I think it is. Several incidents today in the Premier League games coupled with those from yesterday.

The decisions in the Liverpool and Citeh games today have been laughable.

And Norwich. And all three decisions went in favour of big clubs........

Wait until you see the goals in the Citeh v Sheff Utd game!

Football should all be about the joy of scoring a goal, yet we have a situation where a set of d!cks are currently trying to find out everyway possible to find fault with goals being scored

It's sh!te is this VAR

I think it might be the most controversial weekend in terms of the amount of decisions being overturned.

Many of these have been offside which is supposed to be the most objective but when it is as tight as some of these decisions have been I'm not sure who is benefitting.

With regards to killing celebrations, I don't see how any form of VAR can exist which won't kill this. That must have been one of the discussion points before it was first introduced though.

Given the money involved, especially around promotion or relegation, would you rather have correct decisions or get relegated on the back of scrapping it to allow fans to celebrate.

The powers that be will soon get rid of it, when they come to realise that their precious product is being damaged.

I can honestly see VAR being a one season wonder.

fidelcastro wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 29, 2019 11:51 pm

The powers that be will soon get rid of it, when they come to realise that their precious product is being damaged.

I can honestly see VAR being a one season wonder.

It won't.

They'll make their "new technology" excuses and come August, it'll still be there.

Row Z wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 29, 2019 11:47 pm

I think it might be the most controversial weekend in terms of the amount of decisions being overturned.

Many of these have been offside which is supposed to be the most objective but when it is as tight as some of these decisions have been I'm not sure who is benefitting.

With regards to killing celebrations, I don't see how any form of VAR can exist which won't kill this. That must have been one of the discussion points before it was first introduced though.

Given the money involved, especially around promotion or relegation, would you rather have correct decisions or get relegated on the back of scrapping it to allow fans to celebrate.

As far as killing celebrations goes, they could help a lot by going back to the old offside rule where "level" meant onside. now, the rule appears to be "there is no such thing as level" - and they take that to the nth degree by deciding that where it's too close to call, they'll just guess.

What's the point of the rule that disallowed the Wolves goal? What they are saying is that they don't know whether he was offside or not when the ball was played, but at the nearest moment we've got to where the ball was played he was probably half an inch offside, so yippee! another triumph for VAR, we can disallow another goal which would have been perfectly legal last year because the player was level.

As far as offside goes, if they would only stop using it as a tool to reduce the number of goals scored, and instead use it as a tool to correct mistakes, it would be vastly better. Thirty years ago the law was changed to allow "level" to be onside, and it was specifically for the purpose of giving the forward a bit of an edge and producing more goals. The current VAR men have looked at that policy and decided it stinks - they are doing their damnedest to ensure fewer goals. I think it's probably because they're stupid and unimaginative rather than deliberately trying to damage the game, but either way they are menaces.

It is here to stay and will have other additions made in the future which will see the ARs disappear to be replaced by technology.
If the referee shortage at lower levels throughout the country persists they may have to push things even further ---sadly!

tarkys_ears wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 29, 2019 11:53 pm

It won't.

They'll make their "new technology" excuses and come August, it'll still be there.

It can't still be classed as new technology after a full season, surely?

As I said though, if the 'Premier League' product is even remotely viewed to be damaged, for example, more people cancelling their TV subscriptions, then they'll get rid. Money trumps everything else these days!

The thing is, how do they allow a greater tolerance to onside versus offside?

Do they allow a 30cm buffer beyond the last defender to remove the potential inadequacy of current technology? If they do that then we will still get it where a players foot is 31cm behind the last defender and people still moan.

If they say look at it with the naked eye rather than draw a line then this again is open to the VARs interpretation and many won't agree.

Is it easier to have daylight between an attacker and a defender? But then I'm sure arms and legs could overlap yet still have daylight between.

It's a minefield that didn't previously exist.

Row Z wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:06 am

The thing is, how do they allow a greater tolerance to onside versus offside?

Do they allow a 30cm buffer beyond the last defender to remove the potential inadequacy of current technology? If they do that then we will still get it where a players foot is 31cm behind the last defender and people still moan.

If they say look at it with the naked eye rather than draw a line then this again is open to the VARs interpretation and many won't agree.

Is it easier to have daylight between an attacker and a defender? But then I'm sure arms and legs could overlap yet still have daylight between.

It's a minefield that didn't previously exist.

They do it by telling the linesman that the rule hasn't changed and to judge by the naked eye. Which is all they have got. Then they look at the freeze frame and ask themselves "Is the linesman wrong?". If yes, change it; if no, don't change it; if not sure, don't change it. The odd toenail and armpit don't matter, just as they don't matter in the Olympics. If the torsos are broadly speaking level, then they are level.

Why is it still being bloody tweaked and still visibly getting worse on week by week basis when we are halfway through a bloody season!!!!


We have learnt this week why pitchside screens aren't being used. Because it's a directive from one of the most wet lettuce spineless arrogant refs to ply his trade at top flight football in this country. His directives mirror his then onfield performances

There was also the Shelvey goal earlier in the season when all players stopped as the linesman flagged for offside, Shelvey poked it in more in frustration and yet VAR gave it as he was onside.

The assistant referees often seem unsure if to flag or not under current rules, understandably so when onside calls incorrectly flagged could stop goals.

My VAR solution

20 seconds per review, no dicking around (even have the countdown music playing to keep the crowd involved). No need for lines and looking for things that aren't there.

It then stays with the onfield decision

It really should be that simple

THEWELLERNUT70 wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 29, 2019 7:19 pm

I think it is. Several incidents today in the Premier League games coupled with those from yesterday.

The decisions in the Liverpool and Citeh games today have been laughable.

by a mile

THEWELLERNUT70 wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:50 am

My VAR solution

20 seconds per review, no dicking around (even have the countdown music playing to keep the crowd involved). No need for lines and looking for things that aren't there.

It then stays with the onfield decision

It really should be that simple

I'd give them 2 replays and that's it, no lines allowed - clear and obvious or **** off

Best weekend for VAR this weekend I think. When VAR was rubbish they said it was a 7/10, now it’s complete sh1te I presume it’s got to be close to a 10/10. VAR will only get worse. I’m sure sky and BT love VAR in its current form as it causes controversy which they love and is marketable. When most switch off at half or full time now people will stay tuned to see what the pundits think of VAR and will therefore watch the adverts. In the Far East they may watch a premier league game over a la liga game as they want to see VAR do something stupid as it makes TV more exciting. That’s what football is to most who watch the games, a TV show and if a TV show isn’t exciting enough people will watch something else. It’s all about money, and if sky, BT, Amazon and the foreign TV companies in America and the Far East like VAR for them reasons then it stays and stays as it currently is. That’s what football is and it will only get worse. Having a VAR that works is too simple and doesn’t make extra revenue.

I think that VAR could work if they used it to its full potential. For example as everything is derived from data like the lines in the offside decisions they could simply say that's the line and give a +100mm (around 4 inch in old money) error zone, at which point the return to the ref would be instant like goal line technology rather than waiting to review by a studio ref, and thus returning back the celebrations, and also the benefit to the attacker, it would also stop any could be couldn't be offside claims as if the player is 101mm over the line than he is well offside. I just think they have gone the technology route which is all about finite data but then not thought out of the box as its human beings playing the game and not mechanical machines so we don't need a finite return, just a margin of error to add to the calculation made within that data.

ClaretAL wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:23 am

I think that VAR could work if they used it to its full potential. For example as everything is derived from data like the lines in the offside decisions they could simply say that's the line and give a +100mm (around 4 inch in old money) error zone, at which point the return to the ref would be instant like goal line technology rather than waiting to review by a studio ref, and thus returning back the celebrations, and also the benefit to the attacker, it would also stop any could be couldn't be offside claims as if the player is 101mm over the line than he is well offside. I just think they have gone the technology route which is all about finite data but then not thought out of the box as its human beings playing the game and not mechanical machines so we don't need a finite return, just a margin of error to add to the calculation made within that data.

In other words use common sense. Which, lets face it our crop of officials are very low on.

It's here to stay because it makes it makes it better for the TV neutral. It adds another level to the pantomime that is Premier League football.
It's horrible when you're there at the game, but that isn't who football is for anymore.

We all need to pray that we go down this season, that's the only way to get rid of it..

Vegas Claret wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:17 am

I'd give them 2 replays and that's it, no lines allowed - clear and obvious or **** off

I've said this all along - If it’s taking 2/3 minutes to decide if a players big toe is offside, and only then by zooming into the picture x1000 then it can’t be clear & obvious

If VAR is here to stay then maybe the offside rule needs to be tweaked so if any part of the attackers body is onside when they freeze frame and show the line it's not offside.

The solution seems easy - reinforce the ref as the person running the game. VAR ref tells him in his earpiece “I think you should look at that one” but instead of the VAR guy doing it the ref will do it instead, a quick look at the pitch-side monitor, without the use of lines, and it the ref agrees he has made a clear and obvious error he reverses it. Without lines it would be impossible for these armpit offsides to be given under VAR unless the assistant had flagged.

That would prove little different to current televised games where Sky can show freeze frames and debate if the ref got it right. It just gives the ref a little help in making sure he (or his assistants) got it right.

I was watching the game on BEIN and Andy Gray made an excellent point that VAR weren't even checking for the offside the managed to conjure up initially, they were looking at offside in the box with people running back out

Should be used for the clear and obvious errors only.

Totally ruining the game and most people seem to be in agreement. I can understand the idea with black and white offside decisions and I’ve previously been in favour of this but no longer.

Whenever a goal is scored the VAR is trudging through replays of the goal in desperation for something to find which could disallow the goal. It’s totally against the spirit of the game.

In terms of offsides, I genuinely can’t believe that there are so many goals scored where there is an offside call with only millimetres in it. It seems like the VAR is manufacturing a situation where the lines drawn are almost overlapping. It’s almost like the line for the defender is drawn and then the VAR is desperate to find a body part that is ahead of this line. How on earth they can judge where a shoulder starts and the arm ends for example is beyond me.

If they persist with this I would prefer to see one technician (doesn’t have to be a qualified official) draw the line for the defender and another technician completely independently draw the line for the attacker. Then press a button and the two lines overlap and a decision is made automatically.

A wise man said VAR won't work if it takes away more than it gives.

VAR would work so much better for offsides if the old rule of daylight between the last defender and attacker as it used to be.

I go to football to watch a football match not for a lesson in mathematics.

elwaclaret wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:05 pm

VAR would work so much better for offsides if the old rule of daylight between the last defender and attacker as it used to be.

I go to football to watch a football match not for a lesson in mathematics.

The thing that needed solving was an example like Wood’s goal at Watford last season. Unfortunately they’d start faffing with the daylight using technology. I don’t see the technology going but they need to tweak the rule in some way.

Players and managers like it when it rules in their favour then hate it when it rules against them (and I'm pretty sure that equates to all supporters)
Not seen all of this weekend's incidents but, for me, the two decisions at Anfield were correct (and I can't stand Liverpool )

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:01 am

Totally ruining the game and most people seem to be in agreement. I can understand the idea with black and white offside decisions and I’ve previously been in favour of this but no longer.

Whenever a goal is scored the VAR is trudging through replays of the goal in desperation for something to find which could disallow the goal. It’s totally against the spirit of the game.

In terms of offsides, I genuinely can’t believe that there are so many goals scored where there is an offside call with only millimetres in it. It seems like the VAR is manufacturing a situation where the lines drawn are almost overlapping. It’s almost like the line for the defender is drawn and then the VAR is desperate to find a body part that is ahead of this line. How on earth they can judge where a shoulder starts and the arm ends for example is beyond me.

If they persist with this I would prefer to see one technician (doesn’t have to be a qualified official) draw the line for the defender and another technician completely independently draw the line for the attacker. Then press a button and the two lines overlap and a decision is made automatically.

Even with this, the technology supporting the decision isn't fit for purpose. The frame rate on the cameras can't detect the precise moment that the ball is touched by a player. In the time it takes the ball to arrive at and subsequently leave someone's foot with a defender travelling one way and the attacker travelling the other, it's perfectly possible for their armpit/arse/toe of their size 14 boot to move to an offside position. VAR is manufacturing precision when the technology can't support it so these cock-hair width offsides are idiotic.

Sproggy wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:38 pm

Even with this, the technology supporting the decision isn't fit for purpose. The frame rate on the cameras can't detect the precise moment that the ball is touched by a player. In the time it takes the ball to arrive at and subsequently leave someone's foot with a defender travelling one way and the attacker travelling the other, it's perfectly possible for their armpit/arse/toe of their size 14 boot to move to an offside position. VAR is manufacturing precision when the technology can't support it so these cock-hair width offsides are idiotic.

Yes I agree. But as I’ve mentioned on posts in the past even the goal line technology won’t be accurate to the degree that decisions are made on. There will always be a margin of error and we need to accept that if we are to use technology to rule offside decisions. Whether we use the technology at all or how we use it differently is another matter.

elwaclaret wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:05 pm

VAR would work so much better for offsides if the old rule of daylight between the last defender and attacker as it used to be.

I go to football to watch a football match not for a lesson in mathematics.

How do you see daylight from a camera that is looking down at the pitch at an angle? How is daylight defined? I hear this all of the time but still don’t understand what this means or how it will be judged.

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:16 pm

Yes I agree. But as I’ve mentioned on posts in the past even the goal line technology won’t be accurate to the degree that decisions are made on. There will always be a margin of error and we need to accept that if we are to use technology to rule offside decisions. Whether we use the technology at all or how we use it differently is another matter.

I think the point is that if they are deliberately using this technology because they want to reduce the number of goals scored, which is a stupid thing to do in any case, they ought at least to make sure they are only disallowing goals that under the new rules are offside. As it is, they're disallowing goals which are legal even under the new rules. One of them being (probably) Chris Wood's header against West Ham which was judged offside based on a photo taken after the ball was kicked.

THEWELLERNUT70 wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 29, 2019 7:25 pm

Football should all be about the joy of scoring a goal, yet we have a situation where a set of d!cks are currently trying to find out everyway possible to find fault with goals being scored

Its been that way since 1992 with pundits etc

'Defender shouldve tackled him'
'Keeper shouldve saved it'
'Shouldnt be in so much space'

Absolute nonsense.

VAR is a joke. Even if it works it shouldnt be enforced. Game killing invention.

Its only modern, mard arse fans that like it.

Never wanted it and its proved to be the farce i knew it would be.

fidelcastro wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:01 am

It can't still be classed as new technology after a full season, surely?

As I said though, if the 'Premier League' product is even remotely viewed to be damaged, for example, more people cancelling their TV subscriptions, then they'll get rid. Money trumps everything else these days!

We can only hope. But tv wont be afffected as theyre making it mainly for that audience. Not us idiots in the ground. Its drama and suspense for the tv viewer.

That’s rubbish. None of my mates go to matches but they all agree it’s not been good for the game.

Winstonswhite wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:22 pm

That’s rubbish. None of my mates go to matches but they all agree it’s not been good for the game.

Indeed. I can't believe anyone still thinks it's been a force for good.

Ironically, the man who could (unofficially) pull the plug on this farce is none other than Rupert Murdoch!

THEWELLERNUT70 wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 29, 2019 7:19 pm

I think it is. Several incidents today in the Premier League games coupled with those from yesterday.

The decisions in the Liverpool and Citeh games today have been laughable.

What precisely was wrong with the decisions in the Liverpool game? Just wondering.

corporal jones wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:58 pm

What precisely was wrong with the decisions in the Liverpool game? Just wondering.

Do you really think the wolves 'goal' deserved to be given as offside?

Also, there's certainly more than a hint of handball in the Liverpool goal that stood (certainly in the build up) but not by Lallana.

Would a club like us be given the benefit of the doubt in a situation like that? I seriously doubt it!

cricketfieldclarets wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:56 pm

Its been that way since 1992 with pundits etc

'Defender shouldve tackled him'
'Keeper shouldve saved it'
'Shouldnt be in so much space'

Absolute nonsense.

Yes, but to be fair, as spectators we have an option as to whether we turn on/tune in and listen to, or take any notice of those dicks. Their ovcer analysis doesn't disrupt the flow of the game.

VAR is forced upon us and it doesn't nothing to aid or improve the game. It's been a disaster.

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:17 pm

How do you see daylight from a camera that is looking down at the pitch at an angle? How is daylight defined? I hear this all of the time but still don’t understand what this means or how it will be judged.

Clearly it has been made into an exact science, which is a nonsense in sport anyway. If more than half of an attacker is visible on stop motion it is offside. There should also be a ten second limited. The Var assistant to call decisions, just as a linesmen does... when all three marry no need for further VAR investigation. When called upon clear and intentional review is time limited ensuring a ‘Clear’ and just as importantly quick decision.

corporal jones wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:58 pm

What precisely was wrong with the decisions in the Liverpool game? Just wondering.

VVD handles the ball immediately prior to playing the ball forward to Lallana for the goal

I’d gladly bin the whole thing. I’m not getting another ST if it’s still used in its current form.

Keep for blatant f**k ups by the ref if absolutely necessary, let him quickly check a monitor for 10 seconds. No lines, dotted or otherwise.

It’s not an exact science anyway, it’s just a game played on a muddy field for entertainment. Nobody dies if a goal is given after an armpit strays offside on the particular frame some geek in a cabin is looking at.

NottsClaret wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:34 pm

I’d gladly bin the whole thing. I’m not getting another ST if it’s still used in its current form.

Keep for blatant f**k ups by the ref if absolutely necessary, let him quickly check a monitor for 10 seconds. No lines, dotted or otherwise.

It’s not an exact science anyway, it’s just a game played on a muddy field for entertainment. Nobody dies if a goal is given after an armpit strays offside on the particular frame some geek in a cabin is looking at.

For all his faults, this was exactly what Sepp Blatter was saying for years (decades) as to why he wasn’t pushing for VAR

Winstonswhite wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:11 pm

For all his faults, this was exactly what Sepp Blatter was saying for years (decades) as to why he wasn’t pushing for VAR

You are right, but his other faults were pretty huge.

I always thought it would be an invisible eyepiece only getting involved in cases of blatant human error. So perhaps a goal every couple of weeks chalked off for cheating.... I can go to the cinema to cheer a screen.

If no one saw the replays until Match of the day of streamed into games... it would also add massively to those programmes showing the contentious stuff, and the fans would still be able to debate decisions without knowing if those decisions had been under review or not.

Problems you get when you put a tecky in charge of sport. You get a clinical analysis programme, not a football match.