Hugh Grant! Jim Royle! Little Mix! Gary Neville ! Norris McWhirter! Michael Foot!

[houseboy]

Have you missed the point where had the London Bridge attacker served his full sentence, there would have been no requirement for the released killer to save lives, as none would have been under threat

True mate, very true. But if the life saver had served his full sentence more may have died. Chicken and egg I suppose.

[dsr]

I think you need to stop digging that hole mate. Corbyn was 22 at the wreath laying business.

Corbyn turned 23 before the Munich Olympic massacre happened. He certainly wasn't 22 when he attended the wreath laying ceremony - that happened in 2014, when he was 64 or 65. Old enough to know better, one would have thought?

[houseboy]

Corbyn turned 23 before the Munich Olympic massacre happened. He certainly wasn't 22 when he attended the wreath laying ceremony - that happened in 2014, when he was 64 or 65. Old enough to know better, one would have thought?

Ah...long enough to bury grudges then methinks?

[dsr]

Ah...long enough to bury grudges then methinks?

Not for me. My feelings for those who murder unarmed men and women in cold blood goes quite along way beyond a "grudge" and smiley faces.

[houseboy]

Not for me. My feelings for those who murder unarmed men and women in cold blood goes quite along way beyond a "grudge" and smiley faces.

I was trying to lighten up the conversation but let me ask you a question.
Do you believe that we should never negotiate or try to come terms with these people?

[rob63]

One of the most vitriolic hate campaigns ever endured by a British party leader, which unfortunately too many people swallowed. That's what his excuse is. We now have the rather comic scenario of Boris the Buffoon leading us for the next 4/5 years. You couldn't make it up. At least we might get Brexit done now.

If aliens invaded Earth and said take us to your leaders and met Trump and Johnson they wouldn't be able to walk for laughing.

At least we can feel superior to the Yanks safe in the knowledge we'd never stoop as low as electing a vain, womanising, self-interested, power-hungry buffoon like Trump........ ooerr, hang on!

[houseboy]

At least we can feel superior to the Yanks safe in the knowledge we'd never stoop as low as electing a vain, womanising, self-interested, power-hungry buffoon like Trump........ ooerr, hang on!

Ooh 'er matron.
You know bud I've decided that taking things too seriously is not the way to go any more. When you look at many of the worlds leaders it is more and more obvious that 'those who stand for office are by default not fit to hold it'. Trump, Boris ( to be fair he does entertain me) and especially that clown in charge of North Korea who seems to do a childlike dance of joy when he is happy, come to mind. That's not to mention the collection of egocentric megalomaniacs who seem to rule at least half of the third world and super rich arab leaders who treat human rights and women as though they are an afterthought.
The world has gone mad bud so we might as well go mad with it. Why should we care too much when we live in a world where we spend more money on ways to kill people than we do on making life better (and to any pedants I don't give a sh!te if that is not statistically totally accurate).
Comedy is now the best medicine and all this fake outrage from people who in the end don't really care can go and stuff itself.

[dsr]

I was trying to lighten up the conversation but let me ask you a question.
Do you believe that we should never negotiate or try to come terms with these people?

It's obviously difficult to come to terms with someone who sees it as his divine duty to kill you, but if in certain circumstances terms can be made, then it may be the right thing to do.

But not to the extent of attending wreath laying ceremonies at the grave of some of the most egregious offenders. Let me ask you a question - we are now friends with Germany and don't need to come to terms. But if we did need to come to terms, would you attend a wreath laying ceremony for a member of the SS?

[rob63]

Things like

Democracy, such as accepting referendum outcomes.

Equal opportunity.

A good education and 'free' health care for it's own people.

A free press and expecting that people are able to decide for themselves what is best for them. For example of people choose to buy a particular paper, what has that got to do with anyone else?
.
Security of the state and its people is paramount.

Rewarding hardwork and endeavour, whilst supporting those that are unable to support themselves.

Facilitatating a mixed economy.

Ensuring that crime does not pay.

Providing leadership to the world on key issues such as climate change.

That's going well then!

[houseboy]

It's obviously difficult to come to terms with someone who sees it as his divine duty to kill you, but if in certain circumstances terms can be made, then it may be the right thing to do.

But not to the extent of attending wreath laying ceremonies at the grave of some of the most egregious offenders. Let me ask you a question - we are now friends with Germany and don't need to come to terms. But if we did need to come to terms, would you attend a wreath laying ceremony for a member of the SS?

So you don't think that by attending any such ceremony you are building a trust and a relationship that in the end may well benefit everyone? Isn't part of the building of bridges between enemies based on some kind of forgiveness? Don't forget that the party that propped up the last Tory government had roots in the UDV and such like that were themselves terrorists, or were they not seen as such by some because they supported English rule. Just wondered what you think.
As for attending an SS funeral why not if the hatchet has been buried. How long do we carry on the hatred? How long do we bear those grudges? Some of the worst attrocities of the second world war were carried out by the Japanese, do we not now trade freely with them. Hirohito's funeral was attended by, among others, the then president of the european union, Margaret Thatcher, George Bush, various other European leaders and many members of European royalty (but none of ours it seems) despite many veterans of the war in the east saying this shouldn't be so. So in attending and against the wishes of veterans who suffered at their hands is not Thatcher just as guilty if not more so than Corbyn?
Where do you draw the line? Wherever it suits you (the general you not specifically you)?
There are skeletons in most political cupboards but it seems only those skeletons of your political enemies matter.

[dsr]

So you don't think that by attending any such ceremony you are building a trust and a relationship that in the end may well benefit everyone? Isn't part of the building of bridges between enemies based on some kind of forgiveness? Don't forget that the party that propped up the last Tory government had roots in the UDV and such like that were themselves terrorists, or were they not seen as such by some because they supported English rule. Just wondered what you think.
As for attending an SS funeral why not if the hatchet has been buried. How long do we carry on the hatred? How long do we bear those grudges? Some of the worst attrocities of the second world war were carried out by the Japanese, do we not now trade freely with them. Hirohito's funeral was attended by, among others, the then president of the european union, Margaret Thatcher, George Bush, various other European leaders and many members of European royalty (but none of ours it seems) despite many veterans of the war in the east saying this shouldn't be so. So in attending and against the wishes of veterans who suffered at their hands is not Thatcher just as guilty if not more so than Corbyn?
Where do you draw the line? Wherever it suits you (the general you not specifically you)?
There are skeletons in most political cupboards but it seems only those skeletons of your political enemies matter.

I don't think you can forgive someone who doesn't want to be forgiven. These Palestinians honouring their "martyrs" were not doing so in a spirit of regret for what they did.

There is a line where we should say "this is not acceptable and never will be acceptable and we will never accept it". Murdering Olympic athletes, for me, is that side of the line. For you, it isn't. End of story.

[rob63]

Ooh 'er matron.
You know bud I've decided that taking things too seriously is not the way to go any more. When you look at many of the worlds leaders it is more and more obvious that 'those who stand for office are by default not fit to hold it'. Trump, Boris ( to be fair he does entertain me) and especially that clown in charge of North Korea who seems to do a childlike dance of joy when he is happy, come to mind. That's not to mention the collection of egocentric megalomaniacs who seem to rule at least half of the third world and super rich arab leaders who treat human rights and women as though they are an afterthought.
The world has gone mad bud so we might as well go mad with it. Why should we care too much when we live in a world where we spend more money on ways to kill people than we do on making life better (and to any pedants I don't give a sh!te if that is not statistically totally accurate).
Comedy is now the best medicine and all this fake outrage from people who in the end don't really care can go and stuff itself.

It was Groucho Marx who said along the lines that he would never become a member of a club that would have someone like him as a member.

Politics, & in particular it's leaders make me feel more & more like this every day!

[houseboy]

I don't think you can forgive someone who doesn't want to be forgiven. These Palestinians honouring their "martyrs" were not doing so in a spirit of regret for what they did.

There is a line where we should say "this is not acceptable and never will be acceptable and we will never accept it". Murdering Olympic athletes, for me, is that side of the line. For you, it isn't. End of story.

Do you think that Olympic athletes are more important than general members of the public murdered by German bombs? Or British soldiers tortured and murdered by the Japanese? What about the countless numbers of human beings treated like dogs by us in their own country on the Indian sub-continent? You cannot single out one thing just because someone you don't like tried to bury the hatchett and then try to use it against them. The Tories backed by ex-terrorists. Thatcher honouring a man who was described as one of the worst war criminals of the second world war by attending his state funeral and putting two fingers up to our war veterans. It's the pointing of fingers by those who have their own skeletons that is irksome. If Corbyn did wrong then so did Thatcher. If Thatcher did no harm then neither did Corbyn.

There will be no end to this story (not this thread thank goodness) until people realise that when you point a finger three more are pointing back at you.

[dsr]

Do you think that Olympic athletes are more important than general members of the public murdered by German bombs? Or British soldiers tortured and murdered by the Japanese? What about the countless numbers of human beings treated like dogs by us in their own country on the Indian sub-continent? You cannot single out one thing just because someone you don't like tried to bury the hatchett and then try to use it against them. The Tories backed by ex-terrorists. Thatcher honouring a man who was described as one of the worst war criminals of the second world war by attending his state funeral and putting two fingers up to our war veterans. It's the pointing of fingers by those who have their own skeletons that is irksome. If Corbyn did wrong then so did Thatcher. If Thatcher did no harm then neither did Corbyn.

There will be no end to this story (not this thread thank goodness) until people realise that when you point a finger three more are pointing back at you.

Like I said, it's hard to forgive someone that doesn't want forgiveness. The Japanese - whether voluntarily or by force majeure - have repented and apologised. The Munich terrorists have not.

As for the German bombs, once again we agree to differ. If the Germans wanted to lay a wreath at a memorial for Hitler and his staff (which they don't), then I would not be there. You and Mr. Corbyn could make your own minds up.

And even

[houseboy]

Like I said, it's hard to forgive someone that doesn't want forgiveness. The Japanese - whether voluntarily or by force majeure - have repented and apologised. The Munich terrorists have not.

As for the German bombs, once again we agree to differ. If the Germans wanted to lay a wreath at a memorial for Hitler and his staff (which they don't), then I would not be there. You and Mr. Corbyn could make your own minds up.

And even

You and I would never be invited mate so the theory can't be tested. As far as the Japanese situation goes it appears that you absolve them because they said sorry, which I don't necesarrilly disagree with, but they killed and tortured tens of thousands of people in the prisoner of war camps alone, they also inflicted horrific pain and death on many in prison hospitals that carried out shocking experiments, and this doesn't include the civilians who suffered and died. To say they were inhumane would be the ultimate understatement. 13k alone died building the Burma railroad.

12 people died in Munich.

[AndrewJB]

I don't think you can forgive someone who doesn't want to be forgiven. These Palestinians honouring their "martyrs" were not doing so in a spirit of regret for what they did.

There is a line where we should say "this is not acceptable and never will be acceptable and we will never accept it". Murdering Olympic athletes, for me, is that side of the line. For you, it isn't. End of story.

It would be nice if our government drew that line with Saudi Arabia and stopped selling them weapons to use against Yemeni villagers (or allow to fall into the hands of IS fighters). Here’s you getting upset about a man who was attempting to create peace, and then having nothing to say about our government selling arms to murderous regimes. The sheer hypocrisy of it is shameful. Like the Daily Mail stoking the antiSemitism controversy after happily getting antiSemitic on Miliband.

[dsr]

You and I would never be invited mate so the theory can't be tested. As far as the Japanese situation goes it appears that you absolve them because they said sorry, which I don't necesarrilly disagree with, but they killed and tortured tens of thousands of people in the prisoner of war camps alone, they also inflicted horrific pain and death on many in prison hospitals that carried out shocking experiments, and this doesn't include the civilians who suffered and died. To say they were inhumane would be the ultimate understatement. 13k alone died building the Burma railroad.

12 people died in Munich.

I don't absolve them. I put it in the past and move on.

If your next door neighbour is chucking bricks through your window and then stops doing it, you can perhaps repair relations and live in relative peace. But if your neighbour chucks bricks through your windows and carries on doing it, it's harder to do.

Attending a memorial to one of the more notorious murderers of a murderous ongoing campaign, is a gesture of support to the murderers.

[houseboy]

I don't absolve them. I put it in the past and move on.

If your next door neighbour is chucking bricks through your window and then stops doing it, you can perhaps repair relations and live in relative peace. But if your neighbour chucks bricks through your windows and carries on doing it, it's harder to do.

Attending a memorial to one of the more notorious murderers of a murderous ongoing campaign, is a gesture of support to the murderers.

Just to be clear here dsr, are you talking about Islamic terrorists here or the Palestinians? The two are not the same. Islamic terrorism is an ongoing and definite problem, the Palestinian situation is completely different. Palestinians these days are the victims not the aggressors (of course there is aggression towards Israel but that is understandable given the actions of the Israelis). And what of the Israelis? They carry out attrocities on a regular basis on the people of Palestine and yet we, as a nation, consider them friends (well our government does, I certainly don't). In fact it would appear that much of the 'anti-semitic' claim against Corbyn comes from his criticism of Israel, which many don't (or won't) see as a different matter.
You mustn't let your hatred of Corbyn cloud your judgement, as I said there is no difference whatsoever between Corbyn attending a wreath laying and Thatcher attending Hirohito's funeral, none whatsoever, and to think or say otherwise is really just showing a political bias.

[houseboy]

It would be nice if our government drew that line with Saudi Arabia and stopped selling them weapons to use against Yemeni villagers (or allow to fall into the hands of IS fighters). Here’s you getting upset about a man who was attempting to create peace, and then having nothing to say about our government selling arms to murderous regimes. The sheer hypocrisy of it is shameful. Like the Daily Mail stoking the antiSemitism controversy after happily getting antiSemitic on Miliband.

Absolutely. But unfortunately many on the right don't see it that way. You only have to look at the Tory election campaign (any campaign of recent years), they don't emphasise what they want to do they just play the fear card and launch what has been termed 'negative' campaigning, just concentrating on criticising the opposition. If you don't vote for us the bogeyman will get you. The same is true of the Corbyn hate campaign, and it worked, but democracy is all the much weaker because of it.