Villa looking at fines?

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jojomk1
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Villa looking at fines?

Post by jojomk1 » Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:14 am

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footb ... -sale.html

Need to talk to a good solicitor to find out how to get round this

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Re: Villa looking at fines?

Post by ClaretTony » Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:19 am

It was clear they spent significantly to get into the Premier League and that they were chucking money at it last summer having won promotion. Another club that's benefited from the Football League's inept rules with the ground sale.

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Re: Villa looking at fines?

Post by UpTheClaretsFCBK » Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:25 am

Fines are nothing to these clubs. Points deductions are the only thing that will stop it.

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Re: Villa looking at fines?

Post by houseboy » Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:20 pm

UpTheClaretsFCBK wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:25 am
Fines are nothing to these clubs. Points deductions are the only thing that will stop it.
No no a thousand times no. Stop the points deductions now. The only way to stop this is to cap wages and cap transfer fees. That way clubs would have to stay within certain limits and the madness that is PL spending would start to get into some kind of state of reality. Inflation is not a word that occurs to many clubs, it's about time they got a grasp of the realities of the world instead of existing in a bubble.

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Re: Villa looking at fines?

Post by UpTheClaretsFCBK » Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:17 pm

houseboy wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:20 pm
No no a thousand times no. Stop the points deductions now. The only way to stop this is to cap wages and cap transfer fees. That way clubs would have to stay within certain limits and the madness that is PL spending would start to get into some kind of state of reality. Inflation is not a word that occurs to many clubs, it's about time they got a grasp of the realities of the world instead of existing in a bubble.
That's a stupid idea. Then all the best talent moves abroad to leagues where there is no spending or wage cap.
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Re: Villa looking at fines?

Post by Chester Perry » Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:29 pm

As I said on the Magic Money Tree thread about this yesterday - the owners will cover any loss with a share issue - provisions were made in the last accounts and since they took over 2 years ago they have converted over £215m of debt into shares and sold the ground to themselves for £57m, they also had to pay a substantial premium on promotion to the former owner (they are both billionaires which helps in these matters) - difficult for many to appreciate that Villa were less than an hour from going to the wall when they took over.

Reducing the debt at the club is on the face of it a great thing, but the inflationary nature of such spending is far from being good for the game as a whole and I really like the fact we do not have owners who are capable of such things or who want to do such things - which explains some of my deep misgivings about Brendan Flood

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Re: Villa looking at fines?

Post by dsr » Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:36 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:29 pm
As I said on the Magic Money Tree thread about this yesterday - the owners will cover any loss with a share issue - provisions were made in the last accounts and since they took over 2 years ago they have converted over £215m of debt into shares and sold the ground to themselves for £57m, they also had to pay a substantial premium on promotion to the former owner (they are both billionaires which helps in these matters) - difficult for many to appreciate that Villa were less than an hour from going to the wall when they took over.

Reducing the debt at the club is on the face of it a great thing, but the inflationary nature of such spending is far from being good for the game as a whole and I really like the fact we do not have owners who are capable of such things or who want to do such things - which explains some of my deep misgivings about Brendan Flood
Share issues aren't income and won't affect the profit and loss account; they can increase the FFP allowable losses to some extent by share issues, but not infinitely.

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Re: Villa looking at fines?

Post by Chester Perry » Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:42 pm

dsr wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:36 pm
Share issues aren't income and won't affect the profit and loss account; they can increase the FFP allowable losses to some extent by share issues, but not infinitely.
That is how they and many others in the EFL have avoided breaching FFP/P&S - not sure on the Premier League rules, but as I said yesterday if the rules allow for a cash injection via that route they will use it, they are not afraid at chucking cash at it if they can as is plain to see

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Re: Villa looking at fines?

Post by Royboyclaret » Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:04 pm

The Premier League rules for Profit & Sustainability are quite straightforward. The calculation is based over three seasons, two previous and an estimate for the current season. A Loss of £105m is allowed over those three seasons so long as the owners inject sufficient equity to cover the Loss. If not then that figure is reduced to £15m over the same period.

The relevant date is March 1st which for the likes of Burnley make a measurement extremely difficult. We won't publish our results to Jun'19 until at least four weeks after the cut off date and then the estimate for the current season has to be added.

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Re: Villa looking at fines?

Post by houseboy » Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:14 pm

UpTheClaretsFCBK wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:17 pm
That's a stupid idea. Then all the best talent moves abroad to leagues where there is no spending or wage cap.
Only people with no argument use the word stupid because of lack of ability to conduct an argument without insult. As far as losing all the talent abroad I would say two things:
A. The idea would be to try to make it some kind of world wide (or at least Europe wide)rule.
B. If not who really gives a sh!t if we lose all the foreign mercanaries dominating the PL? It would make for a far more level playing field.
So there you go - not a stupid idea at all. Anything you wish to add do try to put together some kind of logical argument. :D :D :D

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Re: Villa looking at fines?

Post by CombatClaret » Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:24 pm

I doubt a wage cap would work with today's accounting practices.
They would max out the wage then arrange for sponsorship or commercial deals to make up the rest. Just how City get around FFP, instead of the owners paying they simply tell the state run airline how much to sponsor the team so then it comes from revenue.
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Re: Villa looking at fines?

Post by houseboy » Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:30 pm

CombatClaret wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:24 pm
I doubt a wage cap would work with today's accounting practices.
They would max out the wage then arrange for sponsorship or commercial deals to make up the rest. Just how City get around FFP, instead of the owners paying they simply tell the state run airline how much to sponsor the team so then it comes from revenue.
You are probably right mate. It's just an idea that would work but doesn't allow for the complete and utter dishonesty at the top level of football these days. I genuinely wouldn't miss all the overpaid prima donnas if they f*cked off abroad though.

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Re: Villa looking at fines?

Post by Vegas Claret » Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:53 pm

houseboy wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:14 pm
Only people with no argument use the word stupid because of lack of ability to conduct an argument without insult. As far as losing all the talent abroad I would say two things:
A. The idea would be to try to make it some kind of world wide (or at least Europe wide)rule.
B. If not who really gives a sh!t if we lose all the foreign mercanaries dominating the PL? It would make for a far more level playing field.
So there you go - not a stupid idea at all. Anything you wish to add do try to put together some kind of logical argument. :D :D :D
did you see what has happened to the Italian League for the last 15 years ? Other than Juve it's been awash with bang average players. Absolutely no question the top players go where the money is, not saying it' a good or bad thing just it will happen 100% to the PL if there is a wage cap

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Re: Villa looking at fines?

Post by dsr » Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:18 pm

Royboyclaret wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:04 pm
The Premier League rules for Profit & Sustainability are quite straightforward. The calculation is based over three seasons, two previous and an estimate for the current season. A Loss of £105m is allowed over those three seasons so long as the owners inject sufficient equity to cover the Loss. If not then that figure is reduced to £15m over the same period.

The relevant date is March 1st which for the likes of Burnley make a measurement extremely difficult. We won't publish our results to Jun'19 until at least four weeks after the cut off date and then the estimate for the current season has to be added.
Burnley's accounts are finalised and sent to the Premier League much earlier than March - I think the deadline is December. They don't make them public until March, but they are ready before then.

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Re: Villa looking at fines?

Post by Royboyclaret » Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:10 pm

dsr wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:18 pm
Burnley's accounts are finalised and sent to the Premier League much earlier than March - I think the deadline is December. They don't make them public until March, but they are ready before then.
Aware that Burnley's accounts are completed and audited before the calendar year end but whether they are submitted to the Premier League is another matter. No question of us not complying with P&S requirements though, in fact we ought to post an Operating Profit again.

Be interesting to see the results to Jun'19, the headline figures will be significantly different to the previous year. We had a record Total Income to Jun'18 of £139m but that figure will be reduced by some £12.5m as a result of a reduced merit payment. That should be offset though by a similar reduction in our Wage bill in that the total for the previous year of £81.6m was heavily bonus incentivised for finishing 7th. Also a crucial element of the Net Profit before tax of £45.1m last year was the profit on sale of Keane and Gray at £30.7m.

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Re: Villa looking at fines?

Post by claret2018 » Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:11 pm

houseboy wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:14 pm

A. The idea would be to try to make it some kind of world wide (or at least Europe wide)rule.
A union for Europe, if you will?

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Re: Villa looking at fines?

Post by dsr » Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:19 pm

Royboyclaret wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:10 pm
Aware that Burnley's accounts are completed and audited before the calendar year end but whether they are submitted to the Premier League is another matter. No question of us not complying with P&S requirements though, in fact we ought to post an Operating Profit again.

Be interesting to see the results to Jun'19, the headline figures will be significantly different to the previous year. We had a record Total Income to Jun'18 of £139m but that figure will be reduced by some £12.5m as a result of a reduced merit payment. That should be offset though by a similar reduction in our Wage bill in that the total for the previous year of £81.6m was heavily bonus incentivised for finishing 7th. Also a crucial element of the Net Profit before tax of £45.1m last year was the profit on sale of Keane and Gray at £30.7m.
Premier League rules are that the accounts have to be submitted by (I think) end of the calendar year.

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Re: Villa looking at fines?

Post by Hipper » Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:38 pm

houseboy wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:14 pm
Only people with no argument use the word stupid because of lack of ability to conduct an argument without insult.
Calling an idea stupid is not an insult to the individual that puts it forward. An idea can certainly be stupid and UpTheClaretsFCBK puts forward his reasoning for why he thinks yours is.

Nothing wrong with that.

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Re: Villa looking at fines?

Post by houseboy » Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:44 pm

Vegas Claret wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:53 pm
did you see what has happened to the Italian League for the last 15 years ? Other than Juve it's been awash with bang average players. Absolutely no question the top players go where the money is, not saying it' a good or bad thing just it will happen 100% to the PL if there is a wage cap
I agree totally, I just don't care if they do go.

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Re: Villa looking at fines?

Post by houseboy » Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:44 pm

claret2018 wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:11 pm
A union for Europe, if you will?
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I hope not.

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Re: Villa looking at fines?

Post by Vegas Claret » Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:05 pm

houseboy wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:44 pm
I agree totally, I just don't care if they do go.
would be better for us !

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Re: Villa looking at fines?

Post by Royboyclaret » Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:16 pm

dsr wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:19 pm
Premier League rules are that the accounts have to be submitted by (I think) end of the calendar year.
My understanding is that the critical date is Feb29th next year, as their accounts do not have to be made public at Companies House until that date at the latest.

Villa posted a Loss of £36m in '17/'18 so, by my calculation, they have only a remaining £25m over last season plus an estimate for this season. Likely they will be made an example of by the PL and suffer the same fate as their neighbours Birmingham did last season in the EFL by having 9 points docked.

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Re: Villa looking at fines?

Post by Clarets4me » Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:40 pm

Over the last 4 years, our accounts have been made public between 3rd and 11th April in the year following the accounting year end of 30th June ... I have seen nothing that makes me think this year will be any different ..

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Re: Villa looking at fines?

Post by Royboyclaret » Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:50 pm

Clarets4me wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:40 pm
Over the last 4 years, our accounts have been made public between 3rd and 11th April in the year following the accounting year end of 30th June ... I have seen nothing that makes me think this year will be any different ..
Absolutely, Clarets4me, which was the point I was making higher up the thread that for the likes of Burnley (who now deliberately post results as late as possible) it's difficult to assess particularly with an estimate for the current season also to be taken into account. That said, our accounts to Jun'19 have to be submitted to Companies House no later than Feb29th next year.

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Re: Villa looking at fines?

Post by No Ney Never » Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:54 pm

I'd like to see a rule that doesn't allow football clubs to be sold with debt, i.e £85m for the club + £115m to clear the debt = £200m.
Any debt accumulated by the current owner(s) either owed to them directly or through a company they've purposely set up, is theirs and not that of the football club.

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Re: Villa looking at fines?

Post by dsr » Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:38 pm

Royboyclaret wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:50 pm
Absolutely, Clarets4me, which was the point I was making higher up the thread that for the likes of Burnley (who now deliberately post results as late as possible) it's difficult to assess particularly with an estimate for the current season also to be taken into account. That said, our accounts to Jun'19 have to be submitted to Companies House no later than Feb29th next year.
31st March. It's 9 months for private companies. And then it may take a day or two before Companies House puts it on the website.

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Re: Villa looking at fines?

Post by UpTheClaretsFCBK » Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:55 pm

houseboy wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:14 pm
Only people with no argument use the word stupid because of lack of ability to conduct an argument without insult. As far as losing all the talent abroad I would say two things:
A. The idea would be to try to make it some kind of world wide (or at least Europe wide)rule.
B. If not who really gives a sh!t if we lose all the foreign mercanaries dominating the PL? It would make for a far more level playing field.
So there you go - not a stupid idea at all. Anything you wish to add do try to put together some kind of logical argument. :D :D :D
A. Logistically impossible to get every league in the world to agree to a wage and spending cap. (Your original point mentioned the Premier League only, so my rebuttal was completely valid)
B. Most people give a **** if we lose the World's best talent. The Premier League would not be the most watched league in the world without it and it would be catastrophic financially for teams like us who rely on the TV money to survive as a club.

It really is a terrible idea on all fronts.

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Re: Villa looking at fines?

Post by ecc » Fri Dec 20, 2019 12:10 am

Hi Royboy,

You know I respect your analysis of matters financial.

I have two very good friends who, for their sins, support Birmingham. They got hammered for breaking the FFP rules; For a fee of circa £3m. Okay, they broke the rules and had to be punished. But they see what Villa have done - everybody can see what they've done - and they have just given up with it all.

Hence, my question concerning your comment above:

"Likely they [Villa] will be made an example of by the PL and suffer the same fate as their neighbours Birmingham did last season in the EFL by having 9 points docked."

Do you really think the PL will dock them points? I hope they do not only out of solidarity for my friends but also because the cheating - in general - is making me sick. I would also like to see them have nine points docked this season as it would be to our benefit. :)

Many thanks.

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Re: Villa looking at fines?

Post by Chester Perry » Fri Dec 20, 2019 12:37 am

After the Premier League's refusal to get involved with the QPR, Leicester and Bournemouth FFP breaches - the EFL sought to change rules in line with the Premier League so that the PL would act with them as one - Villa will be a test of this, though if the breach occurs in a Premier League season rather than an EFL one (as in the aforementioned cases) the PL will be much more comfortable in enforcing it's regulations

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Re: Villa looking at fines?

Post by houseboy » Fri Dec 20, 2019 9:33 am

UpTheClaretsFCBK wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:55 pm
A. Logistically impossible to get every league in the world to agree to a wage and spending cap. (Your original point mentioned the Premier League only, so my rebuttal was completely valid)
B. Most people give a **** if we lose the World's best talent. The Premier League would not be the most watched league in the world without it and it would be catastrophic financially for teams like us who rely on the TV money to survive as a club.

It really is a terrible idea on all fronts.
It is not a terrible idea. Do you really think that we need all this money in football? Do you really think Burnley FC need the money we get? If everyone else wasn't pushing up the cost of everything then we wouldn't need so much. As far as the silly idea of the the 'most watched league in the world' are you so bothered as to let that mean anything to you. I don't give a damn who watches the PL and I don't give a toss if we lose all the diving, cheating, overpaid prima donnas that currently populate our league. I agree that it would be virtually impossible to achieve the caps world wide but there would be no harm in trying. It would only be 'catastrophic' for teams who have paid stupid amoujnts of money in transfers and wages. We would be fine. You are obviously one of our 'fans' who care more about the money in the bank than what happens on the pitch, you don't seem to have any idea about relativity.
One of the best things that could happen to football in this country is that Sky pull the plug and we end this total obsession with making money. Football is a sport, a pastime, it's not life or death, and yet it has more money sloshing around than things that are far more important. Do you really, honestly, believe any footballer on earth is worth 200k per week? Some people in this country don't earn that in 10 years let alone per week. The money in football is sickening and if it doesn't learn to regulate itself soon I do believe outside forces will start to do so.

By the way your rebuttal was NOT valid because my argument was originally about you using insulting language just because my views don't tally with yours - it shows a complete lack of ability to 'rebutt' without using insults.

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Re: Villa looking at fines?

Post by IanMcL » Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:00 am

Vegas Claret wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:53 pm
did you see what has happened to the Italian League for the last 15 years ? Other than Juve it's been awash with bang average players. Absolutely no question the top players go where the money is, not saying it' a good or bad thing just it will happen 100% to the PL if there is a wage cap
Are there many Italian players playing overseas? Maybe football is just on the decline there.

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Re: Villa looking at fines?

Post by Vegas Claret » Fri Dec 20, 2019 2:44 pm

IanMcL wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:00 am
Are there many Italian players playing overseas? Maybe football is just on the decline there.
nope, some of the Italian clubs are on their way back because they are now receiving investment

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