ARTICLE: Clarets linked again with Bogle
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Re: ARTICLE: Clarets linked again with Bogle
Saw him on tv 3 times last season, wast very impressive, I don't think he would be going straight into the team.
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Re: ARTICLE: Clarets linked again with Bogle
Can't say I've seen much of him but he's still only 19 and has been a regular in the Derby side since the start of last season.
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Re: ARTICLE: Clarets linked again with Bogle
I wasn’t impressed with him. In fact every time they moved Holmes to RB he looked a far better player. After his recent misdemeanours I can’t see Holmes coming here.
Bogle is young and will have improvement in him.
Bogle is young and will have improvement in him.
Re: ARTICLE: Clarets linked again with Bogle
One for the future or straight in the starting eleven? I reckon we wouldn't see him until next season if he signs in January.
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Re: ARTICLE: Clarets linked again with Bogle
This is about as typical as you get. Linked with another next best championship player.
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Re: ARTICLE: Clarets linked again with Bogle
Playing regularly at 19, to go and sit on a bench for 2-3 years, some will do it. Derby will pay pretty well as well
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Re: ARTICLE: Clarets linked again with Bogle
Id much rather have rumours surrounding positions where we are in need of a lift.
Nothing wrong with Bogle, if thats who SD wants, but he isn't going to improve us now, and that's what we need.
Nothing wrong with Bogle, if thats who SD wants, but he isn't going to improve us now, and that's what we need.
Re: ARTICLE: Clarets linked again with Bogle
We need a right back who is good enough to play straight away. No point signing someone who isn't going to be first choice.Burnley1989 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:35 pmPlaying regularly at 19, to go and sit on a bench for 2-3 years, some will do it. Derby will pay pretty well as well
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Re: ARTICLE: Clarets linked again with Bogle
Put him straight in, nothing to lose.
Re: ARTICLE: Clarets linked again with Bogle
See I like that we’re pursuing a right back and I like that he’s someone with real sell on potential, but it is becoming a critical position where we need someone who is good enough right now.
Maybe he is, maybe he can make the step up immediately, but I’m not sure.
Maybe he is, maybe he can make the step up immediately, but I’m not sure.
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Re: ARTICLE: Clarets linked again with Bogle
To be honest he couldn't do much worse.SGr wrote: ↑Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:11 pmSee I like that we’re pursuing a right back and I like that he’s someone with real sell on potential, but it is becoming a critical position where we need someone who is good enough right now.
Maybe he is, maybe he can make the step up immediately, but I’m not sure.
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Re: ARTICLE: Clarets linked again with Bogle
You could have said that about Danny Ings, Sam Vokes, Ashley Barnes, Michael Keane, James Tarkowski, Nick Pope, Ashley Westwood, Charlie Taylor ...
There is every reason to sign someone who is going to be really good, even if he needs to improve a bit first.
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Re: ARTICLE: Clarets linked again with Bogle
But most of those players had good players ahead of them who were performing well. Neither of our current right backs are up to the job.
Re: ARTICLE: Clarets linked again with Bogle
Must be happening if Tony's written an article about it.
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Re: ARTICLE: Clarets linked again with Bogle
Does anyone else get infuriated at the fact that many of our in-comings go under this heading of 'one for the future'? We need 'now', off the peg players who could step into the team without getting 'Dyche fit' or 'up to speed' or any other of the tired cliches that we so often hear about our signings. When was the last time we signed anyone and we all though 'wow, can't wait to see him in action on Saturday'? We tend to sign a player and he disappears into some black hole for a few weeks and comes out injured (bit of an exaggeration but you get the drift). Hart came straight into the team but that was an emergency but other than that I don't know.
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Re: ARTICLE: Clarets linked again with Bogle
. thought Drinkwater would be a decent signing (once he’d had a couple of weeks to get up to the required fitness) - he is one who has been sucked into the vortex of crippled, waste of time signings.houseboy wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:31 amDoes anyone else get infuriated at the fact that many of our in-comings go under this heading of 'one for the future'? We need 'now', off the peg players who could step into the team without getting 'Dyche fit' or 'up to speed' or any other of the tired cliches that we so often hear about our signings. When was the last time we signed anyone and we all though 'wow, can't wait to see him in action on Saturday'? We tend to sign a player and he disappears into some black hole for a few weeks and comes out injured (bit of an exaggeration but you get the drift). Hart came straight into the team but that was an emergency but other than that I don't know.
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Re: ARTICLE: Clarets linked again with Bogle
Agree with all of the above,we need to strengthen the 1st 11 in January,not more squad fillers or development players,that are eating wages and not contributing on the park.houseboy wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:31 amDoes anyone else get infuriated at the fact that many of our in-comings go under this heading of 'one for the future'? We need 'now', off the peg players who could step into the team without getting 'Dyche fit' or 'up to speed' or any other of the tired cliches that we so often hear about our signings. When was the last time we signed anyone and we all though 'wow, can't wait to see him in action on Saturday'? We tend to sign a player and he disappears into some black hole for a few weeks and comes out injured (bit of an exaggeration but you get the drift). Hart came straight into the team but that was an emergency but other than that I don't know.
In answer to your the last off the peg signing that springs to mind is Chris Wood,and he was signed in the summer of 2017.
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Re: ARTICLE: Clarets linked again with Bogle
Precisely my point mate. 2.5 years ago since that last happened apart from the emergency of Hart. If you are right (and I think you may be) that is scandalous.tiger76 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:41 amAgree with all of the above,we need to strengthen the 1st 11 in January,not more squad fillers or development players,that are eating wages and not contributing on the park.
In answer to your the last off the peg signing that springs to mind is Chris Wood,and he was signed in the summer of 2017.
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Re: ARTICLE: Clarets linked again with Bogle
Early Opt Out Clause
Bogle would be a big transfer so this is a big post. If you aren't interested in a long read skip it.
Players For The Future
With our finances buying somebody young who might prove to be good enough in a couple of years is probably the way we should be going.
If you look back on our transfer activity we seem to struggle getting the players we need at the first time of asking. It can take us a couple of windows to fill a slot in the team. So we keep plugging away at it and eventually pay a premium price in a market with rising prices a year or two down the line.
If we bring in a cheaper player who isn't ready, and in doing so pay a cheaper price, the time it takes for them to develop their game could be equal to the time spent looking for a ready player. Meaning that they are both available at the same time ( but one would cost less, albeit with a greater level of risk because they might not develop to the level we need ).
However, it all comes down to money. Paying £10-15m for a player that obviously isn't ready to step into the first team immediately, on the basis that he might be good enough in a year or two, doesn't strike me as being very wise. We can't afford to pay out that kind of money on a speculative punt, no matter how young they might be or the hype surrounding them.
Bogle
Jayden Bogle is a good player and he posted some impressive attacking stats last season. Taking into account his age, his assists and all the trumpet blowing by Lampard the hype was understandable.
However, I think our rumoured valuation of £8m was a top end price that reflected the vagaries of potential more than any established pedigree. He definitely lacks defensive solidity, losing the ball too frequently for my liking and he drops more than his fair share of clangers. His assist rate of last season drew a lot of positive attention that served to paper over these defensive cracks.
Like other posters I don't think he has replicated his form of last season in the current campaign, He doesn't look as good this year. For that reason I would put him in the 6-8m range. If we are thinking about spending any more on him I would prefer to see us go after a better overall player who could offer us more NOW, even if they are older.
Defensive Framework
I don't think a new right back is an urgent priority during the next window. Bardsley currently has a knock and Lowton is looking out of form. However, I don't think we are currently in the grip of a dire emergency like some other people. Everyone has an off day or two and writing off both Lowton and Bardsley seems a bit reactionary and excessive to me.
I also think that our main defensive problem is the poor positional play of Pieters, which is having a domino effect that sends ripples of uncertainty through our back line. When Pieters goes wandering about Mee has to move to cover, that leads to Tarks moving to cover Mee and our right back moving in ( which creates a pocket of space ) or staying wide and being more exposed. Our tight framework loses its defensive shape as a consequence of Pieters apparent inability to be in the right place at the right time.
With Taylor on the pitch we look far more assured. The level of uncertainly generated by Pieters also requires McNeill to play a greater defensive role. If anything we should probably be looking out for a better quality backup left back, because Pieters isn't working out.
In the last two matches we have also lost the defensive contribution of Hendrick on the wing, who gives our right back more cover and the centre backs more support when he cuts into midfield. The temporary loss of Westwood didn't just affect our midfield strength. Once again, our poor " plug a gap " transfer performance in the last window is hurting us.
Lowton and Bardsley have a developed understanding of our framework and the roles that all our players are expected to fulfil within it. This awareness is of benefit to us. Throwing Bogle in on the right ( with his defensive frailties and the absence of that developed understanding ) could actually make us a lot weaker. Then again, maybe we aren't looking at him as a right back and we have a right wing role in mind for him. In that is the case then his overall passing game and decision making are questionable.
Other Players
I tried to identify some young players in our price range that might be available to slot in at right back and make an immediate contribution, but I couldn't really come up with anyone. That is why I suggested Silvan Widmer in another post ( who hedged it over Jonas Svensson and Tomasz Kedziora because of his overall attacking and defending play ), but ideally I would like someone younger than 27 in a few months.
I ruled out Kevin Rüegg ( because of a slight concern about his injury record ) and Robert Gumny ( because I don't think he has the required level of physicality for our league ).
Jonjoe Kenny appealed to me, but he has done himself a lot of favours in his time with Schalke so I don't think he would be available now.
Jordan Beyer impressed me last season with some very solid defensive performances, although his contribution to attack left a lot to be desired. I can understand how the recent arrival of Leiner at Mochengladbach would bump him down the pecking order, but his subsequent fall to the second team has me scratching my head and wondering why. Did he sleep with the Chairmans wife, is he pushing for a move, has he picked up a slight injury or is he being affected by personal problems. Is he unwanted and available for a knock down bargain price?
Kelvin Amian, who currently plays for hot to drop relegation candidates Toulouse, is a good young player with a lot of experience and potential. He is more defensive than offensive, but I think the way that Toulouse require him to play ( and the woeful quality of their other defenders ) prevents him from playing a more active forward role and developing that part of his game.
Toulouse have never been League 1 high flyers, but this season they are in free fall. The reason is that over the last two years they have sold a huge number of influential players, including centre backs Issa Diop, Christopher Julien and John Clair Tobido. Every area of their team has suffered a reduction in quality in some way or another. This year, with the early injuries to Diakite and Shoji, their defence has been shocking. Rogel and Mirin are very poor substitutes for the quality of the players they have lost and the stats of Amian have suffered from their inclusion. I can't see them escaping relegation which would probably open up Amians to a move in the Summer or before.
Josha Vagnoman struck me as another good young player in his early performances for Hamburger SV this season, but he fractured his foot so I didn't get to see as much of him as I would have liked. However, in what I did see he showed a lot of promise and I would say that he is one worth following.
I also watched quite a bit of Giulian Biancone at Cercle Brugge and he really impressed me given his age. Transfermarkt has his contract ending in 2020, but I'm fairly sure that he signed up to a new three year contract immediately before his loan from Monaco. That would probably rule him out for a move in the short term, but I can't see him breaking into the Monaco lineup so I would put him down as another one to watch.
The Cost Of Youth
The upshot of all this is that good young players do exist and I suspect most of these could be had for relatively cheap prices, because of one reason or another. This is by no means an exhaustive list, these are simply players I've noticed in my match viewing beyond Burnley. No doubt many others are out there. Granted, none of these youngsters stand out as a " must sign " player, but I would argue that looking beyond the hype Bogle doesn't fully fit that label either.
Bargains can still be found, but you have to look harder to find them. Unfortunately we don't seem to be looking that hard. Most of the players we get linked to are well known Championship players or more recently stand out performers in International competitions. Players like that are going to cost over the odds and a lot of them are unlikely to come here. Our revamped scouting is supposed to be identifying players beyond our own shores. Unfortunately, judging by the last window it still looks like we are concerned with the obvious " known to everyone " candidates who are currently throwing up eye catching stats that set off the alarm bells on every analysts software package.
In order to find hidden gems or players that could be expected to move for bargain prices, because of a noticeable condition or situation, our recruitment team needs to work a lot harder and really raise their game instead of simply going through the motions. Having a system that generates player data is of far less importance than the ability to interpret that data effectively or use common sense to make judgements about a players transfer list suitability or recognise circumstances that could result in a knock down price. At the end of the day data is just a collection of numerical variables it is how a person or company makes use of the data that really matters.
Summary
Bogle is a good young player, but taking into account his defensive naivety he is currently only half the player that we need. If he can be had for a reasonable price as a " one for the future " purchase then he could be worth pursuing. If we are talking BIG MONEY then I would leave him at Derby.
The only real reason I could see for going after Bogle in the next window ( so we can have two right backs soaking up wages on the bench instead of one ) is that competition for his signature might be less in the Winter window. Buying him and loaning him back to Derby with guaranteed game time to aid his development, if that makes things easier and knocks money of their asking price, could also be an option.
Given the OP is Claret Tony I think we can have a measured degree of certainty that trying to sign up Bogle is what we are going to do in the next window. The fact that we are looking to sign yet another player that we were pursuing BEFORE Rigg arrived also increases my doubts about his effectiveness and worth.
If Rigg is simply picking over all the work done prior to his arrival and adding to it by putting forward unrealistic targets of his own ( picking up cheap and unsatisfactory gap pluggers when those options lead to nothing ) then he isn't earning his money and he is wasting our valuable time and resources.
Personal Recommendation
Midfield should be the big priority for the next window, seconded by the right wing, not right back.
In terms of our finances young players for the future should be fairly cheap £1-3m purchases. Offers in the £10m ballpark should only be for players who can affect the first team immediately, irrespective of their age.
Bogle would be a big transfer so this is a big post. If you aren't interested in a long read skip it.
Players For The Future
With our finances buying somebody young who might prove to be good enough in a couple of years is probably the way we should be going.
If you look back on our transfer activity we seem to struggle getting the players we need at the first time of asking. It can take us a couple of windows to fill a slot in the team. So we keep plugging away at it and eventually pay a premium price in a market with rising prices a year or two down the line.
If we bring in a cheaper player who isn't ready, and in doing so pay a cheaper price, the time it takes for them to develop their game could be equal to the time spent looking for a ready player. Meaning that they are both available at the same time ( but one would cost less, albeit with a greater level of risk because they might not develop to the level we need ).
However, it all comes down to money. Paying £10-15m for a player that obviously isn't ready to step into the first team immediately, on the basis that he might be good enough in a year or two, doesn't strike me as being very wise. We can't afford to pay out that kind of money on a speculative punt, no matter how young they might be or the hype surrounding them.
Bogle
Jayden Bogle is a good player and he posted some impressive attacking stats last season. Taking into account his age, his assists and all the trumpet blowing by Lampard the hype was understandable.
However, I think our rumoured valuation of £8m was a top end price that reflected the vagaries of potential more than any established pedigree. He definitely lacks defensive solidity, losing the ball too frequently for my liking and he drops more than his fair share of clangers. His assist rate of last season drew a lot of positive attention that served to paper over these defensive cracks.
Like other posters I don't think he has replicated his form of last season in the current campaign, He doesn't look as good this year. For that reason I would put him in the 6-8m range. If we are thinking about spending any more on him I would prefer to see us go after a better overall player who could offer us more NOW, even if they are older.
Defensive Framework
I don't think a new right back is an urgent priority during the next window. Bardsley currently has a knock and Lowton is looking out of form. However, I don't think we are currently in the grip of a dire emergency like some other people. Everyone has an off day or two and writing off both Lowton and Bardsley seems a bit reactionary and excessive to me.
I also think that our main defensive problem is the poor positional play of Pieters, which is having a domino effect that sends ripples of uncertainty through our back line. When Pieters goes wandering about Mee has to move to cover, that leads to Tarks moving to cover Mee and our right back moving in ( which creates a pocket of space ) or staying wide and being more exposed. Our tight framework loses its defensive shape as a consequence of Pieters apparent inability to be in the right place at the right time.
With Taylor on the pitch we look far more assured. The level of uncertainly generated by Pieters also requires McNeill to play a greater defensive role. If anything we should probably be looking out for a better quality backup left back, because Pieters isn't working out.
In the last two matches we have also lost the defensive contribution of Hendrick on the wing, who gives our right back more cover and the centre backs more support when he cuts into midfield. The temporary loss of Westwood didn't just affect our midfield strength. Once again, our poor " plug a gap " transfer performance in the last window is hurting us.
Lowton and Bardsley have a developed understanding of our framework and the roles that all our players are expected to fulfil within it. This awareness is of benefit to us. Throwing Bogle in on the right ( with his defensive frailties and the absence of that developed understanding ) could actually make us a lot weaker. Then again, maybe we aren't looking at him as a right back and we have a right wing role in mind for him. In that is the case then his overall passing game and decision making are questionable.
Other Players
I tried to identify some young players in our price range that might be available to slot in at right back and make an immediate contribution, but I couldn't really come up with anyone. That is why I suggested Silvan Widmer in another post ( who hedged it over Jonas Svensson and Tomasz Kedziora because of his overall attacking and defending play ), but ideally I would like someone younger than 27 in a few months.
I ruled out Kevin Rüegg ( because of a slight concern about his injury record ) and Robert Gumny ( because I don't think he has the required level of physicality for our league ).
Jonjoe Kenny appealed to me, but he has done himself a lot of favours in his time with Schalke so I don't think he would be available now.
Jordan Beyer impressed me last season with some very solid defensive performances, although his contribution to attack left a lot to be desired. I can understand how the recent arrival of Leiner at Mochengladbach would bump him down the pecking order, but his subsequent fall to the second team has me scratching my head and wondering why. Did he sleep with the Chairmans wife, is he pushing for a move, has he picked up a slight injury or is he being affected by personal problems. Is he unwanted and available for a knock down bargain price?
Kelvin Amian, who currently plays for hot to drop relegation candidates Toulouse, is a good young player with a lot of experience and potential. He is more defensive than offensive, but I think the way that Toulouse require him to play ( and the woeful quality of their other defenders ) prevents him from playing a more active forward role and developing that part of his game.
Toulouse have never been League 1 high flyers, but this season they are in free fall. The reason is that over the last two years they have sold a huge number of influential players, including centre backs Issa Diop, Christopher Julien and John Clair Tobido. Every area of their team has suffered a reduction in quality in some way or another. This year, with the early injuries to Diakite and Shoji, their defence has been shocking. Rogel and Mirin are very poor substitutes for the quality of the players they have lost and the stats of Amian have suffered from their inclusion. I can't see them escaping relegation which would probably open up Amians to a move in the Summer or before.
Josha Vagnoman struck me as another good young player in his early performances for Hamburger SV this season, but he fractured his foot so I didn't get to see as much of him as I would have liked. However, in what I did see he showed a lot of promise and I would say that he is one worth following.
I also watched quite a bit of Giulian Biancone at Cercle Brugge and he really impressed me given his age. Transfermarkt has his contract ending in 2020, but I'm fairly sure that he signed up to a new three year contract immediately before his loan from Monaco. That would probably rule him out for a move in the short term, but I can't see him breaking into the Monaco lineup so I would put him down as another one to watch.
The Cost Of Youth
The upshot of all this is that good young players do exist and I suspect most of these could be had for relatively cheap prices, because of one reason or another. This is by no means an exhaustive list, these are simply players I've noticed in my match viewing beyond Burnley. No doubt many others are out there. Granted, none of these youngsters stand out as a " must sign " player, but I would argue that looking beyond the hype Bogle doesn't fully fit that label either.
Bargains can still be found, but you have to look harder to find them. Unfortunately we don't seem to be looking that hard. Most of the players we get linked to are well known Championship players or more recently stand out performers in International competitions. Players like that are going to cost over the odds and a lot of them are unlikely to come here. Our revamped scouting is supposed to be identifying players beyond our own shores. Unfortunately, judging by the last window it still looks like we are concerned with the obvious " known to everyone " candidates who are currently throwing up eye catching stats that set off the alarm bells on every analysts software package.
In order to find hidden gems or players that could be expected to move for bargain prices, because of a noticeable condition or situation, our recruitment team needs to work a lot harder and really raise their game instead of simply going through the motions. Having a system that generates player data is of far less importance than the ability to interpret that data effectively or use common sense to make judgements about a players transfer list suitability or recognise circumstances that could result in a knock down price. At the end of the day data is just a collection of numerical variables it is how a person or company makes use of the data that really matters.
Summary
Bogle is a good young player, but taking into account his defensive naivety he is currently only half the player that we need. If he can be had for a reasonable price as a " one for the future " purchase then he could be worth pursuing. If we are talking BIG MONEY then I would leave him at Derby.
The only real reason I could see for going after Bogle in the next window ( so we can have two right backs soaking up wages on the bench instead of one ) is that competition for his signature might be less in the Winter window. Buying him and loaning him back to Derby with guaranteed game time to aid his development, if that makes things easier and knocks money of their asking price, could also be an option.
Given the OP is Claret Tony I think we can have a measured degree of certainty that trying to sign up Bogle is what we are going to do in the next window. The fact that we are looking to sign yet another player that we were pursuing BEFORE Rigg arrived also increases my doubts about his effectiveness and worth.
If Rigg is simply picking over all the work done prior to his arrival and adding to it by putting forward unrealistic targets of his own ( picking up cheap and unsatisfactory gap pluggers when those options lead to nothing ) then he isn't earning his money and he is wasting our valuable time and resources.
Personal Recommendation
Midfield should be the big priority for the next window, seconded by the right wing, not right back.
In terms of our finances young players for the future should be fairly cheap £1-3m purchases. Offers in the £10m ballpark should only be for players who can affect the first team immediately, irrespective of their age.
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Re: ARTICLE: Clarets linked again with Bogle
It's mind Bogle-ing!
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Re: ARTICLE: Clarets linked again with Bogle
Lots of good hungry for success type players in the Balkans grab em before the Italians ..