Second Scottish Referendum

CaptainKirk · Post by **CaptainKirk** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:21 am

Why can’t they have one?
If they lose again they will presumably shut up unless they go for best of five.
If they win - is anybody bothered?
What would it cost the rest of us if they went alone, or would we actually benefit?
It might be neck and neck so perhaps we should let all of the UK vote as it affects us all - it certainly won’t be neck and neck then I would guess.

jrgbfc · Post by **jrgbfc** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:23 am

Fair play to em, if I were up there I wouldn't want to be ruled by the Tories either. They care even less about Scitland than they do the North of England.

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:28 am

A majority of people voted for unionist parties.

That's how it works isn't it ?

bfcjg · Post by **bfcjg** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:40 am

How about a vote to see if we English people want to get rid of the moaning, grabbing,ungrateful jocks ? I for one now would as I am sick and tired of the anti English ranting coming from North of the border. They would then expect Europe or should I say the German taxpayer to give them more then they actually contribute.

Sproggy · Post by **Sproggy** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:42 am

Let's get out of Europe first, then give Jimmy her referendum.

Burnleyareback2 · Post by **Burnleyareback2** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:48 am

bfcjg wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:40 am
How about a vote to see if we English people want to get rid of the moaning, grabbing,ungrateful jocks ? I for one now would as I am sick and tired of the anti English ranting coming from North of the border. They would then expect Europe or should I say the German taxpayer to give them more then they actually contribute.

Agreed

Grumps · Post by **Grumps** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:49 am

Britain, including Scotland leaves Europe on 31st January next year. Any vote for Scottish independence would be after that, and if it was a yes vote, it would leave them out of Europe, and separated from Britain, giving them complete independence, good luck with that one, let them go for it.

clarethomer · Post by **clarethomer** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:08 am

For me, we need to get to DEC 2020 and focus on Brexit and getting all the funding into hospitals, schools and policing etc. I can’t see how this will be a priority given that we have years of indecision now to move forward the whole UK.

If Scotland want a referendum then we should make it clear up front what this means but that we won’t discuss this until we have completed trade talks with EU. Once we have that,this will allow Scotland to fully understand the position that they are in.

They need to also understand that a break from the Union is not good for the union and therefore shouldn’t expect us to make it easy..

I think that the EU application needs exploring by them also before they start making moves given it’s almost guaranteed that Spain will have a say in refusing the entry because of their political challenges with the Catalonians

ElectroClaret · Post by **ElectroClaret** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:13 am

CaptainKirk wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:21 am

If they lose again they will presumably shut up....

You really believe that?

Pidgeon · Post by **Pidgeon** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:17 am

Let them go for it and I’d love them to say yes. It would be funny to watch.

Tinribs · Post by **Tinribs** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:18 am

Chip on Jimmy Krankies shoulder gets bigger with every sip of irn bru

ClaretAndJew · Post by **ClaretAndJew** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:39 am

Think about all the things you think about Scotland and apply them to how the EU see England.

Blackrod · Post by **Blackrod** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:41 am

If they get their way I wonder if N Ireland would follow. They wouldn’t fair so well economically at all.

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:42 am

CaptainKirk wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:21 am
If they lose again they will presumably shut up unless they go for best of five.

Firstly, what have you seen that makes you think they'd shut up?

Secondly, why would they need "Best of five". They play last goal wins. By the rules the Scots would play to, we'd have got 3 points against City. We got the last goal.

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:43 am

I'd love them to go. A hard border is part of the deal.

Blackrod · Post by **Blackrod** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:43 am

1st votes don’t count unless you get your own way. Ask remoaners.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:50 am

Like the majority of our population with brexit and the general election, the majority of scotland probably actually dont care. However I suspect if the second referendum was given the quiet majority would turn out in force and vote to stay as is.

Steve1956 · Post by **Steve1956** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:51 am

I've already been told to fcuk off back were I belong.

Rubstuds · Post by **Rubstuds** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:59 am

The original referendum was agreed, but made clear it would be a '' once in a generation vote''. It was nothing to do with me but I understood that point.

bfcjg · Post by **bfcjg** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:04 am

ClaretAndJew wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:39 am
Think about all the things you think about Scotland and apply them to how the EU see England.

The EU are having to cut budgets due to us leaving, they see us as a cash cow, that is not how I see Scotland.

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:12 am

Funny how the it’s the same people who claim that the UK will be better out of the EU arrogantly claim that Scotland won’t be able to go alone.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:21 am

Rubstuds wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:59 am
The original referendum was agreed, but made clear it would be a '' once in a generation vote''. It was nothing to do with me but I understood that point.

That is true, but presumably you also understood the promise made that: they were clearly told if you vote to leave the UK you'll be voting to leave the EU, and the only way to REMAIN in the EU is to remain in the UK.
Leaving aside all political views and nationalistic / patriotic sentiment, you can't make your first argument without balancing it with the 2nd one.
I'm not a Scot myself, and don't have a strong view on this issue, but there's no doubt that remaining in the EU was a promise made to them, and therefore it was betrayed.
The more interesting issue now is whether Johnson goes ahead with the Irish Sea border, given that the Unionists are now in a minority in NI. If NI effectively remains in the EU with joint arrangements with the south, then Scotland will have an obvious grievance.
Whether they could be fast-tracked into the EU however is a different matter.

get stuck in tracy · Post by **get stuck in tracy** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:25 am

There is the Nuclear Base at Faslane and Holy Loch to sort out, a loss of Jockanese jobs there!

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:43 am

I didn''t cast a vote for the SNP in the last 2 general elections,however i did vote for them in 2015,despite voting no in 2014.

In any future indy ref i'd probably vote to stay in the union,but it's clear that England and Scotland are diverging politically,and i'd say Scotland going alone is more likely than not in the next few years.

Boris needs to play this carefully,if he's seen to be blocking any vote,that could sway many waverers into the yes camp.

Equally such a vote carries risk for Nicola Sturgeon,as if she doesn't lead the yes camp to victory her political future is uncertain.

Labour are irrevelant in Scottish politics just now,and a lot of their former voters will have switched to the centre-left party,namely the SNP who apart from the obvious

of the constitution are a typical social democrat party in most aspects.

The SNP definitely have a mandate for another referendum before the next Holyrood elections in 2021,they've won the last 4 national elections up here,and if Westminster keeps saying no then they'll sweep the board again in 2021.

Now what happens with Scotland in the event of independence is another

and issues such as the terms of EU membership,and crucially any future currency arrangements have still to be answered by the yes side,this was a defining moment in 2014,and until these issues are resolved it'll be tough for many Scottish voters to take the gamble.

Hipper · Post by **Hipper** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:43 am

Leaving the EU is going to take an enormous amount of time and effort over a number of years for our political system - politicians and civil servants.

To load on them a Scottish (or Welsh and Irish) complete independence will mean even less attention on the really important matters for a number of years.

The most practical way forward, which would deal with the complaint of being politically different, would surely be more devolvement and then at some reasonable time in the future, full independence if it is still wanted. I agree though that this doesn't deal with a wish to remain in the EU.

Bosscat · Post by **Bosscat** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:57 am

Steve1956 wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:51 am
I've already been told to fcuk off back were I belong.

you now know how a Jehovas Witness must feel everytime they knock on my Brothers door

clarethomer · Post by **clarethomer** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:58 am

Rubstuds wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:59 am
The original referendum was agreed, but made clear it would be a '' once in a generation vote''. It was nothing to do with me but I understood that point.

Life expectancy isn't that great in some parts of Scotland from what I have read so potentially that generation has now passed

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:59 am

ClaretAndJew wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:39 am
Think about all the things you think about Scotland and apply them to how the EU see England.

And then remember that the two examples are completely different

Aclaret · Post by **Aclaret** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:00 am

Would the price of Whiskey go up if they cleared off ?

Stayingup · Post by **Stayingup** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:00 am

jrgbfc wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:23 am
Fair play to em, if I were up there I wouldn't want to be ruled by the Tories either. They care even less about Scitland than they do the North of England.

Scotland gets a lot of money from England. Did yoy know? Free University education for all but English students. Free precriptions. Ever heard of the Midlothian question?

Before you post perhaps you should learn about the subject.

On Tories why do you think the working men and women of Britain have just voted in great numbers for them?

Unlike the likes of you they saw through an anti british ( cant bring himself to si g our national anthem) economically illterate terrorist sympathzing Isligton wiedo.

Scotland may get another referendum. Personally I am ambivalent. I find Sturgeon unpleasant though.

Stayingup · Post by **Stayingup** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:03 am

Sturgeon and her Party would do well to study how Catalan Independence from Spain has been supported (not) by the EU.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:04 am

Surely nobody north of the border wants this after watching Andrew Neil's interview with wee Jimmy?

Heathclaret · Post by **Heathclaret** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:07 am

Blackrod wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:41 am
If they get their way I wonder if N Ireland would follow. They wouldn’t fair so well economically at all.

Perhaps a unified Ireland would fare better.

Steve1956 · Post by **Steve1956** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:08 am

tiger76 wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:43 am
I didn''t cast a vote for the SNP in the last 2 general elections,however i did vote for them in 2015,despite voting no in 2014.

In any future indy ref i'd probably vote to stay in the union,but it's clear that England and Scotland are diverging politically,and i'd say Scotland going alone is more likely than not in the next few years.

Boris needs to play this carefully,if he's seen to be blocking any vote,that could sway many waverers into the yes camp.

Equally such a vote carries risk for Nicola Sturgeon,as if she doesn't lead the yes camp to victory her political future is uncertain.

Labour are irrevelant in Scottish politics just now,and a lot of their former voters will have switched to the centre-left party,namely the SNP who apart from the obvious of the constitution are a typical social democrat party in most aspects.

The SNP definitely have a mandate for another referendum before the next Holyrood elections in 2021,they've won the last 4 national elections up here,and if Westminster keeps saying no then they'll sweep the board again in 2021.

Now what happens with Scotland in the event of independence is another and issues such as the terms of EU membership,and crucially any future currency arrangements have still to be answered by the yes side,this was a defining moment in 2014,and until these issues are resolved it'll be tough for many Scottish voters to take the gamble.

I'm assuming your English Tiger,just out of interest have the Jocks ever told you to fcuk off back were you belong? .....or is it just me

Pstotto · Post by **Pstotto** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:09 am

1. Too much to sort out in too short a time. First of all we have to get Brexit done and then see how it works, say for five years.

N.I. is a bit different because it is not part of our Island.

2. However if we ditch N.I. out of the union and I would be glad for one, the main problem is the security of our sea defences and coastal waters because right now the UK controls the waters between N/I. and Scotland.

3. Were the EU to become hostile as a Russian or Chinese enclave for example, then it would be really problematic, Scotland particularly regarding nuclear and naval facilities.

4. A hard border between us and Scotland ideologically sounds a good idea, but the cost and policing of it would be enormous.

5. I'm surprised they even were allowed one referendum never mind two.

6. England is a massive trading partner with Scotland, I 'm not sure what container port facilities are up there, but they may regret their isolated position if there were hostilities and also jobs down south etc.

7. With regard to Scotland's voters at odds with the English, the Labour strongholds in the North still get ruled by Westminster whatever their political leanings, some political positions are rhetorical, Scotland probably quite a bit.

Heathclaret · Post by **Heathclaret** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:17 am

Steve1956 wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:08 am
I'm assuming your English Tiger,just out of interest have the Jocks ever told you to fcuk off back were you belong? .....or is it just me

Judging by the way the Scots are spoken about on here, by the English, are you surprised you’ve been told to F off?

clarethomer · Post by **clarethomer** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:19 am

ClaretAndJew wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:39 am
Think about all the things you think about Scotland and apply them to how the EU see England.

Absolutely - I think that is a great parallel to draw - however there are some subtle differences for Scotland to consider when they look to leave and try and apply back into the EU - mainly around their current reliance on the UK government and having their currency as the same as ours.

We couldn't be held over a barrel over currency or the money we got from the EU as we gave more than we received.

Im no expert in either of the above areas but I would be interested in understanding what would happen in terms of negotiations around keeping GBP as their currency and having the security of this established currency. I know they could say we will keep the pound but Im not sure as a government, when they issue bonds/gilts for borrowing that they would be rated the same as they would not have any history of repayment etc. I.E. would be seen as higher risk.

Likewise, they would have a debt to repay back to the rest of the union, like we have a bill to the EU but if we pulled defence, governement functions out of Scotland, they are likely to need to find funding etc for these things.

All feels a lot messier to me than what the EU vote was because we are not as tied into things like currency and shared government functions.

jrgbfc · Post by **jrgbfc** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:25 am

Stayingup wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:00 am
Scotland gets a lot of money from England. Did yoy know? Free University education for all but English students. Free precriptions. Ever heard of the Midlothian question?

Before you post perhaps you should learn about the subject.

On Tories why do you think the working men and women of Britain have just voted in great numbers for them?

Unlike the likes of you they saw through an anti british ( cant bring himself to si g our national anthem) economically illterate terrorist sympathzing Isligton wiedo.

Scotland may get another referendum. Personally I am ambivalent. I find Sturgeon unpleasant though.

On the subject of the Tories people voted for them out of hatred for Jeremy Corbyn rather than any great love for the party. And frankly I couldn't care less about politicians singing the National Anthem, I'd rather they were competent and capable at doing their job.

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:27 am

Each referendum costs the taxpayer millions of pounds. They can afford to keep running them as long as the English continue to help pay for them.

Steve1956 · Post by **Steve1956** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:33 am

Heathclaret wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:17 am
Judging by the way the Scots are spoken about on here, by the English, are you surprised you’ve been told to F off?

Not really,but I'm not like that,and they still tell me to fcuk off home

Foulthrow · Post by **Foulthrow** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:33 am

Blackrod wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:43 am
1st votes don’t count unless you get your own way. Ask remoaners.

Or leavers after 1975.

Foulthrow · Post by **Foulthrow** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:34 am

What’s to stop the SNP from simply declaring independence now?

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:46 am

Rileybobs wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:12 am
Funny how the it’s the same people who claim that the UK will be better out of the EU arrogantly claim that Scotland won’t be able to go alone.

It's not arrogance, it's finances.

Scotland simply couldn't afford to take on their share of the national debt for starters.

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:47 am

Foulthrow wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:34 am
What’s to stop the SNP from simply declaring independence now?

Constitutionally they can’t withdraw from the Union unilaterally. If they did not only would Westminister withdraw funding Scotland would be screwed. They hope to get the dosh from Europe... they wouldn’t touch them with a barge pole if they withdrew unilaterally. Why Scotland think they would be welcomed into Europe on anything better than an East European members who have similar economies is one to ask a Scottish nationalist... it is not a popular suggestion in countries with their own separatists, eg Spain.

There are many things the SNP are not bothering to clarify before they go flag waving.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:48 am

Stayingup wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:00 am
Scotland gets a lot of money from England. Did yoy know? Free University education for all but English students. Free precriptions. Ever heard of the Midlothian question?

Before you post perhaps you should learn about the subject.

But did you?
If you fact-check any reliable source you'll find that, whilst it's difficult to be conclusive, (due to all kinds of variables), on balance Ian Blackford's claim that the Scots "subsidise" the rest of the UK is not necessarily untrue.
It's not just as simple as looking at the Barnett formula
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck ... -of-the-uk
https://www.businessforscotland.com/whe ... wealth-go/

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:53 am

Aclaret wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:00 am
Would the price of Whiskey go up if they cleared off ?

Only if there was an import tax for WHISKY.

Nonayforever · Post by **Nonayforever** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:56 am

Freedom for Scotland.... And freedom for Yorkshire as well..... Might as well go the whole hog - freedom for Burnley.

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:57 am

Looks like I will have to don my plaid, slip my skian dhu into my hose and wield my clay more, to ensure justice is done.

Time to separate the warriors from the Norman's and their loyal serfs.

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:58 am

Nonayforever wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:56 am
Freedom for Scotland.... And freedom for Yorkshire as well..... Might as well go the whole hog - freedom for Burnley.

Burnley just sold itself to serfdom and slavery!
Caps must be worn forthwith Doffing lessons will be re-introduced.

Bosscat · Post by **Bosscat** » Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:59 am

IanMcL wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:57 am
Looks like I will have to don my plaid, slip my skian dhu into my hose and wield my clay more, to ensure justice is done.

Time to separate the warriors from the Norman's and their loyal serfs.

Whats Norman done to you Ian (and the washing powder he uses has nowt to do with Joxit)