Palace v Brighton

[Funkydrummer]

Fancy footy gets you nowhere !!!

[Bosscat]

Potter for Arsenal

Brian Potter....

Garlic Bread... I've seen the future Garlic Bread

[Tricky Trevor]

A draw would do now. We don’t drop a spot and they both drop 2 on their magic numbers.

[Funkydrummer]

A draw it is.

[FactualFrank]

Decent result.

[IanMcL]

Good result for us. Palarse within a win and BHA behind.

Hmmm...I might rephrase that!

[jrgbfc]

Brighton showing clear signs of progress, whereas we seem to happy to tread water. No real intent to try and improve or adapt our style a little.

[bodge]

Brighton have got less points than the same time last season.

I prefer points to style myself.

[LeadBelly]

They've progressed to a point behind us in the league.

[jrgbfc]

I'd rather finish 14th playing decent football than be in the same position and watch games like Saturday. It was like watching a league 1 game.

[bodge]

As people keep saying to you, the style of play is clear so why don't you give it a miss under this manager's tenure if you aren't entertained ?

I'll give you one thing you are relentlessly consistent like a bile spewing volcano.

[tiger76]

They've progressed to a point behind us in the league.

Exactly all their pretty footy isn't earning them all that many points.

[Goobs]

I'd rather finish 14th playing decent football than be in the same position and watch games like Saturday. It was like watching a league 1 game.

Thing is it isn't necessarily a choice. Would you prefer to be relegated playing nice football as that could easily happen if we change our style of play.

Personally I don't find the way we play that bad and I think people make more of it than is really true.

But like so many clubs where the vocal minority hound out a manager that gets results I'm sure at some point you'll get your wish, Dyche will leave and then we can see what happens.

[MACCA]

Why is it always the extreme of

"change our style/approach and be relegated"

Why cant SD do what Potter and Wilder have managed to do in 6 months, and get a fairly cheaply assembled side playing some neat tidy football and getting some results?

I know the framework has served us well, and the next level doesn't have to be Barcelona style and an extra 25 points, just a development and signs things have moved on a level.

I understand the recruitment argument, but again that's the managers choice to buy British players who have certain qualities and personalities off the field.

I see a couple if teams line ups and think oh my days he was a poor footballer, he was a cheap buy, yet you watch the game and they have actually been coached to pass and move, play forward penetrating passes, and are comfortable on the ball.

The next 2 windows will be pivotal to our future and will me a massive indicator or SD intentions moving forwards.
He might not want to change and evolve, which is fine, but it will only keep so many fans content for so long.

[Grimsdale]

I'd hardly say Brighton were a "fairly cheaply assembled side". Their net transfer spend over the past two seasons is over £125m, plus I'll bet their wage bill is comfortably higher than ours.

[MACCA]

I'd hardly say Brighton were a "fairly cheaply assembled side". Their net transfer spend over the past two seasons is over £125m, plus I'll bet their wage bill is comfortably higher than ours.

Purely went off last nights line up, under the new manager and away at their rivals.

Think Maupay was 20m, but other than that, and without looking up the fees, the rest all seem to have come for relatively small fees in premier league terms.

And I'd guess the majority are yet to reach their peak, and stepping up a level too, which is kind of how we try and do it.

Nothing wrong with acknowledging another team.

Burnley fans seem to love bringing up wages/fees/rich benefactors whenever a club seems to do something a little better than ourselves.
Seems it's so hard to praise another clubs work.

Think it's a case of a little jealousy sometimes

Edit - it's not the current managers fault what the last one spent, the fact he's got them playing, and is using the cheaper/unfancied players is credit to him

[Grimsdale]

Trossard and Webster were also both around the 20m mark, Bissouma was 15m, Propper 11m a couple of season ago.

I get what you're saying though, and all credit to Potter who has them playing like a different team this season but you can't ignore the fees/wages thing. The reality is Brighton can afford to pay those kind of sums and if a player doesn't make it, they just go out and buy someone else as they have done this season to replace the likes of Andone, Locadia and Jahanbakhsh. That's something we can't afford to do which is why we tend to be a lot more conservative in the transfer market.

[MACCA]

Was Trossard the number 11? The 11 and 13 Gross) stood out to me first half, really impressed me.

Didnt even notice Webster was playing, so not sure f that's a good or bad thing as a defender.

I think that's our next challenge to bring the age of the squad down, add some pace and creativity and possibly be able to switch approach and formation.

The 433 can be very effective going forwards and still solid at the back. Baring a goal Brighton were excellent first half all things considered.
Think they did similar away at Arsenal too.

I made it 5 or 6 that could need replacing in the next 2 windows, and 3 could/should be from the first 11.

[Grimsdale]

Yeah, Trossard was number 11, been impressed with him each time I've seen him play.

Agree the next summer window (we won't do anything in Jan) is going to be vital. Priority would have to be a new right back, central mid and right winger, all ideally young (or young-ish) and ready for the starting 11.

[NottsClaret]

First time I've ever watched Brighton when they've not been playing us, looked decent. No way they'll be going down.*

* Note, this isn't a criticism of us, Dyche, our football, our board, our transfer policy or wage structure. Just thought they played really good football.

[MACCA]

Yeah, Trossard was number 11, been impressed with him each time I've seen him play.

Agree the next summer window (we won't do anything in Jan) is going to be vital. Priority would have to be a new right back, central mid and right winger, all ideally young (or young-ish) and ready for the starting 11.

I dont think you'll find many if any fans that dont agree with that.

It's what was needed in the summer, so those positions must be the next 3 priorities in the next 2 windows.

If they can be starters, itll mean we only need to find cover for the players OOC or if we want to upgrade another area.

[TVC15]

Brighton have spent £200m on players in the last 3 seasons - of course a number of teams will have spent more but it’s a lot more than we have. They have only brought in around £15m in selling players during this period. They also have a £15m to £20m on loan in Mooy.

They have had a number of expensive flops too.

Pascal Gross at £3m and Ryan at £5m have both been bargain buys....nearly as good as Pope and Tarks for a total of £5m !!!

I will acknowledge they are playing some very good football this season and played Palace off the park for the first 70 minutes last night.
Maupay at £20m looks really good - would have been a great signing for us and within our price range. I’d be disappointed if we were not looking at him at the time.

[Devils_Advocate]

Some good and fair summary's on this thread. The more you spend (and to some extent gamble) then the more likely you are to unearth a star and make a massive profit but at the same time the more likely you are to waste and lose a lot of money.

Burnley and Brighton will both waste money on bad buys and both get some real bargains but we will do it at different financial levels.

If you have got the money it would be mad to be as prudent as Burnley and look for real bargain basements buys but again for a club like Burnley it would be even more mental to risk all our budget and more on one or two players

The really bad clubs are the ones who have the finances of a Brighton and spend like they are Man Utd or Arsenal as they are the ones who are walking a tightrope between success and oblivion

[Herts Clarets]

Trossard and Webster were also both around the 20m mark, Bissouma was 15m, Propper 11m a couple of season ago.

I get what you're saying though, and all credit to Potter who has them playing like a different team this season but you can't ignore the fees/wages thing. The reality is Brighton can afford to pay those kind of sums and if a player doesn't make it, they just go out and buy someone else as they have done this season to replace the likes of Andone, Locadia and Jahanbakhsh. That's something we can't afford to do which is why we tend to be a lot more conservative in the transfer market.

And we paid how much for:

Defour
Vydra
Gibson
Brady
Wells
Drinkwater

Given the amount these 5 cost in fees and wages and the return (or distinct lack of) from them, I would hardly call that a prudent approach. The financial limitation drum is banged with the regularity of a metronome, yet we have squandered tens of millions of pounds on what at the time appeared poor signings and have gone on to be exactly that.

[ChorltonCharlie]

The problem with comparisons is people are quick to compare with something they think backs up there argument, but not all the other relative comparisons.

For me Sheff United are the only club you can compare us to and say “we could do that”. Fair play to them, they are doing fantastic. Two key points here though. Firstly, at this stage they haven’t done it over any length of time, whereas Dyche has done. Secondly, they are an obvious anomaly. They aren’t just outperforming Burnley, they’re also doing it with clubs who have resources Burnley can only dream of, oh and we’re also outperforming several of those clubs. We’re 12th in the Premier League which is fantastic and it’s unbelievable that any kind of criticism is aimed at Dyche, the board and team for the season so far. For those who aren’t ignorant of other clubs and what they spend and how they’re backed, you look at the table and only Sheff Utd stand out as team above us who we could have had demands on finishing above this season. More importantly though there are 8 clubs below us and only Norwich would have started the season as a team we would be fairly confident we’d finish above. We rightly try and aim for more than that, but it has to be with a realisation that anything over 18th is a successful season for us in the Premier League modern area.

Using Brighton with their billionaire backer and high spend as a stick to beat Dyche with because they play attractive football is plain bonkers when they still sit behind us in the table.

[ChorltonCharlie]

And we paid how much for:

Defour
Vydra
Gibson
Brady
Wells
Drinkwater

Given the amount these 5 cost in fees and wages and the return (or distinct lack of) from them, I would hardly call that a prudent approach. The financial limitation drum is banged with the regularity of a metronome, yet we have squandered tens of millions of pounds on what at the time appeared poor signings and have gone on to be exactly that.

You seriously think Defour, Gibson, Brady and Drinkwater at the time appeared to be poor signings? I'd even argue that Wells at £5m for a backup striker would have arrived with very little expectation.

[MACCA]

Ssshhh no one tell him about Walters or Hart.

But I get your point.
We bang the we are poor drum, yet we have wasted quite a bit in Burnley terms on the players you listed ( I'm aware other clubs make mistakes too )

I know we can say we need the back up and a strong squad etc, but my point would be, rather than waste 15m plus on Vydra not to kick a ball, we could say improve the team with a Maupay and that instantly improves the squad.

Same can be said for various othe positions. Improve the starting 11 and you automatically improve your squad as players will shuffle down through the tiers.

I though Mooy would have been a great Loan/buy and with our location, i'm sure we could have been a front runner for his signature.
His wages/loan fee can't be anywhere near what we are paying/paid for drinkwater.

He seems exactly the player type we need, and isnt exactly old or unproven.

As mentioned previously on other threads I struggle to see the plsn/direction we are wanting to go in.

The next 2 windows are both pivotal and should show us SD and the boards intentions in terms of style, development and long term plan.

[ChorltonCharlie]

Surely "at the time" whether Vydra or Maupay is going to be a good signing is down to our scouts and Dyche? Also, Vydra is seen as a poor signing because he hasn't displaced Barnes/Wood. If we'd signed Maupay this season would he have displaced Barnes/Wood either? Probably not, so would he now be seen as a poor signing in the way people see Gibson as a poor signing. After all, he hasn't scored more goals than those two this season. This is the crux of the problem for Burnley these days. To bring in better than what we have it's a gamble unless you can afford to say pay £40m for a player. Even then there's no guarantee, look at Joelinton on Saturday.

[NottsClaret]

And we paid how much for:
Defour
Vydra
Gibson
Brady
Wells
Drinkwater

Every club needs a squad. We seem to resent paying money for anyone who's not as good as our first XI. You can't pack out the bench in the Prem with lads from the youth team. And I'll never begrudge a penny of what we paid for Defour.

Drinkwater, fair enough, money down the drain but it's hardly like United signing Sanchez, he'll be gone again next month.

[TVC15]

We have brought in significantly more in transfer sales than Brighton during the last 3 or 4 years.
If we are now counting the cost of wages for Vydra in the waste of money debate then you can add another £50m to the money Brighton have blown.

All clubs make mistakes in the market - we have made less than all clubs who have been in this division for a sustained period. For every bad signing we have made its easy to list another 2 or 3 great signings by Dyche so think it’s pretty pointless going round and round with this debate.

To stay in this league for as long as we have and still post £30m profits a year is incredible - that would be impossible to achieve without a great record in the transfer market.

What I do agree with is that we are looking at a pretty big rebuilding programme in the next couple of transfer windows. When we do go down (and we will) I want us to have a good team in the championship capable of going back up.

[MACCA]

That's the dilemma, looking at rising stars who've made an impressively step up, who can say the likes of Brooks, Wilson ( either ) , Maddison, Maupay, James, would have been given the chance to shine if they had come to us?

We rarely make signings ( whether they are capable or not ) that go into the starting 11. They usually have to bide their time and either wait for a serious long term injury or the player in their position to be sold before getting a chance.

Who's to say by then their development has been halted and their moral/form has dipped like the likes of Vydra and Gibson.

That could easily happen to the likes of the players listed above who have gone on to shine elsewhere.

Gibson could have been a full England international now and be talked about as the next 50m Chelsea/Everton/Man Utd CB.
He was already being talked about the England role and the potential was certainly there, far more than Maguire and Mings had shown prior to moves...

Interesting, frustrating and disappointing not to have seen his potential reached here

[TVC15]

Gibson had a pretty poor season at Boro when we signed him - it was a pretty long time after he had made the England squad. His problem has been that Mee and Tarks have been so good and rarely been injured or suspended. Plus Gibson has been a bit unlucky with injuries when there has been an opportunity to play. At the time most Burnley fans were saying we needed a quality 3rd centre back and were happy with the signing. I doubt very much whether the fans who have been saying it was a waste of money for the last year said this at the time. Personally I don’t understand why some fans can’t just accept this signing for what it is - just hasn’t worked out and nobody has done anything wrong or made a mistake.

You mention Brooks above - yes he looked a very good signing for £12m. He’s been out injured for a long time though - so not really sure what the difference is between him and Defour for us which is being mentioned above as a mistake.

I don’t agree with all of our signings by any means - I never really got the Vydra or Wells signings because I saw enough of them in the championship to think that they were not good enough and not worth the fees we paid for them. I never thought they would make the team or that we could develop them into better players and I would rather have paid money for up and coming talent for the future where we could work with them and improve them. That might not have worked out either but the risk / reward is far better than buying players who in my view were never good enough and had plenty of years to improve already.

Players like Maddison we are never going to get when we are up against clubs like Leicester - Maupay is different as I think we should have been in for him and I agree 100% on Mooy too who would have been perfect for us.

But at the end of the day it’s up to Dyche to pick the players - would be great to have an insight into how it works and which players he has gone for and failed that we never hear about....I would bet there are a few. We will only know a fraction of what goes on with agents, player demands, back hand deals etc

[MACCA]

Think it's fair to say Gibson should have stepped in last season before the West Ham game, as Mee had been poor. That was the time, but as vice captain and now captain he looks undroppable and no player should hold that tag.

I never mentioned Defour as his class was clearly visable, sadly his fitness and attitude towards the end wasnt upto scratch, possibly why we managed to get him in the first place.

Course we are going to make mistakes all clubs do, questions get asked when players dont seem to get a chance, are clearly either out of favour or simply not good enough.

Catching the likes of Maddison ( if we are looking and wanting ) must be done earlier in the timeline, as we dont seem to be able to compete if another top flight club are interested.
Then the cycle starts again of will they get the chance.

Does Dyche make the signings?
We are said to do lots of homework and back ground checks, but Drinkwater, Vydra and possibly Defour ( injuries ) have slipped through the net
Our strict approach in the market must hold us back whether that's player profile, nationality, age, fee, wages.

That leaves a small pool of players with not much option regards a plan b, c or d I would think.

SD has said it numerous times, that we need to move forwards with the times in terms if transfers.
I'm not sure posting big profits year on year does us any favours with other teams, players, wages and our own fans.

Suppose the next 2 windows will tell us all we need to know, as if they are as average to poor as the last 3 or 4, then it may just see us off in terms of premier league members.

[TVC15]

“Does Dyche make the signings ?”

My understanding as to how the club operates is that he is in charge of everything in relation to the playing staff - transfers, incomings, outgoings, new contracts etc.
Of course he has to work within budget constraints - and Garlick obviously has the final say on what the club can afford but I would be amazed if anyone else other than Dyche has the final say on which players are proposed to the chairman.

As for posting profits - it’s more complex than than that. We are planning and forecasting for the next few years and part of that has to include a scenario for relegation. Our wage bill has been increasing pretty significantly and other than selling Vokes we have had no incoming fees in the last financial year...and the players we have bought prior to that are paid for in instalments over a number of years so we will still be feeling the impact of this in this years accounts.
The one thing we should all be confident about is that the club is running our finances in not only a prudent way but also a way that minimises the future risk of the club if we do go down.
It’s easy to say we are being too prudent but if you have a detailed look at our accounts you will see significant year on year increases in our wage bill - and we’ve recently committed to a few more contract extensions. This means that the likes of Wood, Barnes, Pope etc could all lose their form or get badly injured and we still have a long term contingent liability in our accounts of tens of million for their contracts.

None of that means we should not be signing players as we obviously need to - but neither does it mean we are awash with money from the profits of previous years.

[bobinho]

Brighton have got less points than the same time last season.

I prefer points to style myself.

Me too. Plenty on here that don’t tho...