Second Scottish Referendum

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Nonayforever
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Re: Second Scottish Referendum

Post by Nonayforever » Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:03 pm

IanMcL wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:58 am
Burnley just sold itself to serfdom and slavery!
Caps must be worn forthwith Doffing lessons will be re-introduced.
The Tories aren't perfect.
Boris is far from perfect.
But the people in Burnley just voted for democracy.
It's restored my faith in local people.
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Bosscat
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Re: Second Scottish Referendum

Post by Bosscat » Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:04 pm

William Wallace:
I am William Wallace. And I see a whole army of my countrymen, here in defiance of tyranny! You have come to fight as free men. And free man you are! What will you do without freedom? Will you fight?

Young Soldier
No, we wil run and live!

William Wallace
Yes!, Fight and you may die. Run and you will live at least awhile. And dying in your bed many years from now, would you be willing to trade all the days from this day to that for one chance, just one chance, to come back here as young men and tell our enemies that they may take our lives but they will never take our freedom!!!
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Damo
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Re: Second Scottish Referendum

Post by Damo » Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:09 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:12 am
Funny how the it’s the same people who claim that the UK will be better out of the EU arrogantly claim that Scotland won’t be able to go alone.
And it's the same people demanding referendum after referendum because the vote didnt go the way they wanted it to

Steve1956
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Re: Second Scottish Referendum

Post by Steve1956 » Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:18 pm

Aclaret wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:00 am
Would the price of Whiskey go up if they cleared off ?
Only for you English B@stards! :lol: :lol:

Heathclaret
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Re: Second Scottish Referendum

Post by Heathclaret » Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:26 pm

There are many things the SNP are not bothering to clarify before they go flag waving.
[/quote]

Similar to the current government and Brexit then.

Although I understand that Corbyn isn’t a popular figure, I still can’t get my head round why working class people think that Johnson and Co are any more trustworthy. I hope that I’m wrong, but I think the tories will continue to cut funding to everything that requires it and the promised numbers of nurses, hospitals and police will never materialise. As someone mentioned on the collection thread, food banks will become far more necessary in the future.

tiger76
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Re: Second Scottish Referendum

Post by tiger76 » Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:38 pm

Steve1956 wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:08 am
I'm assuming your English Tiger,just out of interest have the Jocks ever told you to fcuk off back were you belong? .....or is it just me :shock:
Born in Burnley,but family on both sides of the border,i did get some anti-English abuse when we first moved here in the 1990's,but by and large it's a welcoming country,the main problem in Glasgow is still the sectarian divide,sadly that'll never be solved whatever political course the country takes.

Tribesmen
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Re: Second Scottish Referendum

Post by Tribesmen » Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:43 pm

What will the Scots do is my question if they don't get the vote .

tiger76
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Re: Second Scottish Referendum

Post by tiger76 » Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:56 pm

Tribesmen wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:43 pm
What will the Scots do is my question if they don't get the vote .
Good :?: they've been clear that they won't go down the Catalan route and call an official referendum,in the short term they bide their time,and use the 2021 election to demonstrate the demand for another referendum,even people who are going to vote no in the event of a 2nd vote don't disagree about the validity of having the :?: settled,however if the answer is still the same,and it might be,then that should put independence on the back burner for at least 15-20 years minimum,we've had these arguments for 7 years now,and the vast majority just want to get back to run of the mill politics,if you think the rest of the UK is divided due to brexit,then it's 10 times worse north of the border and the independence :?:

ClaretAndJew
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Re: Second Scottish Referendum

Post by ClaretAndJew » Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:58 pm

I was shoved and told to go back home "you English ****" when I was in Glasgow a few years ago. An hour later I was handing out food to the homeless.

Live and let live.

tarkys_ears
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Re: Second Scottish Referendum

Post by tarkys_ears » Sat Dec 14, 2019 2:49 pm

Because any 2nd, 3rd or 500th referendum would be done in bad faith.

The losers never give up.

It's always more until they get what they want

Steve1956
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Re: Second Scottish Referendum

Post by Steve1956 » Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:47 pm

tiger76 wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:38 pm
Born in Burnley,but family on both sides of the border,i did get some anti-English abuse when we first moved here in the 1990's,but by and large it's a welcoming country,the main problem in Glasgow is still the sectarian divide,sadly that'll never be solved whatever political course the country takes.
I have a Glaswegian neighbour,he calls a spade a spade he's a top man ,Glaswegian's are probably the nicest Jocks I've come across in my time here.

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Re: Second Scottish Referendum

Post by IanMcL » Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:51 pm

Bosscat wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:04 pm
William Wallace:
I am William Wallace. And I see a whole army of my countrymen, here in defiance of tyranny! You have come to fight as free men. And free man you are! What will you do without freedom? Will you fight?

Young Soldier
No, we wil run and live!

William Wallace
Yes!, Fight and you may die. Run and you will live at least awhile. And dying in your bed many years from now, would you be willing to trade all the days from this day to that for one chance, just one chance, to come back here as young men and tell our enemies that they may take our lives but they will never take our freedom!!!
Alba gu brath
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Claret-On-A-T-Rex
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Re: Second Scottish Referendum

Post by Claret-On-A-T-Rex » Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:27 pm

Stayingup wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:03 am
Sturgeon and her Party would do well to study how Catalan Independence from Spain has been supported (not) by the EU.
The Catalans had an illegal referendum, imagine if the muslim community in the UK had their own referendum on whether to bring in Sharia law and used public funds to organize it. That's why they are doing twelve years.

You also have to bear in mind that the amount of Catalans who want Independence is about 40%.

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Re: Second Scottish Referendum

Post by Colburn_Claret » Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:01 pm

In 2014 referendum
55% voted to stay in the union
45% for independence

Thats quite a clear gap

In the following years General Election the SNP won 55 seats.
Fridays 49 seats is hardly life confirming.

As they were told at the time, its a once in a generation thing, not a once every 5 years. While i believe it should be up to the people of Scotland, I think they've already spoken , so Boris is right to tell her to do one.

dsr
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Re: Second Scottish Referendum

Post by dsr » Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:11 pm

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:27 pm
The Catalans had an illegal referendum, imagine if the muslim community in the UK had their own referendum on whether to bring in Sharia law and used public funds to organize it. That's why they are doing twelve years.

You also have to bear in mind that the amount of Catalans who want Independence is about 40%.
I don't think there is a publicly funded Muslim council that could do it; unlike the Catalan council that has its own funds as well as public funds. (Not sure exactly how local government funding works, but I'm sure some of it must be raised locally, like here.)

The number of Catalans voting for independence was about 40%, the number of Scots voting for independence was about 38%. Not sure what your point is unless it's to emphasis the similarities between the two?

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Re: Second Scottish Referendum

Post by dsr » Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:14 pm

The Scottish referendum, to be fair, was done with caveats by the SNP that if things change they reserve the right to call another one. If we had stayed in the EU, then it would be fair to dismiss the second referendum call out of hand. But as we are leaving, I reckon it would be only fair to firstly leave the EU, secondly negotiate the trade agreement to follow, thirdly to wait a little while to let it settle down, and then to have the second referendum. After all, once we have left the EU, that will certainly qualify as a significant change.

And then, if I might be slightly tongue in cheek, we may have set the independence referendum to about 4 years from now. This will not only give the Scots time to have their second vote, but will also give the UK parliament time to cross all those seats off the Westminster election the following year. Which would at least improve Boris's chances of re-election. ;)

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Re: Second Scottish Referendum

Post by Lowbankclaret » Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:21 pm

Hadrian built the foundations, sturgeon can finish it off.
And I love Scotland.
But if that’s what they want.

Chobulous
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Re: Second Scottish Referendum

Post by Chobulous » Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:37 pm

Unfortunately they would always vote for dependence

IanMcL
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Re: Second Scottish Referendum

Post by IanMcL » Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:44 pm

Chobulous wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:37 pm
Unfortunately they would always vote for dependence
Scotland is not dependent on anyone.

The more Johnson-Buffoon rules them the quicker the uprising.
They can still rise and be a nation again.

BennyD
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Re: Second Scottish Referendum

Post by BennyD » Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:53 am

CaptainKirk wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:21 am
Why can’t they have one?
If they lose again they will presumably shut up unless they go for best of five.
If they win - is anybody bothered?
What would it cost the rest of us if they went alone, or would we actually benefit?
It might be neck and neck so perhaps we should let all of the UK vote as it affects us all - it certainly won’t be neck and neck then I would guess.
Haven’t you learnt anything over the past 3.5 years? If you lose a referendum you mank, b!tch and moan until you get another one. The Scottish Nationalist Party won’t rest until they get what their name suggests, however many referenda it takes. SNP and the remainers are born losers but they just don’t realise it and, most probably, never will.

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Re: Second Scottish Referendum

Post by Goalposts » Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:00 pm

having a business with depots in Scotland and speaking to them quite frequently its amazing when you ask them what they think there getting are more importantly keeping.

they think they keep sterling, ive explained that is not necessarily so and what ever currency will be subject to the markets
they think they can stay in europe , spain has already said they would veto any entry of scotland into the eu, also the belgium govt is not pro because of the make up of there country. That being so they will have to trade on wto terms.

in addition they dont seem to understand that a hard border could be put in place between scotland and england.
they think we will continue to support financially as part of a divorce settlement, again ive explained they will have to pay us not the other way round.
In addition all the navy bases may move south or lease holds will need to be agreed, all ship building will move. I know for a fact a number of business will look to transfer there head offices south of the border, they had this in place should the referendum have gone wrong last time.

they will need to increase taxes to cover the £941 million income tax shortfall they currently have which is offset by £737 million of UK Government funding in place this comes from the £13.5bn a year transfer from London to Edinburgh, under an arrangement known as the Barnett formula, which divides resources between the four nations of the UK, makes this possible. that will dissapear so theres a huge hole to replace.

if the UK leaving Europe seems madness to some. should Scotland go this route they will be significantly poorer and you are likely to see scots attempting to move south of that border in the 100's of thousands

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Re: Second Scottish Referendum

Post by Chobulous » Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:35 pm

Goalposts wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:00 pm
having a business with depots in Scotland and speaking to them quite frequently its amazing when you ask them what they think there getting are more importantly keeping.

they think they keep sterling, ive explained that is not necessarily so and what ever currency will be subject to the markets
they think they can stay in europe , spain has already said they would veto any entry of scotland into the eu, also the belgium govt is not pro because of the make up of there country. That being so they will have to trade on wto terms.

in addition they dont seem to understand that a hard border could be put in place between scotland and england.
they think we will continue to support financially as part of a divorce settlement, again ive explained they will have to pay us not the other way round.
In addition all the navy bases may move south or lease holds will need to be agreed, all ship building will move. I know for a fact a number of business will look to transfer there head offices south of the border, they had this in place should the referendum have gone wrong last time.

they will need to increase taxes to cover the £941 million income tax shortfall they currently have which is offset by £737 million of UK Government funding in place this comes from the £13.5bn a year transfer from London to Edinburgh, under an arrangement known as the Barnett formula, which divides resources between the four nations of the UK, makes this possible. that will dissapear so theres a huge hole to replace.

if the UK leaving Europe seems madness to some. should Scotland go this route they will be significantly poorer and you are likely to see scots attempting to move south of that border in the 100's of thousands
Don’t be daft, haven’t you heard, Scotland isn’t dependent on anyone

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

LordBob
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Re: Second Scottish Referendum

Post by LordBob » Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:12 pm

Let them have one I don't think it will make a lot of difference, it will as has been mentioned probably shut them up. My sister lives in Scotland and she wouldn't be voting for independence she say''s "why should we when we can have the best of both worlds" Sturgeon is a one trick pony wrapped up in folklore you know Bobby Bruce Willis and all that stuff.

tiger76
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Re: Second Scottish Referendum

Post by tiger76 » Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:45 am

Looks like another referendum is on the cards,that'll be fun.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... -50843024

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Re: Second Scottish Referendum

Post by BennyD » Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:51 am

ClaretAndJew wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:39 am
Think about all the things you think about Scotland and apply them to how the EU see England.
Not really. The EU regard us as a cash cow whereas we regard the Scots as ungrateful leeches.
Last edited by BennyD on Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Second Scottish Referendum

Post by BennyD » Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:51 am

.

houseboy
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Re: Second Scottish Referendum

Post by houseboy » Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:32 am

Grumps wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:49 am
Britain, including Scotland leaves Europe on 31st January next year. Any vote for Scottish independence would be after that, and if it was a yes vote, it would leave them out of Europe, and separated from Britain, giving them complete independence, good luck with that one, let them go for it.
Big question then would be would the EU let them back in? Just imagine if they were left high and dry with Fred the Fish in charge of things. She would have nothing to rant about and they would have to start paying their own way. Bet the free hospital parking would go. Then we could set up a proper border so that they need passports to get into England. Then we could put a tariff on any booze they buy so coming south to escape the dreaded minimum alchohol price would be fruitless. Of course we would have to compensate Blackpool for the complete collapse of its tourism but we could cope with that.

The possibilities are endless. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Second Scottish Referendum

Post by Buxtonclaret » Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:05 pm

houseboy wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:32 am
Big question then would be would the EU let them back in? Just imagine if they were left high and dry with Fred the Fish in charge of things. She would have nothing to rant about and they would have to start paying their own way. Bet the free hospital parking would go. Then we could set up a proper border so that they need passports to get into England. Then we could put a tariff on any booze they buy so coming south to escape the dreaded minimum alchohol price would be fruitless. Of course we would have to compensate Blackpool for the complete collapse of its tourism but we could cope with that.

The possibilities are endless. :lol: :lol: :lol:
They'll probably claim the Tower & the North Pier as reparations for the Battle of Sterling damage.
But reckon we could hold out on that until they fix that crossbar they broke at Wembley.
8-)
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Re: Second Scottish Referendum

Post by CaptainKirk » Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:35 pm

Out of Europe and then out of the UK - just picture wee Jimmy's face when she realises the mess they find themselves in!

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Re: Second Scottish Referendum

Post by Erasmus » Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:36 pm

What would make most sense would be if the preliminary terms of separation were negotiated prior to an independence referendum so that people would have a clearer idea of exactly what they were voting for. It might have been a good idea to do the same before the Brexit referendum.

For many years now, certainly going back to Thatcher, many Scottish people have bitterly resented having a form English government that they instinctively dislike imposed upon them. Boris Johnson is not as unpleasant as Thatcher but he is still a type of English person that Scots generally dislike. He is very unpopular there.

So there will be a strong sentiment towards independence, but the question will be whether that sentiment is a strong enough basis for the gamble with their economy and standard of living that independence will entail. As with Brexiteers, Nicola Sturgeon will insist that the post-independence Scottish economy will continue to thrive, but any sensible person will know that it is a big gamble. However, all of those points applied to our referendum on leaving the EU and a small majority still saw it as a risk worth taking. So perhaps the Scots will be willing to gamble in the same way, with nationalist sentiment taking precedence over rigid pragmatism.

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Re: Second Scottish Referendum

Post by IWOODLOVETT » Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:07 pm

Donald Trump is half-Scottish and has property in Scotland - could he qualify for a vote in another referendum? Who actually qualifies for a vote, ex pats like Sean Connery or people who have had successful careers down south like Sir Alex Ferguson? People with holiday homes, students studying in Scotland? What about all those politicians and indeed prime-minister who governed the whole of the UK over the years? Including Alex Salmond by the way.

You have to ask the question that if granted her wish, could Ms. Sturgeon make up the rules of a new vote as she goes along?
What about a customs border? Would Scotland convert its own pounds into euros?

It’s all very messy, won’t happen in my life-time and SNP’s campaign will only hamper UK’s progress in the short-term.

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Re: Second Scottish Referendum

Post by houseboy » Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:43 pm

Steve1956 wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:18 pm
Only for you English B@stards! :lol: :lol:
Aah Steve, I see you are trying to fend off your impending deportation by pretending to be a Scot. They will see through you when they realise you are no good at tossing (the caber that is). They will drive you South chased by a herd of wild haggis at your heels shouting William Wallace will rise again.

Don't worry about the whiskey though, buy some Jack Daniels. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Second Scottish Referendum

Post by Pstotto » Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:12 pm

As long as they pay for the hard border.

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Re: Second Scottish Referendum

Post by Guller Bull » Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:12 pm

As someone who has lived in Scotland for 18 years I voted for Scottish Independence the first time. I know loads of other English people who live up here (ironically loads from East Lancashire) and they voted the same. It's not a rascist thing, it's about wanting the chance to stand on your own to feet. Not to be governed by Westminster but to have decision making far closer to home. Scotland by and large (and yes there are dickheads everywhere) is a very inclusive welcoming place.

I have now some doubts about voting for Indi in a second referendum as I know that Nicola would march us straight back into EU at the first chance and that is not my idea of being independent. However it is still a step in the right direction for me so I would probably still vote Yes.

To be fair most Scottish people are still split on Indi whereas I feel that most English people who live up here probably want Indi

I am English but live in Scotland and will more than likely spend the rest of my years in Scotland. This fierce anti English thing isn't really a massive thing - its more just a thing like the Aussies do.

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Re: Second Scottish Referendum

Post by Burnley1989 » Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:21 pm

Aclaret wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:00 am
Would the price of Whiskey go up if they cleared off ?
Absolutely, plus others I’d imagine :lol:

Remember Diageo which is one of the largest bottling plants in Europe is in Leven. Always enjoy my visits there to stock up in the staff gift shop :P

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Re: Second Scottish Referendum

Post by Lowbankclaret » Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:41 pm

Guller Bull wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:12 pm
As someone who has lived in Scotland for 18 years I voted for Scottish Independence the first time. I know loads of other English people who live up here (ironically loads from East Lancashire) and they voted the same. It's not a rascist thing, it's about wanting the chance to stand on your own to feet. Not to be governed by Westminster but to have decision making far closer to home. Scotland by and large (and yes there are dickheads everywhere) is a very inclusive welcoming place.

I have now some doubts about voting for Indi in a second referendum as I know that Nicola would march us straight back into EU at the first chance and that is not my idea of being independent. However it is still a step in the right direction for me so I would probably still vote Yes.

To be fair most Scottish people are still split on Indi whereas I feel that most English people who live up here probably want Indi

I am English but live in Scotland and will more than likely spend the rest of my years in Scotland. This fierce anti English thing isn't really a massive thing - its more just a thing like the Aussies do.

What the hell is Scotland going to do to resolve the following issues.

England gives each Scot £1600 each, that they will lose.

What currency are they going to use?? Scottish pounds are not legal tender on many countries.

Who’s paying for the hard border??

How do you join the EU with a deficit larger many times larger than what’s permitted to join??
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Re: Second Scottish Referendum

Post by nil_desperandum » Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:49 pm

Stayingup wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:03 am
Sturgeon and her Party would do well to study how Catalan Independence from Spain has been supported (not) by the EU.
They would, but if they analyse it properly they'll understand that there's virtually no comparison. Catalonia wasn't being dragged out of the EU against it's will. Catalonia remains a part of Spain and an integral part of the EU. Citizens aren't losing any rights.
The UK is leaving the EU against the will of 2 of its component countries. If either or both of those countries seek to make an arrangement with the EU and join the Euro, then I would imagine that the EU would look at that on its merits and not make a false comparison with Spain.
The situation will become clearer once the NI / Eire / EU situation is resolved.

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