Apart from play West Ham every week how do we get out of this mess?

In learning how to score a few more goals the defence seems weaker than anytime over the last 15 years.

The midfield (without Westwood) seem to like passing backwards, turning Ben Mee into the playmaker.

The front two have scored plenty of goals but struggle with basic lay off balls to get others in play.

Confidence has drained (as expected with losing 6 out of 8 games).

Will adding pace and power work straight away and fix it?

Have a plan B.
Be willing to drop underperforming players.
To be able to play a system other than 442 if needed.
Change the game plan for different opposition.
Inject some pace.
Coach how to control and pass a ball which should be a given in the PL.
Not waste cash on players who are clearly not good enough ( Lennon, J Rod etc, Brady etc)
Buy a proper midfield with some guts ( Marney and Barton had some)
Stop doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different outcomes. Most fans expected a thrashing at Spurs and some predicted the score as they could see the clueless drab performances leading up to it.

Don’t play Lowton.

Quickenthetempo wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:28 am

Apart from play West Ham every week how do we get out of this mess?

In learning how to score a few more goals the defence seems weaker than anytime over the last 15 years.

The midfield (without Westwood) seem to like passing backwards, turning Ben Mee into the playmaker.

The front two have scored plenty of goals but struggle with basic lay off balls to get others in play.

Confidence has drained (as expected with losing 6 out of 8 games).

Will adding pace and power work straight away and fix it?

Not knocking Westwood, I respect his workrate, but if we are reliant on him to put in a performance then it speaks volumes about our recruitment. Poor at best.

Stayingup wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:51 am

Not knocking Westwood, I respect his workrate, but if we are reliant on him to put in a performance then it speaks volumes about our recruitment. Poor at best.

Exactly, the fact that we're missing Ashley Westwood highlights just how poor our midfield really is.

Quickenthetempo wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:28 am

Apart from play West Ham every week how do we get out of this mess?

In learning how to score a few more goals the defence seems weaker than anytime over the last 15 years.

The midfield (without Westwood) seem to like passing backwards, turning Ben Mee into the playmaker.

The front two have scored plenty of goals but struggle with basic lay off balls to get others in play.

Confidence has drained (as expected with losing 6 out of 8 games).

Will adding pace and power work straight away and fix it?

Important not to overreact. As last week we couldve gone top 6 next week we could go bottom 3. Thats how tight this league is and some of us got complacent last week before palace. We are still in a battle and this league is always tough.

Missing Barnes and Wood is crucial. As they are so good together. Without that from the team we are a different side altogether.

But we are also missing energy, fight and bite. The three players who demonstrate that most are barnes, bardsley and westwood. All three missing. That said we shouldnt be so reliable on three players like that for spirit.

Leadership is the big thing though. I cant see many captains in that squad and none on the pitch yesterday. That was the biggest mistake losing Heaton. In Pope and Hart we have two good keepers. But neither are leaders. I could hear Heaton in front of the JML from the CFS. I cant hear pope when hes at our end!

Comaplacency is also a big thing. Mee knows he is guaranteed the shirt and as captain cant see how Dyche will drop him. But hes been abysmal for weeks. Tarkowski more cocksure than poor. If Gibson cant get a game now he never will. Id be tempted to play both him and Long tbh.

Sean not making changes at half time yesterday was criminal for me. Ok we had lost the game. But sending that same 11 out sent out totally the wrong message. It didnt say 'thats unnaceptable'.

Finally invest wiseley. Quality over quantity. Over 20m on Vydra and Rodriguez plus at least 60 or 70k a week in wages between them is not good enough. Particularly when Vydra doesnt feature. Invest it more wisely.

Finally look abroad. Get someone who wants to come to this league andprove themselves. Be more ambitious and creative with our business.

I think we will be ok. But its looking a lot more nervy than it should.

The scary thing is that Spurs were tight and aggresive. Our strength. We showed none of it.

We don't go overboard, for a start.

Whilst our overall defensive record was (and certainly now is!) of some concern, we've kept 5 clean sheets so far this season, which is the 3rd most in the league behind Palace and Leicester. We've been overwhelmed a bit against the top teams (with and without Westwood - he's not the magic answer), but otherwise, apart from against Sheffield United we've been fairly solid.

For what it is worth, I thought that yesterday we did OK individually and for long periods we played OK. But we have a bit of a problem in full back areas (our full backs aren't as effective as they used to be, and they aren't getting the help from our wide players that they used to get), and the spaces between our midfield 4 and back 4 were at times too big. The latter is partly a result of the fact that teams have spent a lot of time watching us now for four years, and they've worked out how to help stop us building our attacks the way we've traditionally done so.

How do we improve? Partly, we've got to accept that weeks like this one will happen from time to time. A week ago, we were looking at going 5th with a positive result against Palace. There's probably a difference between what we need to do away from home versus at home, too - away from home, we need to get the two banks of four more compact, and the wide players doing more defensively. That might involve McNeil - who is a wonderful attacking talent but increasingly being targeted defensively - moving into a freer role behind a lone striker.

At home, we probably need to be a bit cleverer. Against Newcastle we'll face a similar threat to the one we faced against Palace - a team sat deep, looking to hit us on the counter with pace. We'll need to show more movement in the final third to unlock them, and make damn sure we help the full backs to keep the back door a bit more firmly locked. I'd like to see Rodriguez keep his place, and I'd hope there'd be a focus in training this week on the sort of interplay and rotation in midfield -wide players coming narrow, Jay dropping behind them - that might make us a bit more a more difficult proposition to defend against than we were against Palace.

In the short term, we need Wood/Barnes back in a 4-4-2, with Westwood back in CM and Taylor at LB. That by itself will improve things immensely.

Longer term, as mentioned some sort of Plan B, which I'm not sure we've really had since SD has been here. Like it or not, he's done a great job for us so far, but he's lacks in several departments, tactics/subs often being one of them.

January we need to keep hold of McNeil (suicide if we sell, imo) and bring in at least a couple of players good enough to be genuine starters. January is of course difficult and it often means paying over the odds, especially if a player is playing in the Championship and their team is looking like promotion.

But I'll feel much more confident with Wood/Barnes, Taylor and Westwood back in the side. JBG would be great, but looks like he's a long way off yet.

claretspice wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:59 am

We don't go overboard, for a start.

Whilst our overall defensive record was (and certainly now is!) of some concern, we've kept 5 clean sheets so far this season, which is the 3rd most in the league behind Palace and Leicester. We've been overwhelmed a bit against the top teams (with and without Westwood - he's not the magic answer), but otherwise, apart from against Sheffield United we've been fairly solid.

For what it is worth, I thought that yesterday we did OK individually and for long periods we played OK. But we have a bit of a problem in full back areas (our full backs aren't as effective as they used to be, and they aren't getting the help from our wide players that they used to get), and the spaces between our midfield 4 and back 4 were at times too big. The latter is partly a result of the fact that teams have spent a lot of time watching us now for four years, and they've worked out how to help stop us building our attacks the way we've traditionally done so.

How do we improve? Partly, we've got to accept that weeks like this one will happen from time to time. A week ago, we were looking at going 5th with a positive result against Palace. Against Newcastle we'll face a similar threat to the one we faced against Palace - a team sat deep, looking to hit us on the counter with pace. We'll need to show more movement in the final third to unlock them, and make damn sure we help the full backs to keep the back door a bit more firmly locked.

Agree with most of that. Apart from us doing ok. We were awful in every position.

FactualFrank wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:03 am

In the short term, we need Wood/Barnes back in a 4-4-2, with Westwood back in CM and Taylor at LB. That by itself will improve things immensely.

Longer term, as mentioned some sort of Plan B, which I'm not sure we've really had since SD has been here. Like it or not, he's done a great job for us so far, but he's lacks in several departments, tactics/subs often being one of them.

January we need to keep hold of McNeil (suicide if we sell, imo) and bring in at least a couple of players good enough to be genuine starters. January is of course difficult and it often means paying over the odds, especially if a player is playing in the Championship and their team is looking like promotion.

But I'll feel much more confident with Wood/Barnes, Taylor and Westwood back in the side. JBG would be great, but looks like he's a long way off yet.

Jbg is a huge miss. Crucial player.

Well said, that man.

The biggest problem for me is we have lost to all the top teams at home, therefore we have to play them away. We have beaten the lower teams at home but still have to play them away. Our battle is taking points off the middling sides something that is not one of our strengths.
The solution is in SDs hands but I’m not as despondent as some on here. Missing Barnes and Westwood is massive for us. JRod has been fine as a sub and poor as a starter. Nobody, in our squad, replaces Westwood. The problem being we won’t learn how long they are out for until they trot out for a match. This is poor on the clubs part, honesty costs nothing.
Apart from the CP result none of the other 5 defeats were unexpected. We’ll be reyt.UTC.

cricketfieldclarets wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:03 am

Agree with most of that. Apart from us doing ok. We were awful in every position.

Debated this the other night. We conceded goals too easily and were a bit open at times (the lack of compactness I mentioned above) but in truth in general play we were pretty competitive. The real chance count in the first half yesterday was 4 to 3 (5 to 3 if Alli was onside - I'm pretty sure he'd have been off on VAR had it been tested), the possession stats were 50/50, (and it wasn't just possession across the back 4, as the stats show - our forwards had plenty of touches). Which is the sort of output you'd take every time away at one of the big clubs. You can criticise the defending, but two of the three first half goals were worldies and you're unlucky if two of them get finished against you in the same 45. Pope didn't make a save of note in the 90 minutes. So it wasn't so dreadful.

As for the fond imagination we'd have been so much better with Barnes and Westy - just not borne out by the Liverpool and Chelsea home games I'm afraid, nor Sheff Utd away. They're good players who offer lots to us, but they're not magic bullets.

claretspice wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:12 am

Debated this the other night. We conceded goals too easily and were a bit open at times (the lack of compactness I mentioned above) but in truth in general play we were pretty competitive. The real chance count in the first half yesterday was 4 to 3 (5 to 3 if Alli was onside - I'm pretty sure he'd have been off on VAR had it been tested), the possession stats were 50/50, (and it wasn't just possession across the back 4, as the stats show - our forwards had plenty of touches). Which is the sort of output you'd take every time away at one of the big clubs. You can criticise the defending, but two of the three first half goals were worldies and you're unlucky if two of them get finished against you in the same 45. Pope didn't make a save of note in the 90 minutes. So it wasn't so dreadful.

As for the fond imagination we'd have been so much better with Barnes and Westy - just not borne out by the Liverpool and Chelsea home games I'm afraid, nor Sheff Utd away. They're good players who offer lots to us, but they're not magic bullets.

The stats make it look far healthier than it was. Did Gazzaniga have a save to make?

Sons goal said it all for me. There was absolutely zero fight or heart to stop him. And Kanes opener wasnt too dissimilar. Just let them have the freedom of the park.

Honestly think our players were overawed by the occasion and stadium as much as anything though.

The worrying thing is we seem to be rolling over, which has never really happened under Dyche, even against the best teams. I'm confident we'll have enough to stay up, but then what? Without strengthening this summer we'll just be in for more of the same next season.

Do your homework. The Spurs fans on our train home could not believe that Mee stood so far off Kane for the first goal as he can hit the net easily from anywhere 25 yards out or less. Same with his second when Tarky showed him on to his right.

Agree Loup, Ben should have been moving forward towards Kane to shut the space down, instead of adopting his block position, same for Kane's second as well even though Tarky should have done better in the first place.

I'm still hoping we can get Drinkwater match fit , then play him in the middle with Westwood .

I'm not claiming Westwood is Maradona but he usually plays forward and fast.

Hendrick slows it down and goes backwards.

Have we ever won a premier league game where we have had more possession?

short term We need 1 new decent cm that can come straight into the team. Long term we need rm,rb, and another cm. Center mid seems to always be our problem even way back to when marney for injured.

Drop Ben Mee and Jack Cork. Letting them know they aren't guaranteed to play every week no matter what might get them going a bit.

Dyche needs to adapt and we need to plan ahead. We are way too rigid and don’t change up our play for anyone or for any reason.

We also need some top notch recruitment, because the past couple of years have been a disaster and our squad is a ticking time bomb of older players with no pace.

We simply don’t have the quality or any flexibility regarding our set up and that needs to change.

Sign and use younger players, increase athleticism.

Recruitment - SD has already said we won’t be spending big in January if at all.

SalisburyClaret wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 08, 2019 2:28 pm

Recruitment - SD has already said we won’t be spending big in January if at all.

Use the resources we have a bit better. We are leaking goals for fun and we have a centre back on the bench we payed 15 million for and who was thought of at one time as one of the best young centre backs in the country. Why not give him a chance?

Remove the goalposts for all burnley games 38 points in the bag.... Bit boring I know but guarantees safety.

jrgbfc wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 08, 2019 2:33 pm

Use the resources we have a bit better. We are leaking goals for fun and we have a centre back on the bench we payed 15 million for and who was thought of at one time as one of the best young centre backs in the country. Why not give him a chance?

Agreed - can’t see him dropping Mee though so think the only way he’ll get a game is as part of a back five

By keeping a sense of perspective firstly. A win over palace would have taken us 5th...and talk in the press about CL football and Dyche being the Messiah. One week later and all change
A few observations;
Watching pope warming up in the extra goal, he only saved about 10% of shots. I still rate him in games, but pre match was surprising.
What has the new director of recruitment actually done?
Westwood is the cog that gets us going. Mops things up, starts moves, great free kicks
Taylor and Barnes are crucial
Bardsley and Lowton merely squad players
We need a new right back and cm in Jan

Marney&Mee wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:13 pm

By keeping a sense of perspective firstly. A win over palace would have taken us 5th...and talk in the press about CL football and Dyche being the Messiah. One week later and all change
A few observations;
Watching pope warming up in the extra goal, he only saved about 10% of shots. I still rate him in games, but pre match was surprising.
What has the new director of recruitment actually done?
Westwood is the cog that gets us going. Mops things up, starts moves, great free kicks
Taylor and Barnes are crucial
Bardsley and Lowton merely squad players
We need a new right back and cm in Jan

Agree with a lot of this,however we've needed a new RB & CM for at least a couple of transfer windows,surely now Defour's left the building the need for a CM is even more pressing,DD may be the answer,but on current evidence i wouldn't bank on it.

We're relying too much on certain players not getting injured, which they are doing such as Barnes, Wood, Westwood and Taylor. Even if it's only for a few games we don't seem to have many/any good enough replacements when any of those are out.

1)Stop backing off as soon as we lose the ball
2) Try to stay within 5 yards max of your man
3)Get on training pitch and learn to pass the ball to feet, and move to create, like other teams do.
4)Stop being to narrow as if to invite world class wingers, "Zaha, Sterling etc" and give them a free run to our goal.
5)Stop giving the ball away so much, I've watched for weeks our stats and pass accuracy, doesn't matter who we're playing it's always the same, worse. If we can't keep the ball for more than 30 seconds what can we expect, this can only be achieved by passing to feet and moving, giving players an option.
6)In dyche's own words, minimum requirements, maximum effort.!!
7)Back to point 1,it seems the tactic is to get back to our 18yard box as quick as possible, rely on blocks here and there, and missed chances, class players don't miss chances when given the space that we're giving.
It would be a good idea as a complete management, coach, and players on block maybe to watch the effort the Everton lads put in yesterday, it's called maximum, that way you get results
8)We simply can't keep standing still, we need to freshen up, we've got defour off the wage bill, and imo should soon have Hart off the wage bill, Lennon off the wage bill, vydra out for a reported 7.2m we continue to get the Premier league hand outs, it's time we speculated to accumulate, to get the fans back on side, we need 2 cm who are ready to play, rb who is ready to play, and a striker to replace vydra who is ready to play, and please a rm who is not injured every 3 games, some might think I'm having a real moan but I'm passionate about this club, and if it's not sorted by January we're heading in the wrong direction I'm afraid.
.

SalisburyClaret wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 08, 2019 2:52 pm

Agreed - can’t see him dropping Mee though so think the only way he’ll get a game is as part of a back five

Which is what we should have started with yesterday - especially given the weakness of our full backs

Gibson can play left back, why hasn't he been given a chance over Pieters ?
£15 million pound player.

There are actually some very constructive comments on here that all make sense-my worry is we pay a fortune on a manager, assistant manager and endless coaches. Are they not seeing what we are seeing

I think the manager and coaches need to be taking Chris Wilder out for a drink, get him p...ssed and find out how his secret. Forget Liverpool or Leicester's achievements this year -they dont beat what he is doing on his budget. The team has TOTAL belief

They are one of the very few teams in the PL who collectively not as strong as our squad. They have picked up some real bargains from the lower leagues and made them serious players. Not lost away in the PL, won again today from a losing position. And wow do these guys hound and fight you

I saw highlights of our game again today-no fight, no chasing back, no closing down, a lack of fitness based on the ambling back by the majority of players. They should be giving their wages back for the week. On that evidence we will not pick up another point

I think a few players have come to the end of the road with Burnley-hate to say that, but Lowton was dropped a few games ago for a disastrous performance and yesterday was caught out time and time again. At least Bards shows some fight and is one of the few vocal players we have.When fit he would be my captain. After conceding 11 goals in 3 games how can we keep Gibson out. Did Sean not try Tarks at right back in the Cup-a back 3 of Tarks Mee and Gibson has got to be better than yesterdays back four. Sadly many of our changes are restricted at present

Finally Jay Rod seems to be coming in for a lot of stick. I thought he was our best player yesterday in the first half.

warksclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 08, 2019 5:49 pm

There are actually some very constructive comments on here that all make sense-my worry is we pay a fortune on a manager, assistant manager and endless coaches. Are they not seeing what we are seeing

I think the manager and coaches need to be taking Chris Wilder out for a drink, get him p...ssed and find out how his secret. Forget Liverpool or Leicester's achievements this year -they dont beat what he is doing on his budget. The team has TOTAL belief

Until Sheff United finish 7th and get into Europe then their current achievements don't even come close to what SD has achieved in the Prem...

Spijed wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 08, 2019 5:56 pm

Until Sheff United finish 7th and get into Europe then their current achievements don't even come close to what SD has achieved in the Prem...

Oh yes they do. So far they have been a breath of fresh air in the PL. Let's be honest here, who would have taken any of their players ahead of ours?
They are doing really well, it doesn't devalue our achievements to admire the work that's gone into their tactical preparation and guts to give it a real go.

Spijed-they might just do it in their first year. But you know what I would rather finish 12th for three years running than 7th in the first and in danger of going down the next 2 years. SD did not have the start they have had in their first year-in fact we got relegated. Can't see Sherffield going down in their first year-not now

We've been 'out Burnleyed' on a number of occasions, but particularly by Sheff U.

We need to get our mojo back.

Blackrod wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:38 am

Have a plan B.
Be willing to drop underperforming players.
To be able to play a system other than 442 if needed.
Change the game plan for different opposition.
Inject some pace.
Coach how to control and pass a ball which should be a given in the PL.
Not waste cash on players who are clearly not good enough ( Lennon, J Rod etc, Brady etc)
Buy a proper midfield with some guts ( Marney and Barton had some)
Stop doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different outcomes. Most fans expected a thrashing at Spurs and some predicted the score as they could see the clueless drab performances leading up to it.

Bloody spot on mate

I think the differences between Burnley and Sheffield United are these.

They have a number of players who have done the rounds of Championship and often lower league clubs so this is an unexpected boost for most of them. Most of their players are at a good age, mainly in the twenties range with a few exceptions like McGoldrick. Mainly they have futures ahead of them. Some have possibilities maybe of moving on to bigger clubs or getting better deals at Sheffield. Many Burnley players are going over and down the hill at varying rates, alarmingly the squad has 14 players 29 or over!

Sheffield do not have a big-time Billy sat round the place soaking up £50k per week and the rest from elsewhere, who cannot even get match fit after three and a half months, although they have got Ravel Morrison.

ClaretLoup wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:01 pm

I think the differences between Burnley and Sheffield United are these.
Sheffield do not have a big-time Billy sat round the place soaking up £50k per week and the rest from elsewhere, who cannot even get match fit after three and a half months, although they have got Ravel Morrison.

It certainly can't help. A £100k pw professional footballer who doesn't need to play. It's hardly what we've come to expect from our players.

Saturday was bloody appalling. The posters who are trying to defend it either weren’t there, blind, or just like to debate for the sake of it. It was rancid.