Next labour leader?

[Bin Ont Turf]

A cardboard cutout of Neil Kinnock sporting a huge c-ock.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Watching Newsnight there was a woman on who took on Iain Duncan Smith and lost, earlier I saw that Labour front bencher Richard Burgon from Leeds defending Corbyn.

The abiding thought is that this lot are thick as mince - seriously, seriously thick. The Burgon guy is meant to be a lawyer, crikey.

So when we get into the Momentum bunch I’m really struggling. Long Bailey is probably the best of the bunch (despite being hugely irritating) but there are probably 200 Tory MPs better qualified to be a leader.

Then I read David Lammy is tipped to be the leader. Just the type to win back northern heartlands. I need a lie down.

This is existential for Labour. The Unions, the guaranteed red tick from the red wall voter - none are what they used to be. There is a chance they will implode completely. But the people are still the people - that voter, he or she doesn’t change, it’s the Labour party that has changed. Change back, they have a chance,

[HarryPottsDesk]

Get off your knees you servile folk of Burnley. The tories are laughing their heads off at you. They spin you a pack of lies through the billionaires' press, and you lap it up. Don't you understand that your interests and theirs' are diametrically opposed? Burnley had a shaming recent history as the national capital of racism. Now it is jockeying to be the capital of working-class stupidity.

'Rise like Lions after slumber
In unvanquishable number,
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you -
Ye are many - they are few.’

It's still true.

[Rowls]

Get off your knees you servile folk of Burnley. The tories are laughing their heads off at you. They spin you a pack of lies through the billionaires' press, and you lap it up. Don't you understand that your interests and theirs' are diametrically opposed? Burnley had a shaming recent history as the national capital of racism. Now it is jockeying to be the capital of working-class stupidity.

'Rise like Lions after slumber
In unvanquishable number,
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you -
Ye are many - they are few.’

It's still true.

If only you'd called people thinking of voting Conservative thick, stupid and servile before they voted, eh?

I'm sure it would have changed everything.

[HarryPottsDesk]

Hello stupid.

[Spiral]

It's strange how a bloke working as a prostitute in France cares so much about random and inconsequential aspersions cast on illiterate cloth cap Tories in a backward little corner of England, but here we are, sensitivities assaulted, voice raised, indignation registered on a petty frequency.

[jojomk1]

It's strange how a bloke working as a prostitute in France cares so much about random and inconsequential aspersions cast on illiterate cloth cap Tories in a backward little corner of England, but here we are, sensitivities assaulted, voice raised, indignation registered on a petty frequency.

Run that by me again please

[Sproggy]

They could do a lot, lot worse than Lisa Nandy given the interview she just gave on Marr.

[claretandy]

They could do a lot, lot worse than Lisa Nandy given the interview she just gave on Marr.

Has anybody managed to come up with a Brexit deal that she's willing to vote for yet ?

[Bfcboyo]

Get off your knees you servile folk of Burnley. The tories are laughing their heads off at you. They spin you a pack of lies through the billionaires' press, and you lap it up. Don't you understand that your interests and theirs' are diametrically opposed? Burnley had a shaming recent history as the national capital of racism. Now it is jockeying to be the capital of working-class stupidity.

'Rise like Lions after slumber
In unvanquishable number,
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you -
Ye are many - they are few.’

It's still true.

And this is the Labour mentality that needs to go if they ever want to regain power and be a party for the people. Less opposing and more listening required from supporter through to leader.

[Bosscat]

IMG-20191215-WA0000.jpg (66.37 KiB) Viewed 2659 times

[Steve1956]

Anyone but that gobby Brummie Philip's.

[jollyjack]

I see Corbyn has taken "my share" of responsibility and apologised, as has McDonnell. Your share Mr C is 100%, that's the leader's burden. Everything comes back to you. If you can't see what's in front of your nose then what exactly are you doing in politics?

Only way back is a schism with a new centre-left party, leave the Marxists to gloat over their 500000 membership, no one gives a FCuk, it wont ever get them 15 million votes.

[tiger76]

Kinder,gentler politics really?

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/labour-mp-llo ... 4588.html

John Hannah's taking the result well https://uk.news.yahoo.com/marvels-agent ... 5143.html

[RingoMcCartney]

The further away it gets the closer they think it is.

As I’ve also said repeatedly, the intelligent will fix the mistakes of the stupid. As they have done throughout history.

The tactic of appointing someone stupid to fight the intelligent then, when they lose, replacing them with someone even stupider is STUPID but please, keep it up

The intelligent - Boris Johnson

The stupid - Ed Miliband

Someone "even stupider" - Jeremy Corbyn

The intelligent- Those who voted and broke "The Red Wall"

THE MOST STUPID - Claret On A Trex

Loser

[AndrewJB]

The 2020 election is over, so Labour would make a mistake by looking for someone who could have fought it better. The next leader has to concentrate on providing opposition - and ideally a cogent opposition that is clearly understood, and difficult for the press to misrepresent. Brexit will still be an issue (it won't go away for a long time, because it's far from being "done", and the repercussions will continue), and I believe the government will use it as an excuse (or reason) for continuing with austerity. It's not enough for the new leader to point to broken election promises - where are these forty additional hospitals? - but to press home the different choices a Labour government would make, and the contrast is stark enough. Each year when rail prices get hiked up, and service continues to be poor - the Labour alternative can be set out for the country. The same can be done with water and power. As our internet infrastructure continues to creak along, or as fracking returns to the menu, it can be pointed out that there is an alternative.

[RingoMcCartney]

May was undone by the factions in her party, the next leader will also suffer the same fate, especially one who tries to tout the impossible no-deal scenario.

It'll end up being a general election on which Labour will campaign for a Brexit deal with a customs union and a people's vote with an option to remain.

They'll win, remain will win the people's vote and Brexit will be scrapped, as it was always going to be.

The intelligent, fixing the mistakes of the stupid. Now and forever.

Leave the predictions to me!

I , intelligently, voted conservative and fixed the brexit blocking mistakes of the stupid , like you!!!


Hoist by your own petard!!

[RingoMcCartney]

The 2020 election is over, so Labour would make a mistake by looking for someone who could have fought it better. The next leader has to concentrate on providing opposition - and ideally a cogent opposition that is clearly understood, and difficult for the press to misrepresent. Brexit will still be an issue (it won't go away for a long time, because it's far from being "done", and the repercussions will continue), and I believe the government will use it as an excuse (or reason) for continuing with austerity. It's not enough for the new leader to point to broken election promises - where are these forty additional hospitals? - but to press home the different choices a Labour government would make, and the contrast is stark enough. Each year when rail prices get hiked up, and service continues to be poor - the Labour alternative can be set out for the country. The same can be done with water and power. As our internet infrastructure continues to creak along, or as fracking returns to the menu, it can be pointed out that there is an alternative.

How long have I been saying this Andrew?

1, 2, 3 and a half years?

"The dwellers of the metropolitan London borough of Ivory Towers"

"Labour- used to be the working class party. Now it's an Islington dinner party "

Today Emily Thornberry , the high priestess of sneering smugness, has been quoted as saying to a former fellow labour mp booted out on Thursday ,"I'm glad my constituents arent as stupid as yours."

I've been proven right havent I Andrew.

[RingoMcCartney]

The idea of Theresa May's that she could keep bringing the same, unchanged deal back to Parliament until it was wearily waved through as she ran down the clock was pretty stupid and John Bercow was right to block her from doing it.

I don't know, it's almost as if the intelligent are fixing the mistake of the stupid somehow.

Funny that.

Not half as funny as you now sound!!

[yTib]

it's a depressing assessment of british politics when someone probably from the northwest is gloating about a tory majority. especially one headed by someone called pfeffel.

i haven't a clue who can rescue labour now but as much as i like jess phillips i don't think the electorate will go for her.

and anyone who honestly thinks ed milliband is thick is almost certainly less intelligent than ed milliband.

[AndrewJB]

How long have I been saying this Andrew?

1, 2, 3 and a half years?

"The dwellers of the metropolitan London borough of Ivory Towers"

"Labour- uses to be the working class party. Now it's an Islington dinner party "

Today Emily Thornberry , the high priestess of sneering smugness, has been quoted as saying to a former fellow labour mp booted out on Thursday ,"I'm glad my constituents arent as stupid as yours."

I've been proven right havent I Andrew.

I'm afraid you've been spouting Dally Mail nonsense for the last three and a half years. The Labour Party is more for the working class now than it every was during the Blair and Brown years - a comparison of policies and manifestos is enough to see that - and how anyone can think that Johnson's Tories will deliver for the working class is not looking at the fine print. Those who voted Tory have been sold a massive excrement sandwich, and it will give me no pleasure whatsoever to see them eat it.

[taio]

I'm afraid you've been spouting Dally Mail nonsense for the last three and a half years. The Labour Party is more for the working class now than it every was during the Blair and Brown years - a comparison of policies and manifestos is enough to see that - and how anyone can think that Johnson's Tories will deliver for the working class is not looking at the fine print. Those who voted Tory have been sold a massive excrement sandwich, and it will give me no pleasure whatsoever to see them eat it.

Bottom line is who and what the Labour Party has represented under Corbynism hasn't engaged the electorate having failed miserable - they lost the argument significantly. We can see what the Tories deliver and if they fail they will lose power at the next election. That's democracy.

[Nonayforever]

It's become a shame when politics descends into verbal spats between various factions.
At the end of the day everyone wants essentially the same things.
Climate change should be a cross party policy, same thing goes for the NHS. They should not be political footballs. Slightly different views but same result.
The problem Labour have ( excluding Brexit) is that they are trying to buy votes rather than earning votes through better policies.
They have clearly lost touch with the working modern man and become a party for the non working modern man.

[Somethingfishy]

Judging by the comments from the resident lefties on here. on my social media and from high ranking Labour officials they are not going to learn. Still blaming the press, still calling people thick. Thornberry doesn't surprise me..she is the type of person Labour need to purge if they are going to capture the north back. Arrogance and smugness and an unbelievable capacity to be completely out of touch.
Momentum need ditching..but they are pulling the strings so that won't happen. It really won't matter who they elect as leader as long as they are in control. The far left and the unions have far too much of a grip on the party.

[Dy1geo]

There can only be one leader and that is Jon Ashworth, for him to “just Josh around” and actually predicting the result in just banter was remarkable

[Sproggy]

The Labour Party is more for the working class now than it every was during the Blair and Brown years

Yet if you take Blair out of the picture, Labour haven't won a general election for nearly 50 years.

[Somethingfishy]

I'm afraid you've been spouting Dally Mail nonsense for the last three and a half years. The Labour Party is more for the working class now than it every was during the Blair and Brown years - a comparison of policies and manifestos is enough to see that - and how anyone can think that Johnson's Tories will deliver for the working class is not looking at the fine print. Those who voted Tory have been sold a massive excrement sandwich, and it will give me no pleasure whatsoever to see them eat it.

Come on Andrew..the left predicting the future? Not worked out well so far has it? I think from my point of view and judging by friends who have also abandoned Labour..they feel Labour doesnt represent them anymore. They represent the underclasses, the workshy, the feckless. To say the tories represent us might be pushing it but i think they are closer to the working man than Labour currently are...and yes that is a shocking state of affairs and the blame lies squarely at Labours door.

[LoveCurryPies]

Who will it be?

I am hoping for Angela Rayner. Soft left and female

I remember thinking “She is a woman so maybe we will have a more caring Government!”

That was Maggie!

[Sproggy]

Has anybody managed to come up with a Brexit deal that she's willing to vote for yet ?

She voted for the deal last time out. When pushed this morning as to whether she'd vote for it again, she said she would if the government would consider including a commitment to a customs union but also added that given the majority the government now has, she doesn't expect them to.

https://labourlist.org/2019/10/watch-li ... d-reading/

[RingoMcCartney]

I'm afraid you've been spouting Dally Mail nonsense for the last three and a half years. The Labour Party is more for the working class now than it every was during the Blair and Brown years - a comparison of policies and manifestos is enough to see that - and how anyone can think that Johnson's Tories will deliver for the working class is not looking at the fine print. Those who voted Tory have been sold a massive excrement sandwich, and it will give me no pleasure whatsoever to see them eat it.

The amount of self awareness that your post displays is immeasurable!

Just days after a crushing electoral defeat you're still clinging to the misguided mantra that you , as a metropolitan bubble dweller, know what's best for milllions and millions of ordinary decent working class people.

You, in your pompous, arrogant way, believe that they need people like you to help them save themselves from themselves!!!!!

You clearly still believe the northern working class are uneducated parochial, pitchfork wielding bumpkins that are unable to think for themselves!!

Well, guess what Andrew!?

We can tie our own shoe laces!

I know this will come as a shock , but your attitude, just like the odious Emily Thornberry, when she said to a former labour colleague who'd just lost her northern constituency, "I'm just glad my constituents arent as stupid as yours," is the very reason why you and your self-aggrandizing, holier than thou, London centric looking down your lofty, ivory towered, disconnected nose labour party, got a well deserved, electoral bloody nose!!!

It's why after 3 and half years I've been proven absolutely right. And you Andrew have been shown to be utterly utterly out of touch and gloriously gloriously wrong in equal measure

[dermotdermot]

Corbyn is now lobbying activists to join or rejoin as members so they can insure that his successor keeps the same agenda as him. How low can this excuse for a human being sink?

[yTib]

pompous and arrogant.

i'll give you this ringo - you are a blackbelt in irony.

you, rowls and and imploded should form a trio. i'd steer clear of politics though.

maybe magic tricks.

[Somethingfishy]

The amount of self awareness that your post displays is immeasurable!

Just days after a crushing electoral defeat you're still clinging to the misguided mantra that you , as a metropolitan bubble dweller, know what's best for milllions and millions of ordinary decent working class people.

You, in your pompous, arrogant way, believe that they need people like you to help them save themselves from themselves!!!!!

You clearly still believe the northern working class are uneducated parochial, pitchfork wielding bumpkins that are unable to think for themselves!!

Well, guess what Andrew!?

We can tie our own shoe laces!

I know this will come as a shock , but your attitude, just like the odious Emily Thornberry, when she said to a former labour colleague who'd just lost her northern constituency, "I'm just glad my constituents arent as stupid as yours," is the very reason why you and your self-aggrandizing, holier than thou, London centric looking down your lofty, ivory towered, disconnected nose labour party, got a well deserved, electoral bloody nose!!!

It's why after 3 and half years I've been proven absolutely right. And you Andrew have been shown to be utterly utterly out of touch and gloriously gloriously wrong in equal measure

Indeed. Their condescending attitude now is just the same as before the election. They are not cottoning on are they?

[AndrewJB]

Bottom line is who and what the Labour Party has represented under Corbynism hasn't engaged the electorate having failed miserable - they lost the argument significantly. We can see what the Tories deliver and if they fail they will lose power at the next election. That's democracy.

Life and politics is a lot more complicated than the black and white you're suggesting. Our first past the post system delivers definite majorities (or black and white outcomes), but it would be ridiculous to conclude that everything a losing party put forward was therefore resoundingly rejected by the electorate. If Corbynism is actually a thing, then we'd agree that it means the policies and general political direction he espoused. A lot of these things, taken individually, had a lot of support within the wider electorate. Rail nationalisation for example even has a majority of support within Tory voters (most especially those living in the south east). Treating climate change with greater urgency, making the country more democratic, building more council houses, strengthening worker's rights so that immigrants can't undercut British workers, investing in green technologies to rebuild a modern and viable industrial base in neglected areas of the country - all of these have merit. Even the idea of getting the rich to shoulder a greater burden of taxation is a policy most people agree with. A lot of people - even conservative voters - said they liked some parts of the Labour manifesto, but couldn't bring themselves to vote in Corbyn as PM. With Corbyn gone, then perhaps we could have a calmer debate about some of these areas of policy, including how we pay for these things.

[RingoMcCartney]

pompous and arrogant.

i'll give you this ringo - you are a blackbelt in irony.

you, rowls and and imploded should form a trio. i'd steer clear of politics though.

maybe magic tricks.

I'm no Paul Daniel's but just by putting an "X" in a little box on a piece of paper in Burnley.

I can make the dreams of Tony Bliar disappear!!!

Brilliant is it!!!!!

[Devils_Advocate]

Come on Andrew..the left predicting the future? Not worked out well so far has it? I think from my point of view and judging by friends who have also abandoned Labour..they feel Labour doesnt represent them anymore. They represent the underclasses, the workshy, the feckless. To say the tories represent us might be pushing it but i think they are closer to the working man than Labour currently are...and yes that is a shocking state of affairs and the blame lies squarely at Labours door.

Funny you should say this cos we share some thoughts but view it in a different way.

My view is the traditional working class does not exist to be represented by anyone anymore because with the advancement of society and vastly enriched lives in the western world the middle and working classes have merged into one class.

The working class used to be much more down trodden and rather than fight each other they used to fight against the upper and middle classes. Now these people are better off they have something to lose and so fight against each other and this plays right into the right wing hands

The working class has been replaced by an underclass but where you describe them as workshy and feckless implying they are not worth fighting for I see them as those left behind by a modern society that is uncaring and self absorbed.

The other problem is that other groups get left behind with the underclass like the disabled or refugees or children born into these families through no fault of their own

For me the Labour party should be the party to represent those at the bottom of society without a voice and will also appeal to people like me who see helping those at the bottom instead of appeasing those at the top as a route to a better society for all.

I've said a few times what is needed is a credible 3rd party to represent the centrists who see people like me as do gooders and idealists who will bankrupt the country but who at the same time want the Eton elitists to be kept in line and be challenged.

Unfortunately I think the only way we break the 2 party system is through a change to the voting system but doing that may in itself create as many issues as it resolves.

Whilst I hope the Labour party finds a way to improve its leadership and how it gets out its message out I really hope its policies and principles remain as they have been over the last 4 years.

I don't care that I am in a minority or take notice of the childish tribal insults people dish out to me and people like me cos politics is more than a game to win but about principles and beliefs and I have seen nothing from Johnson and the Tories over the last few years to give me any reason to change my mind

[nil_desperandum]

We can see what the Tories deliver and if they fail they will lose power at the next election. That's democracy.

Not a chance that the Tories will lose at any time in England in the next few decades I don't think.
We were all aware of what was at stake in a FPTP election.
Almost impossible for Labour to defeat Tories without votes in Scotland. Those seats have now irrevocably gone (IMO).
Add to that Johnson will bring in boundary changes and voter ID to strengthen his hand.
The FPTP system fails our democracy. Corbyn failed to take this into account.

[taio]

Life and politics is a lot more complicated than the black and white you're suggesting. Our first past the post system delivers definite majorities (or black and white outcomes), but it would be ridiculous to conclude that everything a losing party put forward was therefore resoundingly rejected by the electorate. If Corbynism is actually a thing, then we'd agree that it means the policies and general political direction he espoused. A lot of these things, taken individually, had a lot of support within the wider electorate. Rail nationalisation for example even has a majority of support within Tory voters (most especially those living in the south east). Treating climate change with greater urgency, making the country more democratic, building more council houses, strengthening worker's rights so that immigrants can't undercut British workers, investing in green technologies to rebuild a modern and viable industrial base in neglected areas of the country - all of these have merit. Even the idea of getting the rich to shoulder a greater burden of taxation is a policy most people agree with. A lot of people - even conservative voters - said they liked some parts of the Labour manifesto, but couldn't bring themselves to vote in Corbyn as PM. With Corbyn gone, then perhaps we could have a calmer debate about some of these areas of policy, including how we pay for these things.

I didn't suggest every aspect was rejected. For the avoidance of doubt, I believe the electorate resoundingly rejected them for the following main four reasons:

1) Their ambiguous and pathetic position on Brexit;
2) Their far left wing position underpinned by the cult that is Momentum;
3) Their package of proposals that the electorate thought were pie in the sky and undeliverable without seriously harming the economy; and
4) Their dreadful leadership that numerous moderate and respected Labour MPs deplored, including their ability to address antisemitism.

Corbyn's allies and yourself won't listen though.

[taio]

Not a chance that the Tories will lose at any time in England in the next few decades I don't think.
We were all aware of what was at stake in a FPTP election.
Almost impossible for Labour to defeat Tories without votes in Scotland. Those seats have now irrevocably gone (IMO).
Add to that Johnson will bring in boundary changes and voter ID to strengthen his hand.
The FPTP system fails our democracy.

They will if they fail in the way some people are saying they will and if they are as right wing as what those same people say.

[RingoMcCartney]

Indeed. Their condescending attitude now is just the same as before the election. They are not cottoning on are they?

Absolutely. Instead they're wildly lashing out at all and sundry. Blaming the usual , imagined , bogey men unable and unwilling to, just for one nano second, consider it is they and their policies but mainly for their brexit betrayal of their former traditional voters, as I said repeatedly. That has seen them suffer the record breaking crushing election defeat.

I repeatedly said that labour had become the Islington dinner party.

I repeatedly warned that, just like in Scotland, if labour is seen as disconnected , aloof and turning its back on its core voters. Which, with its brexit betraying, ridiculous, 2nd referendum policy , it most certainly did. Then the voters will turn its back on Labour.

They have done.

I was right

[RingoMcCartney]

The 2020 election is over, so Labour would make a mistake by looking for someone who could have fought it better. The next leader has to concentrate on providing opposition - and ideally a cogent opposition that is clearly understood, and difficult for the press to misrepresent. Brexit will still be an issue (it won't go away for a long time, because it's far from being "done", and the repercussions will continue), and I believe the government will use it as an excuse (or reason) for continuing with austerity. It's not enough for the new leader to point to broken election promises - where are these forty additional hospitals? - but to press home the different choices a Labour government would make, and the contrast is stark enough. Each year when rail prices get hiked up, and service continues to be poor - the Labour alternative can be set out for the country. The same can be done with water and power. As our internet infrastructure continues to creak along, or as fracking returns to the menu, it can be pointed out that there is an alternative.

For ceaseless remoaners like you Andrew, maybe yes!

But the rest of accept we're leaving. It's done. It's over!

The " JB " tag at the end of your posting name isn't there to throw us off the scent is it?

You're not Andrew Adonis are you !!!!!!!!????



Its you, isn't it!!

I'm having an Eminem, "Stan" moment

[yTib]

I repeatedly said that labour had become the Islington dinner party.

I repeatedly

as apposed to the bullingdon dinner party?

it amazes me that folk are oblivious to the crappy state of our country because of the elite like johnson and his school chums.

a victory for those that advocate this type of governance is surely a pyrrhic one.

[Somethingfishy]

Funny you should say this cos we share some thoughts but view it in a different way.

My view is the traditional working class does not exist to be represented by anyone anymore because with the advancement of society and vastly enriched lives in the western world the middle and working classes have merged into one class.

The working class used to be much more down trodden and rather than fight each other they used to fight against the upper and middle classes. Now these people are better off they have something to lose and so fight against each other and this plays right into the right wing hands

The working class has been replaced by an underclass but where you describe them as workshy and feckless implying they are not worth fighting for I see them as those left behind by a modern society that is uncaring and self absorbed.

The other problem is that other groups get left behind with the underclass like the disabled or refugees or children born into these families through no fault of their own

For me the Labour party should be the party to represent those at the bottom of society without a voice and will also appeal to people like me who see helping those at the bottom instead of appeasing those at the top as a route to a better society for all.

I've said a few times what is needed is a credible 3rd party to represent the centrists who see people like me as do gooders and idealists who will bankrupt the country but who at the same time want the Eton elitists to be kept in line and be challenged.

Unfortunately I think the only way we break the 2 party system is through a change to the voting system but doing that may in itself create as many issues as it resolves.

Whilst I hope the Labour party finds a way to improve its leadership and how it gets out its message out I really hope its policies and principles remain as they have been over the last 4 years.

I don't care that I am in a minority or take notice of the childish tribal insults people dish out to me and people like me cos politics is more than a game to win but about principles and beliefs and I have seen nothing from Johnson and the Tories over the last few years to give me any reason to change my mind

I have to agree with a lot of that. There has certainly been a big socio-economic shift since the 80s I would say. Probably since the traditional industries were closed down such as coal mining and traditional manufacturing. Since that time the north has continued its tradition of voting Labour..based on memory and family ties. That grip is lossening now and that was clearly seen in the election. I don't think anyone truly represents the average working man. Those of us who want to aspire and get on in life but also want fairness in life. We do need a new centre party, especially if Labour stubbornly refuses to budge from its position on the far left. If we get one (which i doubt) then Labour will be consigned to history. I think it is fair to say you are centre left and I am centre right. That said i would prefer to vote for a more centrist Labour party than the Tories. At the moment that is simply not possible and we are left with a remarkable position that the Tories represent the hard working, working class man.

[RingoMcCartney]

as apposed to the bullingdon dinner party?

it amazes me that folk are oblivious to the crappy state of our country because of the elite like johnson and his school chums.

a victory for those that advocate this type of governance is surely a pyrrhic one.

Democracy- it means sometimes, you lose.

Do try and accept this basic principle.

[AndrewJB]

Come on Andrew..the left predicting the future? Not worked out well so far has it? I think from my point of view and judging by friends who have also abandoned Labour..they feel Labour doesnt represent them anymore. They represent the underclasses, the workshy, the feckless. To say the tories represent us might be pushing it but i think they are closer to the working man than Labour currently are...and yes that is a shocking state of affairs and the blame lies squarely at Labours door.

The people you describe as "underclasses", "workshy", and "the feckless" are our fellow citizens. I'm accused of being smug, but I haven't denigrated anyone in the way you just have.

You've described people who "feel" Labour doesn't represent them anymore. I'm not disputing the feeling they get, and I've seen my own relatives in the north reach similar conclusions (just as they have about immigration into the UK). Where I dispute this is in the facts of the matter, and then over the question of how people came to get this feeling.

Show me what policies Labour put forward that work to the disadvantage of working people. When I ask this of older relatives, I'm told that Labour want to let the whole world into the country - which is patently untrue (as I'm sure you'll agree, no more than right wing media rubbish). But if we just bring it down to the fact my relatives would like to see reduced inward migration, and Labour's policies are less restrictive than those of the Tories - my relatives have still been unable to explain to me how it is immigrants are damaging our economy, or their lives. I get things like "the strain on schools, housing, jobs, benefits, the NHS, etc" - which are all things the government has underfunded, despite bringing in more tax from EU newcomers than they have to pay out to them.

In short it's a completely bogus argument, and because people in the "red wall" live in areas largely unaffected by inward migration, the information they get on this is from the media, which has spent decades banging on about how the EU and migrants are the source of all of our problems. I understand that working class people in marginalised areas feel the Labour Party has abandoned them and instead taken the side of "the immigrant" (of which there is no evidence) - but it would be entirely dishonest of the Labour Party to make policy to appease these voters in this fiction. Instead the Labour Party should have taken more time and effort to counter this rightwing press hatred (because that's what it is), but with the decline of unions, that task is more difficult.

[yTib]

Democracy- it means sometimes, you lose.

Do try and accept this basic principle.

i accept it ringo.

the difference is i don't gloat over the fact that we're in for five years of johnson, patel, grayling et al and their ideology of elitism.

your childishness is equal to your zealotry.

[Somethingfishy]

The people you describe as "underclasses", "workshy", and "the feckless" are our fellow citizens. I'm accused of being smug, but I haven't denigrated anyone in the way you just have.

You've described people who "feel" Labour doesn't represent them anymore. I'm not disputing the feeling they get, and I've seen my own relatives in the north reach similar conclusions (just as they have about immigration into the UK). Where I dispute this is in the facts of the matter, and then over the question of how people came to get this feeling.

Show me what policies Labour put forward that work to the disadvantage of working people. When I ask this of older relatives, I'm told that Labour want to let the whole world into the country - which is patently untrue (as I'm sure you'll agree, no more than right wing media rubbish). But if we just bring it down to the fact my relatives would like to see reduced inward migration, and Labour's policies are less restrictive than those of the Tories - my relatives have still been unable to explain to me how it is immigrants are damaging our economy, or their lives. I get things like "the strain on schools, housing, jobs, benefits, the NHS, etc" - which are all things the government has underfunded, despite bringing in more tax from EU newcomers than they have to pay out to them.

In short it's a completely bogus argument, and because people in the "red wall" live in areas largely unaffected by inward migration, the information they get on this is from the media, which has spent decades banging on about how the EU and migrants are the source of all of our problems. I understand that working class people in marginalised areas feel the Labour Party has abandoned them and instead taken the side of "the immigrant" (of which there is no evidence) - but it would be entirely dishonest of the Labour Party to make policy to appease these voters in this fiction. Instead the Labour Party should have taken more time and effort to counter this rightwing press hatred (because that's what it is), but with the decline of unions, that task is more difficult.

So it is perfectly ok to let these people just meander along in life expecting everyone else to pay their way for them? We need to help them get out of this malaise, this attitude which often spans the generations in the same families. That is done by making it pay to work rather than sit on their backsides. The same people that cry that they need foodbanks yet continue to have their luxuries like their beer, fags and quite often drugs. That in itself is a disgrace and in truth they are taking off the people that genuinely need it. Before you argue..this is the case. I know people who have worked in foodbanks and whilst they try to stop these people it just isn't as simple as that.

[Rowls]

It's strange how a bloke working as a prostitute in France cares so much about random and inconsequential aspersions cast on illiterate cloth cap Tories in a backward little corner of England, but here we are, sensitivities assaulted, voice raised, indignation registered on a petty frequency.

Run that by me again please

Hi jojomk1,

I suspect that Spiral's cryptic nonsense is a reference to me. I upset him the other night when I said that calling the voters of Blyth 'stupid' wasn't a particularly helpful stategy for the Left.

you, rowls and and imploded should form a trio.

Any threesomes I'm part of won't include Ringo or ImplodedTurtle.

Thanks for thinking of me tho

[RingoMcCartney]

i accept it ringo.

the difference is i don't gloat over the fact that we're in for five years of johnson, patel, grayling et al and their ideology of elitism.

your childishness is equal to your zealotry.

Say what ever you like.

However, I'm pretty sure that it feels much better to be a "gloating" winner. Than the self-inflicted misery that is brought about from being a sore loser.

Being a brexiteer I'm unfamiliar with such a disposition.

Tell me now, how does it feel?

[AndrewJB]

For ceaseless remoaners like you Andrew, maybe yes!

But the rest of accept we're leaving. It's done. It's over!

The " JB " tag at the end of your posting name isn't there to throw us off the scent is it?

You're not Andrew Adonis are you !!!!!!!!????



Its you, isn't it!!

I'm having an Eminem, "Stan" moment

We are leaving the EU, but it won't be "done" as Johnson claimed, because there will be a trade deal to negotiate, along with many other trade deals. A period of economic dislocation, and then changes here to reflect the new realities. I'm just stating a fact when I say it'll be a while before the dust completely settles. You believe everything will be rosy and wonderful in our newfound independence on 1st February, so let's see who is right.