We need to go for it we need to attack a team for a change especially at home

Hendrick needs dropping it's not his fault but he's never a winger, he doesn't overlap Bardsley he almost never puts the ball into the box and he doesn't drop back to help the defence, he hides in the middle of the park on the half way line walking around and yes he's not the only one, and I'd also drop cork just about above Westwood only because in my 41212 he would defend better than cork.

We should play 442 that looks like 41212

My team against Villa would be

------------------Pope----------------------
Bardsley Tarkowski Mee Taylor
--------------Westwood------------------
Gudmundsson---------------McNeil
--------------Rodriguez-------------------
-------Barnes---------Wood-------------

We have to win. No excuses.

The answer to our inadequate midfield is to remove Cork and leave Westwood entirely on his own? I’d go with a standard 4-4-2 in this one, we’re flat track bully’s and it’ll beat Villa in my opinion.

Pope
Bardsley Tarkowski Mee Taylor
Gudmundsson Hendrick Westwood McNeil
Wood Barnes

I would be advocating a change of system against the top 8 though, but with the personnel SD has currently, it doesn’t give an awful lot of scope for mixing it up too much.

Thought Jack Cork played well yesterday...but if its not him its Lennon..Hendrick..Brady.......etc etc!

tim_noone wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:56 pm

Thought Jack Cork played well yesterday...but if its not him its Lennon..Hendrick..Brady.......etc etc!

Cork is not good enough for this level.

Westwood wouldn't be on his own J rod is capable of covering the pitch and dropping back into center midfield and going up with Barnes and Wood
Westwood would have Tarks and Mee behind him also

Pope
Bardsley Mee Tarks Taylor
Hendrick Cork Westwood
---------McNeil-----------------do whatever you like son, by far an a way our best player
Barnes Wood

dougcollins wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:45 pm

We have to win. No excuses.

we will win

Surely,now is the time to give Drinkwater his chance,just ask Leicester City,Hes got to be FIT by now,Give him a chance to shine,just at the right time!

Does anyone think that if any of the other 19 PL clubs if they had played Westwood & Cork in midfield in just about every game this season , and if they had played at the same level as they have for BFC, and if that club had signed Drinkwater 4 months ago, that they would not have given him a run of games by now

warksclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 29, 2019 7:20 pm

Does anyone think that if any of the other 19 PL clubs if they had played Westwood & Cork in midfield in just about every game this season , and if they had played at the same level as they have for BFC, and if that club had signed Drinkwater 4 months ago, that they would not have given him a run of games by now

For all the faults that this team has there is no doubting that against the weaker sides in the league we are very adept at winning games comfortably and probably one of the best records too.

7 wins without a goal conceded.

Danieljwaterhouse wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:58 pm

Cork is not good enough for this level.

It's strange how 4 Southampton and about 6 Swansea managers played him in their Premier League teams.

But you know best.

k90bfc wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 29, 2019 7:09 pm

Surely,now is the time to give Drinkwater his chance,just ask Leicester City,Hes got to be FIT by now,Give him a chance to shine,just at the right time!

He will be shining at Watford instead.

We don't have to win but the same team as last night fired up, full of belief and with perhaps a little more aggression - especially where that ponce Grealish is concerned - will take the three points fairly comfortably.

Bin Ont Turf wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 29, 2019 7:28 pm

It's strange how 4 Southampton and about 6 Swansea managers played him in their Premier League teams.

But you know best.

Players are human beings who get older you know

evensteadiereddie wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 29, 2019 7:32 pm

We don't have to win but the same team as last night fired up, full of belief and with perhaps a little more aggression - especially where that ponce Grealish is concerned - will take the three points fairly comfortably.

Given the 3 games after Villa are Chelsea(a)Leicester(H)Man Utd(a),i'd say we do have to win against Villa,but we will,Barnes & Wood will bully their defence,as they have most of the lower sides this season.

BOYSIE31 wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 29, 2019 7:33 pm

Players are human beings who get older you know

Aye, he's on the cusp of needing a mobility scooter due to his grand old age of 30.

------------Pope----------------

----Tarks Mee Gibson----

JBG Drinkwater Westwood McNeil Taylor

-----Wood Rodriguez------

Time for Jay to start instead of Barnes. With Barnes on the pitch we're forced to knock it long constantly because he's so static/immobile. He doesn't even win us many free kicks anymore as the refs have got wise to him.

Bin Ont Turf wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 29, 2019 7:28 pm

It's strange how 4 Southampton and about 6 Swansea managers played him in their Premier League teams.

But you know best.

Not only that, but when we signed him he was Swansea’s captain and I for one was amazed they let him go and believe it was a big factor in their relegation. I’m always bemused at the vitriol he receives - Dyche clearly believes in him and having met him several times off the pitch, he’s a Tom Heaton character in so far as he’s probably the most grounded and nicest footballers you’d ever wish to meet.

Pope
Bardsley Tarkowski Mee Taylor
Gudmundsson Westwood McNeil Brady
Wood jay

Wouldn't dream of dropping Cork - hes our most underappreciated player presently. He screens the centre halves effectively, wins second balls and fills in gaps and for all those reasons hes essential to the way we play.

What I would like to see against Villa is for is to get a bit more rotation into our play through the units - and to do that, I'd like to see Rodriguez in for Barnes. Not only that, I'd like to see Jay used to Jay's strengths, not as a surrogate for Barnes- we saw yesterday that Jay had the ability to drop deep, right into midfield and knit possession moves together, as well as going the target man stuff when required. Hes also comfortable out wide so there's the possibility of those rotations resulting in Jay and McNeil swapping positions, allowing McNeil a little more freedom.

Its not a huge change and it doesn't involve us changing the fundamentals of the way we play (that would be a disaster), but it does potentially offer us a way of adding a bit more variety to our attack.

Barnes is clearly struggling with a niggle and it's impacting his effectiveness. He needs a break but if we're giving him one we need to play to the strengths of the man coming in.

From watching some of Villa's game on Saturday, three things stood out.
A lot of their play goes through Grealish.
They give the ball away cheaply, more than any other team I've seen this season.
They got roughed up by Deeney very easily.
One thing Dyche does immaculately is prepare for the next game and with McGinn out injured too we should be taking all three points and nothing less.

Agree with Claretspice-we cannot leave Jay out this next game. Would even consider him right midfild and keep both Wood and Barnes together against a side with a weak and new defence

Pope
Bardsley Tarkowski Mee Taylor
Westwood Cork
Rodriguez McNeil Barnes
Wood

Bin Ont Turf wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 29, 2019 7:28 pm

It's strange how 4 Southampton and about 6 Swansea managers played him in their Premier League teams.

But you know best.

I know based on his current levels. The league has moved on and he is not good enough.

Too lightweight
Poor technical ability
Doesn’t threaten the lines enough

claretspice wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 29, 2019 8:33 pm

Wouldn't dream of dropping Cork - hes our most underappreciated player presently. He screens the centre halves effectively, wins second balls and fills in gaps and for all those reasons hes essential to the way we play.

What I would like to see against Villa is for is to get a bit more rotation into our play through the units - and to do that, I'd like to see Rodriguez in for Barnes. Not only that, I'd like to see Jay used to Jay's strengths, not as a surrogate for Barnes- we saw yesterday that Jay had the ability to drop deep, right into midfield and knit possession moves together, as well as going the target man stuff when required. Hes also comfortable out wide so there's the possibility of those rotations resulting in Jay and McNeil swapping positions, allowing McNeil a little more freedom.

Its not a huge change and it doesn't involve us changing the fundamentals of the way we play (that would be a disaster), but it does potentially offer us a way of adding a bit more variety to our attack.

Barnes is clearly struggling with a niggle and it's impacting his effectiveness. He needs a break but if we're giving him one we need to play to the strengths of the man coming in.

I have to disagree with your thoughts on Cork. He does occasionally break play up, but once we have the ball he slows everything down, which results in us playing it out to the full backs who either hoof it into a channel or play it inside to the CB’s who try a diagonal to Wood.

The only way to accommodate Cork is to play a three (3) in there.

Whatever X1 we put out one of our CMs has to be told to back up the strikers. They are left so isolated and aren’t good enough when alone.
McNeil is desperate for a break,I wouldn’t give him it on Wednesday but as soon as possible. The FA Cup game and a PL match could see him refreshed.

If SD is not going to play Drinkwater or even bring him on why is he on the bench?

Stayingup wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:00 pm

If SD is not going to play Drinkwater or even bring him on why is he on the bench?

Hmm sometimes I think agents insist on player profile resulting in appearance money for various parties.

Lord_Bob wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 29, 2019 7:39 pm

------------Pope----------------

----Tarks Mee Gibson----

JBG Drinkwater Westwood McNeil Taylor

-----Wood Rodriguez------

One can only dream!

Stick to FM my man, a 442 wide diamond is absolute suicide in this league, we'd get hammered.

Glad Dyche is Boss and not some of you lot. Never read so much crap in one thread.

Danieljwaterhouse wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 29, 2019 9:25 pm

I know based on his current levels. The league has moved on and he is not good enough.

Too lightweight
Poor technical ability
Doesn’t threaten the lines enough

Too lightweight is a nonsense argument. But if there is anyone who is 'too lightweight' it's McNeil.

We are awash with players who have sub standard technical ability at this level. That's why they are playing for us. But please tell me that you've been watching Cork carefully.

None of our midfielders threaten the lines enough. It's what you get in a defensive 4-4-2. But Cork is one who will drive with the ball if he can.

I'm not saying that Cork is a world beater or brilliant, but you said he wasn't 'good enough' for this level.

Well I'm telling you that he is ( just )

claretspice wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 29, 2019 8:33 pm

Wouldn't dream of dropping Cork - hes our most underappreciated player presently. He screens the centre halves effectively, wins second balls and fills in gaps and for all those reasons hes essential to the way we play.

What I would like to see against Villa is for is to get a bit more rotation into our play through the units - and to do that, I'd like to see Rodriguez in for Barnes. Not only that, I'd like to see Jay used to Jay's strengths, not as a surrogate for Barnes- we saw yesterday that Jay had the ability to drop deep, right into midfield and knit possession moves together, as well as going the target man stuff when required. Hes also comfortable out wide so there's the possibility of those rotations resulting in Jay and McNeil swapping positions, allowing McNeil a little more freedom.

Its not a huge change and it doesn't involve us changing the fundamentals of the way we play (that would be a disaster), but it does potentially offer us a way of adding a bit more variety to our attack.

Barnes is clearly struggling with a niggle and it's impacting his effectiveness. He needs a break but if we're giving him one we need to play to the strengths of the man coming in.

Wouldn’t be surprised if Barnes needs an operation on his injury and we are trying to get as much out of him as possible at the minute.

Bin Ont Turf wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 29, 2019 11:49 pm

Too lightweight is a nonsense argument. But if there is anyone who is 'too lightweight' it's McNeil.

We are awash with players who have sub standard technical ability at this level. That's why they are playing for us. But please tell me that you've been watching Cork carefully.

None of our midfielders threaten the lines enough. It's what you get in a defensive 4-4-2. But Cork is one who will drive with the ball if he can.

I'm not saying that Cork is a world beater or brilliant, but you said he wasn't 'good enough' for this level.

Well I'm telling you that he is ( just )

McNeil and Cork play different roles. Cork is our CDM, he does screen the back four when there’s a second ball, but when he’s in a 50/50 60/40 40/60 situation he gets bumped off the ball. This isn’t just other CM monsters it’s by Rashford, Martial, Almerion, etc.

Players drop deep off Tarks to collect the ball and Cork cannot compete.

When I watch Cork (because we all see different things) he takes the ball flat footed, this gets him closed down and then is forced to feed it to a FB who then either hoof a channel or play it back inside to Tarks/Mee who play the diagonal to Wood. I don’t see Cork carrying through and creating space.

Cork was good enough, but the midfield game has changed, we need to adapt to be effective. Play Cork in a three and we might see something different.

I feel we need Drinkwater Westwood and McNeil in there to compete and also encourage Tarks to carry into there when we have the ball to create overloads.

Barnes needs to have a few games as impact sub and play Wood up top flanked by JRod and JBG

Grealish is going to dive at any touch so lets set Bardsley on him early in the game.Tackle City style on the half way line
Tell Dwight to stay 1 m from the touch line and take on his markers at every opportunity getting crosses for Wood to convert
This drifting into cm just confuses those who are supposed to be there
Get a taxi for Drinkwater to wish him well but somewhere else.

Danieljwaterhouse wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 29, 2019 9:28 pm

I have to disagree with your thoughts on Cork. He does occasionally break play up, but once we have the ball he slows everything down, which results in us playing it out to the full backs who either hoof it into a channel or play it inside to the CB’s who try a diagonal to Wood.

The only way to accommodate Cork is to play a three (3) in there.

How come you are aware of this but the manager and the coaching staff, who see him every day in training, are not?

You obviously dont rate Jack Cork with your comments about him not being good enough for the Premier League. OK well you are entitled to your opinion but dont pretend to have more tactical nous than our management team because if you had then you would be doing that job yourself at a Premier League club.

Theres no such thing as a must win at this stage, but with the run of games coming up, it might be a must not lose
Villa are on a rotten run, and conceding for fun.
If this isnt a game where we go at them and have a go for the win I dont know what is.

I dont think I want to be there at the end if we are heading for another whimpering defeat, the decline has started with some fans, and I think it wont be long off turning a bit toxic.

Pope
Bardsley, Tarks, Mee, Taylor
JBG, Westwood, Cork, McNeil
Rodriguez
Wood

Looks a decent 11 to me.

Targetman wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:11 am

How come you are aware of this but the manager and the coaching staff, who see him every day in training, are not?

You obviously dont rate Jack Cork with your comments about him not being good enough for the Premier League. OK well you are entitled to your opinion but dont pretend to have more tactical nous than our management team because if you had then you would be doing that job yourself at a Premier League club.

Am I entitled to have an opinion about how we set up the team or should we defer to Dyche on all matters and this stifle debate in a message board designed to allow debate?

I feel I’m more than qualified to offer an opinion, it’s just not one you agree with.

Woodleyclaret wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:20 am

Grealish is going to dive at any touch so lets set Bardsley on him early in the game.Tackle City style on the half way line
Tell Dwight to stay 1 m from the touch line and take on his markers at every opportunity getting crosses for Wood to convert
This drifting into cm just confuses those who are supposed to be there
Get a taxi for Drinkwater to wish him well but somewhere else.

I’d love to see Bardsley employed (as a short term fix/experiment) as a CDM. He has the vision and technical ability to play in that role.

I don’t agree with Dwight, he’s being isolated as opposition rightly identify him as our main (only) threat so are doubling up on him and nullifying him. You can see when he drifts inside that he’s more effective as he can find space and challenge the lines with a pass or dribble.

Drinkwater is exactly what we’re missing, he would inject pace into attacks, and can play short and long. J Rod would thrive with this kind of intelligence in the midfield.

It would be a huge deviation from the ‘plan’ and I’m not sure Dyche has the flexibility from the fans or the board to try it.

Dyche is becoming frustrated, you can hear that in his comments, his jibes at the board, and we’re seeing this in the fan base now. Garlick and Co. have the right to ride this gravy train as long as they’d like but I think we’re starting to see the end of the line.

Best case: Dyche stays and we invest to change the style and cohort of the players, this may mean us going down but hopefully not.

Middle ground: Dyche goes/stays we try to bring in players that can maintain the current playing levels.

Worst case: Dyche goes and we don’t invest and we become Stoke without the wealthy owners.

Make no mistake, we’re treading water in a league that is always moving. We will go down with an aging squad if we don’t make a change somewhere.

Villa will come to the Turf with confidence of halting their slide. They will also have seen that we’ve only had one good half of football in the last two games. They’ll be expecting us to launch it long for most of the game.

I’m expecting much of the same, both managers will be happy for a point.

I'm expecting another horrible game but we'll keep them out and nick one from a set piece, 1-0 Burnley. Might have a few quid on it.

Danieljwaterhouse wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:27 am

Drinkwater is exactly what we’re missing, he would inject pace into attacks, and can play short and long. J Rod would thrive with this kind of intelligence in the midfield.

I would love to know what you have seen in Drinkwater in the last two and a half seasons (not when he was with Leicester) that Sarri and Conte (now managing Juve and Inter), plus Lampard and Dyche haven't. Plus any evidence you have that he can actually last 90 minutes of EPL football.

Cheers. Thanks in advance.

Woodleyclaret wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:20 am

Tackle City style on the half way line

Big part of why our form turned around last season. Heaton came in for the West Ham game and we pushed our defensive line much higher, pressured the ball and overwhelmed the opposition.

Villa don't have players with bags of pace, are lacking confidence, haven't been scoring and so I can't think of a better game to adopt this approach.

I just hope Dyche isn't of the same view as some that a point will do and we sit back.

I cannot agree that Cork is the most underrated player at the moment. Nonsense imo. Gets knocked of the ball easily, lightweight in the tackle and does not get the ball forward enough. Doesnt impose himself on the game and looks to be lacking confidence. He might once have been good but he’s a weak link at the moment along with Hendrick.

ClaretLoup wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:00 am

I would love to know what you have seen in Drinkwater in the last two and a half seasons (not when he was with Leicester) that Sarri and Conte (now managing Juve and Inter), plus Lampard and Dyche haven't. Plus any evidence you have that he can actually last 90 minutes of EPL football.

Cheers. Thanks in advance.

I’ve seen him take the ball and play in tight spaces, I’ve seen him play on the half turn, he’s can play short and long and I’ve seen him play with pace. He’s a quality player, I will agree there’s no evidence to show he’s fit and able.

Danieljwaterhouse wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:08 am

McNeil and Cork play different roles. Cork is our CDM, he does screen the back four when there’s a second ball, but when he’s in a 50/50 60/40 40/60 situation he gets bumped off the ball. This isn’t just other CM monsters it’s by Rashford, Martial, Almerion, etc.

Players drop deep off Tarks to collect the ball and Cork cannot compete.

When I watch Cork (because we all see different things) he takes the ball flat footed, this gets him closed down and then is forced to feed it to a FB who then either hoof a channel or play it back inside to Tarks/Mee who play the diagonal to Wood. I don’t see Cork carrying through and creating space.

Cork was good enough, but the midfield game has changed, we need to adapt to be effective. Play Cork in a three and we might see something different.

I feel we need Drinkwater Westwood and McNeil in there to compete and also encourage Tarks to carry into there when we have the ball to create overloads.

Barnes needs to have a few games as impact sub and play Wood up top flanked by JRod and JBG

I think the flaw in the "Cork is too lightweight to play in a midfield 2" argument is the evidence of results - we've used 4-4-2 almost exclusively during 2019 (during which Cork has been ever present) and accumulated 52 points in the year, which is a quite exceptional result for a team of our standing.

He does a great job - he's the midfielder who does the unsung stuff, winning headers, filling in gaps in front of the back four, making blocks, nicking the ball off the toe of an opponent. Drinkwater is an excellent player, but whilst Cork has undoubted limitations (range of passing most obviously) a Drinkwater/Westwood partnership would leave us a lot more open (and we'd miss Cork's ability to win second balls in the air for a start).

The idea he gets bumped off the ball is one I'm also unconvinced by. I doubt any opposition manager would ever describe our midfield 2 as being lightweight or capable of being bullied. It is true though that Cork is not a power player (we can't afford them), and so when he's exposed to players running at pace he drops off them. But that's not exactly unusual in a holding midfield player.

Very much the sort of player you only fully appreciate when he's missing.

Danieljwaterhouse wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:15 am

I’ve seen him take the ball and play in tight spaces, I’ve seen him play on the half turn, he’s can play short and long and I’ve seen him play with pace. He’s a quality player, I will agree there’s no evidence to show he’s fit and able.

Thanks for your reply. I need to watch the game more carefully as I didn't see any of that vs Man City recently. It seemed to me that Man City were completely controlling the midfield and that Drinky was almost a complete passenger. Although I did see him foul the keeper after Burnley's first corner.

Given this array of abilities that you have detected, can you explain why vs Manchester City he had the lowest pass completion rate out of the outfielders from both teams apart from Chris Wood? Maybe as Sean has suggested just not match sharp?