them at Turf Moor.

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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by Devils_Advocate » Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:32 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:There are two people named on that report who were found not guilty.
Can you see why I ask the question if anyone has been found guilty?
Not really. If people are witnessing and hearing racist language on the Turf why does it matter whether the courts are able to make a charge stick. On the thread about the two lads at Brighton someone posted a first hand account of being on an away coach with them and witnessing their racist behaviour so just because they didnt get convicted doesnt mean they arent racists.

Again back in the early 2000's the courts wouldnt pursue prossecutions of a lot of these sexual abuse cases as it was seen that the evidence wasn't strong enough to convict. It didn't mean these bast*rds weren't guilty and there wasn't a problem cos there was, it just meant it took society itself to stand up to it and force recognition of it

Its apologists like you who make society's job a lot harder than it should be

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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by houseboy » Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:47 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Not really. If people are witnessing and hearing racist language on the Turf why does it matter whether the courts are able to make a charge stick. On the thread about the two lads at Brighton someone posted a first hand account of being on an away coach with them and witnessing their racist behaviour so just because they didnt get convicted doesnt mean they arent racists.

Again back in the early 2000's the courts wouldnt pursue prossecutions of a lot of these sexual abuse cases as it was seen that the evidence wasn't strong enough to convict. It didn't mean these bast*rds weren't guilty and there wasn't a problem cos there was, it just meant it took society itself to stand up to it and force recognition of it

Its apologists like you who make society's job a lot harder than it should be
This is true. It is the difference between REAL guilt and LEGAL guilt. And the two are often mutually exclusive. To use an extreme example, Al Capone was one of the most notorious and hi-profile gangsters in history and was guilty of many bad things, including murder (or at least arranging same), running rackets, protection and I believe controlling prostitution. What was he imprisoned for in the end? Tax evasion. Legally they couldn't get him even though all the world and his wife knew what he was. Just because he was never convicted of his crimes didn't make him innocent.

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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by Grumps » Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:25 pm

Rick_Muller wrote:not sure what point you're trying to make, the banter in that area is superb at times and very enjoyable too. But to compare banter to outright blatant racism is plainly wrong.

For the record, I moved into that area because I wanted to increase my season tickets from 2 to 3 and it was the only area I could get 3 together.
Perhaps your idea of banter, and mine are different, I don't class what has been reported on this thread as happening at the Chelsea game, and no doubt other games, as banter, but that's perhaps cos iam an old grump
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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by Greenmile » Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:26 pm

houseboy wrote:Sorry to point out bud but while we are talking 'offensive' language isn't 'fat git' a tad out of order? Relating to someone's appearance when being critical is wrong is it not? I find that someone posting on this particular thread using that king of language a little odd. Or is being offended not extended to everyone?
Nice to see the Jimmy Hill defence get a run out.


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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:28 pm

Hey, nothing to see here!
Last edited by Lancasterclaret on Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by Quickenthetempo » Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:52 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Just letting you know that she successfully sued a UKIP candidate who tried to claim that.

You might be better deleting it.
Who sued who?

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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:55 pm

What you claimed Labour MPs did resulted in the UKIP candidate for Rotherham getting his ass handed to him in court by the three Labour MPs in the area.

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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by jedi_master » Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:57 pm

Simply put, it’s an embarrassment and it has to change.

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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by pushpinpussy » Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:59 pm

Waking someone up from a nap should be considered a hate crime!
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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by Quickenthetempo » Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:01 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:What you claimed Labour MPs did resulted in the UKIP candidate for Rotherham getting his ass handed to him in court by the three Labour MPs in the area.
Was the tv program about the keighley one wrong? Where they begged the Labour MP to do something about it?

Anyway cheers for looking after us, it's edited now.

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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by Local cricketer » Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:54 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:Was the tv program about the keighley one wrong? Where they begged the Labour MP to do something about it?

Anyway cheers for looking after us, it's edited now.
If mp's are trawling a football message board looking for reasons to sue then it's no wonder the country's gone to the dogs :lol:
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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by Greenmile » Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:14 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Just letting you know that she successfully sued a UKIP candidate who tried to claim that.

You might be better deleting it.
If it is actionable, presumably you’re at risk yourself now, Lancs, given the unedited version now only appears in your post 57.

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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:09 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:Was the tv program about the keighley one wrong? Where they begged the Labour MP to do something about it?

Anyway cheers for looking after us, it's edited now.
Nah bother

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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:12 pm

Greenmile wrote:If it is actionable, presumably you’re at risk yourself now, Lancs, given the unedited version now only appears in your post 57.
I've no idea to be honest.

Don't think its a good idea of accusing people of stuff when they have already won in court over exactly the same claim.

But I'll delete mine as well

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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by evensteadiereddie » Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:38 pm

houseboy wrote:It's the 'fat' bit that is allegedly offensive mate. You've actually left in the wrong bit. :lol:

Not to worry mate, no one's going to hang you for it.

By the way you can call me 'pedantic' and that is okay I think. But you mustn't call me a 'white pedant'. :lol: :lol:

Aye but he is fat. Bloody fat. :lol: and, at least as far as I'm concerned, Salah isn't " a ******* Egyptian ****."
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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by Rileybobs » Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:38 pm

houseboy wrote:Agree with you totally bud. I find it odd that it is often considered 'offensive' when simply describing someone accurately. The politically correct have decreed that to accurately describe someone is sometimes offensive and sometimes not. Life is interesting don't you think?
Can you give an example of when it may be considered ‘offensive’ to describe someone accurately?
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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by Greenmile » Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:42 pm

Rileybobs wrote:Can you give an example of when it may be considered ‘offensive’ to describe someone accurately?
Whenever I call Boris Johnson a despicable lying c***?
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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by Stayingup » Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:01 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:Of course I would.

I think you're thinking of the MPs that turned a blind eye.
Not forgetting the police who seemed to.have two blind eyrs in that matter.

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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by Stayingup » Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:04 pm

Greenmile wrote:Whenever I call Boris Johnson a despicable lying c***?
Haha. Gives you away under your new name. Own up!!!

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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by Greenmile » Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:10 pm

Stayingup wrote:Haha. Gives you away under your new name. Own up!!!

:?: :?:

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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by Devils_Advocate » Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:22 pm

Greenmile wrote::?: :?:
He thinks you're turtle cos you used the word c*nt.

Dont worry though as this is the poster who still thinks the Russians are in bed with Corbyn and not Johnson's and Farage's paymasters - in other words he's a bit of a dimwit
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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by Greenmile » Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:28 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:He thinks you're turtle cos you used the word c*nt.

Dont worry though as this is the poster who still thinks the Russians are in bed with Corbyn and not Johnson's and Farage's paymasters - in other words he's a bit of a dimwit
Ah ok. So he thinks IT created a sleeper account three and a half years ago and made over two thousand posts during that time (occasionally talking to myself), just so he / I could carry on posting after being banned.

Wouldn’t it be easier just to create a brand new account with a VPN or something?

“Dimwit” feels a bit generous, to be honest.

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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by Devils_Advocate » Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:36 pm

Greenmile wrote:“Dimwit” feels a bit generous, to be honest.

I go on holiday next week so I am in a happy and charitable mood

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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by joey13 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:01 pm

ClaretTony wrote:Even worse at Sheffield United
I was so close to walking out at halftime, and not come over for a match since , although I’m due to come over for the Bournemouth game .

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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by TsarBomba » Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:51 pm

Off the top of my head, I’ve reported a good 5/6 incidents to either stewards or Police regarding racism in the past 10 years or so. Not a huge number, but enough to make me realise that racism is still an issue at Burnley and in football in general.

I’m absolutely sure that on most if not all of those occasions too, there were stewards who blatantly heard it and did nothing about it. I have found the stewards at Burnley to be completely disinterested when I have reported it.

The most obscene racism I’ve heard in a long time was at Leicester away under Howe when we were beat 4-0. The away end was deathly quiet because we were dire, and one lad in a group of half a dozen decided to sing racist songs about Leicester and its inhabitants. For a good 10-15 minutes too. Hundreds of Burnley fans heard it, as well as a number of stewards. Everyone was clearly uncomfortable and disapproved, but no-one moved. I wasn’t close enough to do so, but nobody near him told him to shut up, and the stewards just sat there and watched. I told a Copper on the way out as I left early, and from what I can gather, he was nicked after the game. If we don’t make any effort to self Police, then that’s half the battle lost already.

Do we have more of a problem at Burnley than any other club? Probably not. But it’s something we still need to tackle head on.
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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by Bullabill » Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:46 am

TsarBomba ..............

"I wasn’t close enough to do so, but nobody near him told him to shut up, .........."

Close enough to hear him but not near enough for him to hear you??

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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by nil_desperandum » Fri Nov 22, 2019 6:09 am

houseboy wrote:It's the 'fat' bit that is allegedly offensive mate. You've actually left in the wrong bit. :lol:
I think he got that. In fact, I'm sure he did.

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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by Indecisive » Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:53 am

I know things have changed but the racist chanting by what felt like a majority of the away end at Ewood Park still makes me feel uncomfortable and a bit embarrassed.

I think maybe the club could be a bit more proactive with managing the behaviour of some ‘fans’ particularly at away games. I’ve definitely seen some behaviours (probably not too much racism these days) that surely could be addressed by the club. Have some spotters in the away end... maybe work with the other club to identify fans who’s behaviours cross the line? Or is it felt like it’s the other clubs responsibility when the incidents happen in their ground.
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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by Lord Beamish » Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:10 am

Greenmile wrote:
“Dimwit” feels a bit generous, to be honest.
May I suggest, “low-wattage gurgler”?
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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:23 am

Indecisive wrote:I know things have changed but the racist chanting by what felt like a majority of the away end at Ewood Park still makes me feel uncomfortable and a bit embarrassed.

I think maybe the club could be a bit more proactive with managing the behaviour of some ‘fans’ particularly at away games. I’ve definitely seen some behaviours (probably not too much racism these days) that surely could be addressed by the club. Have some spotters in the away end... maybe work with the other club to identify fans who’s behaviours cross the line? Or is it felt like it’s the other clubs responsibility when the incidents happen in their ground.
That match was as bad as I've seen.

Absolutely no defence for it, and it made a bad day worse.

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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by SammyBoy » Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:33 am

There was a guy in front of me vs Spurs either last year or the year before that actually turned to his guffawing pals and did the "slanty eyes" thing when Son came on, and then proceeded to make up an improv song about how he eats dogs, he was genuinely acting like he'd never seen a Korean bloke. Then later in the same game I heard someone further down the row from me shout something about ovens :shock: I guess we're a broad church..

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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by Andreshotboots » Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:47 am

SammyBoy wrote:There was a guy in front of me vs Spurs either last year or the year before that actually turned to his guffawing pals and did the "slanty eyes" thing when Son came on, and then proceeded to make up an improv song about how he eats dogs, he was genuinely acting like he'd never seen a Korean bloke. Then later in the same game I heard someone further down the row from me shout something about ovens :shock: I guess we're a broad church..
Man United sung that song about "eating dogs in your own country" about Park Ji-sung for ages.. Sung by thousands of them. Nothing reported there though..not condoning anything that undoubtedly does still happen at the Turf but my point is, stats can be interpreted as you wish and when it suits.

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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by houseboy » Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:42 am

Rileybobs wrote:Can you give an example of when it may be considered ‘offensive’ to describe someone accurately?
That's easy - black. But only when attached to an insult. Otherwise it is an accurate description.
The abbreviation of Pakistani (don't think I can write it on here) is considered offensive but I have had many Pakistani friends who refer to each other as such - so that appears to be only offensive if used by a non-Pakistani.
I could go on mate but you get the drift. It's not that I necessarily agree with these terms as I don't want to or wish to offend anyone but in answer to the question yes, it is possible to cause 'offence' when simply describing someone. Fat is another accurate description (as has already been touched upon) but the politically correct have deemed it 'inappropriate' (a word I have come to hate in the last few years by the way).

The problem I and many others have these days is the fact that there are a growing number of terms that seem to be now 'offensive' and it is getting increasingly difficult to say anything without offending someone. The really odd thing is that some are deemed offensive by third parties when the people it may be aimed at don't necessarily get offended by it. Someone on here yesterday was going on about Spurs fans singing about 'Yids'. If they don't find it offensive why should anyone else, especially as Yid and Yiddish are legitimate terms. Yiddish is the Jewish language - nothing more. At some point Yid became offensive.

Hey what do I know mate, I only question stuff that either interests me or bemuses me but I can honestly say I try not to offend anyone (but it is becoming increasingly difficult). :D :D

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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by nil_desperandum » Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:05 am

Blackrod wrote: I can’t understand people being racist towards other teams players if you have players of a different race on your own team. It doesn’t add up.
So what are you implying? That it would be ok if we had an ethnically "pure" white team?
(What an odd thing to post).

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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by TVC15 » Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:06 am

Agree Houseboy that in some situations it is hard to know what you should be saying - so usually better to say nothing I find for fear of offending.
That said you are spot on in terms of context
Fat so and so ; Black so and so etc...has always been offensive - they are not terms of endearment and neither are they meant as factually accurate descriptions !!

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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by Greenmile » Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:48 am

houseboy wrote:That's easy - black. But only when attached to an insult. Otherwise it is an accurate description.
The abbreviation of Pakistani (don't think I can write it on here) is considered offensive but I have had many Pakistani friends who refer to each other as such - so that appears to be only offensive if used by a non-Pakistani.
I could go on mate but you get the drift. It's not that I necessarily agree with these terms as I don't want to or wish to offend anyone but in answer to the question yes, it is possible to cause 'offence' when simply describing someone. Fat is another accurate description (as has already been touched upon) but the politically correct have deemed it 'inappropriate' (a word I have come to hate in the last few years by the way).

The problem I and many others have these days is the fact that there are a growing number of terms that seem to be now 'offensive' and it is getting increasingly difficult to say anything without offending someone. The really odd thing is that some are deemed offensive by third parties when the people it may be aimed at don't necessarily get offended by it. Someone on here yesterday was going on about Spurs fans singing about 'Yids'. If they don't find it offensive why should anyone else, especially as Yid and Yiddish are legitimate terms. Yiddish is the Jewish language - nothing more. At some point Yid became offensive.

Hey what do I know mate, I only question stuff that either interests me or bemuses me but I can honestly say I try not to offend anyone (but it is becoming increasingly difficult). :D :D
Context matters. In the Stewart Lee bit I posted earlier (which you should watch if you haven’t already - it’s brilliant and objectively funny), he uses the N word repeatedly. As a middle-aged middle-class white guy, you’d think this would be offensive and unacceptable, but given the context it really isn’t.

It also explains, in an amusing fashion, why the N word used as an insult is worse than “chinny” (or “fat git”, if you prefer).

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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by houseboy » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:10 am

Greenmile wrote:Context matters. In the Stewart Lee bit I posted earlier (which you should watch if you haven’t already - it’s brilliant and objectively funny), he uses the N word repeatedly. As a middle-aged middle-class white guy, you’d think this would be offensive and unacceptable, but given the context it really isn’t.

It also explains, in an amusing fashion, why the N word used as an insult is worse than “chinny” (or “fat git”, if you prefer).
The 'N' word (ffs sake we can't even use it when actually discussing it now :lol: :lol:) is one of the ones that gets me most. It is considered highly offensive (and maybe it is) but West Indians and Black Americans use it all the time when talking to each other. Also George Burns the American comedian was criticised for telling Jewish jokes - and he was Jewish. Where does it all end bud. ;)

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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by Greenmile » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:17 am

houseboy wrote:The 'N' word (ffs sake we can't even use it when actually discussing it now :lol: :lol:) is one of the ones that gets me most. It is considered highly offensive (and maybe it is) but West Indians and Black Americans use it all the time when talking to each other. Also George Burns the American comedian was criticised for telling Jewish jokes - and he was Jewish. Where does it all end bud. ;)
You’re just proving my point - context matters more then the words themselves. It wouldn’t be offensive or unacceptable if you chose to write the N word in full in the context of this conversation, but I’m not comfortable doing so myself, so I’ve gone with “the N word”.

I don’t think you’re racist at all, but you have a worrying habit of repeating the talking points used by racist apologists (eg “It’s PC gone mad”, “why does everyone have to take offence?” “Why can’t I use the N word when rappers use it all the time?” “I don’t even know what I’m allowed to say any more nowadays” etc etc)
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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by AlargeClaret » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:27 am

Not heard anything even remotely racist in donkeys yrs only thing I recall was leics away when a smallish group of dickheads were singing “ you’re just a town full of pakis” maybe 8/9 yrs ago ? On the Turf I’ve heard zilch from JHL or CFS . Always gonna get the odd boozed up coked up young d1ckhead from time to time but isn’t that just a reflection of life in general ?

Burnley is a poor town and hardly prosperous educated or enlightened but doesn’t that give Burnley a “ rough diamond” edge ?and being that little bit different and individual that sets us aside from plastic robotic uber conformist hellholes like Watford /Brighton/Leics/Arsenal et al ? Different , yes ,racist nah it’s virtually extinct

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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by houseboy » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:33 am

Greenmile wrote:You’re just proving my point - context matters more then the words themselves. It wouldn’t be offensive or unacceptable if you chose to write the N word in full in the context of this conversation, but I’m not comfortable doing so myself, so I’ve gone with “the N word”.

I don’t think you’re racist at all, but you have a worrying habit of repeating the talking points used by racist apologists (eg “It’s PC gone mad”, “why does everyone have to take offence?” “Why can’t I use the N word when rappers use it all the time?” “I don’t even know what I’m allowed to say any more nowadays” etc etc)
Firstly my reply to you WAS meant to prove you right - I was actually agreeing with you. :D Sorry if it might not have come across that way.
Secondly yes I do seem to contradict myself with this topic and the reason is simple; you are right I am vehemently anti-racist but this may not always appear obvious because I also believe in freedom of speech. It might seem odd (and maybe it is) but whilst I try never to offend and hurt anyone I still defend the right of people to actually be 'offensive' if they wish. I don't want to go down the 'freedom of speech' road again on here, I'm tired of that argument, but I just mention it to try in some way to explain my dichotomy of thought on this. I suppose I just come from an era when 'sticks and stones can break my bones but words can never hurt me' was the general rule. Words can only really hurt if people let them - no-one ever died from an insult.
I hope this explains things a bit bud.
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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by Rileybobs » Fri Nov 22, 2019 2:59 pm

houseboy wrote:That's easy - black. But only when attached to an insult. Otherwise it is an accurate description.
The abbreviation of Pakistani (don't think I can write it on here) is considered offensive but I have had many Pakistani friends who refer to each other as such - so that appears to be only offensive if used by a non-Pakistani.
I could go on mate but you get the drift. It's not that I necessarily agree with these terms as I don't want to or wish to offend anyone but in answer to the question yes, it is possible to cause 'offence' when simply describing someone. Fat is another accurate description (as has already been touched upon) but the politically correct have deemed it 'inappropriate' (a word I have come to hate in the last few years by the way).

The problem I and many others have these days is the fact that there are a growing number of terms that seem to be now 'offensive' and it is getting increasingly difficult to say anything without offending someone. The really odd thing is that some are deemed offensive by third parties when the people it may be aimed at don't necessarily get offended by it. Someone on here yesterday was going on about Spurs fans singing about 'Yids'. If they don't find it offensive why should anyone else, especially as Yid and Yiddish are legitimate terms. Yiddish is the Jewish language - nothing more. At some point Yid became offensive.

Hey what do I know mate, I only question stuff that either interests me or bemuses me but I can honestly say I try not to offend anyone (but it is becoming increasingly difficult). :D :D
But referring to someone as black isn't offensive. As soon as it's attached to an insult it becomes offensive because you would be using the colour of someone's skin as a slur. The word 'paki' has been used for decades as a purely derogatory word to describe people of Pakistanti (and often other south asian) descent. That is why it's an unacceptable term. If Pakistani people want to use that term to describe each other then that doesn't make it any more acceptable.

You repeatedly say that you don't want to offend but find it hard not to. For me that's strange, because I hardly ever have to think twice about offending someone when I speak to them because it wouldn't cross my mind to call someone a 'paki' or 'black *******'. Times have changed and you seem out of touch.

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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by houseboy » Fri Nov 22, 2019 3:51 pm

Rileybobs wrote:But referring to someone as black isn't offensive. As soon as it's attached to an insult it becomes offensive because you would be using the colour of someone's skin as a slur. The word 'paki' has been used for decades as a purely derogatory word to describe people of Pakistanti (and often other south asian) descent. That is why it's an unacceptable term. If Pakistani people want to use that term to describe each other then that doesn't make it any more acceptable.

You repeatedly say that you don't want to offend but find it hard not to. For me that's strange, because I hardly ever have to think twice about offending someone when I speak to them because it wouldn't cross my mind to call someone a 'paki' or 'black *******'. Times have changed and you seem out of touch.
You just missed my point slightly I think bud. I don't use the term Paki or use black when connected with an insult. What I mean is that there are a growing number of terms and actions that are becoming more 'offensive' (by someone else's standards). As I have pointed out my wife's place of work (social services) says that 'fat' is offensive, even as a description never mind an insult. You are totally right that to call someone black is not offensive but then attach a word (any swear word or criticism) and it becomes offensive, which is why I find it a bit odd because then you can describe someone but if you describe them then use an insult it becomes a racist or offensive comment. I just find it interesting that a slight change of words can make an innocent comment offensive.
Here is a great example of how the politically correct have changed things in an odd way. I used to work in employment law and there are now some odd laws that should be observed strictly speaking (but mostly aren't thankfully). It is now unlawful, for instance, to comment on a person's appearance (especially a member of the opposite sex) as it can be construed as sexual harassment. If you or I were to say to a female colleague that her hair was looking nice or her clothes were nice she can, if she was so inclined, report you for sexual harassment. Now who doesn't like to be told they look nice, does anyone in this world not like to be told they look good? But someone somewhere decided that it was inappropriate to compliment someone.

This is what I get at when I say it's confusing. You say you don't have to think twice about speaking because it wouldn't cross your mind to say something offensive (and I totally believe you) but you could be doing so without even knowing, it is getting that way.

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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by Siddo » Fri Nov 22, 2019 6:16 pm

houseboy wrote:You just missed my point slightly I think bud. I don't use the term Paki or use black when connected with an insult. What I mean is that there are a growing number of terms and actions that are becoming more 'offensive' (by someone else's standards). As I have pointed out my wife's place of work (social services) says that 'fat' is offensive, even as a description never mind an insult. You are totally right that to call someone black is not offensive but then attach a word (any swear word or criticism) and it becomes offensive, which is why I find it a bit odd because then you can describe someone but if you describe them then use an insult it becomes a racist or offensive comment. I just find it interesting that a slight change of words can make an innocent comment offensive.
Here is a great example of how the politically correct have changed things in an odd way. I used to work in employment law and there are now some odd laws that should be observed strictly speaking (but mostly aren't thankfully). It is now unlawful, for instance, to comment on a person's appearance (especially a member of the opposite sex) as it can be construed as sexual harassment. If you or I were to say to a female colleague that her hair was looking nice or her clothes were nice she can, if she was so inclined, report you for sexual harassment. Now who doesn't like to be told they look nice, does anyone in this world not like to be told they look good? But someone somewhere decided that it was inappropriate to compliment someone.

This is what I get at when I say it's confusing. You say you don't have to think twice about speaking because it wouldn't cross your mind to say something offensive (and I totally believe you) but you could be doing so without even knowing, it is getting that way.
It might give you a better insight if you read about protected characteristics.
Calling someone fat is not against any law, but in the workplace it would probably be classed as bullying or harassment.

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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by ClaretTony » Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:50 am

Indecisive wrote:I know things have changed but the racist chanting by what felt like a majority of the away end at Ewood Park still makes me feel uncomfortable and a bit embarrassed.

I think maybe the club could be a bit more proactive with managing the behaviour of some ‘fans’ particularly at away games. I’ve definitely seen some behaviours (probably not too much racism these days) that surely could be addressed by the club. Have some spotters in the away end... maybe work with the other club to identify fans who’s behaviours cross the line? Or is it felt like it’s the other clubs responsibility when the incidents happen in their ground.
Not sure which match at Ewood you are referring to but it was horrendous there back in 2001. Our club’s public response then was to issue a statement thanking the fans for creating a family atmosphere.

I was in a meeting when it was discussed. One senior member of staff said there had been no problems while another said: “They were chanting ‘You’re just a small town in Yorkshire’ and that was far worse.

Thankfully those two members of staff are now long gone.

Worst I ever heard was at Bradford City on the day we went top of the league. On that occasion I did report it to the police.

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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by Claretmatt4 » Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:16 am

nil_desperandum wrote:So what are you implying? That it would be ok if we had an ethnically "pure" white team?
(What an odd thing to post).
Why did you post it then?

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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by nil_desperandum » Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:32 am

Claretmatt4 wrote:Why did you post it then?
Who me or him?
I simply questioned the absurdity of his post, - which I quoted in my response.
As it reads to me, he says we shouldn't abuse "players of colour" in the opposition whilst we have similar in our own, which seems to me to miss the point entirely.
Racial abuse is unacceptable in any context, surely?

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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by Claretmatt4 » Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:22 am

You. I think you've drawn a very odd conclusion.

I assumed he was just saying it was contradictory to racially abuse players when we have black players on our team. I don't think he was saying it was acceptable!

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Re: Burnley Fans & Hate Crime

Post by Cleveleys_claret » Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:04 pm

houseboy wrote:Someone on here yesterday was going on about Spurs fans singing about 'Yids'. If they don't find it offensive why should anyone else, especially as Yid and Yiddish are legitimate terms. Yiddish is the Jewish language - nothing more. At some point Yid became offensive.

Hey what do I know mate, I only question stuff that either interests me or bemuses me but I can honestly say I try not to offend anyone (but it is becoming increasingly difficult). :D :D
That will have been me. I would hazard a guess that less than 5% of the Spurs fans at the stadium are in fact Jewish. Therefore the ones singing it arent Jewish yet are making fun of the Jewish community as part of their "funny" reportoire is about being circumsized. Now I think I recall David Baddiel saying as a jewish man he felt uncomfortable and last season a couple of Koreans also felt discriminated against when Spurs fans started singing "funny songs" about Koreans because of there love for Son

* Replace "funny" for "racist"
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