Next labour leader?

[Clarets4me]

So the people's party may be replacing their leader, the MP for Islington North, by installing the MP for er .. Islington South & Finsbury ...
Who says radicalism is dead ?

[Colburn_Claret]

Something that I just came across in the FT today that seems relevant:

It is relevant, but doesnt answer my question.
What is the back story to these people, what led them to end up on the street?
You say funding for agencies has been cut, and I wouldn't argue, I'm sure that will be the case, but it can't be the only reason.
What happened to friends, family, the agencies that are available.

I still think there is a social problem onging. I was taught to cook, iron, wash my own clothes. My mother didnt want to worry about us when she wasn't there. I did the same with my own children, for the same reason. I wanted them to be strong enough, and wise enough, to take care of themselves. How have we got so many people that cant take care of themself. Surely the greatest part of that is down to something missing in their upbringing.
I dont doubt that there are some very sad cases out there, through small fault of their own, but I expect they would be very few. And whilst the government should be doing all they can to help, I still don't think they should bear all the blame. If we want to make sure fewer people end up on the streets, then surely the best way is to educate our children to be strong and self reliant. Take care of others, but before you take care of others take care of yourself.

[AndrewJB]

Did Momentum ever have the plot in the 1st place,if Labour want to be taken seriously as a potential viable government,they need to clear the decks of these mad lefties ASAP.

This is a genuine question.What do you know about Momentum, and where did you get the information from?

[ksrclaret]

Mystic McCartney strikes again

Sounds like he should be on the register. Probably is.

[clarethomer]

It is relevant, but doesnt answer my question.
What is the back story to these people, what led them to end up on the street?
You say funding for agencies has been cut, and I wouldn't argue, I'm sure that will be the case, but it can't be the only reason.
What happened to friends, family, the agencies that are available.

I still think there is a social problem onging. I was taught to cook, iron, wash my own clothes. My mother didnt want to worry about us when she wasn't there. I did the same with my own children, for the same reason. I wanted them to be strong enough, and wise enough, to take care of themselves. How have we got so many people that cant take care of themself. Surely the greatest part of that is down to something missing in their upbringing.
I dont doubt that there are some very sad cases out there, through small fault of their own, but I expect they would be very few. And whilst the government should be doing all they can to help, I still don't think they should bear all the blame. If we want to make sure fewer people end up on the streets, then surely the best way is to educate our children to be strong and self reliant. Take care of others, but before you take care of others take care of yourself.

Spot on - It is frustrating that such a topic is being sold as a problem of one government or the government at all.

I was in Birmingham last week and I had got a breakfast box from my hotel, which I gave away to a homeless person. I asked him whether he had been out all night or had he been in a shelter. He said that he could go to a shelter but he doesn't like being indoors and that he finds it less stressful to be where he is.

I have experienced other examples where people just cant cope with life in general - having money, not knowing how to deal with it, having responsibility and having depression/anxiety which means they end up losing their home because they bury their heads when it comes to financial matters which results in being evicted etc.

These really complex issues can be supported but not solved by government alone - nor are they caused by government alone. You tend to find people use these issues to promote political arguments and how their party would solve these issues when in reality - they are not solvable fully in reality.

[taio]

This is a genuine question.What do you know about Momentum, and where did you get the information from?

Is it a genuine question, or are you again using it as an opportunity to say that those who dislike Momentum, and feel they have been a damaging force to the Labour Party, only feel like this because of the right wing press? There are many current and former Labour MPs who are decent, moderate and compassionate people who have been scathing about Momentum. Alan Johnson who has good core values was exactly that only a few days ago.

[martin_p]

Is it a genuine question, or are you again using it as an opportunity to say that those who dislike Momentum, and feel they have been a damaging force to the Labour Party, only feel like this because of the right wing press? There are many current and former Labour MPs who are decent, moderate and compassionate people who have been scathing about Momentum. Alan Johnson who has good core values was exactly that only a few days ago.

It’s a question that’s not getting an answer then.

[taio]

It’s a question that’s not getting an answer then.

I've given an answer at least in part ie decent Labour MPs and former MPs. If you want more Google it yourself. I can assure you criticism has come from all angles, not just the right wing media. Denial.

[AndrewJB]

Is it a genuine question, or are you again using it as an opportunity to say that those who dislike Momentum, and feel they have been a damaging force to the Labour Party, only feel like this because of the right wing press? There are many current and former Labour MPs who are decent, moderate and compassionate people who have been scathing about Momentum. Alan Johnson who has good core values was exactly that only a few days ago.

Genuine question. If someone is going to say they’ve read about Momentum in the Times, then that would be them saying their opinion on Momentum is coloured by the right wing press.

[taio]

Genuine question. If someone is going to say they’ve read about Momentum in the Times, then that would be them saying their opinion on Momentum is coloured by the right wing press.

What about if they have read stuff in the Guardian or Independent, or listened carefully to respected Labour MPs?

[AndrewJB]

I've given an answer at least in part ie decent Labour MPs and former MPs. If you want more Google it yourself. I can assure you criticism has come from all angles, not just the right wing media. Denial.

Perhaps you can tell us why you think they’re bad?

[taio]

Perhaps you can tell us why you think they’re bad?

Because they have caused significant disruption in and exercised significant control over the Labour Party peddling their extreme left wing views and influence. It has drove many traditional Labour supporters away. It's one of the key reasons why Labour got hammered last week.

[tiger76]

I really, really hope Lady Nugee wins.

She's even more of touch than Jezza,i can really see her winning swing voters in the North and Midlands not

And she's got plenty of baggage which the Tories will relish in exploiting,added to all that she's representing the seat next door to Corbyn,there is MP'S outwith North London who are available.

[Colburn_Claret]

Frank Field another old Labour MP, who did a lot for pensions and pensioners, hounded out of the party by momentum.
He sided with the government on Brexit, but at the Hustings for the referendum MPs had a free vote, many Labour MPs campaigned for Leave.
He says he was forced out by anti semitism and an influx of 'new found' constituency members. Its a story repeated by many old Labour MPs, that don't feel the need to kow tow to the far left. For a broad church pitical party

[Colburn_Claret]

Frank Field another old Labour MP, who did a lot for pensions and pensioners, hounded out of the party by momentum.
He sided with the government on Brexit, but at the Hustings for the referendum MPs had a free vote, many Labour MPs campaigned for Leave.
He says he was forced out by anti semitism and an influx of 'new found' constituency members. Its a story repeated by many old Labour MPs, that don't feel the need to kow tow to the far left. For a broad church political party they've made it very difficult for everyone who doesn't back them, and its not debate, its threats and intimidation.
When a stalwart like Frank Field can be forced out by some wet behind the ear kids, momentums rent a mob, you can see why people take issue.
Or maybe Frank read about it in the Times.

[AndrewJB]

Because they have caused significant disruption in and exercised significant control over the Labour Party peddling their extreme left wing views and influence. It has drove many traditional Labour supporters away. It's one of the key reasons why Labour got hammered last week.

Extreme left? For wanting to have a state owned railway, like 1980s communist Britain? Why do you feel you have to resort to misrepresentation to make a point? Is your argument so frail you have to beef it up with exaggeration? Have a look at their website and show me the page where they’re calling for the end of private property, or the violent overthrow of the government. It’s not there. They’re not extreme.

[Spiral]

I suspect any members drawn to Thornberry's 'brand', for lack of a better word, would be more naturally drawn to Starmer as a candidate. He offers similar political values but with more composure and less baggage. I still think a non-city leader, or at least, non-London, is essential, though. It's completely inconsequential in terms of leadership and policy, but, in this landscape, with a less conversational, more adversarial, more superficial and meme-driven politics, matters a lot in the voting both. It matter not whether the comment Caroline Flint attributed to Thornberry - the allegation that she called leave constituents thick - was truth or a lie; it matters that people are ready enough to believe it's something she definitely would say. Those comments might be all good and well for some random nobody on the internet like me, but it won't get a candidate elected.

[taio]

Extreme left? For wanting to have a state owned railway, like 1980s communist Britain? Why do you feel you have to resort to misrepresentation to make a point? Is your argument so frail you have to beef it up with exaggeration? Have a look at their website and show me the page where they’re calling for the end of private property, or the violent overthrow of the government. It’s not there. They’re not extreme.

My argument isn't frail. You just disagree with it because you like Momentum. The electorate spoke last week and a key reason for Labour's total failure was Corbynism which would have been positoned even further left if Momentum could have had their way and exercised even more control. I dont need to look anything up because I have a clear view of them based on what I know about them the views of people I respect. What do you think of Alan Johnson's opinion of Momentum and Corbyn?

[clarethomer]

Extreme left? For wanting to have a state owned railway, like 1980s communist Britain? Why do you feel you have to resort to misrepresentation to make a point? Is your argument so frail you have to beef it up with exaggeration? Have a look at their website and show me the page where they’re calling for the end of private property, or the violent overthrow of the government. It’s not there. They’re not extreme.

But it's not that they just want to have a state owned railway is it... come on.

They strive for radical transformation.

Screenshot 2019-12-18 at 21.01.07.png (117.49 KiB) Viewed 1848 times

So how do we define radical in politics?

Screenshot 2019-12-18 at 21.06.44.png (137.92 KiB) Viewed 1848 times

I can see the connection of Momentum to extreme left... can't you?

[martin_p]

But it's not that they just want to have a state owned railway is it... come on.

They strive for radical transformation.

Screenshot 2019-12-18 at 21.01.07.png

So how do we define radical in politics?


Screenshot 2019-12-18 at 21.06.44.png

I can see the connection of Momentum to extreme left... can't you?

Or, given that it appears before the word ‘transformation’ how do we define radical in respect of change. It’s the first definition that applies here.

[martin_p]

Edit - duplicate

[clarethomer]

I agree that Momentum wants to drive radical change... they want to affect the fundamental nature of how society should exist and be governed.

They want to do this through political change and being grassroot activists for the Labour party. Their views are radical in the way that they want to change how government influences and impacts upon society. Their aims goes beyond privatising the railway network, it wants to privatise multiple areas, attack the wealthy, attack corporations, increase taxes, increase costs, increase borrowing beyond the means of repayment..

So whilst accepting the view that transformation does link to change - when you add back in the political element, the term radical does lead you to conclude their aim is to be extreme and those who support it are supportive of extreme left politics.

[AndrewJB]

But it's not that they just want to have a state owned railway is it... come on.

They strive for radical transformation.

Screenshot 2019-12-18 at 21.01.07.png

So how do we define radical in politics?


Screenshot 2019-12-18 at 21.06.44.png

I can see the connection of Momentum to extreme left... can't you?

Their other policies are similar. There’s nothing there that is far left.

[martin_p]

The word ‘radical’ appears in the Tory manifesto, are we to draw the same conclusion? I’m no big fan on Momentum, but to pull out that sentence and try and make it into something it isn’t as proof of Momentum’s inherent danger to the country is ridiculous!

[clarethomer]

Their other policies are similar. There’s nothing there that is far left.

If you are already far leaning to the left yourself, I can understand why they don't seem far left to someone in that position.

However to keep on point - do you now accept why people see them as the extreme left given that it looks that way to someone who isn't left and to define them in this way is a valid position to take if you don't share the same view as you?

[clarethomer]

The word ‘radical’ appears in the Tory manifesto, are we to draw the same conclusion? I’m no big fan on Momentum, but to pull out that sentence and try and make it into something it isn’t as proof of Momentum’s inherent danger to the country is ridiculous!

I have tried to explain why someone might see momentum as extreme left to answer AndrewJB's post.

For someone who is left, I can see why they see some policies from the tories as being extreme on the right.

I'm not going to get all defensive about some words - i was merely trying to explain why some people see momentum as extreme.

[Goalposts]

Angela raynor has absolutely no intellect or ability to handle any serious concept or thought process..she is seriously dim
Kier starmer is clever and smart having a barister background but a commited remainer which may affect him
Rebecca wrong daily is a corbyn stooge and maintains control for the hard left centre.
When you look at the shadow cabinet it is seriously incompetent and scary to think that these people had a chance to take the reins of govt and manage the ministries and the budgets

all thats wrong with labour can be traced back to when david milliband lost to his brother, and any hope of a centre left party was lost. I know labour zealots now who consider Blair a tory who stole the soul of a true labour movement

[martin_p]

I have tried to explain why someone might see momentum as extreme left to answer AndrewJB's post.

For someone who is left, I can see why they see some policies from the tories as being extreme on the right.

I'm not going to get all defensive about some words - i was merely trying to explain why some people see momentum as extreme.

So you must define groups like Britain First and the BNP as ‘a bit right wing’ if you’re defining everything relative to yourself?

Do you consider the post war Attlee government as ‘extreme left wing’v

[AndrewJB]

My argument isn't frail. You just disagree with it because you like Momentum. The electorate spoke last week and a key reason for Labour's total failure was Corbynism which would have been positoned even further left if Momentum could have had their way and exercised even more control. I dont need to look anything up because I have a clear view of them based on what I know about them the views of people I respect. What do you think of Alan Johnson's opinion of Momentum and Corbyn?

Had the media been calling Johnson a fascist for the last three years, highlighting him placing the wreath upside down at the Cenotaph as an example of how he hates Britain, how his racist, homophobic, and misogynist parts to his columns make him unfit to govern, and how the report into Russian interference in our democracy which he refused to publish shows he’s a security risk - then the British public might have rejected the Tories instead.

As for Johnson, he’s opposed Corbyn from the outset. When there was talk of Labour MPs being deselected by unhappy constituents, that was described as “Corbynist undemocratic purges” (even though constituents were often angry about things that predated Corbyn) - however when the PLP attempted a coup against Corbyn, and began kicking people out of the party who they thought might vote for him - that was fine. As it turned out there were no mass deselections, though nobody praised Corbyn for his tolerance, and when Johnson sacked twenty-odd MPs, that wasn’t a purge, but a master stroke. We’ll see whether Alan Johnson takes the big tent approach to the forty thousand Momentum people, or the Stalinist one - and then we can see who is more democratic.

[clarethomer]

I think those groups are abhorrent and have no place in society.

Not sure what I have said that would indicate that my view would be to define those groups in the way you think I would?

I think if i was to classify myself on my political leaning, I would be in the centre. I support a mix of public and private provided services . I support the ability to be encouraged to be successful in business and I think we should do more to help those who are genuinely in need of help.

I accept that not all problems can be solved

I find it sad that we have some of the social issues that we have

I wish there was a magic pill that would mean we could end poverty and everyone could be happy

I accept that the world is not perfect and that there are financial realities and that society itself has a responsibility to help those that need it in addition to the government.

Had Labour been more centrist in their policies and not played party politics since Brexit, they would have got my vote. I often look at each party and decide on which way to vote with no allegiance to a party based on what I have voted historically.

[Goalposts]

Momentum is the equivalent of the stasi within the labour movement, if you are not of the right thinking or a corbynite at heart you will be deselected.

[taio]

Had the media been calling Johnson a fascist for the last three years, highlighting him placing the wreath upside down at the Cenotaph as an example of how he hates Britain, how his racist, homophobic, and misogynist parts to his columns make him unfit to govern, and how the report into Russian interference in our democracy which he refused to publish shows he’s a security risk - then the British public might have rejected the Tories instead.

As for Johnson, he’s opposed Corbyn from the outset. When there was talk of Labour MPs being deselected by unhappy constituents, that was described as “Corbynist undemocratic purges” (even though constituents were often angry about things that predated Corbyn) - however when the PLP attempted a coup against Corbyn, and began kicking people out of the party who they thought might vote for him - that was fine. As it turned out there were no mass deselections, though nobody praised Corbyn for his tolerance, and when Johnson sacked twenty-odd MPs, that wasn’t a purge, but a master stroke. We’ll see whether Alan Johnson takes the big tent approach to the forty thousand Momentum people, or the Stalinist one - and then we can see who is more democratic.

When will people like Corbyn and Momentum supporters like you learn? That Labour endured catastrophe in the general election because of the path they took. The stance on Brexit. The wish list manifesto. The incompentent leadership that wasn't credible and influenced by Momentum. To the extent that they lost millions of traditional and moderate Labour voters. You ignore these crucial factors and keeping suggesting these people have simply been brainwashed by the media. The 'movement' failed. Fantasy land. Blame yourselves.

[martin_p]

Momentum is the equivalent of the stasi within the labour movement, if you are not of the right thinking or a corbynite at heart you will be deselected.

Tell that the the 21 Tory ‘rebels’ who were effectively hounded out of the party.

[RingoMcCartney]

To restore some semblance of respectability. Labour could do a lot worse than Dan Jarvis.

He voted Remain , we all have a cross to bear/bare. By the time the next general election comes around, we'll be enjoying a post Brexit boom and the vast vast majority of voters will have accepted the referendum result and will have moved on.

(sadly, I fear a handful of UTC messageboard remoaners will still be clinging on to their, long forgotten Little Europeaner, United States of Socialist Europe, dream!)

[If it be your will]

When will people like Corbyn and Momentum supporters like you learn? That Labour endured catastrophe in the general election because of the path they took. The stance on Brexit. The wish list manifesto. The incompentent leadership that wasn't credible and influenced by Momentum. To the extent that they lost millions of traditional and moderate Labour voters. You ignore these crucial factors and keeping suggesting these people have simply been brainwashed by the media. The 'movement' failed. Fantasy land. Blame yourselves.

I'm not sure it's about learning. I'm not especially convinced Labour can win a GE on genuinely left wing ticket either. But there's an awful lot of us on the left that simply don't see much point of Labour winning if it's with a Blair-type agenda. I'm only speaking for myself here, but I think I'd actually rather have Boris in charge than Blair (or Yvette Cooper these days). It's not that I waste my time despising Blair or Yvette or anything, just that that sort of thing does nothing for me.

Whether this is the majority view amongst Labour members remains to be seen - I honestly don't know. Who do you want to win the Labour leadership?

[dsr]

Tell that the the 21 Tory ‘rebels’ who were effectively hounded out of the party.

You can't seriously expect the Conservative party to allow people to stand as Conservatives when their aim is to bring down the Conservative government. As it happens the Tories have a majority of 80; but if it had been only 20, say, then the 21 supposed Tories would have been able to bring down Boris, or at the very least ensure that the recent parliamentary chaos continued.

Anyway, half of them were reinstated when they repented and started supporting the PM again.

[Right_winger]

Who cares about labour, their views are reminiscent of all that is wrong with society today.

[Colburn_Claret]

I'm not sure it's about learning. I'm not especially convinced Labour can win a GE on genuinely left wing ticket either. But there's an awful lot of us on the left that simply don't see much point of Labour winning if it's with a Blair-type agenda. I'm only speaking for myself here, but I think I'd actually rather have Boris in charge than Blair (or Yvette Cooper these days). It's not that I waste my time despising Blair or Yvette or anything, just that that sort of thing does nothing for me.

Whether this is the majority view amongst Labour members remains to be seen - I honestly don't know. Who do you want to win the Labour leadership?

Labour winning with a Blair type agenda. It depends what you are voting for, and what you want them to deliver.
I thought New Labour delivered a hell of a lot. New schools, old schools refurbished. School supplies, people forget how kids were sharing dog eared text books, and the paint was peeling from so many walls. The partnership with big business worked until the financial crisis.
If you genuinely want to help the less fortunate in this country, the first thing you have to understand is you cant help anyone in opposition.
The far left seem far more interested in punishing the well off, than they are in helping the less fortunate . Corbyns manifesto would have hurt the well off, but it wouldnt have helped anyone. Not in the long term. It is possible to help people up, without dragging others down, all it takes is the will. He had a manifesto from the dark ages, to solve social issues that havent existed for decades, it wasn't a manifesto for the future.

Those who support Corbyn and the left need to ask themselves why they support them, what is more important, helping those in need, or making the country more 'equal'. Because one isnt dependant on the other. A lesson they need to learn if they ever hope to be a political force again.

[mdd2]

Isn't this a repeat of the 1980's until Kinnock sorted things paving the way for Smith and Blair?
If I understand the Labour Party, the next leader will be Corbyn Mark 2. No left of centre MP will get anywhere with the apparent hold that Momentum and its followers have on the party infrastructure-following nomination isn't it one member, one vote in the election? I think most of the 500,000 members were recruited post Corbyn's election so I imagine the closet Blairites will not stand a chance in this election

[taio]

I'm not sure it's about learning. I'm not especially convinced Labour can win a GE on genuinely left wing ticket either. But there's an awful lot of us on the left that simply don't see much point of Labour winning if it's with a Blair-type agenda. I'm only speaking for myself here, but I think I'd actually rather have Boris in charge than Blair (or Yvette Cooper these days). It's not that I waste my time despising Blair or Yvette or anything, just that that sort of thing does nothing for me.

Whether this is the majority view amongst Labour members remains to be seen - I honestly don't know. Who do you want to win the Labour leadership?

I think the party needs to move forward from a centre left moderate position. Of the front runners that means Nandy - I believe she would do the best job and her values are most aligned to traditional labour voters. But I expect the membership - heavily influenced by the unions and Momentum - will select Long Bailey.

[martin_p]

You can't seriously expect the Conservative party to allow people to stand as Conservatives when their aim is to bring down the Conservative government. As it happens the Tories have a majority of 80; but if it had been only 20, say, then the 21 supposed Tories would have been able to bring down Boris, or at the very least ensure that the recent parliamentary chaos continued.

Anyway, half of them were reinstated when they repented and started supporting the PM again.

Don’t be so melodramatic. They didn’t agree with their government’s policy so voted against it (as did Boris Johnson earlier this year). If they’d wanted to bring the government down they’d have voted against it in a no confidence motion and they didn’t. It’s absolutely no different to what Momentum are being accused of, get with the plan or get out!

[UpTheClaretsFCBK]

Keir Starmer would be my pick, but it's a massive rebuild job for the whole movement. Whatever happens in the leadership race, there will be a mass exodus of membership, either from the left or from the moderates.

[TheFamilyCat]

Dan Jarvis sounds like he has his head screwed on.

https://labourlist.org/2019/12/lessons- ... -barnsley/

[taio]

Dan Jarvis sounds like he has his head screwed on.

https://labourlist.org/2019/12/lessons- ... -barnsley/

Some honest and frank reflection there. Unlike the far left, who suggest the result is simply down to the right wing media implying that people are too thick to distill information from multiple sources to arrive at their opinion, he has put forward real reasons for Labour's failure:

"The biggest obstacle faced on the doorstep was undoubtedly our party’s leadership. The disdain voters held was for a plethora of reasons, with virtually nobody believing Jeremy could be trusted to lead our country.

The second most prominent reason for our collapse was our Brexit stance. We were perceived as a party of Remainers, intent on disrespecting the democratic decision made in 2016. Nearly everyone was exhausted by the delay, uncertainty and debate around a second referendum.

Thirdly, our manifesto – while full of ambitious individual offers – was viewed by most as unrealistic. That is not to say the level and scale of change on offer is not deliverable but the groundwork preparing people for it was not laid. In the end, it cut through, but in a negative rather than positive way."

[If it be your will]

Labour winning with a Blair type agenda. It depends what you are voting for, and what you want them to deliver.
I thought New Labour delivered a hell of a lot. New schools, old schools refurbished. School supplies, people forget how kids were sharing dog eared text books, and the paint was peeling from so many walls. The partnership with big business worked until the financial crisis.
If you genuinely want to help the less fortunate in this country, the first thing you have to understand is you cant help anyone in opposition.
The far left seem far more interested in punishing the well off, than they are in helping the less fortunate . Corbyns manifesto would have hurt the well off, but it wouldnt have helped anyone. Not in the long term. It is possible to help people up, without dragging others down, all it takes is the will. He had a manifesto from the dark ages, to solve social issues that havent existed for decades, it wasn't a manifesto for the future.

Those who support Corbyn and the left need to ask themselves why they support them, what is more important, helping those in need, or making the country more 'equal'. Because one isnt dependant on the other. A lesson they need to learn if they ever hope to be a political force again.

I thought New Labour were awful, but there you go, I suppose.

[Erasmus]

I didn't much care for New Labour either and the Iraq War was absolutely awful, showing Blair up in a terrible light. But the main thing we want is support for the most deprived sections of society in the form of proper education, a properly funded NHS, social care for the elderly, an end to the cruelty of Universal Credit, action to help the homeless etc etc, and on all such issues the Blair governments achieved much, much more than Michael Foot and Jeremy Corbyn simply because he could get elected.

However much one may admire Michael Foot, and I admired him immensely, the fact remains that Blair did more for disadvantaged people than Michael did. It can't be all or nothing, we have to be pragmatic and accept that doing something is better than the nothing that is the inevitable consequence of being out of office.

Small achievements are better than no achievements at all, and the folly of selecting Corbyn as leader of the Labour Party means that those who need our help the most will get no help because the Conservative Party will be in power for at least the next five years.

[BennyD]

Angela raynor has absolutely no intellect or ability to handle any serious concept or thought process..she is seriously dim
Kier starmer is clever and smart having a barister background but a commited remainer which may affect him
Rebecca wrong daily is a corbyn stooge and maintains control for the hard left centre.
When you look at the shadow cabinet it is seriously incompetent and scary to think that these people had a chance to take the reins of govt and manage the ministries and the budgets

all thats wrong with labour can be traced back to when david milliband lost to his brother, and any hope of a centre left party was lost. I know labour zealots now who consider Blair a tory who stole the soul of a true labour movement

Blair did what was necessary to win power. He realised something which Momentum hasn’t; this country doesn’t want a left wing government as shown by their recent tanking.

[If it be your will]

I didn't much care for New Labour either and the Iraq War was absolutely awful, showing Blair up in a terrible light. But the main thing we want is support for the most deprived sections of society in the form of proper education, a properly funded NHS, social care for the elderly, an end to the cruelty of Universal Credit, action to help the homeless etc etc, and on all such issues the Blair governments achieved much, much more than Michael Foot and Jeremy Corbyn simply because he could get elected.

However much one may admire Michael Foot, and I admired him immensely, the fact remains that Blair did more for disadvantaged people than Michael did. It can't be all or nothing, we have to be pragmatic and accept that doing something is better than the nothing that is the inevitable consequence of being out of office.

Small achievements are better than no achievements at all, and the folly of selecting Corbyn as leader of the Labour Party means that those who need our help the most will get no help because the Conservative Party will be in power for at least the next five years.

Marketising the NHS has resulted in the ineffective, overmanaged dog's dinner it is today, introducing competition and aggressive accountability in primary education resulted in widespread SATs cheating, a poisoning of trust, and rendering league tables meaningless, turning schools into academies led to corruption, amorality and loss of good teachers, market-based competition in tertiary education resulted in the university system becoming the massive scam it is today, introducing a profit motive into local authorities resulted in ineptitude and corruption, laissez faire 'light touch' regulation of finance directly contributed to the ruinous financial crisis, PFI was an unmitigated and stupidly expensive disaster, real wages stagnated under Blair, but ridiculously easy availability of credit (itself a result of 'light touch') to fill the gap resulted in everyone loading up on debt, Alistair Campbell and the endless empty spin, and Iraq. Jesus, Iraq. And that's all just for starters.

Minimum wage. I'll give him minimum wage. I can't immediately think of any other positive legacy from his 12 years, though. But if that's what you're after, Erasmus, vote for Yvette Cooper!

[aggi]

It is relevant, but doesnt answer my question.
What is the back story to these people, what led them to end up on the street?
You say funding for agencies has been cut, and I wouldn't argue, I'm sure that will be the case, but it can't be the only reason.
What happened to friends, family, the agencies that are available.

I still think there is a social problem onging. I was taught to cook, iron, wash my own clothes. My mother didnt want to worry about us when she wasn't there. I did the same with my own children, for the same reason. I wanted them to be strong enough, and wise enough, to take care of themselves. How have we got so many people that cant take care of themself. Surely the greatest part of that is down to something missing in their upbringing.
I dont doubt that there are some very sad cases out there, through small fault of their own, but I expect they would be very few. And whilst the government should be doing all they can to help, I still don't think they should bear all the blame. If we want to make sure fewer people end up on the streets, then surely the best way is to educate our children to be strong and self reliant. Take care of others, but before you take care of others take care of yourself.

Regardless of whether the it was better back in the good old days narrative is true (I've not seen any compelling evidence to suggest that it is a major factor) do you think the best way to deal with the problem now is to slash funding to the organisations that are helping with the current homeless problem?

These people aren't going to have their youth again and be educated to be strong and reliant, are you suggesting that we should just write them off and focus on a generation or two later?

Also, in terms of upbringing and community, initiatives such as the sure start centres were meant to help with that. However, again, their funding has been cut by over 50%.

My view is that a lot of this cost-cutting is a false economy. You save a bit of money on mental health or addiction services and as a result the police, courts, hospitals, etc incur five times the cost.

[tiger76]

Clive Lewis joins Emily Thornberry in officially putting his name forwards,he seems to be another Corbynista,and is keen to distance himself from the Blair and Brown years.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50861140

Surely a centrist will stand,if it's just a choice between varying degrees of left-wingers,and the continuation of a failed experiment,Labour won't be making much progress in electoral terms,however if Momentum want a purist socialist party,then they'll no doubt get their wish.